This is why I'm not PvPing.
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2012-04-17 15:38 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Y'know, that doesn't just go one way. I mention PVPing - even casually - and I'll end up with messages long afterward that, even if it's from (say) a guide that helped someone or a message that fixed a problem, has "I don't usually bother talking to a PVPer" or that was helpful... for a PVPer. Even if what I said (or the guide, or whatever) had absolutely zero to do with PVP. (Which is most of it.)
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Originally Posted by The_Masque
Caustic attitudes of PvPers... idk... man. I see a lot of it going the other way as well. Also, not ALL PvPers act that way. I don't think I have ever flamed a PvEr.
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I'm sure it goes both ways. I've never seen it, but I don't doubt it.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Or someone goes into a PVP zone and starts yelling at the PVPers who are there - rare as it is - to not fight them and how wicked, evil, scum-of-the earth for *daring* to attack them in one of the only areas in the game they CAN PVP in. Even if they've said absolutely nothing about why they were there in the first place.
So - yeah, it's not just poor, innocent PVEers who are all sweetness, flowers and light and don't know a *single* four letter word getting picked on by evil PVPers. There's *quite* a bit of mud slung the other way, as well, and often *just* as unprovoked. |
You know... when I entered into the game I assumed that PVP would be mostly a teaming thing. When I made my first toon a defender, I did so knowing full well that if I were to go into PVP, a scrapper would pummel me because I have team supporting powers and they have kill enemy powers. I never really expected it to be different, since my job in the game is to support other players more than it is to kill other players. I also assumed this to be true of general game content.
It wasn't until later that I learned that the game was being designed so every AT could solo it, and also that PVP was being designed in a similar fashion, too. This seemed a bit counter-intuitive to me, expecting every AT to be able to solo and survive every other AT in the game despite vastly different tools, different survivability, different damage output, and different set bonuses. All of the other games I've played that has had PVP (and even ones on MMOs) have always attempted to balance things in very rudimentary ways, like having three kinds of damage in one big paper-rock-scissors game. Any way you slice it, that is just re-skinned damage (the funny thing is that this still fails miserably at being balanced). That, or as Zwil said it is a never ending babysitting campaign where things are tweaked rather arbitrarily just to see what would happen and what works.
Though I13 does do some things that I kind of agree with. In theory it would be possible in pre I13 for a single dominator to perma-hold any non-defense based tank despite mezz resistance. My solution to this would've been to drastically crank the mezz resistance differences between classes, so instead of scrappers having 10 and tankers having 13, tankers would've had 24 and scrappers would've had 12. Sure, a tanker could probably go right through a troller with that mezz resistance (barring several factors such as incomplete mezz resistance or other debuffs), but in contrast a tanker couldn't do very well against a blaster that can continually blast the tanker from afar with very high damaging attacks. The blaster, however, has no mezz protection so the troller could hold it and then lay down containment damage.
Stuff like that. I haven't gone through the entire set of the game's powers to determine what would work and what wouldn't and what magnitude to put everything at, but I do think that there were alternate solutions to the problems that I13 attempted to solve.
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I haven't replied to a PvP-related thread in years, so it might as well be this one. Here's the perspective of a confirmed non-PvPer.
1) PvP relies on randomness. PvP is a situation where the protagonists of the game (my character and my team) get defeated, all other things being equal, about half the time, and nothing ever gets resolved. This is when PvP is working ideally. I don't like randomness. I already experience an environment where results are uncontrollable every day; it's called "real life." I prefer the predictability of the PvE game.
2) PvP is said to require "skill." This is the flipside of the problem of randomness. I simply can't accept the idea that a video game requires skill. To hear PvPers discuss this sort of thing, one would think PvP was like playing sports or doing something artistic. I've never felt like I was defeated by superior skill in PvP. I've been defeated by people playing characters designed with PvP in mind, but that seems a bit different. If you're playing an archetype and sets that do well there and you have a modicum of experience, you win. Again, I don't see how this constitutes "skill," and it actually irritates me when people treat it as such.
