What can you do with a problem like a Blaster?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-05 15:04 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Ok Team today's mission is to shingle a roof. Tank, scrapper, defender, and controller here are your tool boxes, nails, and shingles. Sorry blaster we ran out of stuff while we were getting ready for you. I do have some good news though. You can use my crowbar for a tool, the rest of the guys will share their left over shingles, and you can have all the bent nails you want.|
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
I love people who instead of trying to overcome challenges whine about them instead.
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Blasters don't have all the tools needed to overcome many of the challenges they face in the game. That a tiny handful of blasters have figured out how to shingle a roof well under such conditions is amazing.
That the players that have done so insist that EVERYONE else continue to suffer through that is appalling.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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It isn't the blaster that has the problem it is the player.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
IMO conceding that Blasters are at a disadvantage isn't helpful to your argument. The debate is about "whether Blasters underperform and how to buff them" not just about "how to buff Blasters" (my words).
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Ok Team today's mission is to shingle a roof. Tank, scrapper, defender, and controller here are your tool boxes, nails, and shingles. Sorry blaster we ran out of stuff while we were getting ready for you. I do have some good news though. You can use my crowbar for a tool, the rest of the guys will share their left over shingles, and you can have all the bent nails you want.
Blasters don't have all the tools needed to overcome many of the challenges they face in the game. That a tiny handful of blasters have figured out how to shingle a roof well under such conditions is amazing. That the players that have done so insist that EVERYONE else continue to suffer through that is appalling. |
I don't want you roofing my home.
Blasters may not have the hammer or nails, but they do have the power sander and the tar pot. I don't expect my corruptors to tank. I don't expect my scrappers to debuff. Everyone brings something to a team but not everyone brings the same thing.
Edit: Really for someone that continuously brags about what their blasters do this is really hypocritical.
Wow this is really just bad.
BL angel, Alekhine I don't agree with you but at least I understand your arguments.
Edit: Let me take a little time to explain where I come from on this. I really don't expect to change your minds but maybe you can concede there is some validity to the other side ?
Blasters in my eyes, have always been behind the curve. Their numbers for pool and epic powers put them well behind every other AT from the start. When you add in the nature of how IOs and how defense and resistance work they fall further behind.
Where a corrupter may need to use 20 slots to softcap their defenses and a defender 5, a blaster might have to use 40. A scrapper, a stalker or brute can both have very high survivability in melee and do large amounts of damage there with little more than SOs. If a blaster wants hi survivability at range they have to buy it with IOs.
Now I am not saying blasters can't do things, just that it takes them considerably more effort.
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The problem is that Blasters don't bring anything but damage to the team... and that damage is lacking in relation to their fragility and in comparison to the other ATs. In plain terms the other AT's can perform just as well as damage dealers compared to Blasters and do so with far more safety and consistency.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I don't want you roofing my home.
Blasters may not have the hammer or nails, but they do have the power sander and the tar pot. I don't expect my corruptors to tank. I don't expect my scrappers to debuff. Everyone brings something to a team but not everyone brings the same thing. |
The idea is not to change what Blasters are, what they do, or how they do it. The idea is simply to bring them up to par with everyone else. Since the devs aren't willing to simply up their damage to the point where it is worth their fragility and lack of utility... then the obvious changes will be to improve their utility and lessen their fragility in some way.
That does not mean overhauling their secondaries into something totally different, giving them armor toggles (beyond the APP/PPP ones) or giving them comprehensive mez protection. After Blasters get their review and changes they will still generally play the same as they do now... they will just be more effective when doing so.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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Don't ever change. Really, your constancy is a touchstone to me. But back to the topic, Have you tried fighting only one Master Illusionist boss at a time ?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
You're just too awesome for this game. This game isn't designed or balanced around your skill level. You'll have to accept the fact that when this game is balanced, it will be balanced for a difficulty level vastly under the one you think is appropriate. Most players can't run on +4x8 on any archetype with any powersets. And its not just a question of lack of experience. I've been killed on my soft-capped SR in +4x8 Carnie missions in a single instant with no chance to react at all,
I don't know how you prevent that sort of thing from happening on blasters that are far squishier, but whatever it is, its something beyond my understanding of physics. |
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You don't have to sell me. I have been saying that since defiance 2.0|
Originally Posted by Kyriani
The problem is that Blasters don't bring anything but damage to the team... and that damage is lacking in relation to their fragility and in comparison to the other ATs. In plain terms the other AT's can perform just as well as damage dealers compared to Blasters and do so with far more safety and consistency.
