What can you do with a problem like a Blaster?
Well what to do with them is pretty obvious. Give them the damage they gave up most other things to get. That said they are the most flexible AT in the game. With a blaster you have the most choices on how you want to do things, and the means to achieve them.
I don't see the legitimacy of people saying the AT is hopeless when it can solo arch villains and giant monsters. The fact that blasters can't do that while on autopilot is part of their charm. Not everyone wants to play something where you can roll your face across the keyboard and still beat the enemies.
What concerns me more is what not to do with them.
1. What not to do, is make snipes the balancing point for sets that have them. I have never chosen a set because it had or didn't have a snipe, and I don't think anyone who did wants to be forced into taking snipes because they are now signature powers.
2. What not to do, take away anything from the flexibility of blasters. After looking at what was done to tankers, stalkers and dominators, I get the impression the devs fear flexibility.
3. What not to do, give the AT more goofy complicated mechanics. These things are fine in powersets where the people who like them can pick them and those that don't can stay away from them. We don't need a ring combo system for blasters. Part of the joy of the AT is that you can just blast. It is bad enough you have to use Build Up and Aim before you start blasting now. If a set does have that kind of mechanic it should be top tier in performance as compensation for the extra effort.
Blasters would be far better off left alone, if the "fix" is to give them one power they must use or some crazy system that got put in because someone fell in love with their own idea.
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In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
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(Seriously some posts make my head hurt trying to figure out what game the poster was actually playing. Most likely candidate is cross-bleed from the Earth 2 version of the CoH forums.)
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
I am honestly baffled by the posts that talk about "blasters are for advanced players" and "Blaster should be left as they are so I can have an archetype that's harder to succeed with"
First of all, intended or not, that just smacks of elitism. Secondly, parity is important. No one is saying make it "faceroll". But since the devs are not likely to push Blaster damage up to where it "should" be compared to their squishyness, then it is important to shore them up in areas they are lacking. No one wants them to become indestructible ranged attackers, but people do want them to be competitive with other archetypes. It's a flat out fact that currently they are not.
You know that song "Anything you can do I can do better!"? Yea... that's all the other archetypes singing to Blasters. Sure mid's will show you some nice numbers with a billion inf build and /mental manipulation but in actual game play ANY other archetype is going to have an easier time in whatever scenario you can come up with compared to a blaster specifically because they have more tools to work with.
Blasters have ONE power set instead of TWO like everyone else... they have "A Damage Power Set". Sure it has twice as many powers as any one of the two power sets that the other AT's get, and sometimes it has a few odd picks that are pretty decent, but on the whole it's just different ways of dealing damage and frankly the game has evolved beyond just how big your dps epeen is.
A giant epeen doesn't do much good if it doesn't have the stamina to perform :P And that's basically where Blasters are right now... waving around their big sticks and promptly getting deflated by mobs who poor Blasty just couldn't keep up with. Meanwhile Tanky, Trolly, Fendy, Domy, Scrappy, Bruty, Cory, Stalky, Masty, the Kheldy twins and the Recluse twins have all been popping viagra and going strong for years now. They may not have as big epeens but their performance is FAR more impressive than poor Blasty's.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
I am honestly baffled by the posts that talk about "blasters are for advanced players" and "Blaster should be left as they are so I can have an archetype that's harder to succeed with"
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You know that song "Anything you can do I can do better!"? Yea... that's all the other archetypes singing to Blasters. Sure mid's will show you some nice numbers with a billion inf build and /mental manipulation but in actual game play ANY other archetype is going to have an easier time in whatever scenario you can come up with compared to a blaster specifically because they have more tools to work with. |
Blasters have ONE power set instead of TWO like everyone else... they have "A Damage Power Set". Sure it has twice as many powers as any one of the two power sets that the other AT's get, and sometimes it has a few odd picks that are pretty decent, but on the whole it's just different ways of dealing damage and frankly the game has evolved beyond just how big your dps epeen is. |
I find that very enjoyable.
