This is why I'm not PvPing.
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2012-04-17 15:38 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Replace the #'s with periods, it doesn't work otherwise. |
Originally Posted by The_Masque
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Interesting read, you forgot one though:
7) Caustic attitude on the forums from pvp'ers towards non pvp'ers.
Good points.
It was pretty jarring back then to take your favorite alt to Siren's then get TP Stalked, but got over it pretty quickly. The most annoying thing has been having to relearn EVERYTHING with all the new stuff like DR, damage per activation, etc. etc. It's just not as fun anymore...I used to PvP on Test for hours and hours. Statesman's Watch then Integrity then otehr groups just practicing and then doing matches on Thursday and Sundays...yeah for sure most people were tons better but it was competitive around the middle. Now it's just...meh.
I can hardly bring myself to do team arena anymore. Level 4 stuff is fun because you just damage spam and respawn. Zones are awful with travel suppression and heal decay. It wasn't like you couldn't kill healers before if you spiked them, and you could even cage them too in the day.
One thing I will give them credit for is they fixed Arena crashes, we got selectable maps and we got PvP IOs too...that's all good stuff. PvPEC did some nice work too with the various ladders and server events but it just got tiring after awhile...too much arguing and not enough fighting.
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This nails it.|
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
Replace the #'s with periods, it doesn't work otherwise.
Interesting read, you forgot one though: 7) Caustic attitude on the forums from pvp'ers towards non pvp'ers. |
If I can't have a civil conversation with folks about PvP why would I want to play with those people?
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Yeah, that was some ugly stuff too. The term "Care Bear" still annoys the crap out of me. I will not even let my wife buy one for my girls because the term annoys me so bad.|
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
Replace the #'s with periods, it doesn't work otherwise.
Interesting read, you forgot one though: 7) Caustic attitude on the forums from pvp'ers towards non pvp'ers. |
With that said....
As I said in the other thread I went to RV last night on Virtue to beat on pill boxes, and blow off steam. It was like 2:30 am and I didn't expect to see another soul. Well, there were other people there, and I did end up doing some PvP (on a KM/ElA scrapper even) and I actually had fun. There were no sore losers, or even worse sore winners.
It is something I am even considering doing more of. I know I want the badges for the Pill boxes, so the PvP will be unavoidable.
If the people who are currently still doing zone PvP act like the ones I met last night, it could grow again.
Also that whole trash talk in every competition is BS. My son is a competitive wrestler, one of the best in the state in his weight class. I am at matches during the week, and on the weekends. These kids never talk trash, and they are doing one of the hardest school sports there is. It is good sportsmanship.
I saw that last night in RV. If I see it next time I go, then PvP is something I may become more and more interested in.
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Calculator -- I has it.|
Originally Posted by The_Masque
If when CoX had a population of 50,000 and 5% pvped, then we had 500 pvpers. Now lets say the population of Cox has decreased to 5,000 we would only have 50.
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50000 x 0.05 = 2500
5000 x 0.05 = 250
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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Originally Posted by The_Masque
Why start a new thread?
Because in my opinion, the other thread posted by Blood Red Arachnid, was full of misconceptions, half truths, and urban myths about CoX PVP. |
Um... that logic doesn't follow through. There isn't anything stopping you from just posting up this info in my thread. People being incorrect about something on the internet certainly doesn't disable the post button or anything.
I say this because when two people make two competing threads, the flow of the arguments in them go at different rates, and it gets really messy about who is keeping track of what is said where and when. It's easier just to keep everything in one spot. That way, you can have a discussion without it turning into thread warfare.
TPN trial guide video / MoM trial guide video / DD trial guide video / BAF trial guide video
/ Lambda trial guide video / Keyes trial guide video / Magisterium trial guide video / Underground trial guide
You forgot:
"Don't like to compete, prefer to beat on NPCs." If not as a reason YOU don't PvP, at least as one of the reasons you were addressing.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Arenas are instances. But you probably are referring to being able to queue up for a PvP event and be placed on a team in a manner similar to LFG or battlegrounds in other games. I think such a system would go a long way towards getting some PvP action going... as of now the system-created PvP events don't and have never worked. | 5# Instanced PvP- Nothing as of yet. |
I can think of a few other reasons PvP is unpopular.