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Edit: Let me be clear. Blasters are a basic AT. They are the most picked AT at the start of the game. => Most picked by new players, New Players<> Advanced Players. => They should not be the challenge AT. So while I can appreciate that people would want a more challenging AT, and I have nothing against there being one, Blasters aren't the one it should be.
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Synapse agrees blasters have problems and changes are coming in I24.|
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
I love people who instead of trying to overcome challenges whine about them instead.
Really I do. They inspire me not to be like them. |
Maybe they'll let you opt out and you can keep building the Taj Majal with a toothbrush and handful of toenail clippings!
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Because reading the forums usually changes my playing preferences/mood, all this talk about Blaster has gotten me into wanting to play Blasters, mainly my DP/Fire/Ice and my Sonic/Ice/Munitions again. I IO'ed them lightly as they lvled up but they both sit now in the 40s as I tend not to focus on getting xp but finishing desired arcs before progressing further down the path to 50.
Anyway, I have to say, for Blasters, I find their control pretty good. In fact, soloing at around x4-x6 is possible (the level depends how sturdy you make the character...generally +0 for non-Brutes/Tankers and +1 for those with overwhelming offense...start adding IO defense and that lvl slowly goes up). You just have to know how to use the control, which requires knowledge and experience...but using controls for Blasters should revolve around mezzers and/or bosses...that is, if you've got a ST stun or Hold in your blast set, use it on the mezzing Lt or Boss...
One thing though...ST controls won't affect bosses unless you stack them but their recharge and duration may be restrictive in doing that (not to mention you have to survive long enough to accomplish that stacking).
This is why I have built the characters as I have...
For the Sonic blaster, I've gotten lots of milage out of using sleeps when solo. Sleeps + ice patch + ST stun often means any non-boss has no chance of actually getting attacks off on me. Frozen Aura helps stack sleep mags because it does 0 damage so it + Sirens Song means I can even sleep bosses.
What really helps though, is I respeced out of Sleep Grenade and picked up Surveillance and it + Cryo Freeze Ray + Freezing Touch really helps keep me alive. The minions and Lts can easily be killed off with overwhelming damage. But the stacking Holds + all the other mitigation makes soloing safe...but tedious.
Now comes my newest Blaster, the DP/Fire/Ice who has been better outfitted with the new SBE, specifically lots of the procs. With only 1 power built for ST mitigation (Suppressive Fire) and 1 power for AoE mitigation (Flash Freeze), my DP blaster can mitigate spawns and kill them without needing to do all the tedium of stacking, juggling and spending powers on a bunch of extra mitigation as a failsafe.
Even with the new changes to procs per min, the Lockdown proc in Suppressive Fire still has a good chance to 1-shot hold bosses and it makes this blaster a breeze...even 2 bosses at once.
Aaaand relating all that, is my thesis:
My suggestion for giving Blaster's a type of Overpower (the Controller's inherent) would help the AT *immensely*. If Blasters had a procced chance of an extra mag of mez that scaled by enemy rank (so sort of Overpower + Critical Hits combined), it'd give blasters a high chance of 1-shot holding dangerous foes while leaving your damage there to mitigate all the weaker ones. I feel that's mostly all a Blaster needs to help them survive, even against multiple bosses...and this would be applicable for all ST mezzes on a Blaster...so Scare, Freezing Touch, Midnight Grasp, ST immobilizes, Cosmic Burst, Suppressive Fire, etc. would have a high chance to simply 1-shot mez boss types.
What do you think? And since they usually have multiple ST mezzes, a Blaster may be able to neutralize multiple hard targets at a time...and this is not mentioning possible changes to Blaster control mods which I think deserve to be improved.
