What can you do with a problem like a Blaster?
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-06-05 15:04 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Actually, I'm wondering why you could say something I described as "miraculous" wasn't, and use as an example something completely irrelevant, and then decide to discuss the minutia of that example, and then wonder why I'm still talking about it.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
And you're explaining all this to describe your disbelief of it being doable on a Blaster?
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I guess the answer to your question is no, that was not why I was explaining all of that, and in retrospect there was no good reason to explain any of that.
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I'm making a point out of it because it's dumb to describe it as anymore 'miraculous' than *anything* non-Blaster doing it. If it is miraculous, then a Scrapper or Dominator soloing the same spawn is just as, if you're going to make sideways sarcastic remarks about it.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, I'm wondering why you could say something I described as "miraculous" wasn't, and use as an example something completely irrelevant, and then decide to discuss the minutia of that example, and then wonder why I'm still talking about it.
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I'm saying it's not miraculous. It's just a build. It's like being amazed that 2+2 = 4. Why would you be surprised, in awe, skeptical, disbelieving or whatever about facts?
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Are you asking a question this time?
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
I'm making a point out of it because it's dumb to describe it as anymore 'miraculous' than *anything* non-Blaster doing it. If it is miraculous, then a Scrapper or Dominator soloing the same spawn is just as, if you're going to make sideways sarcastic remarks about it.
I'm saying it's not miraculous. It's just a build. It's like being amazed that 2+2 = 4. Why would you be surprised, in awe, skeptical, disbelieving or whatever about facts? |
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A blaster has only a 1 wood and a putter to his name. They might be able to cobble a bent 5 iron out of pool powers, a cheap pitching wedge with a loose head out of really expensive IOS, and a caddy out of incarnate powers, but that's about the extent of it.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I can't consider the use of tactics cheating. I have 14 clubs in my golf bag, I select the best mix for the course I am playing on. If the course has bad sand traps, is it cheating to put a sand wedge in the mix ?
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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This time? I was asking questions for you to clarify the other times too.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Are you asking a question this time?
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Except that its not all that easy to hit an MI with web grenade because they phase and it requires that you stand in the mine patch as "bait" until they phase in. I merely mention it for those that don't know that the RUN step is not required if you use the tools available (few though they may be).
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Even Better, but some here might call that cheating.
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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First, the comment wasn't about soloing the spawn, but rather about mezzing it. Soloing (a mission full of) +4 / x8 Carnies on a blaster is way impressive (to me). Locking them down would be miraculous (My Sonic/Nrg with Power Boost and Boost Range might be able to if I get lucky on the phasing), even moreso on a an Ice/*/Electric.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I'm making a point out of it because it's dumb to describe it as anymore 'miraculous' than *anything* non-Blaster doing it. If it is miraculous, then a Scrapper or Dominator soloing the same spawn is just as, if you're going to make sideways sarcastic remarks about it.
I'm saying it's not miraculous. It's just a build. It's like being amazed that 2+2 = 4. Why would you be surprised, in awe, skeptical, disbelieving or whatever about facts? |
Second, soloing +4 /x8 Carnie spawns requires paying attention on several other ATs, but is not nearly as impressive. My WP tanker can herd them up and I can walk away, but he is an exception (he also can be killed when I walk away, but it usually takes a long time until I get an unlucky streak of -regen). I haven't tried with my Fire/Rad/Earth controller since I got Clarion, it would be pretty extreme and difficult, but with modest inspiration use I think possible. With difficulty I can pull it off on my Kat/Invuln/Power, but I do not know if I could ever get good enough to not die every third spawn or so (the potential is there, a better player could likely succeed).
I just tried it on my dominator and I was dying every other spawn, but that was better than I expected. Perhaps with practice I might be able to do well (I kept not using my Judgement, never pulled out my Lore, didn't properly rotate my holds while the MIs were unphased, not using Power Boost, and lots of other little things that make me think a better player could do it).
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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In that event:|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
This time? I was asking questions for you to clarify the other times too.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
I'm making a point out of it because it's dumb to describe it as anymore 'miraculous' than *anything* non-Blaster doing it. If it is miraculous, then a Scrapper or Dominator soloing the same spawn is just as, if you're going to make sideways sarcastic remarks about it.
