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What can you do with a problem like a Blaster?

Adeon Hawkwood

By Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-05 15:04 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Next on my list to think about after we see what happens to Blasters. Its a non-trivial problem to just make go away, because its left an enormous footprint on a huge number of powers that can't just all be changed now, and a lot of things have been subsequently balanced around a world where that happens to be true.
tinkerers gonna tinker, yo!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alekhine View Post
tinkerers gonna tinker, yo!
Everyone's gotta have a hobby.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alekhine View Post
No, that is not at all what I am saying. What I am saying is the AT should not be 'broken' by turning it into something else after all this time. In other words, no I don't agree with a complete overhaul of the secondaries, I don't agree with turning a blaster into a reverse dominator, I don't agree with having a blaster inherently having the survivability of a melee class. Really, what needs to be done here, would have to be a fresh idea. That would allow blasters to remain blasters. I am speaking for myself, I don't want to lose that style of play.
Yea, on second reading I get that more, though I still get a, "Well some ATs/Powersets will always be better," message from that comment I quoted.

I'm not a huge fan of all of the suggestions myself either, but at this point I'm more willing to take any improvement to the AT so long as its primary goal in the game is to blast things.

MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alekhine View Post
Really, what needs to be done here, would have to be a fresh idea. That would allow blasters to remain blasters. I am speaking for myself, I don't want to lose that style of play.
Lets say that blasters had their HP boosted. So high it made them just lightly less survivable than a stalker. Let's say they also get inherent mez protection, very low mag, like 3, to some effects, not all.

Would blasters stop being blasters if they did that?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare View Post
Mez still pertains to the survivability aspect that I was excluding for this particular line of questioning (and it is a pitfall shared, to some extent, by Controllers, Doms, Defenders, Corrs and Khelds; ie almost all the ranged sets... which would make that point largely non-applicable anyhow)
I wasn't talking from a survivability point. I was talking from a damage output point. (Though it is hard to separate the two)

Most of the other ATs you mentioned can avoid mez much more easily than can a blaster (and have a better chance of living through it but that's an aside in this discussion). While mezzed the blaster can't activate Aim or Build up. The benefit from assault is lost and the blaster's defiance buff is greatly diminished.

ALL of that while alive and still able to fire the tier 1 and 2 primary and the tier 1 secondary (provided the target is in range of the primary powers but notably the secondary power). Which are often the lowest DPA attacks available.

That defeat frequently results shortly thereafter you can factor in or out as you wish.

-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
And this is a pretty darn fun one to have!
Truth!

-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight View Post
Truth!
Eight years and I keep coming back for more.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Eight years and I keep coming back for more.
I think it's the only thing I do in these forums...

Needless to say I have been disapointed I still have not seen a single balance discussion/argument in the Tanker forums since I returned. Every single thread is about X/Y builds.

I ponder if all tankers are content these days, the ones that were discontent just rolled brutes, or it was me that was always starting the fights...

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
I think it's the only thing I do in these forums...

Needless to say I have been disapointed I still have not seen a single balance discussion/argument in the Tanker forums since I returned. Every single thread is about X/Y builds.

I ponder if all tankers are content these days, the ones that were discontent just rolled brutes, or it was me that was always starting the fights...
There weren't really any going on in the Blaster forums either until I decided to start shaking the cage a while back. Part of it is that the devs seem to have been on a slow rolling sweep through the archetypes and as each gets attention from the devs most of the discussion shifts in that direction, and part of it is that a lot more discussion is about content than powers and game balance, and part of it is that all tanker balance discussions these days end up being about how Johnny_Butane defines tankers.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
....and part of it is that all tanker balance discussions these days end up being about how Johnny_Butane defines tankers.
it's funny cuz it's true....

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
I think it's the only thing I do in these forums...

Needless to say I have been disapointed I still have not seen a single balance discussion/argument in the Tanker forums since I returned. Every single thread is about X/Y builds.

I ponder if all tankers are content these days, the ones that were discontent just rolled brutes, or it was me that was always starting the fights...
I think it's mostly the effect of incarnate abilities. I don't think tankers have any huge problems aside from a total lack of stackability...until IOs and the endgame come into the equation. At that point they suffer some of the same issues as blasters in that they're heavily specialized in something that other ATs can get "enough" of to handle current content, but don't get as much of what other ATs have, be it damage, control, or whatever, to compensate.