The sets that don't have ST mezzes, however, are Energy Blast, Fire Blast, Fire Manipulation and Force Mastery. That's not very many but there'd be cases where my suggestion wouldn't have any affect like for an Energy/Fire/Force blaster...but honestly, I think this change would basically fix the AT with only a few edge cases.
...Mind you, I'm only speaking of Blaster's mitigation problems. Issues with power structures, effects numbers/mods, damage and specifically incoming mez isn't what this is addressing.
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Isn't that proving the point point you are trying to oppose? Only Blasters would need to fight one Master Illusionist at a time. Anyone else can fight half a dozen.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Don't ever change. Really, your constancy is a touchstone to me. But back to the topic, Have you tried fighting only one Master Illusionist boss at a time ?
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I know. Why not create a new AT, called the Arroganter. Make it rubbish at everything so people who play it will be able to bask in the glow of their own superiority whenever they kill six skulls.
Then there would be no use for blasters at all.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Woah turbo. Go over to the blaster boards and take a look at where I have been on this subject for the past nearly 4 years now, or if you don't want to do that here it is in a nutshell |
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Isn't that proving the point point you are trying to oppose? Only Blasters would need to fight one Master Illusionist at a time. Anyone else can fight half a dozen.
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| They are the most picked AT at the start of the game. => Most picked by new players, New Players<> Advanced Players. => They should not be the challenge AT. So while I can appreciate that people would want a more challenging AT, and I have nothing against there being one, Blasters aren't the one it should be. |
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Mag 4 steps on controller toes. I would be surprised if it ever happens since we lost the one mag 4 control tool we ever had at least partly for that reason.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Aaaand relating all that, is my thesis:
My suggestion for giving Blaster's a type of Overpower (the Controller's inherent) would help the AT *immensely*. If Blasters had a procced chance of an extra mag of mez that scaled by enemy rank (so sort of Overpower + Critical Hits combined), it'd give blasters a high chance of 1-shot holding dangerous foes while leaving your damage there to mitigate all the weaker ones. I feel that's mostly all a Blaster needs to help them survive, even against multiple bosses...and this would be applicable for all ST mezzes on a Blaster...so Scare, Freezing Touch, Midnight Grasp, ST immobilizes, Cosmic Burst, Suppressive Fire, etc. would have a high chance to simply 1-shot mez boss types. What do you think? And since they usually have multiple ST mezzes, a Blaster may be able to neutralize multiple hard targets at a time...and this is not mentioning possible changes to Blaster control mods which I think deserve to be improved. The sets that don't have ST mezzes, however, are Energy Blast, Fire Blast, Fire Manipulation and Force Mastery. That's not very many but there'd be cases where my suggestion wouldn't have any affect like for an Energy/Fire/Force blaster...but honestly, I think this change would basically fix the AT with only a few edge cases. ...Mind you, I'm only speaking of Blaster's mitigation problems. Issues with power structures, effects numbers/mods, damage and specifically incoming mez isn't what this is addressing. |
I've always thought that the tier 1 secondary power should be a range 80 mag 4 immobilize yet..... here we are still mag 3 and all over the place with respec to range, projectile speed, and animation time.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Exactly the point I have been trying to make.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You don't have to sell me. I have been saying that since defiance 2.0
Edit: Let me be clear. Blasters are a basic AT. They are the most picked AT at the start of the game. => Most picked by new players, New Players<> Advanced Players. => They should not be the challenge AT. So while I can appreciate that people would want a more challenging AT, and I have nothing against there being one, Blasters aren't the one it should be. |
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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Ah, but then Arcana was replying to B_L_Angels who said she solos carnies at +4X8 on a blaster, Arcana was pointing out how much trouble she had on a SR scrapper on the same difficulty, and that if a sturdier AT with inbuillt mez protection had trouble it was a clever feat to do so with a blaster.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
My point was Arcanavile's point was rubbish. Everyone is going to have problems fighting 4 master illusionists at a time, well maybe not a Dark Armor character but that is about it.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Then it's time for them to get off the cross, use the wood to build a bridge, and get over it.
