The big letdown: Staff
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
Also, I highlighted a major part of your argument, then point out every other 'slow animation' set and ask you this: Where's the justice there?
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And, you make it sound like Ageless isn't one of the best Destinies in the game, for a "Perma" +10% Recharge, an immediately full Endurance Bar, and massive recovery that solves endurance problems for it's duration. It's a mini Speed Boost. Sure, it's not Barrier (Which isn't that great because Resistance/Defense cap in Teams isn't hard. At least Defense) or Rebirth (Probably the only other amazing one I feel, aside from Specific Clarion Cases). |
I've got two TW 50s and another on the way up. I love the set, it is probably my favorite ever. Overall, it has extremely high performance, better than most if not all other melee sets. Even being the best overall still is not the same as being the best at everything.
Those animations are always slow, though. They don't get even slower if previous attacks miss. They still suffer proportionally less than TW. Tohit debuffs suck for everyone, as I already agreed, but not to the same degree for everyone. Sets with large persistent tohit buffs also suffer less from debuffs, so it's not just TW in one category and everything else in another category, it's more of a continuum, with TW on or near the far end of "most affected".
Ageless is great, don't get me wrong. I meant exactly what I said: if you're using Ageless, you're not using Rebirth or Barrier, and those are sometimes very desirable. Moreover, it represents a direct tradeoff between offense (recharge, endurance) and survivability (mitigation, healing), which again puts TW in the situation of having some tradeoffs, not simply being the best in every way. I've got two TW 50s and another on the way up. I love the set, it is probably my favorite ever. It still is not the best set at everything in every way. |
So, yeah. Unless we figure out where the balance points lies, I'm going to advocate nerfs or buffs. Or maybe neither now, because someone always gets pissed.
I'm hyperboling VERY slightly when I respond to posts about "YOU CAN'T HAVE AMAZING ST AND AMAZING AOE THAT IS BROKEN" with "Titan Weapons"... but only slightly. We have more than enough documented proof showing TW hits the top levels of BOTH damage areas, along with large amounts of KD soft mitigation.
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TW has outstanding damage, with some substantial drawbacks in other areas. These drawbacks can be overcome, and it's a very good set overall.
Staff has average-ish damage, with some substantial benefits in other areas. If it's pretty average among melee sets, it is balanced with other melee sets pretty much by definition.
...and yeah, actively advocating nerfs or buffs will almost always get some group to disagree with you. As Ukaserex says, the best way to start an argument is to express an opinion and wait.
... Odd, considering Plant Control is considered an Outlier.
I guess Fire Control fell off since Fire/Kin got kicked in the gut from the pet recharge adjustments, but I personally enjoy Fire Control when I get around to playing it. Regardless, it effects all Slow Animation attacks equally. Titan Weapons is filled with them so I guess it artificially hurts them more. 'Thankfully' ToHit debuffs are surprisingly rare. Maybe because dev-side knows NOT hitting is a lot less fun than hitting and doing poor damage. |
I can actually picture the exact argument already: It starts with "But Seeds of Confusion is a CONE and those are NEVER better than regular AoEs."
Anyway, the reason TW suffers more than other powersets against -ToHit (or +Defense) was stated by other posters, but it's because the speed of future attacks requires the previous attack to hit. This is glossed over by DPA calculations, which assume all hits connect. When a hit misses, TW falls further behind than other sets. This applies both in terms of -ToHit but also applies to the 95% accuracy check cap.
Anyway, it doesn't take a -ToHit situation necessarily to produce this. Someone who PUGs a lot leveling up probably spends a lot of time below the 95% hit cap. The reason: super side kicking. It is nowcommon for people to join teams 5, 10, 20 or more levels higher than them, most often with most of their attacks not fully slotted. TW is in a more precarious position than other sets if it coms up against mobs it can't hit.
Not to mention one other penalty it has: if you queue up attacks to take advantage of max-speed attack chains, you could stuck in an extremely long animation if one attack misses. This has killed m Electric/TW Tanker when a heal I was hoping to fire miissed due to animation lock. I bet it's even more of a nasty surprise for people running away from death patches.