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That's not a sideways sarcastic remark. That's an actual statement of fact. Which brings me to:
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| I'm saying it's not miraculous. It's just a build. It's like being amazed that 2+2 = 4. Why would you be surprised, in awe, skeptical, disbelieving or whatever about facts? |
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| For all I know the OP is playing ICE/*/Electric and using 2 holds to lockdown the boss. |
Now, its bad enough for most anything that doesn't have direct psionic resistance or defense, but at least melee archetypes won't be instantly held. Most blasters will, if they face that spawn with that sort of tactics.
Another fact I tried to point out is that nothing you do at +1x6 is remotely meaningful. You're far more likely to face only one or two bosses rather than two to three bosses, and the entire spawn will be hitting you less often for less damage. Your damage and mez will be significantly more effective: 88% stronger due to the purple patch, or almost twice as strong. That's damage, mez duration, all strength effects. At +4, Bitter Freeze Ray's base hold time is only 4.6 seconds. Even if you're normally walking around with 300% hold time, that's only 13.8 seconds and that has to stack with another hold to affect a boss.
Those facts add up to the fact that nothing you do at +1x6 has anything to do with +4x8. It would be no different if I said it would be a miracle if an Ice/Energy could bring down a level 50 giant monster with just its own damage without some form of regen debuff, and you said that since you can bring down an Elite Boss with Ice/Energy it should be no more miraculous if Ice/Energy brought down a GM. Its a mathematical fact that's an equally irrelevant situation: the threshold damage numbers are too different to make them remotely analogous.
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Oddly enough, I find soloing at x8 easier than x4 or so (+0 mind you). With that many bodies dropping inspirations, I can actually keep the skittle defense and healing going the whole map as long as I don't need to slow down.
The Bacon Compels You.
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Indeed. It gets tougher as the level increases because you need more inspirations to survive and the enemies die much slower, so you do not get enough incoming inspires.
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Originally Posted by JohnnyKilowatt
Oddly enough, I find soloing at x8 easier than x4 or so (+0 mind you). With that many bodies dropping inspirations, I can actually keep the skittle defense and healing going the whole map as long as I don't need to slow down.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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And frankly, that qualifier is more niche and even easier for Blasters to accomplish than most DPS ATs (sans Dominator). Since several nukes have mezzes, stacking a hold or stun on one critter then nuke, pop a blue and stack another hold/stun on the next critter.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
First, the comment wasn't about soloing the spawn, but rather about mezzing it. Soloing (a mission full of) +4 / x8 Carnies on a blaster is way impressive (to me). Locking them down would be miraculous (My Sonic/Nrg with Power Boost and Boost Range might be able to if I get lucky on the phasing), even moreso on a an Ice/*/Electric.
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Mezzed group. Done. You'd be hard pressed doing the same on a Stalker, Scrapper, Brute or even a Tanker as quickly.
But then I figured you guys would actually *think* and not pick apart someone's post literally and put the application of mez into practical use...like, you know, in a manner that actually *matters*.
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| I just tried it on my dominator and I was dying every other spawn, but that was better than I expected. Perhaps with practice I might be able to do well (I kept not using my Judgement, never pulled out my Lore, didn't properly rotate my holds while the MIs were unphased, not using Power Boost, and lots of other little things that make me think a better player could do it). |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, that's an incredibly dumb statement itself. You're saying if a particular blaster build claiming to perform something is miraculous, then all other archetypes doing the same thing are equally miraculous.
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| That's not a sideways sarcastic remark. That's an actual statement of fact. Which brings me to: |
And I'll just quote this:
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| The one thing I know with certainty is if someone is claiming to be able to solo +4x8 Carnies, either they have an extremely loose definition of soloing a spawn that involves not actually facing a +4x8 spawn, or they most definitely aren't just "using 2 holds to lockdown the boss." |
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| Another fact I tried to point out is that nothing you do at +1x6 is remotely meaningful. |
I go onto describe how specific Blasters (namely my Sonic/Ice/Munitions) can 'lock down' such a spawn of +4/x8 and that it is also possible one could build an Ice/Energy/? to do something similar.
But frankly, how useful is that? You point out how dumb my statement is, I'll point out how stupid your whole premise is. The discussion of 'can a blaster lockdown [insert impossible spawn]' only leads to a Blaster that sacrifices damage for control so if they can or not and to what extent is moot.
