What can you do with a problem like a Blaster?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-05 15:04 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Blasters need significant crowd control abilities IMO. There's really no justification for denying Blasters decent CC. Controllers and Dominators have overwhelming crowd control that makes both ATs extremely survivable.
I also think Blasters should have some 'behind the scenes' work. I've often wished their defense/resist buff mod was something crazy like 2.0. Since they don't have the powers to leverage it like the melees, all it would do is supercharge powers like Tough/Weave and the epic shields.
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By taking the average mitigation of a scrapper or other AT and comparing it with the low to zero mitigation most blast sets have?
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Originally Posted by Alekhine
Exactly how do you equate this 'x times tougher' you are talking about?
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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In that case, you are missing a lot.
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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
By taking the average mitigation of a scrapper or other AT and comparing it with the low to zero mitigation most blast sets have?
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Come on then out with it. What is a lot that he's supposedly missing?
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Originally Posted by Alekhine
In that case, you are missing a lot.
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Curiosity, are people ignoring EPPs [and IO sets/uniques, ATOs, Accolade/Temp Powers] (for mitigation tools) or are they just not significant enough to matter?
Also how are we figuring damage comparisons between Blasters and everyone else; Doms, I can see since they both have offensive Primaries and Secondaries but I'm honestly at a loss when I see comparisons to non-pet ATs that have half the number of offensive tools (please clarify this for me).
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Hey now, don't try to frame me as the blaster champion.... I personally don't enjoy the AT at all... I've never understood why someone would play a blaster.. My point was that my lack of understanding doesn't disqualify them as a viable AT. They may, or may not be a viable AT, but my lack of understanding one way or the other isn't proof at all...|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Madadh: The next time you find yourself in a discussion where the other person's trumpeting the joy of playing a blaster, ask questions. ........
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I much prefer scrappers and tanks to brutes in general, but my preference certainly isn't proof that brutes are a flawed at. I vastly prefer defenders to corruptors but again, my preference is no proof at all.
I prefer VEATs to HEATs, too, but I'd not infer from that anything about the value of warshades vs widows, either way. My preferences, or other peoples, alone isn't proof of anything. So I'll not overvalue my preferences, nor undervalue other peoples preferences.. If you wish to prove an ATs worth, or disprove it, you'll have to do it in a vacuum to convince me.
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Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Personally I don't see why Crab Spiders aren't more popular. They can to be what a blaster ought to. You can have decent defense, status protection, and solid ranged offense. Yes, they do less than high end blaster builds, but they also live through things.
Blasters should either get some real forms of damage mitigation or do stupidly high quantities of damage. Anything else is unbalanced. |
Probably because many players don't like shopping where Doctor Octopus buys his clothes...
Seriously...at this point I'd try almost anything to try and make them more playable. Lots of Beta time...whatever.
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Ok, the easy answer to that is. If is it being based that 'x times tougher' = x times the survivability. There has to be more to that than the simple CoH buzzword of mitigation. |
Originally Posted by Lucky666
Come on then out with it. What is a lot that he's supposedly missing?
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I am not seeing this 6-10 times the death rate for blasters.
Not for myself, or for people I normally team with. Just last night, I was on a team with a relatively new player, that was being a blaster. After running many +4/x8 missions, I think this player may have died 3 times. And, I am talking about someone that has played 3 months max, that I had never teamed with before.
I still think that this 'broken' word is being exaggerated.
Or there are some unrealistic expectations of what blasters should be.
If you are expecting a blaster to solo a +4/x8 map. Be able to stand there, in a group, go get a sammich, come back still living. Perhaps the blaster AT is not for you. Yes, I realize that was probably an exaggeration on my own part.
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Originally Posted by Alekhine
Ok, the easy answer to that is. If is it being based that 'x times tougher' = x times the survivability. There has to be more to that than the simple CoH buzzword of mitigation.
I am not seeing this 6-10 times the death rate for blasters. Not for myself, or for people I normally team with. Just last night, I was on a team with a relatively new player, that was being a blaster. After running many +4/x8 missions, I think this player may have died 3 times. And, I am talking about someone that has played 3 months max, that I had never teamed with before. I still think that this 'broken' word is being exaggerated. Or there are some unrealistic expectations of what blasters should be. If you are expecting a blaster to solo a +4/x8 map. Be able to stand there, in a group, go get a sammich, come back still living. Perhaps the blaster AT is not for you. Yes, I realize that was probably an exaggeration on my own part. |
Seconding all this.
Look, there are some things that can be tweaked - snipes for all ATs that have them, adjusting nukes (I'd still prefer seeing Judgement adjusted downward in non-Incarnate content.)
But as far as what I can do with a "problem" like a blaster?
I can play it, enjoy it, and not give a tinker's damn about what any other AT or player is doing. I'm not trying to "beat" them, after all. It's not a competition.
