What can you do with a problem like a Blaster?
I question how you choose to group/present your buff list.
I'm looking at it as: on average (in a majority of cases) Blasters have a damage buffer in their primary (which is comparable to most ATs (including melee) that have sets that provide damage buff powers (with 3 notable set exceptions (one of which can be dependent on RNG) and one notable AT exception; Stalkers (technically having two damage buff powers) on average (in a majority of cases) Blasters also have a damage buff power in their secondaries (which outstrips whats available in most melee ATs; even where secondary buffs are available (Fiery Embrace's longer recharge and Against All Odds' dependence on targets). Dominators also have this leverage in about half of their sets while the debuff AT classes have methods that allow them to leverage a better buff over time in their secondaries than what is provided in the melee secondaries. Question is, IMO, who does the law of averages favor, over time, (AT wise; set wise) when it comes to powers based damage buffs by rank? |
The theoretical maximum performance of Build Up, at the recharge cap of 500% recharge, is 1.32 idle, 10s of +100%, 8s of no buff. At approximately +100% damage slotting, that is +38% damage strength, or 19% more net total damage. If you can average four or more targets within AAO, you will beat the best that BU can do under the numerically best possible conditions.
In PvE Fiery Embrace has the same uptime as Build Up and Aim: its up 20s with 180 recharge, which is identical uptime to Build Up's 10s of buff with 90s recharge. It also has lower cast time and far lower per cycle time. Slot BU with SOs and you spend about 2.8% of its total cast time rooted and unable to attack. FE slotted similarly spends only 1% of its total cycle time similarly rooted. The net result is that slotted with SOs, even though FE delivers a slightly lower buff (45% additional base damage vs BU's +100% damage strength, roughly 50% additional damage overall) it delivers more overall benefit: 8.9% vs BU's 8%. For all higher recharge regimes, FE gets increasingly better than BU.
Power Siphon also beats BU, and many prior analyses of FU which are a bit more complex due it its effect on attack chains have concluded that FU is at worst equal to BU, and almost certainly better.
I also get the feeling you think Blasters have a higher damage buff modifier than Scrappers. If so, that's false. Both have a 0.125 melee damage buff modifier. BU buffs both by +100% damage. Oh, but BU buffs Blaster tohit by 15% and Scrappers by 20%. That's because Scrappers have a tohit self buff modifier of 0.1 and Blasters have a tohit self buf modifier of 0.075. BU is always better for Scrappers than Blasters, albeit primarily in its accuracy improvement. Its equal in the damage area.
Comparing Blaster secondaries to Scrapper primaries, every Blaster secondary has Build Up except for Devices (which has no comparable power) and Dark (which has Soul Drain). Every Scrapper primary also has Build Up (same damage buff, higher tohit buff) except Claws (Follow Up), Dual Blades (similar to FU), Dark Melee (Soul Drain), Kinetic Melee (Power Siphon), Staff (which has forms), Street Justice (whose BU analog buffs less damage but improves combos), and Titan Weapons (same).
So if we consider BU to be the baseline, two Blaster secondaries are exceptional: Devices which is lower and Dark which is higher. If we assume Follow Up is no better than BU (and most analyses including mine over the years have said its likely better) then the exceptional Scrapper primaries become Dark and Kin which are both provably higher (than BU), and Staff, SJ, and TW.
If we say Staff's self damage buff is lower, the question is where do SJ and TW fall. Given their self damage powers are intimately tied with combos, this is probably a non-trivial issue to convert into an apples to apples comparison, but its highly unlikely the net contribution of Combat Readiness and Build Momentum is to be significantly lower than BU. Particularly because they have about 2/3rds of the damage buff of BU besides their combo effects.
Conservatively - very conservatively - this is a draw. In reality, FU is stronger than I'm giving credit for and SJ and TW are almost certainly better than I'm giving credit for, or just plain incomparable. Worst case scenario is a tie. Its almost certainly a win for Scrappers.
That leaves the other side of the equation: Blaster primaries vs Scrapper secondaries. Here, Blasters do have more actual powers, but that power is Aim: Aim's damage buff is not very high in terms of net overall buff over time. Remember that BU was only increasing damage by 8% under SO conditions and its maximum possible benefit was only 19% (i.e. about +38% damage buff). Aim's going to be lower than that. And its competition is going to be Fiery Embrace and Against All Odds, both of which are stronger than Build Up, much less Aim. In fact, if you're thinking that a straight simple average across the board is the correct way to compare, then saturated AAO alone is going to come close to beating Aim across the board. Lets assume FE grants about 8.8% net damage, or about 17.6% damage strength equivalent, and AAO is saturated at +81.25%. That means averaged across nine scrapper secondaries that is about +11% damage buff.