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Not really. IIRC the Master Illusionists use a psionic attack without a positional tag. Almost all SR's advantages are negated.
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Originally Posted by St_Angelius
Ah, but then Arcana was replying to B_L_Angels who said she solos carnies at +4X8 on a blaster, Arcana was pointing out how much trouble she had on a SR scrapper on the same difficulty, and that if a sturdier AT with inbuillt mez protection had trouble it was a clever feat to do so with a blaster.
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I doubt Controllers would care. Controllers have (de)buffs, pets, mass control and a means of doing 2x damage on mezzed foes. If this steps on anyone's toes, it's probably Defenders who seem shortchanged in the controls department while doing innately less damage than a capable controller.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Mag 4 steps on controller toes. I would be surprised if it ever happens since we lost the one mag 4 control tool we ever had at least partly for that reason.
I've always thought that the tier 1 secondary power should be a range 80 mag 4 immobilize yet..... here we are still mag 3 and all over the place with respec to range, projectile speed, and animation time. |
Beyond that, this is for single target control only. And yeah, while Blasters did lose their premiere mag 4 control power, this isn't a suggestion for mag 4 control power...it's a mag 3 control power with a high(er for bosses) chance of +1 mag. There's a difference.
That said, I'd hardly say it's stepping on anyone's toes more than they step on blasters' toes. And frankly, any argument that brings up toe-smashing is baseless and pointless to me. This isn't about what controllers or dominators or whomever can do, this is what Blasters need to do. Period.
I'm just pointing out that, demonstratively, a Blaster whom can reliably mitigate a boss or problem target by singling them out can greatly improve their survivability performance since they do have the ability of wiping mass weaker foes out. The addition would improve the AT to a wide enough degree, IMO, and without reworking of the AT in a drastic fashion all while being thematically appropriate. Overpowering a strong target with relative ease illustrates potency which is what a blaster's attacks should seem.
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Nope, SR scrapper is still ahead in mez protection and max hp. And they can kill them faster than a blaster.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Not really. IIRC the Master Illusionists use a psionic attack without a positional tag. Almost all SR's advantages are negated.
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I really should do something about this signature.
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Apart from caltrops, my AR/Dev disagrees with you. I'm sorely tempted to remake him as an AR/TA Corr because at least with Flash Arrow, a nearby spawn won't concern me, with Glue Arrow, Ignite is suddenly more useful especially with a Scourging Ignite patch. Acid Arrow would help deal with the enemies resisting lethal and fire damage, plus EMP Arrow is a great power for any TA, able to have a powerful hold at range with no super-crash.|
Originally Posted by Player99
Well, in that case wouldn't the added utility of the secondary set give a reason to be in melee range, even with the range defense?
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Sure I lose Defiance and Traps gives Force Field Generator and Acid Mortar, but at least AR/TA Corrs are not a mainly stationary set (the mortars, bombs, mines, and caltrops).
It's sad when an AT like Corrs can outdo Blasters because as the enemy gets lower in HP, the chance to crit/Scourge increases, and against high hp targets like EBs, AVs, GMs, etc, this allows their damage to consistently skyrocket above that of a Blaster while providing a form of debuffing/buffing during long fights.
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Just an aside, but from my memories of playing a /TA controller, Acid Arrow doesn't do enough damage for this. It's a debuff with a little minor damage, and S/L resistance will resist the debuff.
| Acid Arrow would help deal with the enemies resisting lethal and fire damage |
I really should do something about this signature.
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Really ? So you think a 25-30% advantage in HP + Mez protection offsets having to fight several of them at once in melee range with a MA/SR scrapper ?
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Nope, SR scrapper is still ahead in mez protection and max hp. And they can kill them faster than a blaster.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
And in any case, it's a moot point. Improvements of some sort of coming.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Synapse agrees blasters have problems and changes are coming in I24.\
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'll take a step back a bit to answer this. At the beginning of time, the devs created five different power "classes" - Damage, Control, Defense, Buff/Debuff. Every powerset focuses on one of these, and every archetype has two of these.
