What can you do with a problem like a Blaster?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-05 15:04 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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When that information first came out Arcanaville argued vehemently that the numbers did not mean that. Now she is arguing the opposite. So much for mathematical certainty.
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Originally Posted by St_Angelius
Personally, I cannot point you to the exact post, but I am sure someone else can, Like Acanaville, who I have seen quote that very peice several times. And believe me, I'll trust her knowledge over things of this nature far more than anyone elses beyond the devs.
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Eh, yes, when FIRST designed, doms melee attacks where significantly more powerful than their ranged. But since they got their ranged attacks buffed, it's quite possible to play a 100% ranged dom. I guess you missed the memo...
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Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
Doms are designed to have to enter into melee you don't have to do that with blasters at all.
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I really should do something about this signature.
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First, I Identify as She, and second, I have more than you who are only saying you don't want changes so as to not spoil your enjoyment.
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Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
Seeing as he didn't have any you aren't saying good things about your position.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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I am hardly the only one in this thread who has made that point. All you are doing is arguing for changes that might make the AT more enjoyable for people who don't think its any good.
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Originally Posted by St_Angelius
First, I Identify as She, and second, I have more than you who are only saying you don't want changes so as to not spoil your enjoyment.
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No, you are not the first person to have said that, you are also no the first person to have been told that they are far from the base line of the player base that the game is balenced around.|
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
I am hardly the only one in this thread who has made that point. All you are doing is arguing for changes that might make the AT more enjoyable for people who don't think its any good.
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Personally, I DO enjoy playing my blasters, that doesn't not preclude me from seeing how they under perform compared to the other AT's I play less often. But then, I enjoyed playing Stalkers before their recent buff too. And guess what? after they buff, I still enjoyed them. and it opened up MANY more choices for how I wanted to play with them, rather than having to use hit and run tactics, or stealth straight to the boss and ignore all theother bags of xp along the way. Changes and buffs don't mean killing off how you wish to play. If a blasters snipe gets buffed, it does not mean you have to take it. and it doesn't mean you are "Cheating" your team of its benefit if you do.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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I am glad you speak for the player base. Were you elected ?
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Originally Posted by St_Angelius
No, you are not the first person to have said that, you are also no the first person to have been told that they are far from the base line of the player base that the game is balenced around.
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Where Blasters really get sort of worked over is in the APPs.
If you look at several ATs before they get their APPs, they really don't compete well with Blasters in the damage department overall. Most Controllers don't even have a Tier 2 blast, and none has an actual AoE blast unless you count stuff like Tornado and Oil Slick Arrow. No Dominator has a ranged, radial blast a la Fireball. Brutes don't have Mu Mastery. Scrappers don't have Fireball.
As much as they contribute to APPs, you'd expect Blasters to get more back from other ATs. But they really don't. They get a fairly standard issue squishy armor, a modest single target hold, and so on, and almost across the board with values less favorable than other ATs. The APPs could have been the opportunity to address a lot of issues for the AT, but didn't really succeed at that.
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And you were?
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Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
I am glad you speak for the player base. Were you elected ?
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Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
I am totally against any complete overhaul to secondaries.. ONE it aint gonna happen.. too much time labor and resources.. Secondly a lot of the player base and I am definitely including myself LOVES their melee attacks on blasters.. These things to me are arguments that amount to nothing because its not going to happen.
The mez issue to me is something that is a problem but its not easily solved. Blasters were given defiance which is a help because no one else is allowed to attack while actually being mezzed but it doesnt seem to be enough for most people. In all honesty I am on the fence with this issue because my defenders, corruptors and controllers cannot attack through mezz and I dont agree with the argument that all those AT's have a way to mitigate that mezz. I agree that SOME sets in SOME combinations do.. but not all of them... and if they get mezzed there is nothing that they can do..
I also am tired of the scrapper ala melee AT argument. I play melee AT's mostly Brutes and Tanks.. ( i hate scrappers and stalkers although I have a few scrappers here and there). In all honesty I dont care if another AT can solo +4/x8... somehow that became the measuring stick of success and if you cannot do that then you arent successful.. I dont agree with that premise and I think the devs wont either.
There are things that can be done immediately to improve the blaster class that dont require the rework of secondaries or adding more mez protection.
1) Remove the crash from nukes that have them and reduce their recharge time to match nukes like Rain of Arrows. Also the blaster damage should be checked to make sure it is in line with Incarnare Judgement Powers. Also either defense boosts should be applied to all PBAoE nukes so that the blaster doesnt get the crap beat out of them trying to fire it off OR reduce the time it takes for it to fire...