However, a lot of the new incarnate stuff really muddies the issue because now tankers can get "enough" damage to take out current content in a more reasonable amount of time. It doesn't mean that tankers don't still have stackability and damage issues when compared to brutes. In fact, looking right now at my SS tanker vs my SS brute, the brute does almost twice as much AoE damage while also not dying on most +4 x8 groups. But when the damage difference isn't completely in your face all of the time like it was before interface et al it's much less frustrating, and so you have less of a reason to post about it.

The focus is definitely on blasters right now, though, which may also be drawing interest away from tankers. As it should, since their balance issues are far more serious. Tanker issues start in the endgame, but blaster issues seem to start in the 20s-30s.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Starsman View Post
I think it's the only thing I do in these forums...

Needless to say I have been disapointed I still have not seen a single balance discussion/argument in the Tanker forums since I returned. Every single thread is about X/Y builds.

I ponder if all tankers are content these days, the ones that were discontent just rolled brutes, or it was me that was always starting the fights...
I think it was the Consolidated Tanker Improvements thread that really ended a lot of the fights there. It basically gave everyone a single place to just put any idea they had to improve Tankers. And once we heard back from the Devs that they were looking there for when Tankers got their looking at, I think it really ended a lot of the perceived notion that if we just scream loud enough, the Devs will hear us.

We've basically come up with a lot of ideas for the Devs to explore, but now it's just a waiting game to see when Tankers get a balance pass. I think that most Tankers understand that Stalkers and Blasters are worse off. But once Blasters get their look, Tankers will probably scream for their chance next.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Under current conditions, maybe.

If I said Scrappers have a higher melee damage modifier than Blasters, cheat and use it for their primary and secondary ranged attacks where its equal to the Blaster ranged modifier, and have even higher average base damage due to crits, have the same damage strength cap, have a higher number of AoEs on average, have stronger self damage buffing powers on average, *and* have higher DPA on average by design** on top of having vastly superior damage mitigation on average, would you say its more likely they might encroach on Blaster offense?
I'd say "Yes, yes, yes, yes, maybe, no, no, on top of absolutely, yes."

That is: Despite Scrappers having slightly higher damage per DS, I think Blasters with a reasonable melee set, at melee range, will outdamage Scrappers in single target. Scrappers turn out to have more AOE (and all the new sets look dramatically better than all the old sets, especially in AOE; how did that happen? ) but Blasters can apply that AOE to more targets more easily. And all Scrappers get is six-plus times the survivability.

I did a quick look at a most/many blaster* vs a BS/most in City of Data, in single target damage, and the blaster looked like about 10-20% more DPS over the first few seconds of the fight because it has fast, heavy hitters in both the primary and the secondary.

I'm a little surprised by the claim that Scrappers have stronger self damage buffs: care to elaborate?

* typical tier-3 having primary, /elec or /en or /ice secondary.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alekhine View Post
I completely agree with what you are saying here. Personally, I don't need blaster changes, as I am very happy how my old broken down blaster plays. But, I conceded to some changes back on ... eh, the 4th page or so of this thread. Chances are, I'll adapt and be fine with them, who knows maybe I'll like them better. But, there have been some exaggerated claims made in this thread, both on the side of blaster weaknesses. And, on the side of what that fix could or should be. I think whatever this change is, it should remain very close to what the blaster playstyle has been for years now.
I can totally agree with this suggestion. If changes are made to an AT as a whole, utmost care should be taken to keep the set as close to functionally the same, and as close in play style, as can be.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Fulmens View Post
I did a quick look at a most/many blaster* vs a BS/most in City of Data, in single target damage, and the blaster looked like about 10-20% more DPS over the first few seconds of the fight because it has fast, heavy hitters in both the primary and the secondary.

I'm a little surprised by the claim that Scrappers have stronger self damage buffs: care to elaborate?

* typical tier-3 having primary, /elec or /en or /ice secondary.

That's what I'm trying to figure out myself:

Arcana is applying crit damage as part of the base which I don't agree with because the crit is a bonus variable dependent on other variables.

There's gotta be an (average activation/bonus over time vs. Rank<=Minions and and average activation/bonus over time vs. Rank>Minions)/average spawn [rank] (some kind of ratio equation?)?

Which then should be leveraged against the average Defiance bonus over time.