PvP is competitive. This is the big one for me, and, I suspect, for a lot of people who don't PvP. Enjoying PvP requires a different mindset from mine. To a PvPer, the game is a "game" in the sense that a football game is a "game." One side's trying to beat the other through a combination of ability and luck. To me, the game is a "game" in the sense of a "game" of let's-pretend or something along those lines. It is a recreational activity where the individual events may not be predictable, but the shape of the play is. It's an experience rather than a contest. This is true in the PvE game as well. I never feel like I'm trying to outbuild the game and rarely seek to exploit the rules to my advantage. On the other hand, for some players, doing just that is the main part of the fun involved. I am just a bad fit for PvP, period.
I hope that helps the data-gathering.
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-and 40 others on various servers
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I love PvP..... in other game genres entirely.
I like PvP that involves skill - unlike most MMO PVP.
Most MMO PVP wins MOSTLY come down to who spent more time on a character. It's all about who spent the time and in-game money to make dice rolls better than the other guy's dice rolls.
The only one I can think of that actually uses real skill is Planetside.
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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If no videogame requires skill in order to play it, then anyone should be able to win any videogame the very first time they play it, bugs notwithstanding. It also implies that no videogame has a learning curve. This... is some rather outstanding news to a lot of people!|
Originally Posted by Olantern
I2) PvP is said to require "skill." This is the flipside of the problem of randomness. I simply can't accept the idea that a video game requires skill. To hear PvPers discuss this sort of thing, one would think PvP was like playing sports or doing something artistic. I've never felt like I was defeated by superior skill in PvP. I've been defeated by people playing characters designed with PvP in mind, but that seems a bit different. If you're playing an archetype and sets that do well there and you have a modicum of experience, you win. Again, I don't see how this constitutes "skill," and it actually irritates me when people treat it as such.
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Unless you're using a very peculiar definition of the word "skill", I think this is more about you having some kind of problem with videogames.
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I dunno. Maybe if the two players are more or less equally threatening to one another, then the contest is decided on pure skill, rather than "Me and my 40-billion build vs you and your 1-billion build"|
Originally Posted by The_Masque
There is no such thing as balance in any competitive game. If there was there would no point in playing.
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Yes. Some people would ***** regardless.
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| If there was a 50/50 chance of me winning in a fight no matter what, then why would I even want to compete. |
The big pain in the butt for PVP is that it's essentially an almost completely different game than the PVE environment. Almost nothing works the same. And, as you said, there's no tutorial for it. In game, there's the intro mission, the various training arcs, etc.
In PVP it's "Toss them into the shark tank and see if they can learn to swim in time".
At least for me, that's a "Howsabout HELL THE **** NO?" proposition.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Yes. This might be the shot in the arm PVP would need to at least be more healthy in the game. *I* still won't play. But I'm not really against others who find it entertaining being thrown a bone.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
And I'm hopeful that if we manage to get crossshard teaming implemented, that the PVP system would end up being low hanging fruit.
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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I'm not one to tell people what they should and shouldn't think, but reading this part actually made me twitch.
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Originally Posted by Olantern
I simply can't accept the idea that a video game requires skill.
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I think Z figured out how to populate pvp zones. Have members of Paragon Studios show up in a pvp zone.
Can Black Pebble be next? 
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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This is one of the main reasons I have no interest in CoH PvP - yet still PvP in other games.|
Originally Posted by The_Masque
People want their flying AR/devices to perform at the same level as a fire/em blaster. That is doesn't work. It doesn't work in PvE it doesn't work in PvP.
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There's always going to be some imbalance, some powers or combos that are more effective than others. However, in CoH we get a much higher volume of powers and potential builds than the majority of other MMOs (and *way* more than most PvP dedicated games), and the powers/spells/skills tend to all be running at much higher power levels here than other games. So when imbalance does occur, it tends to be of a much higher magnitude than I've found elsewhere - and probably less likely to be fixed/addressed.
That doesn't matter so much in PvE because a) we only need to be strong enough to defeat the mobs and that's easier to keep to a certain level, and b) CoH's PvE is pretty easy so even the weaker builds can thrive.