2) Fix Snipes. Snipes were destroyed with ED, Blasters used to slot Snipes with 1 Accuracy 5 damage or 6 damage and use Build up and Aim to take out a target.. usually an annoying minion like a Malta Sapper or a LT.. Now Snipes are horrible... sometimes It wont even take out an even con minion.. This is a shame.. Snipes simply are not worth the damage. End cost.. Activation time and Rooting to be so ineffective.. This has to be addressed..
3) Normalize the range on ALL attacks. The Blaster is the ranged specialist. The blaster should have all attacks normalized to 80 feet. No more 40 foot blasts.. also these should be normalized across all powersets..
4) Give blasters inherent ranged defense as part of the AT. We were told once that range was a blasters defense.. Then the Blaster should get DEFENSE at range against ranged attacks to simulate what He/She does best.
5) Make sure ALL combinations of Primaries and Secondaries have access to a Aim'Build Up combo... Devices has no build up option.. a Damage buff should be added to Targeting Drone to compensate.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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This right here sounds like a great place to start with some good logic behind it.
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
4) Give blasters inherent ranged defense as part of the AT. We were told once that range was a blasters defense.. Then the Blaster should get DEFENSE at range against ranged attacks to simulate what He/She does best.
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Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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Show me where I claim to have been or where I claim to speak for some vast majority ? |
Originally Posted by Kyriani
And you were?
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If you can't you are lying.
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The trouble is, most of your suggested changers would also benefit Corruptors and Dominators, and hence do little to level the playing field.|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
There are things that can be done immediately to improve the blaster class that dont require the rework of secondaries or adding more mez protection.
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Blasters have garbage secondaries (and APPs). There is no escaping that. "Manipulation"? WT* is that supposed to mean?! Shows the devs had no idea what they where trying to do in the first place.
I really should do something about this signature.
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You don't have to enter melee with Doms either. You do give up some of their higher damage attacks, but they have enough ranged attacks that you can build a fully functional attack chain from range. Blasters have the same range/melee dichotomy. The difference is, Doms have mez protection and crowd controls. To get back to my original argument (I'll drop my contribution to the other discussions, since other posters are more knowledgeable about such things), what is unique to the Blaster chassis that makes them inherently more flexible than other AT's?
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Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
Doms are designed to have to enter into melee you don't have to do that with blasters at all.
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So, I have to be elected to know, from the devs own comments, that the game is balenced arund SO's and the "average" player. People soloing at +4X8 on All AT's, and finding most of them "face roll easy mode" are not the average player. sorry to burst your bubble there.
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Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
I am glad you speak for the player base. Were you elected ?
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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If you aren't then why does your opinion seem to carry so much weight and the rest of us are completely wrong?|
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
Show me where I claim to have been or where I claim to speak for some vast majority ?
If you can't you are lying. |
No one here thinks Blasters should lose their melee powers or get armor/mez protection toggles. But you seem hellbent on making sure that not a single precious thing changes for Blasters... even though they DO need some work to bring them up to par with everyone else.
It's not about taking anything away from Blasters or even giving them many things they don't already have. It's about making sure, in their own way, that Blasters can keep pace with every other AT.
Why you think that is a bad thing is anyone's guess.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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Full stop.|
Originally Posted by Grendar
You don't have to enter melee with Doms either. You do give up some of their higher damage attacks, but they have enough ranged attacks that you can build a fully functional attack chain from range. Blasters have the same range/melee dichotomy.
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On a blaster I can have continuous ranged aoe chain and decimate spawns before they ever get close. Doms don't even come close till they get their EPIC powers. Look at AR. Full Auto then Flame thrower then Buckshot then etc etc etc .
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| The difference is, Doms have mez protection and crowd controls. |
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| To get back to my original argument (I'll drop my contribution to the other discussions, since other posters are more knowledgeable about such things), what is unique to the Blaster chassis that makes them inherently more flexible than other AT's? |
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Not ones that don't suck, no.| And blasters don't have crowd controls ? No holds, stuns or immobilize ? |
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| You keep asking that question and ignoring the answers. |
I really should do something about this signature.
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It might help if you actually ANSWERED the question instead of just assuming everything you pour out in your little tirades amounts to an answer... just an FYI it doesn't.|
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
Full stop.
On a blaster I can have continuous ranged aoe chain and decimate spawns before they ever get close. Doms don't even come close till they get their EPIC powers. Look at AR. Full Auto then Flame thrower then Buckshot then etc etc etc . And blasters don't have crowd controls ? No holds, stuns or immobilize ? You keep asking that question and ignoring the answers. |
Blasters aren't the only ones with continuous aoe chains... so that doesn't qualify as flexibility.
Sure Blasters have some mez effects, but they are largely a) single target, b) if aoe are usually mag 2 and c) just plain not enough to give them survival on par with any other AT... and since their damage output doesn't really make up for that... and because the devs aren't likely to increase their damage output to make up for it... then the only answer left is.... wait for it... to improve their survival IN SOME WAY... not necessarily give them armors or mez protection but TWEAK them in SMALL WAYS to make them better.