PvP zones are too big; often times half the battle is actually finding the battle.
The only objective is to kill the other player, which is a fine objective, but having a variety of PvP modes (such as capture points, king of the hill, capture the flag, ect) would add more tactical elements to the battle.
Currently, there is no reason to PvP if you wish to complete PvP zone objectives, such as collecting nukes or shivans (in fact, its best to avoid PvP if you want to be successful at such tasks).
In regards to the zones, if one side has more people than the other, the larger side has a major advantage. Getting camped in the Sirens Call hospital is not fun. PvP zones should also have a queuing mechanism to even out the zone populations... maybe have a scheduled battle over some objective every few hours or so...
Lastly, there should be cross-server PvP (to increase the PvP player pool).
Still willing to donate to the "Make Safeguards/Mayhems a PvP mode" fund. =/
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Y'know, that doesn't just go one way. I mention PVPing - even casually - and I'll end up with messages long afterward that, even if it's from (say) a guide that helped someone or a message that fixed a problem, has "I don't usually bother talking to a PVPer" or that was helpful... for a PVPer. Even if what I said (or the guide, or whatever) had absolutely zero to do with PVP. (Which is most of it.) |
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
Replace the #'s with periods, it doesn't work otherwise.
Interesting read, you forgot one though: 7) Caustic attitude on the forums from pvp'ers towards non pvp'ers. |
Or someone goes into a PVP zone and starts yelling at the PVPers who are there - rare as it is - to not fight them and how wicked, evil, scum-of-the earth for *daring* to attack them in one of the only areas in the game they CAN PVP in. Even if they've said absolutely nothing about why they were there in the first place.
So - yeah, it's not just poor, innocent PVEers who are all sweetness, flowers and light and don't know a *single* four letter word getting picked on by evil PVPers. There's *quite* a bit of mud slung the other way, as well, and often *just* as unprovoked.
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If you could do, in pvp, what you do, in mayhem missions, it would be hella awesome.|
Originally Posted by IamLink
Still willing to donate to the "Make Safeguards/Mayhems a PvP mode" fund. =/
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I think the biggest barrier to pvp is that the pve in this game is just so much better at fostering social activity. in pvp, you go up against another player, that guy could very well be 6 to 8 times as powerful as you. He or she could be capable of soloing stuff ten times as tough as you without taking damage. When people build pvp characters, it's not to be fair. It's to be custom-built to destroy something without any chance of failure.
the idea of a fair fight is just alien to this game. How could you possibly arrange it?
you could have it all
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Apples and oranges. Besides, just because some things in the game can be improved on, doesn't mean that they all can, or even should be.|
Originally Posted by The_Masque
"PvP will never work, because it the game wasn't designed with it in mind"
This is my favorite line. I look at my characters today, IOs, Set bonuses, Incarnates, New powers, Cimerora, new accolades, Ouroboros, AE (fail). So many things were not "in mind" when the game was created, yet they are pretty well accepted and used. |
While player characters are arguably well balanced against the game's environment, it's pretty clear that they're rather imbalanced against each other and always have been. How well and how often could a Controller win against a Tank or a Brute on an otherwise even playing field? Even if they're both tricked out with IOs, accolades, set bonuses and Incarnate abilities. I'm sure someone out there's crunched the numbers already!
Besides that, it's easy to say that it could be improved on just because other parts of the game were improved on. But the devil's always in the details. Exactly how is it supposed to be improved? The devs have already made several attempts to improve it and those have all pretty much failed. What more could they do? Give all PCs in PvP zones an equal number of hitpoints? I don't know!
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Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
Um... that logic doesn't follow through. There isn't anything stopping you from just posting up this info in my thread. People being incorrect about something on the internet certainly doesn't disable the post button or anything.
I say this because when two people make two competing threads, the flow of the arguments in them go at different rates, and it gets really messy about who is keeping track of what is said where and when. It's easier just to keep everything in one spot. That way, you can have a discussion without it turning into thread warfare. |
The reason why I started a new thread was I didn't want this to be lost in the flood of "yeah I13 killed PvP".
If you wanted to know why people aren't pvp, ask someone who has been asking that question for the last 3 years.
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
Apples and oranges. Besides, just because some things in the game can be improved on, doesn't mean that they all can, or even should be.
While player characters are arguably well balanced against the game's environment, it's pretty clear that they're rather imbalanced against each other and always have been. How well and how often could a Controller win against a Tank or a Brute on an otherwise even playing field? Even if they're both tricked out with IOs, accolades, set bonuses and Incarnate abilities. I'm sure someone out there's crunched the numbers already! Besides that, it's easy to say that it could be improved on just because other parts of the game were improved on. But the devil's always in the details. Exactly how is it supposed to be improved? The devs have already made several attempts to improve it and those have all pretty much failed. What more could they do? Give all PCs in PvP zones an equal number of hitpoints? I don't know! |
Controllers can beat tanks/brute almost 100% of the time. /poison is a beast.
There is no such thing as balance in any competitive game. If there was there would no point in playing.
If there was a 50/50 chance of me winning in a fight no matter what, then why would I even want to compete.
There is a reason there is no competitve coin flipping league.
In PvE characters are certainly not balanced. If so why do do you hear people asking for corrs/defenders over PBs/WSs.
As far as improving pvp.
There should be some explanation of what happens to your stats in PvP, as well as your powers. Basically a tutorial or something to explain why mez always hits, and why BFs don't work... etc.
Remove TS- replace it with tethering. Melee attacks will TS you, but ranged attacks wont.
Strict monitoring of zones for code of conduct violations. Remove the <pancakes> and maybe the enviroment would be more conducive for the more sensitive players.
Paragon Studio supported PvP events. They are already doing build threads and costume contests. They can run/host a pvp event if they wanted. I'm sure Z would love to host.
I don't think there is anything fundamentally broken with PvP in this game.
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I can almost guarantee you that if this thread gets more than three pages long, it will become that very flood of "i13 killed PvP" posts, and from then on it will appear virtually identical to the other thread.
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Originally Posted by The_Masque
The reason why I started a new thread was I didn't want this to be lost in the flood of "yeah I13 killed PvP".
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Not all controllers use poison.|
Originally Posted by The_Masque
Controllers can beat tanks/brute almost 100% of the time. /poison is a beast.
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| There is no such thing as balance in any competitive game. If there was there would no point in playing. |
[citation_needed]
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This is wrong on a scale so epic I can't even see it all from where I'm standing.|
Originally Posted by The_Masque
If there was a 50/50 chance of me winning in a fight no matter what, then why would I even want to compete.
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Ask anyone who does serious game design and I promise you that is not even close to what they will tell you.
Said another way: "You keep using that word (balance). I do not think it means what you think it means."
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Shadowslip: 50 DDC
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Originally Posted by Party_Kake
If you could do, in pvp, what you do, in mayhem missions, it would be hella awesome.
I think the biggest barrier to pvp is that the pve in this game is just so much better at fostering social activity. in pvp, you go up against another player, that guy could very well be 6 to 8 times as powerful as you. He or she could be capable of soloing stuff ten times as tough as you without taking damage. When people build pvp characters, it's not to be fair. It's to be custom-built to destroy something without any chance of failure. the idea of a fair fight is just alien to this game. How could you possibly arrange it? |
Funny thing is, back when the arena was broken you would occasionally zone into players missions.
As far as fair fights, I don't think in any player vs player situation in any game its a fair fight. Sad thing to say but true.
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
This is wrong on a scale so epic I can't even see it all from where I'm standing.
Ask anyone who does serious game design and I promise you that is not even close to what they will tell you. Said another way: "You keep using that word (balance). I do not think it means what you think it means." |
Balance has always been a rallying cry for people wanting to *fix* PvP.
People want their flying AR/devices to perform at the same level as a fire/em blaster. That is doesn't work. It doesn't work in PvE it doesn't work in PvP.
You *can* make almost anything a viable PvPer- with the right build and skill. However, you will still perform better if you had a fotm with the right build.
I used to only PvP when MNP went because I liked trying to not get noticed while I buffed and healed him. I didn't get upset when I did get spotted and killed (normally I got spotted and they died for taking their eyes off the scrapper) and I enjoyed the interaction even though I was a runner not a fighter.
But then they changed PvP and when MNP tried it he didn't like the changes and now not only has he stopped going to the zones to PvP he no longer goes to get the powers either (when he bothers to play at all). So now I don't go into PvP zones. Issue 13 killed PvP for me.
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Masque is correct, to a degree. |
Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
Exactly where did you get this idea? All that I've read and studied about game design always stressed the importance of balance. [citation_needed] |
In a PVP centric game, you will never have absolute balance. Players, by nature, are very resourceful, and will always be discovering the next FOTM build that rules them all. It's the nature of things when you challenge your Community in a competitive environment.
MMORPG PVP, done correctly, is an enormous drain on resources. In order for it to be healthy and vibrant, you have to constantly nurture it, tend to it and occasionally trim it, all while it's screaming at you at the top of it's lungs about how the other person is more powerful than they are.
It's like a Bonsai, with the voice of Sam Kinison.
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
Just my two cents...
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Yep.|
Originally Posted by The_Masque
I would say there is a substantial population of players who shy away from physical violence and for them, even this virtual attack is off putting.
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Originally Posted by The_Masque
there are some players who find the speed at which PvP occurs (or used too) too fast for them to react. Side note: anyone watch that video of the guy doing the new I-trial, at one point he says "Sorry guys, I'm not used to my characters moving this fast". (mad props though, he only died once, and it was on purpose on a character that had no defensive toggles).
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Originally Posted by The_Masque
Most people won't play something they find frustrating for hours and hours.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
"Don't like to compete, prefer to beat on NPCs."
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Silly enough, I play this game for the storylines.
In PvE, some are really good, some are awful, but it's all a matter of taste.
In PvP they simply don't exist.
Keep NCSoft from shutting down City of Heroes : http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
Replace the #'s with periods, it doesn't work otherwise.
Interesting read, you forgot one though: 7) Caustic attitude on the forums from pvp'ers towards non pvp'ers. |
Reposted the link. Thanks, I typed up the wall of text on a word program and it copied over all messed up.
Caustic attitudes of PvPers... idk... man. I see a lot of it going the other way as well. Also, not ALL PvPers act that way. I don't think I have ever flamed a PvEr.
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Originally Posted by Flying_Carcass
Arenas are instances. But you probably are referring to being able to queue up for a PvP event and be placed on a team in a manner similar to LFG or battlegrounds in other games. I think such a system would go a long way towards getting some PvP action going... as of now the system-created PvP events don't and have never worked.
I can think of a few other reasons PvP is unpopular. PvP zones are too big; often times half the battle is actually finding the battle. The only objective is to kill the other player, which is a fine objective, but having a variety of PvP modes (such as capture points, king of the hill, capture the flag, ect) would add more tactical elements to the battle. Currently, there is no reason to PvP if you wish to complete PvP zone objectives, such as collecting nukes or shivans (in fact, its best to avoid PvP if you want to be successful at such tasks). In regards to the zones, if one side has more people than the other, the larger side has a major advantage. Getting camped in the Sirens Call hospital is not fun. PvP zones should also have a queuing mechanism to even out the zone populations... maybe have a scheduled battle over some objective every few hours or so... Lastly, there should be cross-server PvP (to increase the PvP player pool). |
Yes, I think when we all did the suggestions, the idea we were thinking of for instanced PvP was a cross-server or "team tper" type of instance. So the sides would be equal (in number).
I'm not PvPing because there isn't anyone around to PvP.
Why start a new thread?
Because in my opinion, the other thread posted by Blood Red Arachnid, was full of misconceptions, half truths, and urban myths about CoX PVP.
"I13 broke PvP"
PvP was broken before I13- People who state otherwise either have selective memory, didn't actually PvP back then, or played a mind dom (that last part is a 1/2 joke).
"Castle broke PvP"
1/2 truth- It was Castle's *work* that became I13 but if you are to believe what has been posted on other forums, the finished product was not how he envisioned it nor was it the actual "finished" product. Just like with most things I13 was suppose to be a work in progress, however, since his departure and the less than warm welcome to the changes, people just aren't willing to set up and take a swing at that hornet's nest.
"The Dev's don't listen"
I13, actually came about due to the Dev's listening in my opinion *TOO MUCH* Pre-13, community reps got on vent with PvPers and had a meeting to talk about what changes were desired and what was a priority# The post is still here btw:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=122744
Its a great read.
Travel suppression came about because people complained about "runners".
Heal Decay came about because people wanted to be able to defeat another player.
Diminishing returns came about because they wanted to *lower* the bar for entrance into PvP.
These suggestions came about from players who like some posters state:
"I would PvP if you changed xxxxx"
The truth is those people who made those suggestions aren't pvping, I have no clue as to if they ever did.
"The Devs have done nothing to fix PvP"
/e Facepalm
Lets go back to the priority list again:
1# Selectable Arena maps- Guess what... we got them.
2# Meaniful Rewards- PvP IOs #epic fail in implementation, but the reasoning was there#.
3# Only Affecting Self Timer- Fixed, sort of. Timer has been decreased to 10 seconds.
4# Villains have no +perception in Sirens Call- Fixed, side switching, Pain dom.
5# Instanced PvP- Nothing as of yet.
So 4 of the top 5 #and 4 of the top 4# requests were met, maybe NOT right at the release of I13 but as with everything in this game, its a work in progress.
"PvP will never work, because it the game wasn't designed with it in mind"
This is my favorite line. I look at my characters today, IOs, Set bonuses, Incarnates, New powers, Cimerora, new accolades, Ouroboros, AE (fail). So many things were not "in mind" when the game was created, yet they are pretty well accepted and used.
"The broadcasts and the attitude of punk kid PvPers is disgusting"
Some pvpers are trolls, some pvers are trolls, some badgers are trolls, some forum regulars are trolls. Broadcast pvp occurs because in any competition people get riled up. Also smart players know if you get your opponent riled up they will preform poorly. Honestly, imo, Broadcast in PvP zones should be eliminated.
Attitudes- I will agree with someone who posted that they have seen some horrible attitudes on farms, I-trials, and missions. Its everywhere. People feel that since they are anonymous that gives them the right to act like an <pancake>. Its not limited to PvP.
So why aren't people PvPing?
1) People take someone else shooting/hitting them personally. People are emotionally attached to their characters. So when someone attacks them they feel physically attacked. I would say there is a substantial (no I'm not calling you fat) population of players who shy away from physical violence and for them, even this virtual attack is off putting.
2) Twitch mechanics. This is kind of a cop out. CoX pvp isn't like a FPS where you have to aim while you run and hit a small area on a moving target. You just have to be able to not get caught on that one freaking bush sticking out of the ground while you mash 1,2,3,4 and spacebar. However, there are some players who find the speed at which PvP occurs (or used too) too fast for them to react. Side note: anyone watch that video of the guy doing the new I-trial, at one point he says "Sorry guys, I'm not used to my characters moving this fast". (mad props though, he only died once, and it was on purpose on a character that had no defensive toggles).
3) Time. It does take time to learn pvp. There is no tutorial. There is no explanation other than "you are entering a pvp zone, you will be attacked". Most people won't play something they find frustrating for hours and hours.
4) Rewards. What do you see most people doing these days. For me, I see a lot of players *grinding* if its for i-xp, astrals, Emps, Hero merits, Merits, XP, Inf. Farming is popular. PvP lacks rewards. Its too easily exploited if it gave "meaningful" rewards.
5) Attrition. Honestly, people grow up, they move on. As the population of Cox diminishes so does the population of people who pvp. Yes a "lot" of pvpers left after i13, and guess what.... a lot came back too. I am going to make up some numbers: If when CoX had a population of 50,000 and 5% pvped, then we had 2500 pvpers. Now lets say the population of Cox has decreased to 5,000 we would only have 250. The first number is pretty viable. If you are running around you might run into 1 of those 2500 players pvping, however, now that that the population is 250, the chances of you being in a zone when they are is minimal at best. This is the reason that zone pvp is dead on all servers except Freedom and maybe Virtue. I believe its simple attrition.
6) PvPEC is dead. PvPEC failed. I can say this because, I was PvPEC for a while. We didn't have the support of the community reps at the time, we didn't run enough events to get new players to try pvp nor for players to enjoyed pvp active. If there aren't any events, then, players who only enjoy pvping aren't going to play this game.
So that is why I'm not PvPing.