A giant epeen doesn't do much good if it doesn't have the stamina to perform :P And that's basically where Blasters are right now... waving around their big sticks and promptly getting deflated by mobs who poor Blasty just couldn't keep up with. Meanwhile Tanky, Trolly, Fendy, Domy, Scrappy, Bruty, Cory, Stalky, Masty, the Kheldy twins and the Recluse twins have all been popping viagra and going strong for years now. They may not have as big epeens but their performance is FAR more impressive than poor Blasty's. |
I run Carnie, and Malta missions at +4x8 on my blasters. Its farm more involving and exciting than running the same on Tanks and Brutes.
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I don't know how you prevent that sort of thing from happening on blasters that are far squishier, but whatever it is, its something beyond my understanding of physics.
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You're just too awesome for this game. This game isn't designed or balanced around your skill level. You'll have to accept the fact that when this game is balanced, it will be balanced for a difficulty level vastly under the one you think is appropriate. Most players can't run on +4x8 on any archetype with any powersets. And its not just a question of lack of experience. I've been killed on my soft-capped SR in +4x8 Carnie missions in a single instant with no chance to react at all, just due to the fact that an unlucky set of random rolls means a group of +4 Master Illusionists can kill me in a single volley.
I don't know how you prevent that sort of thing from happening on blasters that are far squishier, but whatever it is, its something beyond my understanding of physics. |
I am honestly baffled by the posts that talk about "blasters are for advanced players" and "Blaster should be left as they are so I can have an archetype that's harder to succeed with"
First of all, intended or not, that just smacks of elitism. Secondly, parity is important. No one is saying make it "faceroll". But since the devs are not likely to push Blaster damage up to where it "should" be compared to their squishyness, then it is important to shore them up in areas they are lacking. No one wants them to become indestructible ranged attackers, but people do want them to be competitive with other archetypes. It's a flat out fact that currently they are not. You know that song "Anything you can do I can do better!"? Yea... that's all the other archetypes singing to Blasters. Sure mid's will show you some nice numbers with a billion inf build and /mental manipulation but in actual game play ANY other archetype is going to have an easier time in whatever scenario you can come up with compared to a blaster specifically because they have more tools to work with. Blasters have ONE power set instead of TWO like everyone else... they have "A Damage Power Set". Sure it has twice as many powers as any one of the two power sets that the other AT's get, and sometimes it has a few odd picks that are pretty decent, but on the whole it's just different ways of dealing damage and frankly the game has evolved beyond just how big your dps epeen is. A giant epeen doesn't do much good if it doesn't have the stamina to perform :P And that's basically where Blasters are right now... waving around their big sticks and promptly getting deflated by mobs who poor Blasty just couldn't keep up with. Meanwhile Tanky, Trolly, Fendy, Domy, Scrappy, Bruty, Cory, Stalky, Masty, the Kheldy twins and the Recluse twins have all been popping viagra and going strong for years now. They may not have as big epeens but their performance is FAR more impressive than poor Blasty's. |
If ANY AT's should be harder to master and harder to play or give more of a challenge, it should be the EAT's, the ones, that in the past, you had to wait till you had already got a toon to 50, but now 20 or buy from the store, to play. Khelds and SoA's should be the harder toons to plays, by virtue of being a lot more limited in their posible combinations. After all, the design principle behind them seems, to me at least, to be, "here is a character that only has these powers and no others. Lets see if you can do as well with them" Yes, blasters have fewer choices in powers than many other AT's, in joint last place with Dom's for secondaries, and little thematic pairings, but they still have far more choice that the EAT's.