When I play FPS games there tends to be less choice (in some, no choice at all, though that's less common these days), and the choices tend to be less significant. So while imbalance still exists - because perfect balance is basically impossible - the impact of which class and weapon/skill loadout I've selected is far lower, and my skill (or lack thereof) in the actual combat is still usually the determining factor. This is usually true even of other MMORPGs because they usually have much more restrictive choices, and a spell or power in those games tends to have far less impact than one here (especially in areas of mezz and buff/debuff). It's part of why I generally lose interest in the PvE in those MMOs and come back to CoH, but it's also why I usually do quite a bit of PvPing in them before my interest drops off.
So yeah, perfect balance isn't really achievable, but the imbalances tend to be a lot more manageable and lower magnitude in other games, so that's where I do my PvPing.
I think I have some sort of lingering PVP trauma, because my first supergroup enforced doing it, I was a newbie empath, and I just remember dying horribly over and over and over and being told I was in trouble if I didn't show up next time.
I am no longer with them.
Other than that, my only experience with pvp is gladiator battles, which are fun, and the sometimes troll who shows up in broadcast who thinks they win some argument because they're positive they can beat you in a pvp fight.
Aaand that's why I don't pvp.
Also because I'm the guy who always gets stuck in the bush.
In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
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I find this confusing. The PvE game is heavily predicated around the random number generator. Success or failure is strongly influenced by that randomness. The primary way to swamp this factor is to play at low difficulty relative to your and your characters' actual capabilities - the closer to the edge you push it, the more likely it is that randomness will be your undoing. If you don't think the PvE game is random, then you're taking it very easy. Not everyone does that.|
Originally Posted by Olantern
1) PvP relies on randomness. PvP is a situation where the protagonists of the game (my character and my team) get defeated, all other things being equal, about half the time, and nothing ever gets resolved. This is when PvP is working ideally. I don't like randomness. I already experience an environment where results are uncontrollable every day; it's called "real life." I prefer the predictability of the PvE game.
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| 2) PvP is said to require "skill." This is the flipside of the problem of randomness. I simply can't accept the idea that a video game requires skill. To hear PvPers discuss this sort of thing, one would think PvP was like playing sports or doing something artistic. I've never felt like I was defeated by superior skill in PvP. I've been defeated by people playing characters designed with PvP in mind, but that seems a bit different. If you're playing an archetype and sets that do well there and you have a modicum of experience, you win. Again, I don't see how this constitutes "skill," and it actually irritates me when people treat it as such. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
Again, "balance" does not mean what you seem to think it means. In fact, it is completely possible to make a powerset do something that makes it desirable. AR need not do as much single-target DPS as Fire Blast, but it should do something that makes people want to use it instead. If it is considered suck-tastic in all functional regards, then something is, in fact, wrong with it, and it should be changed.
Is balance going to be perfect, down to the decimal point? Of course not, especially when contrasting capabilities that do not relate directly. If one powerset does strong debuffs or mezzes and another does straight DPS, you're always going to have to define specific and probably conditions under which to compare them. But if your game system is such that debuffs rarely have practical value, then no one is going to value debuffing, and that set needs change. Any less intent than that is being lazy. Intent and reality don't always match, but if the intent is never there, the reality almost certainly won't be. "You can make anything viable with enough skill" is completely subjective hogwash and nothing but a cop-out. If something is so much not competitive for some form of play such that no one plays it except people who don't know better, it's not viable. If it's only played by people who are gods among gamers just to break even in performance with Jow Blow on some other powerset, it can be balanced better. |
What does "balance" mean to you, since my view of it is so off. Do you *not* mean that you believe that everything should be equal?
bal·ance
/ˈbæləns/ Show Spelled [bal-uhns] Show IPA noun, verb, bal·anced, bal·anc·ing.
noun 1. a state of equilibrium or equipoise; equal distribution of weight, amount, etc.
2. something used to produce equilibrium; counterpoise.
3. mental steadiness or emotional stability; habit of calm behavior, judgment, etc.
4. a state of bodily equilibrium: He lost his balance and fell down the stairs.