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You may simply have good twitch reflexes which may not be the case for a majority of the player base.|
Originally Posted by Alekhine
Exactly how do you equate this 'x times tougher' you are talking about?
I've said in another thread, that sure, some tweaks could be made. But, your posts seems to be hyperbole. Either that, or I have had a history of some very good RNG numbers. |
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Originally Posted by Alekhine
Also, this mez protection issue I am just not understanding. On most teams, it becomes a non-issue. Either by tank'age or buffage. If solo, you plan accordingly.
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I'm not sure that defiance 2.0 solved that problem as the blaster that I have that spent the highest ratio of time spent mezzed/time logged in was created AFTER D2.0. That tells me 2 things:
1) Defiance 2.0 is letting me stay alive longer in the mezzed state.
2) I'm spending FAR too much time in game locked out of all but 3 of my powers.
Let's face it. This is a game we are talking about and leveling to 50 so that you can spend an unacceptable amount of time playing at an effective level of 2 while ALL other ATs are either virtually mezz proof or can avoid a large percentage of mez in the first place is NOT fun.
Depending on how the numbers work out I could have spent 12% (or more) of my actual combat time on my blasters in a mezzed state. (Once you factor out time spent doing other activities and time spent taking steps other ATs do not need to use or need to use much less often)
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Originally Posted by Alekhine
Look folks, I don't want to simply face-roll across my keyboard to play my blasters. In every tf, trial I have completed with my blasters I have done so without death. 100% of the time? No, of course not. But, I have been there to see scrappers, brutes and tanks die. All while I am still blasting away. I can say for sure, I do not die 6 times more often than those ATs. And, that is totally not from standing in the background, watching the carnage.
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Originally Posted by Alekhine
So yeah, certain tweaks made to blasters? Sure.
But, I am seeing a lot of exaggeration to this 'broken' claim to blasters. |
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Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
Curiosity, are people ignoring EPPs [and IO sets/uniques, ATOs, Accolade/Temp Powers] (for mitigation tools) or are they just not significant enough to matter?
Also how are we figuring damage comparisons between Blasters and everyone else; Doms, I can see since they both have offensive Primaries and Secondaries but I'm honestly at a loss when I see comparisons to non-pet ATs that have half the number of offensive tools (please clarify this for me). |
My wife has 1 year less CoH experience than I do. She plays on +4/x8. Her brute is IO'd for additional mitigation. In the last 20 times we've run this map she has died a total of 0 times (I've died 5 in 20). She has T3 Alpha Cardiac, T2 Void Judgement, and T1 Reactive interface.
I can clarify why she is faster with "1/2 the number of offensive tools"..... recharge. She can slot more global recharge than I can without sacrificing mitigation. The 2 toons have about the same amount of endurance draw. She can use all her best offensive tools seamlessly because of additional global recharge. If I could afford the same amount of recharge she would still do better because I am all ready using all of my best offensive tools as fast as I can activate them. I have attacks sitting in my power tray that only get used if my recharge gets debuffed because I have TOO MANY attacks available and little to nothing in the way of utility powers to choose from. What it boils down to is that she has 2 power sets to use and I have 1 because I can't animate my powers fast enough to use them all before something better is recharged and so I'm only getting to use 1/2 my powers most of the time.
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Originally Posted by Madadh
Hey now, don't try to frame me as the blaster champion.... I personally don't enjoy the AT at all... I've never understood why someone would play a blaster.. My point was that my lack of understanding doesn't disqualify them as a viable AT. They may, or may not be a viable AT, but my lack of understanding one way or the other isn't proof at all...
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I can play it, enjoy it, and not give a tinker's damn about what any other AT or player is doing. I'm not trying to "beat" them, after all. It's not a competition.
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
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I'm waiting for a reason other than "It isn't X AT" to revamp the AT as a whole. And most of the arguments end up sounding exactly like that. I mean, hell, EG wants them to be Dominators. Some people seem to want them to be VEATs. You're busy comparing your Blaster to your wife's Brute. Well, guess what, you're not a Brute. You play differently. That's kind of the point of different ATs. Do I take longer to finish a map? Who cares? I'm managing spawns. It's how I survive as a blaster. So what if they're not "monkey pound keyboard" easymode? Not everything should be. If mezzes are so bad to you, use the tools at your disposal, team, or play a different AT.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I'm so glad you can enjoy it..... but how about we let the devs revamp the blaster AT so that most of the rest of the players in the game can enjoy them too instead of having them abandoned more often than any other AT?