Aim's average buff slotted with SOs is about +7.8% damage buff. If every blaster primary had Aim, the average would be 7.8%. But AR and Dual Pistols don't. So unless you believe AR and Dual Pistols have something that is an equivalent to Aim but twice as strong, Scrappers are actually going to win this one also.
Perhaps you think its unfair to presume AAO is saturated. So lets work backwards. The Blaster average with no Aim in AR and DP is actually +6.5% on average due to Aim. How many targets does AAO need to average for the Scrapper average to tie that value? Its when AAO is generating about +49.7% buff, which occurs at 5.4 targets.
When Shield averages 5.4 targets in AAO, it and FE alone can combine to provide a greater average benefit to nine scrapper secondaries than Aim can when ten out of twelve blaster primaries have it.
So even though all I said was that Scrappers get the strongest and the most variety of damage self buffs, if you want to average the self buff amounts for both Blasters and Scrappers, something I would not necessarily consider a valid comparison, Blasters still lose.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
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So even though all I said was that Scrappers get the strongest and the most variety of damage self buffs, if you want to average the self buff amounts for both Blasters and Scrappers, something I would not necessarily consider a valid comparison, Blasters still lose.
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Scrappers have 3 secondaries and 1 primary with a damage aura and are better suited to leveraging damage auras (blasters have 3 secondaries with damage auras).
Scrappers have 3 secondaries that add +recharge and six which resist slows (blasters have nothing that adds +recharge or resists slows).
Most scrapper secondaries have two powers that boost recovery, reduce end costs, or regain endurance (Dark, SR, and Invuln only have 1, Energy and Electric have 3). Two scrapper APPs have powers that aid end management. Five of seven blaster secondaries offer 1 end management power (three blaster APP powers also have some end help). Several scrapper secondaries also resist end drain and/or recovery debuffs, one blaster secondary resists drain.
Resurgence adds significantly to offense, but that is slightly offset by a period of lower offense.
Invincibility adds +to-hit and several scrapper secondary powers grant +perception as well as some APP powers. One blaster secondary has access to +perception and it also grants +to-hit.
Blasters get one -regen power, scrappers have none (yet).
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
On the subject of mid-to-high level survivability (abandoning Blasters in the 30 level range); did the earlier access change to EPPs impact that in any way?
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Since it isn't available until level 35, 41, 44, and the final power at 47 the answer would be a no.
If it was available at level 4 like the rest of the pools there would be a small chance of it being a yes.
That's not the only issue though. The blaster is slot poor until the late 30s early 40s too which was not a huge contributing factor pre-ED but has always been an issue post ED.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Goat: I said "median Blaster" not "average Blaster" for just that reason. I'm sorry, AR/Dev; I'm sorry.
Arcanaville:
I have a counterargument, but not enough math to support it. My gut feeling [flinch] is that burstiness is disproportionately valuable[1]. If a perfectly even stream of damage buff was just as valuable as a short, intense burst, every Blaster should value Assault higher than BU and Aim combined. [2]
Maybe burstiness is only of significant value to Blasters. [3] Maybe Blasters make suboptimal use of their bonus damage because they need it to make up for the lack of defense. Maybe the perceived benefits [4] are not enough to overcome the advantage of one or two REALLY good powers like AAO.
[1] Every casino loves a gambler who goes on gut instinct, don't they?
[2] "should" and "does" are dramatically different things, of course.
[3] It is interesting to watch Scrappers react to "really dangerous" enemies- I'm thinking Sappers in the good old days- because all of a sudden quick mezzes, burst damage, etc. is VERY important. It's like Blasters are, every minute of every fight.
[4] Burst bonus can be applied moving between spawns, it can augment an alpha or otherwise be strategically applied to the best attacks, and its advantages are magnified by the downtime between fights. AAO has essentially all of these advantages, of course.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
The entire BU argument above by Arcanaville is flawed because it doesn't necessarily resemble actual gameplay. It is all well and good to average the damage out over its recharge cycle but do people actually play this way?
For this to be true the following assumptions must be made:
1. That you are fighting continually without break or pause.
2. That you activate BU every time it is available, regardless of circumstances.
3. That you attack cycle and target selection are the same irrespective of you usage of BU.
It should be fairly clear to see that these assumptions are most certainly false.
1. A buff that lasts 10 seconds cannot be averaged out across its entire as this is not representative of how it is used in gameplay, nor how combat actually works either. Every moment spent moving between mobs without BU active will raise its effectiveness beyond Arcanaville's calculations.
2.
(a) For a ranged attacker especially, one will use BU prior to aggroing / engaging the mob hence the activation time doesn't matter.