5. an instrument for determining weight, typically by the equilibrium of a bar with a fulcrum at the center, from each end of which is suspended a scale or pan, one holding an object of known weight, and the other holding the object to be weighed.
I think that we are talking about #1- correct?
You seem to want balance in the desirability of a every power set to be equal (in some situations). This is probably as true in PvP as it is in PvE.
I have seen more Trick Arrows played in PvP than I have in PvE. I have also seen more poisons played in PvP than I have in PvE. If we go as far as electric blasters and AR blasters, yes you do see them in PvE and you may run into a few in PvP but they are both few and far between. Again I think it boils down to the population size, time, and effort.
When there were a lot more people PvPing you would find players who made AR/devices work, tp foe onto landmines worked wonders. I saw people running ele/mental blasters as pseudo-sappers.
I guess I just don't think that the PvP aspect of the game is as broken as you believe it to be. The same phenomenon, occurs in the PvE aspect of this game everyday. There isn't a 'balance' of powersets across the ATs. People have found that some powersets seem to perform higher or are more synergistic together these power sets or choices become "fotm". The same is true in PvP.
Honestly, it was this type of call for "balance" that lead to the current state of pvp damage being partially calculated based on animation time. If anything damage maybe more balanced in PvP than PvE (maybe).
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I read this at 0Dark:30 this morning.|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
It's like a Bonsai, with the voice of Sam Kinison.
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This is what happened in my brain.
As you were.
Quintessence: the stuff, of which, heroes are made.
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This game would have needed some kind of objective based pvp that isnt farm the opposition as fast as possible while trying to stay alive. . But adding anything now is not going to happen since it already takes so much time to do basic bugfixes.
hell afaik widow indom will is still broken. and they already botched one fix on it.
And some people claim that theres no skill and we should all play fps. Those people probably play console fps's like modern cowa dutty where you dont actually have to aim properly since the game does it for you. Alot of people that have pvp'd in this game have come from fps's like counterstrike and quake.
There are a few things i consider skillfull in this game when it comes to pvp:
Teamwork
Communication
Awareness
Positioning
On another sidenote:
One of the biggest detriments to people trying/enjoying PvP is that typically their first or only experience occurs in Zone PvP.
Zone PvP is a pretty horrible way to start/learn/experience PvP in my opinion. First off, the sides are almost never even. I can't remember the last time I saw a zone where the fighting was back and forth. Typically, one side is dominating and the other side is forced to fight out of its base without much success.
Why does this occur, unfortunately, there are a lot of players who enjoy *winning* so if one side is dominating they will often play/switch to that side. This continues on until, finally a group of people say "this is dumb, lets switch".
Zone PvP also has the most frustrations therefore the most broadcast fighting. People get upset that someone got "their kill" or is "droning" or "won't leave the base". This really makes Zone PvP a pretty toxic place for someone who is just trying PvP for the first time.
Personally, I enjoy team based arena PvP more than any other type of PvP in this game. For the 1st timer it is pretty overwhelming to watch or play on a team with other pvpers but I think its possibly the best way to see what works and what doesn't work in PvP. Its also more "team" focused like the game is, so people can relate to their roles perhaps a little easier.
Duels can be a fun way for people to try PvP the unfortunate thing here is that you really need a great build (not just a good build) to win in a duel. Movement issues or lack of knowing where to hide/evade on maps can be a huge downfall. So while dueling can be a fun/exciting way to try PvP it can also be frustrating.
Also, if anyone hasn't, they should try talking to a PvPer about questions they have. I honestly, have found that the majority of the time they are more than willing to help people with builds, questions, tactics and such.
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Even with community rep backing it failed. There are people havent received codes for the last league an a lot of people cant get one since they only distribute the codes via pm's so people with premium accounts wont get one. When people try to talk to Zwillinger about this he just dodges the the issue entirely. | 6) PvPEC is dead. PvPEC failed. I can say this because, I was PvPEC for a while. We didn't have the support of the community reps at the time, we didn't run enough events to get new players to try pvp nor for players to enjoyed pvp active. If there aren't any events, then, players who only enjoy pvping aren't going to play this game. |
Hell there are people in u2bg who still havent received their t-shirts and other stuff they were promised for winning.