And then there is knockback and enemies that run away/die halfway through your chain to worry about too...
Okay, it doesn't side kick well. At lot of sets don't. It does hurt TW a bit more, but it's not a single weakness to TW. Sidekicking hurts many sets.
Either way, I was responding ONLY in terms of pure damage. Titan Weapon's downside is, yeah. Endurance costs. And missing hurts it a bit more than other sets but then again, it's Broadsword but with Two Hands.
At the end of the day, some people enjoy Staff Fighting because of the concept, animations, and because it's a different way to play the game. Some people don't want to be burdened by numbers and want the immersion to sink in. This is just fine.
At the end of the day, some people don't enjoy Staff Fighting because it doesn't fit their performance criteria in certain aspects and they voice their opinions on it in hopes for developer comment/adjustment. This is also fine.
Ask yourself if focusing so much ire on a video game, or how another sect of people enjoy said game, is worth it.
At the end of the day, some people enjoy Staff Fighting because of the concept, animations, and because it's a different way to play the game. Some people don't want to be burdened by numbers and want the immersion to sink in. This is just fine.
At the end of the day, some people don't enjoy Staff Fighting because it doesn't fit their performance criteria in certain aspects and they voice their opinions on it in hopes for developer comment/adjustment. This is also fine. Ask yourself if focusing so much ire on a video game, or how another sect of people enjoy said game, is worth it. |
Hurrrrrrrr.
And people thinking Titan Weapons is not top-tier probably aren't informed.
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If you actually MISSED more than once, you have personal build problems. |
Except, you know, you have a maximum 95% chance to hit no matter what and the RNG can be streaky on that 5% sometimes.....
ToHit debuffs are surprisingly rare. |
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I don't get why people talk about TW "with Momentum" and "without Momentum" as if that were somehow meaningful to what the set actually does. There's no way to actually play Titan Weapons other than sometimes having Momentum, and sometimes not having it.
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If you're measuring DPS while it's active during the whole sample, it's going to be MUCH higher than if you measure when it's dropped.
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... Odd, considering Plant Control is considered an Outlier.
I guess Fire Control fell off since Fire/Kin got kicked in the gut from the pet recharge adjustments, but I personally enjoy Fire Control when I get around to playing it. Regardless, it effects all Slow Animation attacks equally. Titan Weapons is filled with them so I guess it artificially hurts them more. 'Thankfully' ToHit debuffs are surprisingly rare. Maybe because dev-side knows NOT hitting is a lot less fun than hitting and doing poor damage. |
The reason why Fire Control isn't used as much for farming is because Fire Brutes got better due to the changes to SS/Fire. Particularly the Fire side.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
If anyone actually using plant control thinks it's underpowered, though, they're doing something HORRIBLY wrong...
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Which is a shame because there are a lot of great ideas for missions where you'd want to simulate a burning building and have smoke everywhere. turns out that's a literal NAND gate blocking out lots of people from getting that mission done.
The worst is still setting a timer on a mission and giving everything black hole.
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
"Top tier" and "top" are not the same thing. Nice backpedal, Sparky.
True fact: Miss streaks NEVER happen with capped acc and +tohit! Except, you know, you have a maximum 95% chance to hit no matter what and the RNG can be streaky on that 5% sometimes..... ...this is a joke, right? Have you actually played this game? They're freaking EVERYWHERE. |
Next; Streakbreaker denies your logic of constantly missing hit after hit at 95%.
And yes, they must be rare, or I build enough +ACC (And I do) to never miss. And by never I mean "I am not affected by -ToHit unless I'm hit by five Radiations at once." I'll clarify that, before someone goes "NYAAAAAH!"
Between keyboard and chair, I guess.
Fire Control was is not good because of the pets. Fire Control is good BECAUSE of anything but the imps. The pet recharge adjustments did jack diddly to how great fire control is.
The reason why Fire Control isn't used as much for farming is because Fire Brutes got better due to the changes to SS/Fire. Particularly the Fire side. |
True fact: Miss streaks NEVER happen with capped acc and +tohit!