(b) A melee attacker may choose between reaching the enemy first before using BU (in which case they do lose DPS during activation) or use it prior to attacking (in which case they lose some of the duration of BU whilst entering their engagement range). The effects for melee are thus going to be on personal preference of choice and the speed of which they can move from outside an enemies perception radius to within their own combat distance. It would be further complicated by the presence of ranged attacks (preferably AOE) which could be used mid-combat jumping into the mob and likely put them into the same ballpark as Ranged - where it can be activated prior to engagement, immediately followed by an AOE attack, at the conclusion of which they are in melee range.
3. Build Up is almost always going to be followed up by the heaviest AOE attack possible when engaging a mob of enemies. Because of the change in our behaviour and attack selection it will amplify total damage greater than what is predicted by a standardised attack chain.
The only instance where these calculations are to hold true is where the underlying assumptions are true. A very simple exercise is this - Put your hands up if you are fighting 100% of the time, without pause or break between mobs, activate Build Up regardless of circumstance or timing and never alter your attack chain to leverage the uptime of Build Up. If that's you, then those calculations are the ones to use.
Arcanaville:
I have a counterargument, but not enough math to support it. My gut feeling [flinch] is that burstiness is disproportionately valuable[1]. If a perfectly even stream of damage buff was just as valuable as a short, intense burst, every Blaster should value Assault higher than BU and Aim combined. [2] Maybe burstiness is only of significant value to Blasters. [3] Maybe Blasters make suboptimal use of their bonus damage because they need it to make up for the lack of defense. Maybe the perceived benefits [4] are not enough to overcome the advantage of one or two REALLY good powers like AAO. [1] Every casino loves a gambler who goes on gut instinct, don't they? [2] "should" and "does" are dramatically different things, of course. [3] It is interesting to watch Scrappers react to "really dangerous" enemies- I'm thinking Sappers in the good old days- because all of a sudden quick mezzes, burst damage, etc. is VERY important. It's like Blasters are, every minute of every fight. [4] Burst bonus can be applied moving between spawns, it can augment an alpha or otherwise be strategically applied to the best attacks, and its advantages are magnified by the downtime between fights. AAO has essentially all of these advantages, of course. |
So yeah, burst damage is an undervalued or even ignored metric of dealing damage. Few actually try to facilitate actually *killing* the foe in a few shots vs averaging a kill speed over a large number of foes. One is focused on now while the other basically retroactively measures performance as a whole. One can outperform DPS metrics 'now' and underperform 'later' but for the calculations used, no amount of burst outweights that period of underperformance.
Requiring targets in melee range is technically a limitation of AAO, but not a practical one for a power given to melee archetypes. Meanwhile its average strength is far higher than Build Ups because it doesn't cost activation time. Build Up costs 1.32s of zero damage for every +100% damage buff for 10s it grants. That cast time cost is often overlooked when computing BU's true damage over time benefit. For SO slotting, the simplified calculation not counting cast time for BU slotted down to 45s recharge is +22.2% damage buff, or about 11% net damage increase over time assuming approximately +100% damage slotting. But factoring in the cast time, BU's benefit drops to only 8% net damage increase or about +16% damage strength. AAO beats that with one target in range.
The theoretical maximum performance of Build Up, at the recharge cap of 500% recharge, is 1.32 idle, 10s of +100%, 8s of no buff. At approximately +100% damage slotting, that is +38% damage strength, or 19% more net total damage. If you can average four or more targets within AAO, you will beat the best that BU can do under the numerically best possible conditions. In PvE Fiery Embrace has the same uptime as Build Up and Aim: its up 20s with 180 recharge, which is identical uptime to Build Up's 10s of buff with 90s recharge. It also has lower cast time and far lower per cycle time. Slot BU with SOs and you spend about 2.8% of its total cast time rooted and unable to attack. FE slotted similarly spends only 1% of its total cycle time similarly rooted. The net result is that slotted with SOs, even though FE delivers a slightly lower buff (45% additional base damage vs BU's +100% damage strength, roughly 50% additional damage overall) it delivers more overall benefit: 8.9% vs BU's 8%. For all higher recharge regimes, FE gets increasingly better than BU. Power Siphon also beats BU, and many prior analyses of FU which are a bit more complex due it its effect on attack chains have concluded that FU is at worst equal to BU, and almost certainly better. I also get the feeling you think Blasters have a higher damage buff modifier than Scrappers. If so, that's false. Both have a 0.125 melee damage buff modifier. BU buffs both by +100% damage. Oh, but BU buffs Blaster tohit by 15% and Scrappers by 20%. That's because Scrappers have a tohit self buff modifier of 0.1 and Blasters have a tohit self buf modifier of 0.075. BU is always better for Scrappers than Blasters, albeit primarily in its accuracy improvement. Its equal in the damage area. Comparing Blaster secondaries to Scrapper primaries, every Blaster secondary has Build Up except for Devices (which has no comparable power) and Dark (which has Soul