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I swear, it seems the forums in general just want everything to be a grey AT. Everything gets the same resists, damage, damage scale, recharge. Tanks, scrappers, stalkers and brutes can get pets and major ranged AOEs from level 1. Squishiess get melee level mez protection and defenses - and what the hell, let's throw team buffs in there, too. Everyone gets Hide level stealth with bonus damage. Oh, and plenty of control, too, can't let the controllers and doms have a niche. Everyone gets controllable pets with bodyguard. Let's reduce that AT icon to the worthlessness of the origin icon. Would everyone be happy then? Because that's the direction these freaking "OMG, X AT is worthless, it needs to be revamped!" discussions go - with *every* *single* AT. (And yes, I did basically just describe the result of Incarnate powers. Part of why I don't particularly care for the system.)
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See I view this as part of the problem here. This revamp that I keep hearing about survivability and nothing more. People have posted they want blasters to have the survivability of scrappers. Others want them to have the controls of a dominator. You are comparing times of farming a map with a brute? Where does this stop? There are other ATs and powersets within, that won't farm as well either.| Tweaks are not enough. D2.0 was a "tweak" and it wasn't enough. The blaster AT as a whole needs a serious revamp. |
Let me ask this, even if all ATs and powersets could be balanced and equal. Should they be?
I don't think homogenized ATs is the answer here.
If you want mez protection and more built in survivability, there are multiple of ATs you can choose from already!
My main two characters I play are a blaster and defender. Although, I have multiple tanks, brutes, and scrappers at 50 also. I don't play them much at all. Do you know why? I enjoy having to look at my health bar sometimes! Surviving things you are not 'supposed' to is fun! Sure, there are times I log in a more 'durable' character and just throat punch. To me though, that gets boring quickly. I'd say 95% of the time, I am on a blaster or defender. It seems to me that a more 'squishy' character has to think more proactively. I see that attack coming, is it going to kill me? Or can I pop a green, and keep going? YES! I will use inspirations! Even a breakfree if needed! Sometimes breaking LoS before it's too late! Movement and stuff!
I don't care about the spreadsheets, numbers, and the human calculators of the forums. This playstyle is fun for me! You take this so called 'broken' blaster and give it the inherent survivability of a scrapper, I'm bored to death. You give me controls of a dominator, why would I just not play a dominator? I clear a farm map 15 seconds slower than a brute? 15 seconds? Who gives a poo!
Wanna take a revamp look at the snipes? Go for it, they are outdated in today's game.
Perhaps a reasonable (read not massive) damage buff? Ok.
Maybe take a look at the t9 crashes? Alright, though I'm not sure I am in favor of all crashless nukes.
But mez protection? Get outa here! :P
I don't agree with the characterization of Defenders as a highly functional AT earlier in this thread. Outside of Sonic Attack the Defender AT might as well not exist. The AT has a direct clone that outperforms it in nearly every way. I'm pretty tolerant of low-ish performance, but when one AT is a direct copy of another except mostly just worse it raises my eyebrows. Defenders and Corruptors even share the same APPs and PPPs. Something really needs to happen to seperate those 2 ATs. Even if Blasters have more trouble overall at least there isn't a direct clone of them or any need to ask the question "Defender or Corruptor?" (with the answer almost always being Corruptor).
Having to fish for Defender advantages, like marginally better healing or shielding values or the ability to soft cap somewhat easier (but still not really easily in most cases) just leaves the AT looking silly. It would be fine if Corruptors didn't exist... but they do.
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Heh. I'd dare say it is. "The Best Farmer" thread is an example of the imbalance of ATs. How can an AT, do so much damage, so easily, with so little risk, while an AT that should be (by definition) doing more damage, is pretty much a joke.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Seconding all this.
Look, there are some things that can be tweaked - snipes for all ATs that have them, adjusting nukes (I'd still prefer seeing Judgement adjusted downward in non-Incarnate content.) But as far as what I can do with a "problem" like a blaster? I can play it, enjoy it, and not give a tinker's damn about what any other AT or player is doing. I'm not trying to "beat" them, after all. It's not a competition. |
Snipes, goodgreef. Please define, if you can, how changing them would make the AT any better.
And Nukes. Burn is an easy example of an 8 second recharge PBAoE crashless nuke while you have defense, resist and mez protection.
Some people on the forums seem to like to dismiss the disparity that blasters have with other ATs to suit their own logic. Would ya like some more coolaid with that round of BS? Are we playing the same (end) game?
Blasters have been kicked to the curb.
@MARTy McFly
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This.. This is what is what I want to scream every time I come to the blaster boards now..|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I'm waiting for a reason other than "It isn't X AT" to revamp the AT as a whole. And most of the arguments end up sounding exactly like that. I mean, hell, EG wants them to be Dominators. Some people seem to want them to be VEATs. You're busy comparing your Blaster to your wife's Brute. Well, guess what, you're not a Brute. You play differently. That's kind of the point of different ATs. Do I take longer to finish a map? Who cares? I'm managing spawns. It's how I survive as a blaster. So what if they're not "monkey pound keyboard" easymode? Not everything should be. If mezzes are so bad to you, use the tools at your disposal, team, or play a different AT.