And if any of the basic AT's should be hard mode, it should be those the devs have already deemed to be too advanced for newbie freems to play, unless the have thrown some money at the game, MM's and controllers. No, I don't think blasters are horribly broken and unplayable, but then, I didn't think stalkers were either, but I love playing stalkers almost as much as my blasters, and even more so since the recent buffs, even if the change in play style has made my main stalker much more of an end hog than she used to be. That is the sort of buff Blasters need. Not the complete game changing re-design that some poeple have asked for, but just something to make them better at what they do.
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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I really should do something about this signature.
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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That said they are the most flexible AT in the game. With a blaster you have the most choices on how you want to do things, and the means to achieve them.
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The fact that blasters can't do that while on autopilot is part of their charm. Not everyone wants to play something where you can roll your face across the keyboard and still beat the enemies. |
1. What not to do, is make snipes the balancing point for sets that have them. I have never chosen a set because it had or didn't have a snipe, and I don't think anyone who did wants to be forced into taking snipes because they are now signature powers. |
2. What not to do, take away anything from the flexibility of blasters. After looking at what was done to tankers, stalkers and dominators, I get the impression the devs fear flexibility. |
3. What not to do, give the AT more goofy complicated mechanics. These things are fine in powersets where the people who like them can pick them and those that don't can stay away from them. We don't need a ring combo system for blasters. Part of the joy of the AT is that you can just blast. It is bad enough you have to use Build Up and Aim before you start blasting now. If a set does have that kind of mechanic it should be top tier in performance as compensation for the extra effort. |
"There's villainy ... and then there's supervillainy. The difference is performance."
-Doc_Reverend
Please turn that around. "There should be no AT that is more challenging than the easiest and anyone who seeks more challenge from the game is an elitist"
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Maybe it's just a matter of perspective. You might be able to finish a mission but you wont do it as safe as another AT and in many cases not as fast either regardless of how many attacks you have. And seriously how many attacks does ANY AT really need? 3 to 4 single target for a full chain (2 in Arcanville's Blaster's case!)? 2 to 3 aoes? Doesn't it seem wasteful to have that glut of extra attacks in both primary and secondary? Don't the melee attacks seem a bit awkward for an AT that is supposed to be ranged and is quite fragile?
Because blasters have those powersets they can have a toon that works the way the blaster wants it to. They don't have to do the hokey pokey like dominators. If you play a blaster you can build so you play well at range, melee or well at both.
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And you somehow think a few buffs here and there would lessen your enjoyment?
Melee types are traditionally the wade in and mess stuff up guys. They have survival directly packaged into them. But what about Defenders? Controllers? Everyone else? They ALL have better tools to deal with that mission's difficulty than you do. Sure you may succeed in clearing that mission but The rest of the pack (equally built for survival and IO'd out and using insps/pools/temps) are going to not only do it easier than you and safer than you... they are probably going to do it faster than you as well. And since the devs aren't likely to push your Blaster damage up to the point where you could do it faster than them even though they are safer, then it's time to accept that the only way to achieve parity is to really look at where the Blaster deficiencies lie and do something about them.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
Why are we even comparing a squishy class to a tank class? I don't think that at any point we should be making direct comparisons to SoAs, Tankers, Brutes, Stalkers, Scrappers or Master Minds; just doesn't make sense to me.
I can see comparing it to Doms (which is almost a mirror image; outside of Control); Corrs and Fenders (which lend themselves to similar offensive styles) and Khelds (which would seem to be the 'next step' for Blasters/Doms).
I just don't see the insistence on homogenizing (in general); if the trend continues we'll only have four classes Brute, Controller, Stalker and Corr (plus the EATs). And whether you realize it or not, when you use all these other ATs as a basis of specific comparisons (instead of focusing on the AT at hand of basing any improvement off its own playstyle) that's precisely what you're moving toward.
If I'm rolling a Blaster, its because I have an idea of what I'm getting into; pros and cons. If I didn't want to deal with that playstyle then I wouldn't be rolling him up in the first place; this coming from a person who's just recently been putting time into Blaster toons. If I'm seeking improvements to what's supposed to be a 'glass cannon'; it would be to make the cannon hit harder, faster, longer. If I'm to make an effort to add anything outside of the play philosophy; I would do it in such a manner that it wouldn't alter the playstyle to where I could go with another choice and not notice much of a difference.