Drain). Every Scrapper primary also has Build Up (same damage buff, higher tohit buff) except Claws (Follow Up), Dual Blades (similar to FU), Dark Melee (Soul Drain), Kinetic Melee (Power Siphon), Staff (which has forms), Street Justice (whose BU analog buffs less damage but improves combos), and Titan Weapons (same). So if we consider BU to be the baseline, two Blaster secondaries are exceptional: Devices which is lower and Dark which is higher. If we assume Follow Up is no better than BU (and most analyses including mine over the years have said its likely better) then the exceptional Scrapper primaries become Dark and Kin which are both provably higher (than BU), and Staff, SJ, and TW. If we say Staff's self damage buff is lower, the question is where do SJ and TW fall. Given their self damage powers are intimately tied with combos, this is probably a non-trivial issue to convert into an apples to apples comparison, but its highly unlikely the net contribution of Combat Readiness and Build Momentum is to be significantly lower than BU. Particularly because they have about 2/3rds of the damage buff of BU besides their combo effects. Conservatively - very conservatively - this is a draw. In reality, FU is stronger than I'm giving credit for and SJ and TW are almost certainly better than I'm giving credit for, or just plain incomparable. Worst case scenario is a tie. Its almost certainly a win for Scrappers. That leaves the other side of the equation: Blaster primaries vs Scrapper secondaries. Here, Blasters do have more actual powers, but that power is Aim: Aim's damage buff is not very high in terms of net overall buff over time. Remember that BU was only increasing damage by 8% under SO conditions and its maximum possible benefit was only 19% (i.e. about +38% damage buff). Aim's going to be lower than that. And its competition is going to be Fiery Embrace and Against All Odds, both of which are stronger than Build Up, much less Aim. In fact, if you're thinking that a straight simple average across the board is the correct way to compare, then saturated AAO alone is going to come close to beating Aim across the board. Lets assume FE grants about 8.8% net damage, or about 17.6% damage strength equivalent, and AAO is saturated at +81.25%. That means averaged across nine scrapper secondaries that is about +11% damage buff. Aim's average buff slotted with SOs is about +7.8% damage buff. If every blaster primary had Aim, the average would be 7.8%. But AR and Dual Pistols don't. So unless you believe AR and Dual Pistols have something that is an equivalent to Aim but twice as strong, Scrappers are actually going to win this one also. Perhaps you think its unfair to presume AAO is saturated. So lets work backwards. The Blaster average with no Aim in AR and DP is actually +6.5% on average due to Aim. How many targets does AAO need to average for the Scrapper average to tie that value? Its when AAO is generating about +49.7% buff, which occurs at 5.4 targets. When Shield averages 5.4 targets in AAO, it and FE alone can combine to provide a greater average benefit to nine scrapper secondaries than Aim can when ten out of twelve blaster primaries have it. So even though all I said was that Scrappers get the strongest and the most variety of damage self buffs, if you want to average the self buff amounts for both Blasters and Scrappers, something I would not necessarily consider a valid comparison, Blasters still lose. |
If we're making a broad comparison between ATs then the median for both Primary and Secondary comparisons should involve coming up with a sum total of available buffs (over time) and divided by the number of sets available (For example; taking your AAO and Fiery Embrace average over equivalent time and dividing it by the nine sets available to come up with a better representation of the median buff available to melee to compare against the average Blaster buff over equivalent time divided by its twelve Primary sets).
If you're basing a higher AT buff off of one or two powers; then you may be providing misinformation for those who aren't using the sets that are utilizing those specific powers.
So an actual median needs to be determined on both primary and secondary side and a median for both determined... if my thoughts are in order on this.
[Someone mentioned burst/spike damage...; we could probably forgo the 'over equivalent time' portion' to come up with a median burst buff number]
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
So an actual median needs to be determined on both primary and secondary side and a median for both determined... if my thoughts are in order on this.
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But if you do want to go median, then you will also need to start including the other offensive benefits armored ATs get besides +damage.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
To be honest, I do not think the median was the primary point that Arcanaville was making. Rather, the fact is blasters do not get the best +damage buffs. That was the primary point. Blasters do not get Rage. They do not get AAO. Until recently they did not get Soul Drain. They don't get Accelerate Matabolism or Fulcrum Shift (not even just a personal version).
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But if you do want to go median, then you will also need to start including the other offensive benefits armored ATs get besides +damage. |
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
To be honest, I do not think the median was the primary point that Arcanaville was making. Rather, the fact is blasters do not get the best +damage buffs. That was the primary point. Blasters do not get Rage. They do not get AAO. Until recently they did not get Soul Drain. They don't get Accelerate Matabolism or Fulcrum Shift (not even just a personal version).