Except, you know, you have a maximum 95% chance to hit no matter what and the RNG can be streaky on that 5% sometimes..... |
And because AoEs roll attacks against enemies one at a time, NOT simultaneously, if you use an AoE with a 95% hit chance (That's total hit chance, not base Accuracy) against 2 or more opponents, you're guaranteed to hit at least one of them. That's why, when I need momentum and keep missing, I start spamming AoEs. Even if I'm heavily Accuracy or ToHit debuffed, I'll force Streak Breaker to kick in faster.
@Roderick
The was hammered in even deeper during the escape phase of a BAF today. On TW that part of that trial is like having my nails pulled out with pliers while jumper cables are being attached to my.... well any way it sucks.
With staff, even w/o a level shift it was fun. It was fun because it was fast, very fast. Stuff died, because I attacked fast.
To each their own. I will take Staff over TW any day of the week. I do have a lvl 50 of both.
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I hate the momentum mechanic. With staff I get to skip 0 and go right to 60. With TW everything seems to take forever.
The was hammered in even deeper during the escape phase of a BAF today. On TW that part of that trial is like having my nails pulled out with pliers while jumper cables are being attached to my.... well any way it sucks. With staff, even w/o a level shift it was fun. It was fun because it was fast, very fast. Stuff died, because I attacked fast. To each their own. I will take Staff over TW any day of the week. I do have a lvl 50 of both. |
Could it use buffs? Not before Blast sets.
So, I've accepted the Forum Opinion, or at least the Scrapper/Stalker opinion, that everything else needs to be buffed to the outliers, not nerfed to the Average.
APPARENTLY I just ran into the OTHER half of the forums that thinks you need to nerf to the Average, not Buff to the Outliers. I REALLY can't win sometimes. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
... "Top Tier" and "Top" are the same thing. I did not say "ABSOLUTE BEST EVER MUST NOT COMPARE". Saying something is "Top Tier" and... you're not even making sense.
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Next; Streakbreaker denies your logic of constantly missing hit after hit at 95%. |
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I would, too. It would be the reason why I nuked my TW for my SF. I think Staff is perfectly 'fine' as is. It's very 'average'.
Could it use buffs? Not before Blast sets. |
There are always going to be better builds, and better players. Sadly there is no way to average for that, well some l33t math person like Arcanaville may can. No real way to balance for it either and still keep the game fun and exciting.
I feel that is what is really being missed here. Sure if we do all our builds with SOs then some things are going to be better than others. That is not what we are doing though. Your SOed TW, and my IOed Staff build is going to blow it out of the water. Either because of damage, or because you will be dead and I will not be.
I maintain balance is gone, and it will not come back until we all have access to the same stuff. Hey, I am willing to spend more cash and time on the game than others, they are going to have a really hard time catching up with me. Not to mention I have been playing for 7 years, and know most of the tricks of the trade.
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The only place I said anything about "constantly missing" was in your little psychotic imagination. If you have to put words into my mouth to refute what I'm saying, don't bother arguing. You've lost and you know it.
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Except, you know, you have a maximum 95% chance to hit no matter what and the RNG can be streaky on that 5% sometimes.....
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Technically, you CAN miss multiple times in a row with a 95% hit chance, but only if you're mixing in attacks with a lower chance. If ALL your attacks have a 95% chance, then the streak you mentioned IS impossible.
@Roderick
He may have misinterpreted what you said, but you DID say that it's possible to have miss streaks with a 95% hit chance.
Technically, you CAN miss multiple times in a row with a 95% hit chance, but only if you're mixing in attacks with a lower chance. If ALL your attacks have a 95% chance, then the streak you mentioned IS impossible. |
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I guess Fire Control fell off since Fire/Kin got kicked in the gut from the pet recharge adjustments, but I personally enjoy Fire Control when I get around to playing it.
Regardless, it effects all Slow Animation attacks equally. Titan Weapons is filled with them so I guess it artificially hurts them more. 'Thankfully' ToHit debuffs are surprisingly rare. Maybe because dev-side knows NOT hitting is a lot less fun than hitting and doing poor damage.