I even tried to add to your stipulation of 'lock down' by having a Blaster eliminate all minions, leaving the bosses and Lts. Nope, no clarification. I'll just say, yeah it is possible (if you build a blaster right) to lock down a spawn. You can uselessly debate the merits of such a feat despite it not actually having any correlation to balancing the AT. No one's balanced around doing anything to +4/x8.
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A point I am not arguing, and for the purposes of discussion it makes it all the important that there not be an artificial limitation of techniques available to blasters.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
A blaster has only a 1 wood and a putter to his name. They might be able to cobble a bent 5 iron out of pool powers, a cheap pitching wedge with a loose head out of really expensive IOS, and a caddy out of incarnate powers, but that's about the extent of it.
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Except that is not my premise. My premise is that statement is absurd. Saying its also moot is mostly redundant.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
But frankly, how useful is that? You point out how dumb my statement is, I'll point out how stupid your whole premise is. The discussion of 'can a blaster lockdown [insert impossible spawn]' only leads to a Blaster that sacrifices damage for control so if they can or not and to what extent is moot.
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...I hope I don't sound like an idiot, but something I've noticed when folks make these arguments:
I keep seeing people talking about playing at x4, x6, x8, etc.
If you're complaining about Blasters being unable to perform at higher difficulties...then isn't it perhaps the problem of the difficulty setting, not the AT? That I'm aware of, x8 is NOT the standard by which ATs are gauged on performance.
I can understand if the DESIRE is to play at those difficulties because otherwise the game isn't challenging enough for you, but it sounds like you want to make Blasters capable of performing as well as melee ATs at difficulties that well...are harder for a reason.
Or maybe I'm just talking out my backside, I don't know. I've just noticed a trend in the conversations. I rarely play above x2 half the time when I solo, but that's just me. I also don't turn bosses and AVs on.
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Settings below x4 are too low for inspiration cascade as you use inspires faster than they drop. Sets that lack AoE damage like Psi/ and Elec/ do not even have the opportunity to start an inspiration cascade unless they are paired with a much riskier AoE heavy secondary like /Fire. |
Originally Posted by Issen
...I hope I don't sound like an idiot, but something I've noticed when folks make these arguments:
I keep seeing people talking about playing at x4, x6, x8, etc. If you're complaining about Blasters being unable to perform at higher difficulties...then isn't it perhaps the problem of the difficulty setting, not the AT? That I'm aware of, x8 is NOT the standard by which ATs are gauged on performance. I can understand if the DESIRE is to play at those difficulties because otherwise the game isn't challenging enough for you, but it sounds like you want to make Blasters capable of performing as well as melee ATs at difficulties that well...are harder for a reason. Or maybe I'm just talking out my backside, I don't know. I've just noticed a trend in the conversations. I rarely play above x2 half the time when I solo, but that's just me. I also don't turn bosses and AVs on. |
If you know how to use an inspiration cascade your blaster is much better off at a setting of +0/x6 than +0/X3. That may be one point that doesn't make sense but if you slot some defense set bonuses you can use fewer inspires and that lets you smooth out the cascade somewhat.
If you have never tried it and your blaster has decent AoE I'd recommend experimenting with it. Set your difficulty to -1/x5, no bosses, no AVs and select a low mez opponent like Family, Council, or Cimerorans. Enter the mission, pop 4 small purple inspires and fight like crazy. If you have enough AoE damage you should be able to wipe out minions with your AoE and finish off lieutenants with single target attacks and combine up inspires as you go so that next spawn you have 4 more small purples ready to mitigate the alpha response with.
You can create a Kinetic Dampener temp power and pick up the Wedding Band temp from Striga Island. These can get you over a hump if you didn't get enough of the right kind of insps to combine.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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The short answer is yes: if you can't play at higher difficulties you should turn down your difficulty.|
Originally Posted by Issen
...I hope I don't sound like an idiot, but something I've noticed when folks make these arguments:
I keep seeing people talking about playing at x4, x6, x8, etc. If you're complaining about Blasters being unable to perform at higher difficulties...then isn't it perhaps the problem of the difficulty setting, not the AT? That I'm aware of, x8 is NOT the standard by which ATs are gauged on performance. I can understand if the DESIRE is to play at those difficulties because otherwise the game isn't challenging enough for you, but it sounds like you want to make Blasters capable of performing as well as melee ATs at difficulties that well...are harder for a reason. Or maybe I'm just talking out my backside, I don't know. I've just noticed a trend in the conversations. I rarely play above x2 half the time when I solo, but that's just me. I also don't turn bosses and AVs on. |
However, its a tad more complicated than that. The game balances for the average player in the playerbase. Which is none of us (well, none of most of us). Most of us forum posters have skill levels high enough that we can't tell the difference between a "good" powerset combination at 0x1 and a "bad" one. Its easy to fall into the opposite trap: if I can't see a problem, there must not be one.