But if you do want to go median, then you will also need to start including the other offensive benefits armored ATs get besides +damage. |
Arcana's intent with that post was to demonstrate that, BU and Aim were never very good dmg buffs. It was why they offered so high and lossless a bonus, because they aren't that great in general circumstances.
IMO, I think sets like Street Justice, Titan Weapon and the upcoming Water Blast have it right, a buff that, while not great, is coupled with a strong set-specific bonus on top. BU and Aim are just standard buffs but Combat Readiness and Build Momentum are standard buffs *AND* improve their special attributes greatly and IMO again, outstrip whatever standard features BU/Aim manage.
That isn't to discount burst damage though. I think Stalker Kinetic Melee (and hopefully the new ATO) got it right with instant-recharging BU. It basically turns the prospect of using BU into a set speciality as using it means it's extra feature is recharging it again. This can facilitate using more bursts or emphasize a single burst all with the same mechanic.
I might have missed it, but I think folks forgot to mention the +DMG scrappers can get from their Shield Defense secondary, which beets Aim hands down if I'm not much mistaken...
I really should do something about this signature.
If we're going to compare an entire AT to another then a median should be taken. Comparing an entire ATs against a few outliers (positive or negative) skews the argument.
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Arcanaville listed a series of facts (only two of which are arguable), followed by the proposition that scrappers encroached on blaster damage, not that scrappers totally surpassed blaster damage. To the following list she made, remember to add my list from post 403.
Scrappers have a higher melee damage modifier than Blasters
cheat and use it for their primary and secondary ranged attacks where its equal to the Blaster ranged modifier
have even higher average base damage due to crits (this is arguable I guess, but the math I have done shows it to be generally true)
have the same damage strength cap
have a higher number of AoEs on average
have stronger self damage buffing powers on average (this is the crux of the current argument, and it is valid to discuss that having both Aim and Build Up is better than having Build Up plus any number of other tools scrappers have for increasing damage, but I think the scrappers come out ahead (in general), but that might be hard to prove to people who feel otherwise)
have higher DPA on average by design
having vastly superior damage mitigation on average
would you say its more likely they might encroach on Blaster offense?
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
That depends on the argument. If you are arguing that scrappers have better offense than blasters, true. If you are more simply arguing that scrappers have a smattering of better +damage powers than blasters and encroach on blaster offense, you likely do not need to go that far.
Arcanaville listed a series of facts (only two of which are arguable), followed by the proposition that scrappers encroached on blaster damage, not that scrappers totally surpassed blaster damage. To the following list she made, remember to add my list from post 403. |
[This allows me to make more informed dialogue/suggestions on this particular aspect. I don't want to be a trumpet for more Blaster damage if they don't need it... but I might be able to find better ways to deliver the damage they do have?]
Scrappers have a higher melee damage modifier than Blasters cheat and use it for their primary and secondary ranged attacks where its equal to the Blaster ranged modifier |
have even higher average base damage due to crits (this is arguable I guess, but the math I have done shows it to be generally true) |
have a higher number of AoEs on average |
have stronger self damage buffing powers on average (this is the crux of the current argument, and it is valid to discuss that having both Aim and Build Up is better than having Build Up plus any number of other tools scrappers have for increasing damage, but I think the scrappers come out ahead (in general), but that might be hard to prove to people who feel otherwise) |
[It may turn out that the overall median buffs provided may favor Scrappers (and I would be okay with that) but by 'showing the work'; I would be able to see the margin of difference.]
have higher DPA on average by design |
having vastly superior damage mitigation on average |
would you say its more likely they might encroach on Blaster offense? |
Especially when I can show off a Aim+BU+Nuke+(pills)+Burnout+Aim+BU+Nuke combo/[stagger/reset].
[back]
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
I am aware of the damage creep, however, my questioning stems from the fact that some players are claiming that this creep is somehow invalidating Blaster damage; making it mediocre. I kind of wanna see this on paper; Blasters' median rank compared to all ATs... not just Scrappers and Brutes.
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(previously queried) So, if we put together an average ranged Blaster chain vs an average melee Scrapper chain...?
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My experience with my Blaze mastery scrappers leads me to believe in the math that says scrapper crits have a significant impact on scrapper damage that in many cases makes them superior damage to blasters (Fireball crits make me go WOAH!)
My numbers say otherwise; the contention point being the average damage of the AoEs (Burst? DPS?)
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My skepticism at this point is that the stronger melee class buffs (Rage, Siphon, Follow Up, AAO, etc) are being presented as the norm but aren't being averaged in to give a realistic picture of expectation. (If we're going to tell a player to choose a Scrapper over a Blaster because Scrappers put out better damage buff numbers (based to AAO/FE) and they get all excited and roll a Staff/SR...