********************************************
Altering a previous suggestion:
Blaster ranged attacks do damage based on range from caster at the time of attack initiation (far, mid, close and point blank); the closer the target is, the more damage an attack does - This allows the Blaster to have a bit more say on their 'risk (proximity) vs reward (bonus damage)'.
*In addition*, the proximity could trigger a 'chance to' effect (generic effect: far = none, mid = repel+fear, close = KD+fear, point blank = KB+fear; otherwise, it could be based on the powerset itself)
*Point Blank damage would also include a chance for small radius AoE damage around the target
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Altering a previous suggestion:
Blaster ranged attacks do damage based on range from caster at the time of attack initiation (far, mid, close and point blank); the closer the target is, the more damage an attack does - This allows the Blaster to have a bit more say on their 'risk (proximity) vs reward (bonus damage)'. *In addition*, the proximity could trigger a 'chance to' effect (generic effect: far = none, mid = repel+fear, close = KD+fear, point blank = KB+fear; otherwise, it could be based on the powerset itself) *Point Blank damage would also include a chance for small radius AoE damage around the target |
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Demo_record
You can just upload the generated file, no need to actually make a huge video file.
Don't blasters already have this capability to some extent? And by that I mean... blaster melee attacks/PBAOES far outstrip their ranged attacks in damage. They can already do what you're saying and I think that was originally their intent. It just doesn't work out as well as you might think and the current state of blasters is the prime example.
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But that aside, the ranged attack chain takes precedence and outnumbers melee representation (by at least 3 to 1) for Blasters.
What I'm suggesting acknowledges that and allows the chain to surpass melee involvement if the player so chooses; taking full command of close ranged and melee ranged damage if they choose otherwise (all without having to rely on their melee abilities).
It goes beyond your 'strictly' damage interpretation on the suggest[ion] with the addition of the 'chance to' effects (mitigation without sacrifice of playstyle).
It also allows for supplanting the Secondary Set's melee powers for other abilities (if that's what making Blasters have more parity comes down to.
Finally, it's generically thematic for a class that specializes in ranged damage.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
I could've sworn I've seen arguments against melee attacks in this thread for various reasons including 'poor damage'.
But that aside, the ranged attack chain takes precedence and outnumbers melee representation (by at least 3 to 1) for Blasters. What I'm suggesting acknowledges that and allows the chain to surpass melee involvement if the player so chooses; taking full command of close ranged and melee ranged damage if they choose otherwise (all without having to rely on their melee abilities). It goes beyond your 'strictly' damage interpretation on the suggesting with the addition of the 'chance to' effects (mitigation without sacrifice of playstyle). It also allows for supplanting the Secondary Set's melee powers for other abilities (if that's what making Blasters have more parity comes down to. Finally, it's generically thematic for a class that specializes in ranged damage. |
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Why are we even comparing a squishy class to a tank class? I don't think that at any point we should be making direct comparisons to SoAs, Tankers, Brutes, Stalkers, Scrappers or Master Minds; just doesn't make sense to me.
I can see comparing it to Doms (which is almost a mirror image; outside of Control); Corrs and Fenders (which lend themselves to similar offensive styles) and Khelds (which would seem to be the 'next step' for Blasters/Doms). |
I just don't see the insistence on homogenizing (in general); if the trend continues we'll only have four classes Brute, Controller, Stalker and Corr (plus the EATs). And whether you realize it or not, when you use all these other ATs as a basis of specific comparisons (instead of focusing on the AT at hand of basing any improvement off its own playstyle) that's precisely what you're moving toward.