These discussions often end up talking about what players can do at higher levels of difficulty because the presumption is that if there are problems with blasters (or any other archetype) that the average player sees at 0x1 or 1x2, its a problem that will likely show up more strongly for experienced players at higher difficulty.
The game makes no guarantee, and no promise that you'll be able to solo at +2x6. However, its *suggestive* when a player with comparable skill in two different archetypes finds they can solo easily with one archetype at +2x6 and only with much more difficulty with the other archetype. It suggests the two archetypes have very different strengths, and that difference will show up for other players at other difficulty levels.
But whether its visible or not, the presumption is that it shouldn't exist. Higher difficulty levels are sometimes necessary as a "microscope" to magnify and see them more clearly.
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...I think I get your point. You use higher difficulties to point out differences between what sets and ATs can do. But that still feels more like a function of the difficulty rather than the shortcoming of the AT.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The short answer is yes: if you can't play at higher difficulties you should turn down your difficulty.
However, its a tad more complicated than that. The game balances for the average player in the playerbase. Which is none of us (well, none of most of us). Most of us forum posters have skill levels high enough that we can't tell the difference between a "good" powerset combination at 0x1 and a "bad" one. Its easy to fall into the opposite trap: if I can't see a problem, there must not be one. These discussions often end up talking about what players can do at higher levels of difficulty because the presumption is that if there are problems with blasters (or any other archetype) that the average player sees at 0x1 or 1x2, its a problem that will likely show up more strongly for experienced players at higher difficulty. The game makes no guarantee, and no promise that you'll be able to solo at +2x6. However, its *suggestive* when a player with comparable skill in two different archetypes finds they can solo easily with one archetype at +2x6 and only with much more difficulty with the other archetype. It suggests the two archetypes have very different strengths, and that difference will show up for other players at other difficulty levels. But whether its visible or not, the presumption is that it shouldn't exist. Higher difficulty levels are sometimes necessary as a "microscope" to magnify and see them more clearly. |
But I'll default to your judgment on this, since I'm not the math-whiz a lot of folks are. I make personal calls based on feeling rather than the math, so if your math tells you this stuff, I'll believe you.
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A lot of it comes down to the following: The Blaster AT is one of the only ATs that cannot comfortably sit at a higher difficulty multiplier (not modifier, anything above +0 doesn't really count for 'balance' in this case), and yet gains nothing unique in exchange for this.|
Originally Posted by Issen
...I think I get your point. You use higher difficulties to point out differences between what sets and ATs can do. But that still feels more like a function of the difficulty rather than the shortcoming of the AT.
But I'll default to your judgment on this, since I'm not the math-whiz a lot of folks are. I make personal calls based on feeling rather than the math, so if your math tells you this stuff, I'll believe you. |
Most of the other ATs, with most of their powerset combinations, can do something like, say, +0x6 with very little issues, even pre IOs (Depending on enemy group).
A Blaster has a far, far harder time. And with no benefit to offset it. Their damage is lesser than the Melee ATs, Dominators are on their heels often for Damage, Controllers with proper builds are too. Corruptors do Enough and erupt with Scourge, and Defenders bring their superior supportive numbers.
Blasters struggle, with nothing unique to warrant it.
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^^ This.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
A lot of it comes down to the following: The Blaster AT is one of the only ATs that cannot comfortably sit at a higher difficulty multiplier (not modifier, anything above +0 doesn't really count for 'balance' in this case), and yet gains nothing unique in exchange for this.
Most of the other ATs, with most of their powerset combinations, can do something like, say, +0x6 with very little issues, even pre IOs (Depending on enemy group). A Blaster has a far, far harder time. And with no benefit to offset it. Their damage is lesser than the Melee ATs, Dominators are on their heels often for Damage, Controllers with proper builds are too. Corruptors do Enough and erupt with Scourge, and Defenders bring their superior supportive numbers. Blasters struggle, with nothing unique to warrant it. |
And the purpose of of this thread is to discuss what to do about it.
