The general rule of the market has always been time vs convenience, not haves vs have-nots.
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I'm really shocked that this isn't a more prevalent concern, but I've said my piece on the matter already. Anything further would probably be considered spamming.
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Originally Posted by eth_Nargy
Doing what equates to a massive nerf to people with high recharge rates (pretty much everyone who uses IOs ever) sounds...real bad. People who found themselves performing well will now find themselves remaking their builds.
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@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
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While they are proc-like, they are not procs.|
Originally Posted by MisterD
Oh..good point! How does this work on numi/miacles in Health? Do they suddenly change? Or because they last 120 secs, will we see next to [no] difference, since they will be checking every 10 secs anyway?
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Originally Posted by Kyriani
If this happens without customer recourse it's a crime.
If they refuse to refund me my points I'll simply stop my subscription until the point total + what I lose from my VIP bonus missing months as a subscriber (which I think should be able 4 months to break even). My vet status is enough that I won't miss much if anything and I'll deny them my patronage and dollars. If I can't make them see reason one way I'll show my displeasure by speaking with my wallet. If I cant get my refund in one fashion I'll simply TAKE IT in another. |
I do hope they give some procs special handling (such as the Stalker proc from the ATO sets). At least from now on, all procs, IO or SBE, will be on the same footing.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
This is a subtle, probably not purposeful Bait and Switch, seeing as at least a month's worth of testing went into the current SBE Procs on the market. The ONLY exception was Performance Shifter, thus why it's 'nerf' was acceptable en-masse.
With a MONTH'S WORTH OF TESTING, people knew exactly what they were buying. You may have not flat-out listed the PPM proc rates and information on the purchase screen, but a month is MORE than enough for people to know what they did, know how they work, and purchase them for that reason. Not only, in doing this, did you 100% ruin the only 'perk' of buying SBE perks, but you're also nerfing them because "Oh no people are squeezing performance in City of Heroes!". I know your EULA has a small clause stating we can't flail our arms and scream about these changes, but I also know an EULA is easily thrown out in court if you break a greater jurisdiction law. I really hope, for Paragon's sake, nobody has the willpower to take this to court. I support the idea of making all procs PPM. I do not support the idea of ludicrous caps that dynamically change the game. I do not support 'subtle, accidental' Bait and Switch. PS: I am also neeeever buying an IO off the Paragon Market again. Too subject to be randomly nerfed and the value going down. Yay for useless Mako's Bite procs. You really need to refund these, Paragon. All sales are final is one thing, laughing at your player base because design made a boo boo is not kosher. |
And this isn't them "laughing" at us. We are still testing Issue 23. They are giving us a heads up now on an Issue 24 change. If they went ahead and did this and didn't tell us (while offering more sets for sale in the store) then you might have a point.
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
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On the contrary, expressing my displeasure with what I feel is being ripped off, helps quite a bit.|
Originally Posted by __Tru__
Seriously, that's what I read of your post. Complainin ain't helpin.
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It lets the devs know that at least one of their customers is unhappy with this idea and there will be consequences if they pursue this course of action (as in, with no way to be refunded my points, I will simply stop my subscription until I feel I've recouped an equivalent dollar amount. Thus keeping money in my wallet that otherwise would have been given to them). I would not be making such an issue if the devs offered some method of refunding my points or if they grandfathered already purchased SBE Procs.
I might not be the only customer who feels the same way. Others may speak with their wallets as well and no one could blame them. But I might also be a lone voice and my opinion could be negligible. That's fine too.
Will my words and actions stop the change from happening? Probably not. The fact that they are even entertaining the idea means that it's going to happen in some form or another. I am simply voicing my discontentment with the proposed changes that leave no method for anyone unhappy with them to return the products they have purchased. I'm also letting the devs know that such changes would result in a loss of monetary income from me.
Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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The only case I HONESTLY think Bait and Switch has happened is the Stalker ATO proc, which was said to be working as intended with it's 100% proc rate every 10 seconds.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
As a matter of law, a contract cannot enforce illegal terms on its parties. However, what people on the internet think is illegal and what the law actually says is illegal seems to be two completely different things. In fact, I have yet to see a discussion about the law on these forums not eventually prompt someone to say that what the law actually says is irrelevant to what they believe is illegal.
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This change is going to BUTCHER that proc, and I know people who bought Super Packs specifically for this proc.
That? Because Synapse, if I recall it was, said very clearly it was working as intended, and thus this word got out? It's a bait and switch to then nerf it after clarifying to the masses "This is working as intended, go nuts!"
Or maybe I'm wrong.
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I hope the Stalker ATo gets special treatment, but just because something is "working as intended" when released doesn't mean they will not change their thinking afterwords.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
The only case I HONESTLY think Bait and Switch has happened is the Stalker ATO proc, which was said to be working as intended with it's 100% proc rate every 10 seconds.
This change is going to BUTCHER that proc, and I know people who bought Super Packs specifically for this proc. That? Because Synapse, if I recall it was, said very clearly it was working as intended, and thus this word got out? It's a bait and switch to then nerf it after clarifying to the masses "This is working as intended, go nuts!" Or maybe I'm wrong. |
Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
www.repeat-offenders.net
Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.
Oh geez...
Tru
Great game while it lasts.
Someone pro and con this for me... I'm not seeing any pros for this...
Badge-Hunter: @Dogma
CIT: @Dogma
XFire: BrckaLo
Playfire: BrckaLo
GamerDNA: CoHDogma
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cause there aren't any
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Originally Posted by Dogma
Someone pro and con this for me... I'm not seeing any pros for this...
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Jem - Ill/Rad Controller Lv 50+3 Nic - Mind/Psi Dominator Lv 50+3 Lady Liberation - Invuln/SS Tanker Lv 50+1 Invicitx - Demon/Pain Mastermind Lv 50+1 Celeste - Emp/Arch Defender Lv 50+1 Nightsilver - DB/WP Scrapper Lv 34 Dusk Howl - StJ/Regen Brute Lv 32 Kyriani - Time/Energy Defender Lv 41Psifire - FF/Psi Defender Lv 50
Star Lighter - LB/LA Peacebringer Lv 30
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Nope. Enjoy mass nerfs because development derped and Marketing wanted to lure people.
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Originally Posted by Dogma
Someone pro and con this for me... I'm not seeing any pros for this...
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I know the stalker ato proc keeps getting brought up, but really..anyone who can look at how it works, and NOT say it is simply too awesome has no idea about the game.
Dont get me wrong, I LOVE how it works. But come on..every time? Even working 50% of the time would be flat out awesome, to not having the proc.
This is bullstank, this sounds like Enhancement Diversification's little ******* cousin.
Do. Not. Want.
Story arcs:
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"Working as Intended". That is why it's being brought up.
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Originally Posted by MisterD
I know the stalker ato proc keeps getting brought up, but really..anyone who can look at how it works, and NOT say it is simply too awesome has no idea about the game.
Dont get me wrong, I LOVE how it works. But come on..every time? Even working 50% of the time would be flat out awesome, to not having the proc. |
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I imagine the proc rate of some things will go up. Decimation's chance for build up is only 5% in its non-SBE form. With the SBE, it's about 16% in Blaze and similar recharging powers. At the extreme end, it was proc'ing over 50% in some of the holds in APP/PPPs. Hopefully, we'll see a nice median rate better than the crappy 5%.
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Originally Posted by Dogma
Someone pro and con this for me... I'm not seeing any pros for this...
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Quoting for emphasis. The 3rd change is going to make recharge a penalty.
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Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
This is a bad idea.
Recharge buffs will become a penalty as soon as you go down this road. We will have to built to a specific "cap" of recharge rate for any given build, very carefully not exceeding the optimum value for our attack chains. Speed Boosting a character who is already at their optimum attack chain will decrease their performance. Performance in a League will be HUGELY impacted when you can get tagged with multiple SBs, Chronishifts, Accelerate Metabolisms, et cetera. |
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Until we see the numbers, we don't know this is happening. It's worth mentioning the concern, but it's not worth making it into the sky falling, because it might not be.|
Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
I'm really shocked that this isn't a more prevalent concern, but I've said my piece on the matter already. Anything further would probably be considered spamming.
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You need to recognize that in a huge swath of powers, existing PPM procs are significantly better than standard procs. About the only single-target powers this is not true for are the most extreme of fast-cycling powers, such as Neutrino Bolt. If they both normalize on actual slotted recharge and increase the PPM rating, it could still work out that PPM procs will still be break-even with flat-rate ones in most T1-style powers that have around 4s base recharge times and get better in slower-cyclying powers.
The big concerns I have about the eventual implementation are for AoEs and toggle/passive powers.