Because Damage was split into Melee and Ranged Damage, Blasters became the only archetype that only received one of these. But more importantly, three of the four contain significant damage mitigation and survival tools. Every archetype gets at least one powerset that contains a lot of mitigation. Except Blasters. This was a fundamental difference, but at the beginning of time it was thought that this would be balanced by the fact that Blasters had so much more offense than all other archetypes that it would make up for that deficit. This wasn't true, but you could almost believe it until the devs made another fundamental change to the way they balanced the game. They decided that everyone must have the capability to solo effectively. And that meant everyone had to have at least some minimum amount of damage. Tanker damage went up. Controller damage went up. Meanwhile, there was no serious effort to address the fact that soloing requires *two* things: enough offense and enough survivability. In the current game, everyone needs to be able to kill, and everyone needs to be able to survive. And every archetype without exception has at least one powerset that is EXPLICITLY designed to kill, and one powerset EXPLICITLY designed to keep the player alive. *Except* Blasters. That's what they lack. And its not just a trivial difference: its the largest fundamental difference between any archetype and all other archetypes in the game. |
I can see, and totally understand the point of what you are saying here.
Also, I do understand how MMOs evolve and changes take place. I am not against that happening. My point is, and has been that, it is very important preserve what the blaster AT is. Any changes or 'fixes' should not radically change the playstyle of a blaster.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Wow this is really just bad.
BL angel, Alekhine I don't agree with you but at least I understand your arguments. Edit: Let me take a little time to explain where I come from on this. I really don't expect to change your minds but maybe you can concede there is some validity to the other side ? Blasters in my eyes, have always been behind the curve. Their numbers for pool and epic powers put them well behind every other AT from the start. When you add in the nature of how IOs and how defense and resistance work they fall further behind. Where a corrupter may need to use 20 slots to softcap their defenses and a defender 5, a blaster might have to use 40. A scrapper, a stalker or brute can both have very high survivability in melee and do large amounts of damage there with little more than SOs. If a blaster wants hi survivability at range they have to buy it with IOs. Now I am not saying blasters can't do things, just that it takes them considerably more effort. |
You were not the person to mention this, but back to the +4/x8. In my opinion no single AT or character should be surviving a +4/x8 mission. If anything, that should be a rare occurrence. As it stands right now, we probably have too many players that can pull a character out of their pocket and run at +4/x8 without handpicking enemies much. The ceiling of difficulty should not be so easily achieved.
I'll leave you with this quote from the blaster thread.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
When you're building a melee character, you live and die by the build.
When you're building a Blaster, you live and die by the playstyle. |
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Sure, you use a couple of purple insps. No problem. I do it with my Ice tank all the time, which also has no psi defense.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Really ? So you think a 25-30% advantage in HP + Mez protection offsets having to fight several of them at once in melee range with a MA/SR scrapper ?
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A blaster can also do it with insps to of course, but the will need a lot more - insps for mez protection, insps for healing, and insps because the fight will go on for longer.
I really should do something about this signature.
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What's wrong is it's not true. If you are a melee AT, you live because you have defenses out of the box, no special build is required.|
Originally Posted by Alekhine
Yeah, so what is wrong with that?
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If Blasters required more skill but could achieve higher than other ATs, that would be fine. But blasters require more skill to achieve at the same level as a dim n00b playing a scrapper.
I really should do something about this signature.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Really ? So you think a 25-30% advantage in HP + Mez protection offsets having to fight several of them at once in melee range with a MA/SR scrapper ?
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How is a blaster better off vs. MIs or a large spawn of Carnies in general? I guess the one advantage is against the dark servants because blasters can stay out of the debuff? It is not like blaster builds normally end up with more Psi defense than a /SR scrapper. Even at incarnate level, the blaster will need Clarion, the scrapper is free to take Barrier or Rebirth.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
IMO conceding that Blasters are at a disadvantage isn't helpful to your argument. The debate is about "whether Blasters underperform and how to buff them" not just about "how to buff Blasters" (my words).
If your contention is that some ATs are just worse than others, then that's out of alignment with what designers intended. They didn't sit down and say "Let's make Blasters worse than other ATs." That's just an accident that resulted from the montage of game changes that have happened since Blasters were originally designed.