I swear, it seems the forums in general just want everything to be a grey AT. Everything gets the same resists, damage, damage scale, recharge. Tanks, scrappers, stalkers and brutes can get pets and major ranged AOEs from level 1. Squishiess get melee level mez protection and defenses - and what the hell, let's throw team buffs in there, too. Everyone gets Hide level stealth with bonus damage. Oh, and plenty of control, too, can't let the controllers and doms have a niche. Everyone gets controllable pets with bodyguard. Let's reduce that AT icon to the worthlessness of the origin icon. Would everyone be happy then? Because that's the direction these freaking "OMG, X AT is worthless, it needs to be revamped!" discussions go - with *every* *single* AT. |
Do blasters have some issues.. yes.. what I have been saying all along..
Fix Snipes so that they are worth a crap
Fix Nukes to be crashless and faster recharge like Rain of Arrows, Full Auto and Hail of Bullets
Fix Range in the sets to be equalized ( no more short range 40' blasts )
Make it so that ALL combinations allow for Build up and Aim ( some combinations do not allow for this )
Fix the Time Bomb and Gun Drone in devices..Give Targeting Drone a damage buff to make up for the fact there is no Build Up..
Energy's AoE suck... fix em..
Give the blaster a ranged damage multiplier increase.
It was said a while back that range is a blasters defense.. well fine.. they give me a small ranged defense buff.. or give me a stacking buff when I use my ranged attacks ( up to 10% ) to simulate that I am an expert in fighting from range..
the entire AT doesnt need a revamp because you cant solo on +4/X8 like a brute or scrapper... when did that become the standard for normal anyway
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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I agree. Lucky for me the only defender I've rolled in the last few years has been a Traps/Sonic. I still bring something to a team. Other than that, I go corr all the way.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I don't agree with the characterization of Defenders as a highly functional AT earlier in this thread. Outside of Sonic Attack the Defender AT might as well not exist. The AT has a direct clone that outperforms it in nearly every way. I'm pretty tolerant of low-ish performance, but when one AT is a direct copy of another except mostly just worse it raises my eyebrows. Defenders and Corruptors even share the same APPs and PPPs. Something really needs to happen to seperate those 2 ATs. Even if Blasters have more trouble overall at least there isn't a direct clone of them or any need to ask the question "Defender or Corruptor?" (with the answer almost always being Corruptor).
Having to fish for Defender advantages, like marginally better healing or shielding values or the ability to soft cap somewhat easier (but still not really easily in most cases) just leaves the AT looking silly. It would be fine if Corruptors didn't exist... but they do. |
@MARTy McFly
Because I'm bored and because I can't sleep and because my dentist appointment isn't until Friday (!!!!!!!!!)
, my position on fixing blasters. Tell me what you think...
Snipes
Affected Sets/Powers = Archery/Ranged Shot, Assault Rifle/Sniper Rifle, Beam Rifle/Penetrating Ray, Dark Blast/Moon Beam, Electric Blast/Zapp, Energy Blast/Sniper Blast, Fire Blast/Blazing Bolt, Psychic Blast/Psionic Lance, Radiation Blast/Proton Volley
Unaffected Powers = any Non-ranged exclusive sets
These powers will be opener blasts meant to do high damage at high cost. Snipes would remain interruptible when first used but have a high chance (75%) of granting Sniper Focus. Sniper Focus is simply a termed temp power granted by the snipes that will grant a trigger to use a shortened cast time similar to momentum.
Sniper's Focus will allow use of Snipe powers with the interrupt portion cut off as well as instantly recharge the Snipe. While under Sniper's Focus, the shorter power only grants a 25% chance of granting it again and recharging the Snipe instantly.
Utility Blasts
Affected Powers = the mezzing power of each blast set that currently does minor damage
Unaffected Sets = Beam Rifle (no mezzing power), Fire Blast (no mezzing power), Radiation Blast (it's mezzing power is a high damage attack)
These should be buffed to do as much or slightly more than a tier 2 blast and the cast times slightly adjusted lower.
If not add damage, then lower endurance and recharge so that it can be a viable tool for mitigation, better quality than what one would obtain from melee sets.
Nukes
Affected Powers/Sets = Dark Blast/Black Star, Electric Blast/Thunderous Blast, Energy Blast/Nova, Fire Blast/Inferno, Ice Blast/Blizzard, Psychic Blast/Psychic Wail, Radiation Blast/Atomic Blast, Sonic Blast/Dreadful Wail
Unaffected Sets = Archer, Assault Rifle, Beam Rifle, Dual Pistols
Using a Nuke should still crash your endurance (but we can oust the -recovery...or nix the extreme cost but keep the -recovery), but also comes with and advantage. Similar to how Hail of Bullets provides a slight buff to defense while activating, crashing Nukes could buff resistance (and cap resistance to its damage type) for 15-20sec after using.
Also, lower the recharge of these powers to 3 minutes.