*************************************

The (favored) melee damage scale for Scrappers is equivalent to the (favored) ranged damage scale for Blasters but the Blaster melee scale is more than double that of the Scrapper ranged scale. [relevant?]

*************************************

For AoEs; Blasters average a bit over 2 per Primary (not counting Nukes or Beam Rifle Disintegration spread) and almost 3 per Secondary; while Scrappers average a bit over 2 per Primary and less than 1 per Secondary. (I haven't done any damage averages for the AoEs)

*************************************

Except in 3 cases; Blasters can better leverage their 'BU' buffs over time than Scrappers

*************************************


So, at a glance...


Blasters seem to have the higher base damage...

Blasters have more AoE (although I do not have the info to state which AT actually puts out more AoE damage on average)

At this time, I don't have the info to make a judgement call on Inherent bonuses over time...

Blasters have more set based [damage] buff powers and can utilize them better over time than Scrappers

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare View Post
The (favored) melee damage scale for Scrappers is equivalent to the (favored) ranged damage scale for Blasters but the Blaster melee scale is more than double that of the Scrapper ranged scale. [relevant?]
This isn't relevant since Scrappers cheat and use their Melee damage scale for Ranged attacks (why they do that as opposed to just having a higher ranged damage modifier I do not know).

 

Posted

Yogi :
Blaster melee damage multiplier is 1.0 . Blaster range multiplier and scrapper "melee" multiplier (as Arcanaville points out, which is used for all their range attacks) is 1.125 . Not "twice". While Blaster melee attacks may tend to be harder-hitting, that's a higher damage scale on the individual attack. (damage scale * damage multiplier * a level-based number = total damage.)

Crit damage is between 5% and 10% of the total (I used 8% but it's not like 7% or even 6% is going to change the numbers that much.) Pick a number in the middle and it's going to be plenty close for our purposes.

For AoEs, you can't say an AOE is an AOE is an AOE. Fire Breath is something like 60% more damage than, say, Energy Torrent. Scrappers have a LOT of high damage PBAOE's and cones. I'm also not sure how you're coming up with the high number of "AOEs" per secondary; the only ones I get any leverage out of, and this may be my playstyle, are Fire Sword Circle and Psychic Scream and Psychic Shockwave.

EDIT: Do Scrappers have a really terrible ranged scale [that they never use]? I failed to keep that piece of data in my mind.

Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.

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Posted

On the subject of mid-to-high level survivability (abandoning Blasters in the 30 level range); did the earlier access change to EPPs impact that in any way?

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*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulmens View Post
I'd say "Yes, yes, yes, yes, maybe, no, no, on top of absolutely, yes."

That is: Despite Scrappers having slightly higher damage per DS, I think Blasters with a reasonable melee set, at melee range, will outdamage Scrappers in single target. Scrappers turn out to have more AOE (and all the new sets look dramatically better than all the old sets, especially in AOE; how did that happen? ) but Blasters can apply that AOE to more targets more easily. And all Scrappers get is six-plus times the survivability.
Except that wasn't nine questions, but one: what if every single one was true simultaneously?

And while lots of people have, over the years, opined that blaster aoe was somehow better tactically, that blaster damage was somehow stronger visually, that blaster offense was superior apparently, the fact that those conjectures have to be true against the fact that practically every base number the devs have control over do *not* grant blasters those advantages is telling.


Quote:
I'm a little surprised by the claim that Scrappers have stronger self damage buffs: care to elaborate?
These are the damage self buffs available to Blasters:

Build Up (and its clones)
Aim (and its clones)
Soul Drain


And for Scrappers:

Build Up (and its clones)
Follow Up (and its clones)
Soul Drain
Power Siphon
Fiery Embrace
Against All Odds

That doesn't count things like Form of the Body, and if you throw Brutes in there you also have Rage. So Blasters get Aim which Scrappers don't get. Scrappers get Follow Up, Power Siphon, Fiery Embrace, and Against All Odds which Blasters don't get. I'd say Scrappers get a much more diverse, much more interesting, and numerically much stronger set of damage self buff powers.

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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Power Siphon
Separate topic, sort off, but since I saw Kinetic Melee I been thinking those animations would also apply perfectly to a blaster set and been pondering: why don't we have a Kinetic Blast yet???