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First, anyone can take the damage of a power and divide it by the animation time and find the DPA of those powers. Second, when Arcanaville says she is not guessing on a design principle, it means a dev told her. You have to choose whether or not to believe her yourself. Melee attacks having better DPA than range attacks seems like a reasonable design principle, since you may have briefer time periods of possible interaction, you need to have better DPA (think PvP or Doom Patches in PvE).
To the point where its not a selling point any more for Blasters? I have yet to see that proven.
Especially when I can show off a Aim+BU+Nuke+(pills)+Burnout+Aim+BU+Nuke combo. |
I played my level 39 Shield/Electric tanker recently. I am unimpressed by what can be done to two spawns with nukes and Burnout after experiencing Lightning Rod + Shield Charge.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Why is that an interesting discussion? Do we really need to discuss obvious exaggeration or someone who talks out of context? It is likely when someone says blaster damage is mediocre, they mean mediocre compared to other ATs that specialize in damage or they are talking nonsense. I do not think it is a needed conversation to compare blaster damage to tanker damage and then go, well everything is fine, blasters do more DPA than defenders. Blaster damage should be compared to scrappers and brutes (and doms and stalkers and maybe corruptors), because those are the other ATs designed to inflict damage primarily. Why do you want to compare their damage to other ATs that are not designed to primarily deal damage? What does it demonstrate if at least blasters can usually outdamage Peacebringers?
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Go ahead. But that is more to the point of the DPA discussion below. This fact is simply stating that scrappers have the best melee and ranged damage mod. Nothing more. These are examples of where blasters could have a clear lead, but instead the waters are muddy. |
My experience with my Blaze mastery scrappers leads me to believe in the math that says scrapper crits have a significant impact on scrapper damage that in many cases makes them superior damage to blasters (Fireball crits make me go WOAH!) |
But that is not the statement that was made. The statement is simply that scrappers on average have more AoEs. That is a fact. Size of the AoEs, target limits, and damage output do not change that fact. Again, this is an example of where blasters could have a clear edge, but instead the waters are muddy. |
Blasters: 57 across 19 sets [not counting 'narrow cones' or Disintegration Spread]
Scrappers: 47 across 24 sets
not in total; not on average.
Hmmm. SR gets +recharge and slow resists. +20% recharge almost assuredly has a bigger impact on damage output than Aim. |
And those other stronger melee class buffs are not being presented as the norm. They are simply being stated as EXISTING for non-blasters. Not as the norm, but as possible to have. |
First, anyone can take the damage of a power and divide it by the animation time and find the DPA of those powers. Second, when Arcanaville says she is not guessing on a design principle, it means a dev told her. You have to choose whether or not to believe her yourself. Melee attacks having better DPA than range attacks seems like a reasonable design principle, since you may have briefer time periods of possible interaction, you need to have better DPA (think PvP or Doom Patches in PvE). |
No reasonable person is saying blaster damage is poor. Simply that it is not all that much better or not at all better than other damage dealers. |
I played my level 39 Shield/Electric tanker recently. I am unimpressed by what can be done to two spawns with nukes and Burnout after experiencing Lightning Rod + Shield Charge. |
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[To me, this is kind of like the 'tip' argument in Reservoir Dogs.
Is it going to be a matter of "Fine, you've convinced me not to play a Blaster." or is this whole thing irrelevant to the point where I just end up throwing my money on the table anyhow.]
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
No reasonable person is saying blaster damage is poor. Simply that it is not all that much better or not at all better than other damage dealers.
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As Arcanaville has said before the majority of damage output in the blaster arsenal is in the 0-40 feet range. That small amount of range (in my experience mobs can close that distance in the time it takes most of non-tier 1 or 2 powers to animate) is no where near enough of an advantage to justify the difference either, nor are the 2 combined enough to justify it.*
This is why I've said that its difficult to separate the 2 issues.
*This doesn't even factor in the mez issue to which scrappers (in normal content) are essentially immune, and blasters are more affected than any other AT by a factor of at least 2-3.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Actually, that statement was made and no; Scrappers do not have more AoEs: Blasters: 57 across 19 sets [not counting 'narrow cones' or Disintegration Spread] Scrappers: 47 across 24 sets not in total; not on average. For DPS? Yes. For Burst? No. Funny thing is, when I was actually defending Form of the Mind vs. Form of the Body using the same argument; I was getting shot down on the basis of effect on burst damage. But if we are to use it then its impact on both DP types need to be quantified and averaged in; just like the other damage buffs powers. |
To my mind the answer is one and none. But I think you're doing any attack that has any aoe component so 3 and 3.
As far as damage buffs I'm really not getting the point. In a group the kin/assaults/etc make them less relevant. In a small group or single setting the buff isn't significant enough to be up every spawn and burst down an entire spawn before they can react much. To me burst damage doesn't have a whole lot of relevance in pve if it doesn't offer a defense advantage. At least in the sense of blasters.