Blaster Specific Changes
I'd have suggested a buff to Aim powers for them, basically giving them an Inner Light clone but that leaves sets without an Aim power in the dark. Instead, focusing on the secondary:
-Melee attacks. Significantly increase the recharge on melee attacks while equally boosting the effects (damage, END, secondary effect) very high.
-Secondary effects. Significantly boost mez chance and duration to counter the low mods and stilted capabilities native to Blaster.
-Tweak powers to provide greater utility...give caltrops a 25ft area and a 16 target cap, give touch of fear the same numbers as melee ToF and a chance of hitting 3 extra foes around them, make ice patch a wider radius, etc.
-Give Blasters more secondary sets. They don't all have to have extra melee or high mitigation but should definitely be compensated in areas for what it lacks.
Defiance could be added to:
-Adding scaling damage resists along with damage buffs with each attack.
-Add complete unsuppressing toggles for Blasters, meaning not only do their offensive toggles not shut off when mezzed, their defensive toggles do not suppress at all while mezzed.
-Along with all of the above, give Defiance a scaling Overpower on all single target mezzes. Defiance Overpower will have a heightened chance to add 1 mag of mez on bosses and above (40%) with lower chance on everything else (15%).
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You still haven't given me any idea what mitigation I am missing other than hiding behind a team, which any AT can do and stay alive.|
Originally Posted by Alekhine
Ok, the easy answer to that is. If is it being based that 'x times tougher' = x times the survivability. There has to be more to that than the simple CoH buzzword of mitigation.
I am not seeing this 6-10 times the death rate for blasters. Not for myself, or for people I normally team with. Just last night, I was on a team with a relatively new player, that was being a blaster. After running many +4/x8 missions, I think this player may have died 3 times. And, I am talking about someone that has played 3 months max, that I had never teamed with before. I still think that this 'broken' word is being exaggerated. Or there are some unrealistic expectations of what blasters should be. If you are expecting a blaster to solo a +4/x8 map. Be able to stand there, in a group, go get a sammich, come back still living. Perhaps the blaster AT is not for you. Yes, I realize that was probably an exaggeration on my own part. |
The bit you are missing is that because the blaster is too squishy to do anything particularly risky they wasted a lot of their potential damage by not being first to attack a mob. Or if they were then you had a good steamrolling team who destroyed the mob before the alpha came back, a great tank, or buffs/debuffs to keep the blaster alive.
Blaster powersets have very very few powers designed to keep them alive, I think scrappers are probably the AT they should be closest too (Both designed to be high dps classes) and blasters aren't in the same survivability league as scrappers. Even a regen who only takes the passives probably has more survivability that most blasters.
As for 6 times more survivable, which I am sure was a random number plucked out of the sky, the best a blaster can hope for is capped ranged or capped s/l, most scrappers can cap all positions which is immediately 3 times as survivable, then add in resists and higher hp and the gap widens quite easily quite quickly.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Revamp blaster secondaries to include some defence set powers instead of melee attacks...
It seems to me that the suggested changes to snipes and nukes are nice, but do nothing to address the fundamental problem: Corruptors have better secondaries.
I really should do something about this signature.
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You will be waiting forever then since performance (and thereby whether an AT underperforms or overperforms) is a comparison of the various ATs against the PVE environment in the hands of the total player base. Taking away comparisons removes the tools required to prove (or disprove) the argument.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I'm waiting for a reason other than "It isn't X AT" to revamp the AT as a whole. And most of the arguments end up sounding exactly like that. I mean, hell, EG wants them to be Dominators. Some people seem to want them to be VEATs. You're busy comparing your Blaster to your wife's Brute. Well, guess what, you're not a Brute. You play differently.
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You also appear not to have read the comparison. As the blaster player I "should" have the edge. I have more play experience, I have equivalent IOs, I have better versions of the incarnate powers, I have a higher ranged damage modifier, I have more total AoE. The blaster AT as a whole is supposed to have given up survivability for damage. In that case where is all this extra damage? Shouldn't I be completing the map MUCH quicker with the blaster?
The game's metric (and the devs proved that was the metric used when they introduced reward merits) is risk vs. reward. You need to tell me then why the blaster as an AT specifically is placed at more risk yet receives the same reward. Should not the blaster receive a higher reward for that greater risk? Shouldn't the blaster level MUCH faster when succeeding to make up for time and rewards lost due to more defeats?