If your answer is "do nothing, I like it that way" that's fine, but you really have no reason to post in this thread.
It seems to me that these are the factors that can be looked at:
1) ST damage. The devs have said they really don't want ST damage going much higher, so a significant change in this area seems unlikely.
2) AoE damage. I can't see this being increased enough to compete with Judgement. Maybe an increase in maximum targets for nukes?
3) Mitigation via CC. I don't believe the argument that this steps on Dominator's toes holds water, since they stamp all over Blaster toes in terms of damage.
4) Mitigation via "shields". I don't believe the argument that this steps on Scrappers's toes holds water, since they stamp all over Blaster toes in terms of damage.
5) Utility. ??? I don't see any way to add significant amounts of this without fundamentally changing the class.
I really should do something about this signature.
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These two points) Blaster ST damage isn't that high. Not remotely Scrapper worthy. They COULD increase it to be Scrapper level, and thusly not on Stalker level. 1 has NEVER held water with the community, because we knew better than to swallow this. Blast set ST is pretty middling. Why CAN'T they be competitive to melee?|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
1) ST damage. The devs have said they really don't want ST damage going much higher, so a significant change in this area seems unlikely.
3) Mitigation via CC. I don't believe the argument that this steps on Dominator's toes holds water, since they stamp all over Blaster toes in terms of damage. |
3) Dominator damage is only so high because they don't roll over and die. This is more of a 4 issue than 3 issue. They have the lower modifiers, and they do deal less straight-up damage. They just have better sets and design. THAT isn't the Dominator AT's fault, but the failure the Blaster AT is.
And the crappy design of Blast sets.
When I made the 'Blasters in the modern CoH' thread, I never expected it to last the night, so I didn't go into as much detail as you have.
Thankfully, Arcanaville swooped in and took up the call, she had the passion and intelligence to keep the ball rolling far longer than I could've.
That said, to those advocating he should've posted there instead, I'm afraid that would be Necroing and would end up getting the thread locked.
For my own addition to the current discussion, I cancelled my sub for the first time ever (by choice) about 2 months ago, with not being able to enjoy my favorite class anymore as one of the main culprits. The burnout would usually fade in a few weeks and I'd be eager to jump back into the City.
I don't know if I'm just getting older or what, but for some reason I have yet to get the urge to return...
Hearing about improvements to Blasters though, that would be a surefire way to get me pumped!
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
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Yeah, well, good luck with that!|
Originally Posted by Reppu
These two points) Blaster ST damage isn't that high. Not remotely Scrapper worthy. They COULD increase it to be Scrapper level, and thusly not on Stalker level. 1 has NEVER held water with the community, because we knew better than to swallow this. Blast set ST is pretty middling. Why CAN'T they be competitive to melee?
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| 3) Dominator damage is only so high because they don't roll over and die. This is more of a 4 issue than 3 issue. |
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| And the crappy design of Blast sets. |
I really should do something about this signature.
1. Add a mechanic like assassin's focus to single target attacks that would mitigate the endurance on AOEattacks - even tier 9 could be markedly decreased via defiance. Use this add a fear or confuse and hold to the AOEs to a limited degree due to blaster causing so much chaos in battle.
2. Reduce or remove rooting as a defense bonus.
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What about making the blaster secondaries more controlly? Making blasters more like inverted Doms, like Def and Corrs are currently mirror each other.
This would necessitate changing several sets, but not a whole lot, since blasters are sorta limited in number of secondaries to choose from. And it would modify only sets that no other AT uses.
Would that help blasters secondaries enough? Would that be able to be made balanced?
It seems that buffs/debuffs are shared among 4 ATs. Blasts shared among three (I'm counting Dom secondaries and mostly blasty here). Melee attacks and armour each shared among 4 ATs. Control sets are only available to 2 ATs at present. (And of course, only 1 AT has pure pet sets). It shouldn't be be too much of an imposition on other ATs 'thing' if blaster secondaries became more control focused. That would certainly up their survivability, too.
I'm thinking that if each secondary had 4 or 5 control powers, 2 or 3 attacks, and 2 or 3 utilities, that might really help out yet keep the feel of blasters similar to what we have now.
And you're explaining all this to describe your disbelief of it being doable on a Blaster?