Establishing a baseline and seeing whether Blasters are above or below it given their role.
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So, as someone stated prior; largely irrelevant? (as a reply to my inquiry of relevance... and as long as it keeps coming up, I will continue to question its relevance.)
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When a crit occurs, I'm sure its an amazing thing (love them on my Stalkers) but if your Fireball only crits, on average, 8% of the time then you're only getting a 12% bonus to your lifetime (whatever power) damage vs a Blaster's, on average, 28% Defiance bonus
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link please, I am missing where average damage of the AoEs was discussed rather than just the number of AoEs they had access to.
Yeah, I am not sure what was meant by that. My numbers differ from yours (blasters get 68 AoEs across primary and secondaries, scrappers get 62 across primaries and secondaries), but I still get blasters averaging more AoEs than scrappers, specifically most blaster combinations can access more AoEs than most scrapper combinations.
I did not include APPs (and scrapper APPs do have more damage oriented AoEs than blasters, but blasters do have a fair smattering of AoE effects in their APPs) and I included every AoE effect, things like Invincibility and Lightning Clap were not excluded. Arcanaville will have to clarify her intent, because it seems the statement is incorrect.
For DPS? Yes. For Burst? No. Funny thing is, when I was actually defending Form of the Mind vs. Form of the Body using the same argument; I was getting shot down on the basis of effect on burst damage. But if we are to use it then its impact on both DP types need to be quantified and averaged in; just like the other damage buffs powers.
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I do like Aim and Build Up a lot, and having both is indeed nice and I can't imagine not having them. However, it is hard to deny the potentcy of Build Up and AAO or maybe Power Siphon and Fiery Embrace (although FE's recharge is too long for an AT that depends so heavily on that kind of buff, IMO) or Build Up and Lightning Reflexes+Lightning Field.
You just can't state that Melees excel in damage buffs by saying, "Although 76% of Blaster Primaries and 86% of their Secondaries have a buff power; it all moot because Kinetic melee has Siphon Power."
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So everybody should run out and roll Shield/Electric; Electric/Shield as opposed to any and all Blasters or other melee combinations?
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Indeed. Or everyone should take blast sets with true nukes, secondaries with Build Up, as well as make sure to take Burnout. Because that was the obvious point my example was making, that we should all conform to one ideal...
Or maybe I was just saying that your example of blaster nuking wasn't pertinent nor as potent as you thought? Nah, more likely I was suggesting the devs should turn off all other powerset combinations besides Shield/Electric.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Rather than count them all out myself I thought I'd ask a quick question since you're earlier counts seemed inflated to me. Or if you prefer what you call an aoe attack I wouldn't. So how many aoe's does sonic have? How many does darkness mastery?
To my mind the answer is one and none. But I think you're doing any attack that has any aoe component so 3 and 3. As far as damage buffs I'm really not getting the point. In a group the kin/assaults/etc make them less relevant. In a small group or single setting the buff isn't significant enough to be up every spawn and burst down an entire spawn before they can react much. To me burst damage doesn't have a whole lot of relevance in pve if it doesn't offer a defense advantage. At least in the sense of blasters. |
***Example: Sonic has four AoEs; although you may be discounting the sleep attack, the KB attack and the nuke... I do not.
Dreadful Wail (as with most Blaster nukes) are the epitome of burst damage that offer a defensive advantage (in most cases); overshadowed by Judgement powers (vs an unboosted nuke).
Siren's Song (sans the sleep component) does moderate damage on its own; increased by 20% when used as a follow up to Howl.
Shockwave might be ignored now as part of a normal AoE chain because of the KB component (situational power; although ranged classes are less impacted by the effect than melee classes) but wait til everybody starts clamoring for the Universal Damage procs.
In addition to being able to slot procs; now that we have Incarnate abilities that can add more significance to the underused and the meh I would hesitate to trivialize any damage having AoE power that can add to a kill count.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
I'm counting all AoEs in this. Distinctions beyond that are defined by playstyle and has no impact on existence. My playstyle allows me to use mitigative or recovery AoEs as damage tools even if the mitigation or recovery isn't needed.
***Example: Sonic has four AoEs; although you may be discounting the sleep attack, the KB attack and the nuke... I do not. Dreadful Wail (as with most Blaster nukes) are the epitome of burst damage that offer a defensive advantage (in most cases); overshadowed by Judgement powers (vs an unboosted nuke). Siren's Song (sans the sleep component) does moderate damage on its own; increased by 20% when used as a follow up to Howl. Shockwave might be ignored now as part of a normal AoE chain because of the KB component (situational power; although ranged classes are less impacted by the effect than melee classes) but wait til everybody starts clamoring for the Universal Damage procs. In addition to being able to slot procs; now that we have Incarnate abilities that can add more significance to the underused and the meh I would hesitate to trivialize any damage having AoE power that can add to a kill count. |
Thanks for clarifying. I never hit consume on my fire tank or fire blaster as a damage tool nor think of it as part of their aoe damage package but maybe you do. Different outlooks.