I gave very conservative examples of this earlier in this thread:
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Originally Posted by Kyriani
Energy manip's Stun and Devices Taser could have their range increased significantly to give those sets more single target control without requiring them to get so close to use it.
Boost Range from energy manip could be renamed and have an additional benefit besides just a range increase... maybe it could work as a break free effect? Targeting Drone could provide some minor mez protection (like mag 2 to stuns or something) Touch of fear could be made more like Scare from mental manip (ranged fear) Chilling embrace could have some minor mez protection (like mag 2 vs hold and maybe some recharge debuff resistance) None of the mez prot ideas give comprehensive mez protection on a large scale to blasters and I think I am being very conservative with them. None of the mez suggestions make them too controllery either. It's ideas like these I think are reasonable to expect to see if and when the time comes that Blasters see some changes. |
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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When you say the rest of us, you mean the people you agree with. So far all your side offers up is bad reasoning like the above statement. |
Originally Posted by Kyriani
If you aren't then why does your opinion seem to carry so much weight and the rest of us are completely wrong?
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| But you seem hellbent on making sure that not a single precious thing changes for Blasters... even though they DO need some work to bring them up to par with everyone else. |
My exact statement.
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Well what to do with them is pretty obvious. Give them the damage they gave up most other things to get. That said they are the most flexible AT in the game. With a blaster you have the most choices on how you want to do things, and the means to achieve them. I don't see the legitimacy of people saying the AT is hopeless when it can solo arch villains and giant monsters. The fact that blasters can't do that while on autopilot is part of their charm. Not everyone wants to play something where you can roll your face across the keyboard and still beat the enemies. |
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| It's not about taking anything away from Blasters or even giving them many things they don't already have. It's about making sure, in their own way, that Blasters can keep pace with every other AT. |
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A) That's just not true. Not compared to every other AT.|
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
I don't know about your blasters but mine have no trouble keeping pace.
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B) YOU are not the metric upon which balance should be based.
This isn't a situation where saying "Lrn2Play" is an acceptable answer
(yes yes you didn't say that I know I know)
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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It is becoming obvious the only answer you can accept is one that reinforces your preconceived opinion.|
Originally Posted by Kyriani
It might help if you actually ANSWERED the question instead of just assuming everything you pour out in your little tirades amounts to an answer... just an FYI it doesn't.
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| Blasters aren't the only ones with continuous aoe chains... so that doesn't qualify as flexibility. |
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| On a blaster I can have continuous ranged aoe chain and decimate spawns before they ever get close. Doms don't even come close till they get their EPIC powers. Look at AR. Full Auto then Flame thrower then Buckshot then etc etc etc . |
IF you look at nothing but one capability you will never see flexibility.
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Sure Blasters have some mez effects, but they are largely a) single target, b) if aoe are mag 2 and c) just plain not enough to give them survival on par with any other AT... |
Just off the top of my head Tenebracious tentacles Mag 3, Psychic shockwave mag 3.
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Yet, you keep demanding the game be made easier because of your inability to master it. Do you think it is at all appropriate to do this ? Can't get the hang of the knights in chess ? Demand they move three spaces forward only.
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Originally Posted by Kyriani
A) That's just not true. Not compared to every other AT.
B) YOU are not the metric upon which balance should be based. This isn't a situation where saying "Lrn2Play" is an acceptable answer (yes yes you didn't say that I know I know) |
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they aren't far off saying it though.
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Originally Posted by Kyriani
(yes yes you didn't say that I know I know)
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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I did edit that post to say "most" aoe controls are mag 2 for Blasters but regardless... Immobilizes arent going to do much to mitigate damage in the higher levels... ranged attacks at those levels are almost as devastating if not more so especially mez effects. According to Mid's Psychic Shockwave is mag 2 NOT mag 3... but even still it is NOT a reliable control power it is a PBAOE DAMAGE power with a 25% CHANCE to stun for 6 seconds...
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Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
It is becoming obvious the only answer you can accept is one that reinforces your preconceived opinion.
Does that have any bearing on what I said re: Blasters vs Dominators ? No not really. Some defenders and corruptors can achieve full ranged chains without going to epics but they have abysmal melee attack sets. Some melee sets can achieve full AoE chains but they are melee chains. IF you look at nothing but one capability you will never see flexibility. Wrong Just off the top of my head Tenebracious tentacles Mag 3, Psychic shockwave mag 3. |
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
Do you actually have that or is it just wishful thinking on your part ? Do you have any idea why they are the most abandoned AT or is it just more wishful thinking ? For all you know its nothing more than the fact that description of the AT doesn't do an adequate job letting people know what they will be playing.