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
That's kind of the point of different ATs. Do I take longer to finish a map? Who cares? I'm managing spawns. It's how I survive as a blaster. So what if they're not "monkey pound keyboard" easymode? Not everything should be. If mezzes are so bad to you, use the tools at your disposal, team, or play a different AT.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I swear, it seems the forums in general just want everything to be a grey AT. Everything gets the same resists, damage, damage scale, recharge. Tanks, scrappers, stalkers and brutes can get pets and major ranged AOEs from level 1. Squishiess get melee level mez protection and defenses - and what the hell, let's throw team buffs in there, too. Everyone gets Hide level stealth with bonus damage. Oh, and plenty of control, too, can't let the controllers and doms have a niche. Everyone gets controllable pets with bodyguard. Let's reduce that AT icon to the worthlessness of the origin icon. Would everyone be happy then? Because that's the direction these freaking "OMG, X AT is worthless, it needs to be revamped!" discussions go - with *every* *single* AT. (And yes, I did basically just describe the result of Incarnate powers. Part of why I don't particularly care for the system.)
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Originally Posted by Alekhine
See I view this as part of the problem here. This revamp that I keep hearing about survivability and nothing more. People have posted they want blasters to have the survivability of scrappers. Others want them to have the controls of a dominator. You are comparing times of farming a map with a brute? Where does this stop? There are other ATs and powersets within, that won't farm as well either.
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Originally Posted by Alekhine
Let me ask this, even if all ATs and powersets could be balanced and equal. Should they be?
I don't think homogenized ATs is the answer here. |
Let me put it to you a different way. If balance is supposed to be a comparison of damage output to survivability and we know that the blaster is the AT that is supposed to be the lowest on the survivability scale then the blaster should also be the highest on the damage output scale.
Now lets turn that around. The tank should then be the almost unkillable king of survival and they should do almost no damage what so ever to get that survivability. The Brute should then be doing slightly more damage for slightly less survivability and the scrapper should be a bit more damage yet for a bit less survivability. That is not even close to the way it works. Giving the blaster enough damage to make up for that comparable lack of survivability would mean the blaster would be one or 2 shotting bosses without Aim or Build up. Elite bosses would also be trivial taking perhaps a dozen shots to eliminate. Only an AV would be a challenge. Since adding the required amount of damage would be exceedingly broken the answer is to add survivability in one or more forms to bring balance to the blaster AT.
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Originally Posted by Alekhine
If you want mez protection and more built in survivability, there are multiple of ATs you can choose from already!
My main two characters I play are a blaster and defender. Although, I have multiple tanks, brutes, and scrappers at 50 also. I don't play them much at all. Do you know why? I enjoy having to look at my health bar sometimes! Surviving things you are not 'supposed' to is fun! Sure, there are times I log in a more 'durable' character and just throat punch. To me though, that gets boring quickly. I'd say 95% of the time, I am on a blaster or defender. It seems to me that a more 'squishy' character has to think more proactively. |
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| I see that attack coming, is it going to kill me? |
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| Or can I pop a green, and keep going? YES! |
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| I will use inspirations! |
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| Even a breakfree if needed! |
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| Sometimes breaking LoS before it's too late! Movement and stuff! |
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Originally Posted by Alekhine
I don't care about the spreadsheets, numbers, and the human calculators of the forums. This playstyle is fun for me! You take this so called 'broken' blaster and give it the inherent survivability of a scrapper, I'm bored to death. You give me controls of a dominator, why would I just not play a dominator? I clear a farm map 15 seconds slower than a brute? 15 seconds? Who gives a poo!
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Wanna take a revamp look at the snipes? Go for it, they are outdated in today's game. Perhaps a reasonable (read not massive) damage buff? Ok. |
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| Maybe take a look at the t9 crashes? Alright, though I'm not sure I am in favor of all crashless nukes. |
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| But mez protection? Get outa here! :P |
Gas! No, no gas. That niche belongs to all the other cars. You can't have any gas. Get outa here!
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To make another point about why the situation is the way it is is how the sets themselves are formed. The disparity is between melee sets and ranged sets...|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I'm waiting for a reason other than "It isn't X AT" to revamp the AT as a whole. And most of the arguments end up sounding exactly like that. I mean, hell, EG wants them to be Dominators. Some people seem to want them to be VEATs. You're busy comparing your Blaster to your wife's Brute. Well, guess what, you're not a Brute. You play differently. That's kind of the point of different ATs. Do I take longer to finish a map? Who cares? I'm managing spawns. It's how I survive as a blaster. So what if they're not "monkey pound keyboard" easymode? Not everything should be. If mezzes are so bad to you, use the tools at your disposal, team, or play a different AT.