Edit: I can't help but think that being that general makes the # of aoe kinda pointless though. I mean after all a sonic/energy blaster would have more aoe's than a ss/fire brute but it doesn't even remotely reflect their aoe capabilities
So, I had this all nice and replied to... but the stupid dog unplugged my router and I lost it all.
But you can compare them to scrappers and brutes and figure that out. You do not need to compare them to all other ATs as well.
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I'm willing to use your short list provided we add Stalkers, Corrs and SoAs to it as well (high damage dealers).
I don't think the base damage mods are largely irrelevant. I think they are one of many points of reference. |
Maybe I don't play right, but I am fairly confident my blasters do not get an average of 28% increase in damage from defiance, especially my level 50 blasters. |
[Edit: Edit: Just rolled and am running a level 2 Sonic/NRG; with just the first 3 attacks, I can maintain a 30.80% Defiance buff with a global 30% recharge; pushing up into the 35,37 and 41.80% range (assuming I don't miss and not counting the -Res (which doesn't show up in the Combat Attributes Monitor))
At level four (base recharge (let Quick Reflexes expire)), I'm maintaining a 29.70% Defiance buff]
link please, I am missing where average damage of the AoEs was discussed rather than just the number of AoEs they had access to. |
Yeah, I am not sure what was meant by that. My numbers differ from yours (blasters get 68 AoEs across primary and secondaries, scrappers get 62 across primaries and secondaries), but I still get blasters averaging more AoEs than scrappers, specifically most blaster combinations can access more AoEs than most scrapper combinations. I did not include APPs (and scrapper APPs do have more damage oriented AoEs than blasters, but blasters do have a fair smattering of AoE effects in their APPs) and I included every AoE effect, things like Invincibility and Lightning Clap were not excluded. Arcanaville will have to clarify her intent, because it seems the statement is incorrect. |
This can get tricky, but having your best attacks back faster can also improve burst damage, since you can more often use them. However, in general I find rotating Aim and Build Up even on a non-recharge intensive build allows me access to one of those buffs 2 out 3 spawns (Build Up spawn A, Aim on spawn B, neither are recharged for spawn C) and with some focus on recharge every spawn. |
I do like Aim and Build Up a lot, and having both is indeed nice and I can't imagine not having them. However, it is hard to deny the potentcy of Build Up and AAO or maybe Power Siphon and Fiery Embrace (although FE's recharge is too long for an AT that depends so heavily on that kind of buff, IMO) or Build Up and Lightning Reflexes+Lightning Field. No one said that, what was said was the damage buffs that scrappers have access to are stronger on average (taken individually). Scrappers have access to Build Up, but also a smattering of better +damage powers than Aim or Build Up. |
I would be providing misinformation if I used Sonic as my fallback position when addressing across the board Blaster buffs (unless I were applying it to the overall median)
[Hopefully, I'm keeping the following in context, as to how I'm perceiving the references made to AAO, FE, etc]:
These are interesting (and sometimes powerful) extras.
In any case, for Siren's Song to be a good counter-example to the more general statement that Blasters don't get mitigation powersets, it should be valid to say that any primary blast set that doesn't have mitigation comparable to Siren's Song is broken, in terms of not fulfilling its design obligation. No one says that. |
***
In the future, if you refrain from the above type of silly comment, I will not respond in kind. For now though: Indeed. Or everyone should take blast sets with true nukes, secondaries with Build Up, as well as make sure to take Burnout. Because that was the obvious point my example was making, that we should all conform to one ideal... Or maybe I was just saying that your example of blaster nuking wasn't pertinent nor as potent as you thought? Nah, more likely I was suggesting the devs should turn off all other powerset combinations besides Shield/Electric. |
And, yes, I may have been a bit snarky but that seems to be the trend of the discussion; pitting a specific circumstance as a discredit to to an opposing median.
*Second time around (plus interruptions); my thoughts may not have come off like they did initially
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Not sure why you are factoring either of these in. Free players get neither as do some premium players and no premium player gets incarnate powers. They should not even be part of your thought process since these players CAN access blasters.
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Also, I have two 50 blasters, one because he was fun to play (my fire/ice) one because I was determined to see if I could make him suck less with a max level IO uber-build (my ar/dev).
Neither of them has a lick of Incarnate-ness slotted, although my fire/ice has unlocked the alpha & is running the DA stuff, so he'll eventually get a taste.
But it's no answer to any of the issues plaguing blasters.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
=p
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone