Why do people want one person to have Nades in Lambda Trial?
By
Badaxe,
Posted on: 2012-04-23 07:47 in Player Questions
I never figured that one out either.
Luckily in the case the grenadier DCs, unless you're a freshly minted +0, it's straightforward (if annoying) to blow up the weapons crates and get more.
There was a time when you could waste grenades, but that was really early on when Lambda was new.
As for why people might do this now, I cannot say. There really is little reason and in most cases you're setting yourself up to make it worse if the person holding them all dies or DCs.
People use grenades?
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I guessing it's a few things that contribute;
-A holdover from when grenades could be wasted.
-If a badge run is being performed, having one person hold all the grenades helps ensure that one person can't ruin it for everyone else. Insisting on this behavior on non-badge runs helps establish this as a normal activity, so there is less resistance on actual badge runs.
-Helps with certain activities, like keeping one or two gates open to get the extra astral from defeating enough adds.
-some people may just have control issues.
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This is a good question. I'll explain as best I can. Bear in mind, there may be other correct answers, as this is just my opinion. There are 3 types of leaders for iTrials. |
Originally Posted by shaggy5
Now that Lambda has been around a while and it is fairly easy, I am perplexed as to why some runs people stress over and over that "so and so" gets the grenades. The grenades cannot overlap (meaning, if one is used, another newer player cannot use another and waste a grenade). Giving them to one person alone means that, if that person dies or (more likely) DCs, the team is left with no grenades. Even the most awesome tank that will never die on a Lam can still DC. Why not let everyone keep them and use them, or at least say, "If you aren't sure about grenades or die a lot, give them to a tank or brute"?
I know this is minor, but I am just wondering on the rationale. |
- The newer, less experienced player who wants the incarnate salvage so badly, they will form a trial regardless of whether or not they know what they're doing. They don't give much, if any direction at all, hoping that the league will know what to do. A fair assumption for a baf or lam.
- The experienced non-beta leader. These are people who hae probably led a fair amount of trials or tfs. You'll see them comment in global channels far more often than other voices - "XXTF is now forming, room for X" They give direction and are usually very familiar with what needs to be done. But !!! Where are they learning this stuff from? They'll get bits and pieces from the forums, but usually they will learn from other leaders. Most are just repeating things they've seen and heard without really knowing why things must or should be done "this way".
- The Beta leader is a player who may spend just as much time in beta suffering through the challenges and changes on Beta, so that by the time things go live, it's pretty much old stuff for them. They want the badges on their character(s) so they form a league, generally hand picked from a global list of friends or pick out of the names on a global channel list. (they may even use /search to see who they know is online.) This player will then proceed to dish out macros, binds, instructions and usually has a reason behind each "Don't do this" or "Do this here, not there"
So, in a nutshell, the leader trusts that one player more than the rest of the league to do what needs to be done, or he's just doing what the last leader he learned under did.
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I almost never encounter this anymore (all my iTrialing is done on Virtue). The closest I see on a regular basis is a leader telling people that if they don't know what to do with their acids/nades, they should give them to him instead. But most just assume that everyone knows what they're doing unless someone speaks up and says, "hey, I got this temp power, what's it for?"
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I think it's mostly this. Old habits die hard.|
Originally Posted by The Grim Heaper
-A holdover from when grenades could be wasted.
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Originally Posted by The Grim Heaper
-Helps with certain activities, like keeping one or two gates open to get the extra astral from defeating enough adds.
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Interesting, I learned something new. As most Lambda runs I go on the leader asks for the 'nades, I always assumed this was to avoid grenade overlap. But, I now discover grenades cannot be wasted.
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Originally Posted by Kailure
There was a time when you could waste grenades, but that was really early on when Lambda was new.
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This is actually my SECOND question about Lambda leading...more often than not now I have leaders who tell the team to wait for 18:30 (or 18:00), but then we kill AV before we get bonus merit. I have even asked why and the leader said, "Everyone is all T4 now and we don't need astral." I don't agree with that, but even if I did, a good team can kill the 30 fast, why not just grab it. Not the end of the world, but shocking how often I see this. If you aren't getting the extra astral, just close the doors right away, imho.
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Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
Although that's acids, not nades. Also, whenever I do a Lambda trial, we just end up waiting until the clock hits 18:30 (sometimes 18:00, depending on the leader) before using the acids in order to let the adds build up. Then we can close all the gates and still have enough for the extra Astral. I kinda thought that was standard operating procedure everywhere -- are there some servers that run it differently? |
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I'm in the same boat, I guess. I never knew that you couldn't overlap grenades. I'd assume many of those that are asking for grenades to go to one person aren't aware that the grenades cannot be wasted, either.
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Originally Posted by Spatch
Interesting, I learned something new. As most Lambda runs I go on the leader asks for the 'nades, I always assumed this was to avoid grenade overlap. But, I now discover grenades cannot be wasted.
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Because some leaders are total Control freaks? LOL In the very beginning leaders did a lot of this to ensure players that knew how to use them had them .. but now just about everyone knows what to do and its crazy to give them all to one person.
There is absolutely no need to waste time handing off every grenade to one person as long as the team knows how to use them. The fact is that CAN backfire on a team.. One team I was on not long after Lambda went live we all dutifully gave our grenades to the tank. Then the tank dc'd and we had to run around getting more nades in the courtyard while Maurader was running around and time was ticking down on us. We did manage to grab enough to defeat Maurader but it was close and the Tank never did make it back.
Fact is now that a lot of players have Judgement and assorted other incarnate powers it's rare that a team uses even half the grenades they collect.. I have completed the trial with two of them still available in my trays because others were quicker using them when required. Leaders that require this are simply holding on to older strategy because they don't know any better.
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For a while when the trial was new, grenades could be wasted. But a while back (one of the half issues?) it was changed so that the grenade temp won't even activate unless Marauder is enraged, and once one person activates the power, nobody else's copy of it will activate. Technically, it may be possible to waste them if two people both activated their grenades at the exact same microsecond, but the chances of that happening are pretty minuscule (if it's even possible at all).|
Originally Posted by Spatch
Interesting, I learned something new. As most Lambda runs I go on the leader asks for the 'nades, I always assumed this was to avoid grenade overlap. But, I now discover grenades cannot be wasted.
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Originally Posted by shaggy5
This is actually my SECOND question about Lambda leading...more often than not now I have leaders who tell the team to wait for 18:30 (or 18:00), but then we kill AV before we get bonus merit. I have even asked why and the leader said, "Everyone is all T4 now and we don't need astral." I don't agree with that, but even if I did, a good team can kill the 30 fast, why not just grab it. Not the end of the world, but shocking how often I see this. If you aren't getting the extra astral, just close the doors right away, imho.
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One answer is that a lot of people will refuse to check their temporary powers to drag out specific powers. Either they didn't see the message showing they got a temp, they didn't have any spaces open in their main three power trays, or they just can't be bothered to do it.
I was once in a trial where we only had three people who had acids despite us clearing out the labs. Why was this? Because people somehow forgot how to check their temporary powers despite being level 50s. So because of this, the enemies started swarming us and we almost wiped.
Nowadays, I play in leagues where for the most part, I know almost everyone on it, so we don't get those kind of problems anymore, but in PuGs, passing them all to one person is a viable tactic I can see happening to prevent these kind of problems.
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As many have said there are a number of reasons that contribute to this. Two others that I know of are...
1) It allows for a tally of grenades so that the leader knows that enough are available AND in the hands of a skilled player.
2) Some leaders say this so the new or less skilled/experienced player doesn't feel bad. It sounds a lot better then "Everyone pass your grenades to John except players Al, Bob, Chuck and Dave who know how to use them." I see this happen with regards to other situations as well and more then once have seen the leader tell the league 1 thing but then privately tell me the opposite.
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Had no idea the 'nades changed. Usually just give 'em to whoever shouts for them. shrug.
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#1 This one I could see, but most just ask who has one while the setup period is going.|
Originally Posted by Cathulhu
As many have said there are a number of reasons that contribute to this. Two others that I know of are...
1) It allows for a tally of grenades so that the leader knows that enough are available AND in the hands of a skilled player. 2) Some leaders say this so the new or less skilled/experienced player doesn't feel bad. It sounds a lot better then "Everyone pass your grenades to John except players Al, Bob, Chuck and Dave who know how to use them." I see this happen with regards to other situations as well and more then once have seen the leader tell the league 1 thing but then privately tell me the opposite. |
and #2 is relevant to Lambda temps how? You can't waste them.
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I don't see how it prevents any of that. If the players either don't know they have grenades, or can't be bothered to check, then how will they know to pass them to the leader?|
Originally Posted by Ideon
One answer is that a lot of people will refuse to check their temporary powers to drag out specific powers. Either they didn't see the message showing they got a temp, they didn't have any spaces open in their main three power trays, or they just can't be bothered to do it.
I was once in a trial where we only had three people who had acids despite us clearing out the labs. Why was this? Because people somehow forgot how to check their temporary powers despite being level 50s. So because of this, the enemies started swarming us and we almost wiped. Nowadays, I play in leagues where for the most part, I know almost everyone on it, so we don't get those kind of problems anymore, but in PuGs, passing them all to one person is a viable tactic I can see happening to prevent these kind of problems. |
I guess it serves as a reminder to check and see if they have them, but just saying "check your temp powers" would accomplish the same thing, wouldn't it? Why take the extra step of making them hand the things over to a specific person, leader or otherwise?
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The are several reasons as mentioned.
That's not to say other approaches don't work, but folks get used to seeing
many of the same people in iTrials on a particular server and get used to doing
things certain ways, mostly because they work. 
The most common reasons I'm aware of:
A> Even now, there are a lot of new 50's that don't know what nades are for,
or how to use them - giving them away lessens the learning curve until they're
ready (or interested) in using them. It lets newbies focus on what they *can*
do (I know the first few times I ran trials it was overwhelmingly confusing - being
able to simply "Just shoot the AV" helped until I understood things better) while
still ensuring things go smoothly.
B> Some AT's don't want to get *that* close to Marauder - particularly squishies.
Doubly so when there are tanks, brutes, scrappers etc. who are quite happy
to get in his face and would likelier make better use of the nades.
C> Wasting nades -- I've run a lot of these trials, and I was unaware you can't do
that anymore -- I suspect I'm not the only one that didn't realize that's been changed.
D> Ignorance/Obstinance -- I was on a failed Lambda (only 8 ppl) just last week
because at least one of those folks had nades that were never used...
We ran out of time on Marauder as a direct result.
It's an old adage that some people simply cannot, or will not follow directions.
It's certainly not a big deal, and in most cases, the trial will still succeed regardless,
with a big enough team, but personally, I always ask if anyone wants any nades I
have (I'll use acids myself) unless I'm on my Brute. YMMV.
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On your server and the ITrials you participate in that may be the case, but not on the teams I run with. The general call out I see is "Give Grenades to X. Use acids at 18:00." or variations on that. On our server we have enough people who are used to that, that if you don't announce it someone will probably ask "Who gets the Grenades?", so either way the question needs to be answered.|
Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
#1 This one I could see, but most just ask who has one while the setup period is going.
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Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
#2 is relevant to Lambda temps how? You can't waste them.
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I have seen...
"Team No Tell" runs into trouble when in the middle of the fight it turned out that 7-9 of the grenades were held by new players, the person who disconnected, or a griefer. I much prefer to see "Give the Grenades to John.", then screams of "For the love of god will someone use a grenade sssssweqssssss"
"Team, who here has Grenades and how many?" wind up with the following worthless info and the leader thinking more grenades were accounted for then there were.
Paul "I Do"
John "2"
Jack "I had 1 but gave it away"
Jane "Same here"
Joe "I gave 2 to John"
It turned out John only had 2 and Paul a new player had some lovely "Frag Grenades" some of the others were with new players and likely would have gone unused, and a few never turned up. Thankfully this was caught at the last moment.
"Team Give the grenades to John" requires one announcement and allows the team leader to focus on other issues and questions since his friend John can get an accurate count, disperse the grenades to players he knows will use them or have a low chance of disconnecting or dying. If there are not enough grenades he can track them down. In the end the leader receives one accurate, stress free tell from John to the effect of "8 grenades given to the regulars." Worst case scenario is John doesn't get enough grenades, But at least the leader knows this and can take precautions.
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In my limited experience with this (It's pretty difficult to notice two people throwing grenades at the same time with everything else going on around Marauder, not to mention pretty difficult to use it at the same exact time in the first place) if this happens it will stack in a way that Marauder's next enrage will be deactivated as well.|
Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
Technically, it may be possible to waste them if two people both activated their grenades at the exact same microsecond, but the chances of that happening are pretty minuscule (if it's even possible at all).
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The notice to throw a grenade still comes up on the next one, but you can't throw a grenade and in a few seconds the notice saying he's pacified shows up.
I'd say just to know that whoever's controlling aggro has the grenades, and enough of them to last through the slog.
Me, I'm usually on a squishy and staying at some sort of range, so I'll just dump them on the melee so I don't have to worry about it.
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Since it's hard enough to actually get all 10 acids used, we (Infinity) usually just assume that a couple will 'go missing' and plan accordingly. We use the acids immediately but leave two doors and never bother closing them.|
Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
Although that's acids, not nades. Also, whenever I do a Lambda trial, we just end up waiting until the clock hits 18:30 (sometimes 18:00, depending on the leader) before using the acids in order to let the adds build up. Then we can close all the gates and still have enough for the extra Astral. I kinda thought that was standard operating procedure everywhere -- are there some servers that run it differently?
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Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
Technically, it may be possible to waste them if two people both activated their grenades at the exact same microsecond, but the chances of that happening are pretty minuscule (if it's even possible at all).
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When I play my tanker on a LAM, more often then not as soon as the last phases starts people will just start handing me grenades without anyone saying anything. Or if there is a better more well known tank on the league they just hand them to him/her.
I think another reason for some leaders saying hand them all to one player, may be more to stop all the questions like "who do I hand nades to?" etc.
I also didn't know you couldn't waste grenades anymore, you learn something new every day...
Now that Lambda has been around a while and it is fairly easy, I am perplexed as to why some runs people stress over and over that "so and so" gets the grenades. The grenades cannot overlap (meaning, if one is used, another newer player cannot use another and waste a grenade). Giving them to one person alone means that, if that person dies or (more likely) DCs, the team is left with no grenades. Even the most awesome tank that will never die on a Lam can still DC. Why not let everyone keep them and use them, or at least say, "If you aren't sure about grenades or die a lot, give them to a tank or brute"?
I know this is minor, but I am just wondering on the rationale.
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