I swear, it seems the forums in general just want everything to be a grey AT. Everything gets the same resists, damage, damage scale, recharge. Tanks, scrappers, stalkers and brutes can get pets and major ranged AOEs from level 1. Squishiess get melee level mez protection and defenses - and what the hell, let's throw team buffs in there, too. Everyone gets Hide level stealth with bonus damage. Oh, and plenty of control, too, can't let the controllers and doms have a niche. Everyone gets controllable pets with bodyguard. Let's reduce that AT icon to the worthlessness of the origin icon. Would everyone be happy then? Because that's the direction these freaking "OMG, X AT is worthless, it needs to be revamped!" discussions go - with *every* *single* AT. (And yes, I did basically just describe the result of Incarnate powers. Part of why I don't particularly care for the system.) |
For mitigation, the secondary effects tend to be balanced well enough however there are many (too many) outliers that put this difference in question. Sure, there are comparables like Energy Melee's Stun and Sonic's Screech as having the same stun effect, but you'll be hard pressed to find a whole ranged set whose 2ndary effect is hard mez to stack with it. Then melee sets have more outliers like Hand Clap, Fault and Touch of Fear that can provide superior mitigation or Clobber and Cobra Strike who can provide good control and superior damage. Ranged sets have their outliers too, like Siren's Song which provides superior mitigation and Atomic Burst that provides good control and superior damage, but there are far fewer outliers for ranged than for melee and on top of that, the outliers they do get are still not as good as the outliers available for melee.
And on top of all that, Blasters tend to get stilted for mitigation for no apparent reason...like, why is their version of Touch of Fear in Darkness Manipulation weaker than the melee version?
Then we can talk about damage. The melee sets tend to have sets modeled well for performing great at damage with tier 9s that aid their overall performance. They tend to have more high powered attacks with a cache of utility built into them, and bring out the full potential of them through bonuses, boosts and manipulating AI.
For ranged, the sets themselves are awkward, with different ranges, interruptible 'utility' attacks, low powered mezzes and a nuke that may crash you. Sure, Blasters (*possibly*) have melee ranged attacks to outfit a better chain of damage but there goes that awkwardness again with different ranges. Where Blasters are suppose to be aided by using range to their advantage, they are instead penalized by doing less damage for using that range.
Then there's buffs. Melees are gifted with a plethora of buffs built into their attacks like Dark Consumption, Soul Drain, Siphon Life, Parry, Defensive Sweep, etc. They also have damage buffs that gear them to higher regular sustained damage like Power Siphon, Follow Up and again Soul Drain.
Blast sets are not gifted with an equivalent of Soul Drain...or with a Parry and comparable powers to something like Siphon Life do less damage and heal for less. They're penalized because they are ranged.
It's because the set is ranged it gets penalized...but the thing is, melee gets *rewarded* for being melee ranged too...on top of the capabilities melee ranges can perform at...
AND Blasters are *further* penalized for secondary effect, mez duration, quality of effect, buff strength and so on just because they're blasters.
I'm not trying to say turn Blasters into [insert AT] but I can at least admit they get short changed for effects while having their mods cut short and penalized for available effects because they are 'the AT that's functionally armorless'.
It takes more than just fixing ranged sets in general...one needs to address the awkwardness of the AT as well...the odd ranged switches, the crashing or non-mid-battle attacks, the powers that just don't work properly like Time Bomb, any offensive aura that gets turned off at the drop of any mez, so on and so forth.
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Except, of course, that the wrong comparisons keep being made. "I can't play like a brute" .... well, you're not supposed to. Why do they have mez protection? Because they'd never get to 90% of the spawns in the game without it. |
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
You will be waiting forever then since performance (and thereby whether an AT underperforms or overperforms) is a comparison of the various ATs against the PVE environment in the hands of the total player base. Taking away comparisons removes the tools required to prove (or disprove) the argument.
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| You also appear not to have read the comparison. As the blaster player I "should" have the edge. I have more play experience, I have equivalent IOs, I have better versions of the incarnate powers, I have a higher ranged damage modifier, I have more total AoE. The blaster AT as a whole is supposed to have given up survivability for damage. In that case where is all this extra damage? Shouldn't I be completing the map MUCH quicker with the blaster? |
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| The game's metric (and the devs proved that was the metric used when they introduced reward merits) is risk vs. reward. |
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| That's odd. I thought the point of different ATs was to have different playstyles while having similar ability to succeed just different tools to do so. |
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| If you feel that everything else is "monkey pound keyboard" easymode then you should use the tools at your disposal, slot nothing but SOs |
And yet I don't seem to have these surviviability issues or other complaints. Perhaps because I'm not trying to say "My blaster has to do this like a brute!" or seeing myself in "competition" with other ATs for some silly reason.
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| I would agree with you except for one HUGE point that you are skipping. The Blaster niche - damage - HAS been given to every other AT when the devs decided that all ATs should have enough damage to solo. |
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| Since a blaster is supposed to give up every thing else for damage shouldn't the blaster be able to farm the fastest of all the ATs since farming essentially boils down to doing damage to defeat things quickly? |
Like I've said, sure there are little tweaks that can be done here and there, like on snipes and nukes (and I still feel Judgement needs to be severely dialed down in non-Incarnate content.) But that's vastly different than "the entire AT needs to be reworked." Especially when, again, the argument against it is basically "it's not X AT."