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If I'm rolling a Blaster, its because I have an idea of what I'm getting into; pros and cons. If I didn't want to deal with that playstyle then I wouldn't be rolling him up in the first place; this coming from a person who's just recently been putting time into Blaster toons. If I'm seeking improvements to what's supposed to be a 'glass cannon'; it would be to make the cannon hit harder, faster, longer. If I'm to make an effort to add anything outside of the play philosophy; I would do it in such a manner that it wouldn't alter the playstyle to where I could go with another choice and not notice much of a difference.
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Altering a previous suggestion:
Blaster ranged attacks do damage based on range from caster at the time of attack initiation (far, mid, close and point blank); the closer the target is, the more damage an attack does - This allows the Blaster to have a bit more say on their 'risk (proximity) vs reward (bonus damage)'. *In addition*, the proximity could trigger a 'chance to' effect (generic effect: far = none, mid = repel+fear, close = KD+fear, point blank = KB+fear; otherwise, it could be based on the powerset itself) *Point Blank damage would also include a chance for small radius AoE damage around the target |
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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I could've sworn I've seen arguments against melee attacks in this thread for various reasons including 'poor damage'.
But that aside, the ranged attack chain takes precedence and outnumbers melee representation (by at least 3 to 1) for Blasters. What I'm suggesting acknowledges that and allows the chain to surpass melee involvement if the player so chooses; taking full command of close ranged and melee ranged damage if they choose otherwise (all without having to rely on their melee abilities). It goes beyond your 'strictly' damage interpretation on the suggest[ion] with the addition of the 'chance to' effects (mitigation without sacrifice of playstyle). It also allows for supplanting the Secondary Set's melee powers for other abilities (if that's what making Blasters have more parity comes down to. Finally, it's generically thematic for a class that specializes in ranged damage. |
As for the ranged vs melee damage... in virtually every case a melee attack or melee aoe of a similar scale is going to do more damage than an equivalent ranged attack or ranged aoe. This is just a fact. Even if both powers say "High" damage the melee will almost always be higher damage.
What I am hoping we see (beyond snipes being made good and all nukes going crashless) is either a mechanic like Arcanaville has been pushing for attacks to have a sort of splash fear/immob effect or at the very least to see some additional tweakage to secondary powers to add proactive survival effects to some of the existing powers. Make them useful beyond just another damage generator... don't be so terrified of letting Blasters have higher mag controls (dark pit and lightning clap for example could be mag 3 and wouldn't be stepping on controller's toes in any real way).
Examples of some possible ideas for Blasters that don't require replacing powers with something totally different:
Energy manip's Stun and Devices Taser could have their range increased significantly to give those sets more single target control without requiring them to get so close to use it.
Boost Range from energy manip could be renamed and have an additional benefit besides just a range increase... maybe it could work as a break free effect?
Targeting Drone could provide some minor mez protection (like mag 2 to stuns or something)
Touch of fear could be made more like Scare from mental manip (ranged fear)
Chilling embrace could have some minor mez protection (like mag 2 vs hold and maybe some recharge debuff resistance)
None of the mez prot ideas give comprehensive mez protection on a large scale to blasters and I think I am being very conservative with them. None of the mez suggestions make them too controllery either. It's ideas like these I think are reasonable to expect to see if and when the time comes that Blasters see some changes.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
As for the ranged vs melee damage... in virtually every case a melee attack or melee aoe of a similar scale is going to do more damage than an equivalent ranged attack or ranged aoe. This is just a fact. Even if both powers say "High" damage the melee will almost always be higher damage.
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Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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Ummmm, you might want to do your maths again. If a one ranged and one melee power on a blaster have the exact same base damage the range power will infact do the higher damage due to their range modifier being higher then their melee modifier. 1.125 for range and 1.0 for melee.
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Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
I'd love such a thing on Starsman, always thought tankers should be Melee controllers more than damage dealers. Shame the thing can only be used up to 50% of the time... I would love such a trait to be permanent trait of my tanker... anyways, this a blaster thread.
/end derail