I too am fond of the idea of a floor on the proc chance which could enforce that PPMs are never any worse than flat% ones. The creation of a 90% max rate suggests that this is technically possible (or will be in I24).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Yes I know it IS WAI. That still doesnt mean it 'should' be working that way. DO you honestly trust the devs to get the workings of everything correct? Given how they came up with the ppm system, nerfed it on one type, left the rest..and NOW are changing it all? I sure dont.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
"Working as Intended". That is why it's being brought up.
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Anyway, I think people are really missing the part where Syn said 'All ppm rates will be increased, to balance how much they proc' with only 'small performance hits'. Lets wait and see what happens.
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As far as I can see, the two biggest pros and cons are:|
Originally Posted by Dogma
Someone pro and con this for me... I'm not seeing any pros for this...
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Pros:
1. There will in general only be one kind of proc type, whether store bought or acquired in-game. All procs will use the PPM mechanic. No more arguments about which type is better.
2. All PPM procs will have their PPM ratings increased by some amount, and by extension this means all currently fixed chance procs when converted will be converted to higher PPM rating procs. For many players and many situations, this will likely result in higher performance procs. The precise details depend on the recharge range the devs balance the procs for. In particular, this is likely to be true for procs slotted into passive powers and toggles.
Cons:
1. Depending on the precise recharge level the devs balance for, players with builds with higher recharge levels will likely see a small performance reduction on those procs when slotted into quickly recharging clicks.
2. Situations where the PPM proc chance reached or exceeded 100% will now reach a maximum ceiling of 90% chance of firing.
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You're right that it sucks, but you are wrong that it's "bait and switch". It doesn't meet the commonly recognized legal definition of that term.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
It's a bait and switch to then nerf it after clarifying to the masses "This is working as intended, go nuts!"
Or maybe I'm wrong. |
Changing something after you buy it is something else all together. Bait-and-switch requires that they are attempting to get you to buy something other than the advertised item at a higher price than the original item you were interested in.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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A minimum proc chance that equals flat % proc chance would be good, dare I say, necessary, to make recharge buffs not crap all over PPMs.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I too am fond of the idea of a floor on the proc chance which could enforce that PPMs are never any worse than flat% ones. The creation of a 90% max rate suggests that this is technically possible (or will be in I24).
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My concern is that, in the huge swathe of characters I have, many of them have 170%+ global recharge and sometimes upwards of another 130% in certain key powers. Some have over 200% global. The fact that procs are going to be diminished in my primary attack chains because of that value, when that amount of recharge isn't necessary for those attack chains to work but is useful for the rest of my powers, is not acceptable. The fact that buffs will reduce our proc rates is just insane.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
You need to recognize that in a huge swath of powers, existing PPM procs are significantly better than standard procs. About the only single-target powers this is not true for are the most extreme of fast-cycling powers, such as Neutrino Bolt. If they both normalize on actual slotted recharge and increase the PPM rating, it could still work out that PPM procs will still be break-even with flat-rate ones in most T1-style powers that have around 4s base recharge times and get better in slower-cyclying powers.
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@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
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But if you're firing off you powers more frequently, doesn't that make the chance for proc go up?
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Originally Posted by Draeth Darkstar
My concern is that, in the huge swathe of characters I have, many of them have 170%+ global recharge and sometimes upwards of another 130% in certain key powers. Some have over 200% global. The fact that procs are going to be diminished in my primary attack chains because of that value, when that amount of recharge isn't necessary for those attack chains to work but is useful for the rest of my powers, is not acceptable. The fact that buffs will reduce our proc rates is just insane.
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You can only fire off a power so often because of animation time.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
But if you're firing off you powers more frequently, doesn't that make the chance for proc go up?
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If you have an attack chain that requires 200% rchg to run, and you have 300% rchg, you're going to be doing LESS DPS.
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No, it does not, because once you've reached a recharge rate where you're firing your powers off as fast as the animations allow, any further recharge gained decreases your proc chances without increasing your performance in any meaningful way.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
But if you're firing off you powers more frequently, doesn't that make the chance for proc go up?
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Edit: What he said ^
@Draeth Darkstar
Virtue [Heroes, Roleplay], Freedom [Villains], Exalted [All Sides, Roleplay]
Code:
I24 Proc Chance = (Enhanced Recharge + Activation Time) * (Current PPM * 1.25) / 60*(1 + .75*(.15*Radius - 0.011*Radius*(360-Arc)/30)) Single Target Radius = 0. AoE Non-Cone Arc = 360.
EULA's aren't never thrown out of court if a greater law is broken. Thus, IF one is, I hope nobody figures it out.
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