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You basically said that the blaster is 'ok' if you play at the easiest setting, which is true, but every other AT can scale the difficulty up higher with less effort.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Except, of course, that the wrong comparisons keep being made. "I can't play like a brute" .... well, you're not supposed to. Why do they have mez protection? Because they'd never get to 90% of the spawns in the game without it.
Not necessarily, no. And I don't care about IOs or Incarnate powers. Frankly, I think they're a bigger part of the problem with the game as a whole. You haven't paid attention, then. That's not the "metric" used. They've talked a few times already about having scuttled that. I do have a similar ability to succeed. I have yet to run into something any particular AT encounters and sees as impossible to finish, running base settings (no, saying "+4X8" is not base) that any other AT can. In the same time? No, but that doesn't matter. ... funny, I seem to recall hearing people whine about how hard Mender Ramiel's arc is on their IO'd characters, when I've walked through just fine on SOs. And by the way, I tend to use SOs/common IOs for the majority of most of my characters lives. And yet I don't seem to have these surviviability issues or other complaints. Perhaps because I'm not trying to say "My blaster has to do this like a brute!" or seeing myself in "competition" with other ATs for some silly reason. When did ATs not have enough damage to solo? Not "Solo fast enough for Miladys_Knight's taste," not "Solo fast enough to end any mission in 5 minutes," but solo? I seem to recall soloing with *every* AT all the way back in Issue 3. Was I rounding people up to pre-load the map for 6-8 people on my controller? Of course not. That doesn't matter. No. Like I've said, sure there are little tweaks that can be done here and there, like on snipes and nukes (and I still feel Judgement needs to be severely dialed down in non-Incarnate content.) But that's vastly different than "the entire AT needs to be reworked." Especially when, again, the argument against it is basically "it's not X AT." |
It shouldn't perform 'like a scrapper' but it should be able to do 'the same as a scrapper', in more or less the same time (Comparing them to brutes is silly because brutes are closer to tanks and we all know they do too much damage). And doing it in the same time matters massively, because if a scrapper is killing twice as quick he is earning twice the xp/inf/drops/etc.
I think you are mis-interpretting what people mean when they say it can't compare to other AT's. Nobody seriously wants massive passive defence on a blaster, every suggestion I have seen has pretty much been for active mitigation and increased damage to allow them to perform at the same level as other AT's, not in the same way.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
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From my perspective, the main issue with blasters is that they have no secondaries. Yes, they have them, but they're all garbage aside from Mental, which is only super good with IOs. In fact, the only blasters that are really any good past about 30 are the ones with the /IO secondary.
Maybe it sounds a bit extreme, but it's just how it is. Every other AT in the game has a secondary that supports its primary in some way, while blasters get a hodgepodge of crappy abilities mixed with one or two usable ones. The devs can try to fix blasters with more damage or weird inherent abilities all they want, but the truth is that there's nothing anyone can do to fix them without a more or less completely retool of every secondary.
Active (Freedom): Setna (Ice/Psi Dom), Arram (WP/KM Tank), Tesmiel (Elec/SS Tank), Astredax (Robot/Dark Mastermind), Operative Vidali (melee fortunata)
Retired (Virtue): Gaav (Inv/EM Tank), Baqra (Fire/SS Tank)
"How much more damage would you say you do than a scrapper with the same amount of inf sunk in their build?" You'll probably get an answer, if they're being accurate, like "20%" or "30%".
"How much tougher is that scrapper than you are?" You'll probably get an answer like "I don't die [much]" or "It doesn't matter, I kill things too fast" or some variant on "I don't know" or "I don't play them" or "I don't want to answer that question."
The answer, for most builds for most of the game, is "Scrappers are six times tougher, plus the advantage of mez protection."
How much tougher are Brutes? Six times tougher. How much more damage do Blasters do? Maybe 20%. Tanks? Ten times tougher, but at least Blasters do considerably more damage. Corruptors? Maybe only three times tougher, and don't have mez protection.
Six times tougher. 18% less damage. That is not balanced. (Incidentally, we went almost a month before someone brought up City of Blasters on the blaster boards. Yeah, June 2004 was the good month to be a blaster.)
I've said in another thread, that sure, some tweaks could be made. But, your posts seems to be hyperbole. Either that, or I have had a history of some very good RNG numbers.
Also, this mez protection issue I am just not understanding. On most teams, it becomes a non-issue. Either by tank'age or buffage. If solo, you plan accordingly.
Look folks, I don't want to simply face-roll across my keyboard to play my blasters. In every tf, trial I have completed with my blasters I have done so without death. 100% of the time? No, of course not. But, I have been there to see scrappers, brutes and tanks die. All while I am still blasting away. I can say for sure, I do not die 6 times more often than those ATs. And, that is totally not from standing in the background, watching the carnage.
So yeah, certain tweaks made to blasters? Sure.
But, I am seeing a lot of exaggeration to this 'broken' claim to blasters.