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulmens View Post
Yogi :
Blaster melee damage multiplier is 1.0 . Blaster range multiplier and scrapper "melee" multiplier (as Arcanaville points out, which is used for all their range attacks) is 1.125 . Not "twice". While Blaster melee attacks may tend to be harder-hitting, that's a higher damage scale on the individual attack. (damage scale * damage multiplier * a level-based number = total damage.)
So, it averages out (listed scales should be udpated to reflect that) and may be somewhat irrelevant?

Quote:
Crit damage is between 5% and 10% of the total (I used 8% but it's not like 7% or even 6% is going to change the numbers that much.) Pick a number in the middle and it's going to be plenty close for our purposes.
Your 8% is the damage provided over time? vs. __% for Defiance (your numbers; I could consistently push 25-30% (considering the time it takes to build up to that amount) with a level 12 attack chain at base recharge (assuming a higher % with a more fluid chain and better recharge?)

Quote:
For AoEs, you can't say an AOE is an AOE is an AOE. Fire Breath is something like 60% more damage than, say, Energy Torrent. Scrappers have a LOT of high damage PBAOE's and cones. I'm also not sure how you're coming up with the high number of "AOEs" per secondary; the only ones I get any leverage out of, and this may be my playstyle, are Fire Sword Circle and Psychic Scream and Psychic Shockwave.
There are other hard damage AoEs like Shadow Maul, Trip Mine, Thunderstrike, Combustion and Burn. Then there's the Damage Auras (including stackable Caltrops with this group). Situational powers like Time Bomb. Utility powers that do moderate damage (although you're not going to want to rely on these for DPS); Soul Drain, Dark Consumption, Consume... I didn't include Gun Drone (wasn't sure how to classify it).

Quote:
EDIT: Do Scrappers have a really terrible ranged scale [that they never use]? I failed to keep that piece of data in my mind.
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Damage_Scale#Damage_Scale

Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
These are the damage self buffs available to Blasters:

Build Up (and its clones)
Aim (and its clones)
Soul Drain


And for Scrappers:

Build Up (and its clones)
Follow Up (and its clones)
Soul Drain
Power Siphon
Fiery Embrace
Against All Odds

That doesn't count things like Form of the Body, and if you throw Brutes in there you also have Rage. So Blasters get Aim which Scrappers don't get. Scrappers get Follow Up, Power Siphon, Fiery Embrace, and Against All Odds which Blasters don't get. I'd say Scrappers get a much more diverse, much more interesting, and numerically much stronger set of damage self buff powers.
I question how you choose to group/present your buff list.

I'm looking at it as:

on average (in a majority of cases) Blasters have a damage buffer in their primary (which is comparable to most ATs (including melee) that have sets that provide damage buff powers (with 3 notable set exceptions (one of which can be dependent on RNG) and one notable AT exception; Stalkers (technically having two damage buff powers)

on average (in a majority of cases) Blasters also have a damage buff power in their secondaries (which outstrips whats available in most melee ATs; even where secondary buffs are available (Fiery Embrace's longer recharge and Against All Odds' dependence on targets). Dominators also have this leverage in about half of their sets while the debuff AT classes have methods that allow them to leverage a better buff over time in their secondaries than what is provided in the melee secondaries.


Question is, IMO, who does the law of averages favor, over time, (AT wise; set wise) when it comes to powers based damage buffs by rank?


[Edit: flip flop Blaster Secondary damage buff vs. melee Primary/Blaster Primary vs. melee Secondary (except bass-ackwards Tankers)]

Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars

 

Posted

All this talk about scrapper's and ranged modifiers got me tinkering in Mid's with a ranged scrapper build...

It's pretty decent from the look of it... nothing eye popping mind you but:

Kinetic/EA/Body Scrapper
soft capped to s/l/e and almost soft capped to f/c 35% vs negative 17% vs psi
Has comprehensive status protection
Regenerates about 52 HP per sec

Primary ranged attacks:
Focused Burst - 68 yd range, 327 damage, 2.46s recharge
Laser Beam Eyes - 96 yd range, 256 damage, 1.76s recharge
Repulsing Torrent - 67 yd range, 237 damage, 4.34s recharge
Energy Torrent - 67 yd range, 240 damage, 8.68s recharge

Melee attacks:
Body Blow - 239 damage, 1.69s recharge
Concentrated Strike - 592 damage, 6.78s recharge

Seems interesting enough that I may need to try and build it >_>

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