What happened to the stuff promised for the Champion pvp league? I mean i can understand not wanting to be associated to anything with Budweiser involved but still.
Bears repeating:
I love PvP..... in other game genres entirely.
I like PvP that involves skill - unlike most MMO PVP.
Most MMO PVP wins MOSTLY come down to who spent more time on a character. It's all about who spent the time and in-game money to make dice rolls better than the other guy's dice rolls.
The only one I can think of that actually uses real skill is Planetside.
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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Define real skill. Is hyperventilating a real skill?
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Originally Posted by JayboH
Bears repeating:
I love PvP..... in other game genres entirely. I like PvP that involves skill - unlike most MMO PVP. Most MMO PVP wins MOSTLY come down to who spent more time on a character. It's all about who spent the time and in-game money to make dice rolls better than the other guy's dice rolls. The only one I can think of that actually uses real skill is Planetside. |
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Guess.
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Originally Posted by TRTerror
Define real skill. Is hyperventilating a real skill?
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My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
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No. Back it up.|
Originally Posted by JayboH
Guess.
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What in planetside a game with three imbalanced factions has "real" skill.
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Yes, I do *not* mean that. Anyone who thinks that is what "balance" means outside of anything much more complex than tic-tac-toe is using the word incorrectly.|
Originally Posted by The_Masque
What does "balance" mean to you, since my view of it is so off. Do you *not* mean that you believe that everything should be equal?
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| 2. something used to produce equilibrium; counterpoise. |
You offset the absence of certain capabilities with the presence of other capabilities. All capabilities do not have to be equal. Importantly, in anything designed where classes of character can fight others cooperatively, any given class vs class face-off does not have to be a fair fight. However, you can create intricate webs of balance: for example, someone who's disadvantaged against one foe might be advantaged against a different foe or be able to provide advantage to an ally beyond their own DPS contribution.
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| When there were a lot more people PvPing you would find players who made AR/devices work, tp foe onto landmines worked wonders. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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What? I honestly didn't understand the request.
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Originally Posted by TRTerror
No. Back it up.
What in planetside a game with three imbalanced factions has "real" skill. |
My new Youtube Channel with CoH info
You might know me as FlintEastwood now on Freedom
The reason why i am not PvPing, is pretty much all down to the PvP community. Doesn't matter which game it is, there will always be someone there who will act all high and mighty and those who constantly berate and talk down to other players for their own mistakes.
I've tried PvP several times, and I've come to the conclusion that other people will always ruin my fun so I will not PvP anymore.
I've tried PvP arenas and such in diffrent games, I'd always end up getting rude tells from other players. Always on my own team, why i wasn't in 100 diffrent places at once. Guild people who I thought were friends would in a PvP match send really rude tells because i maybe didn't notice them 200 meters away and rushed to heal them.
I've tried playing on a PvP server and the amount of griefing and such there made it a horrible experience.
Also PvP in most MMOs are level and gear based. Which means you will see a fully geared max level char go to a newbie zone and camp newbies. It doesn't matter if they get penalized for it or not. They'll still do it.
I readily agree not all PvPers are such rude people, but there are enough to make it a bad experience every time i try it. One match i actually got one tell saying something like "Wow, you're a good player, you should pvp more!". But then there were five others which were not so nice, more like "****", "**** why didn't you heal me any?", "****ing hacker" etc etc.
The only good PvP experience i've had was in Planetside, until the devs ruined the game. Me and Chaya made an awesome duo, i recall when we held a tower from ten attackers, pushed them out and then took their base, just the two of us. Had so many fun moments in that game. Looking forward to the sequel.
And in the end of the beta where we had a last stand, ten of us in a tower, maybe 200 people attacking us, we held fast and lasted to the end, the Devs came and watched us defend and cheered for us. Was awesome
I'll never claim to have been great at it, but I did enjoy PvP prior to those changes. I enjoyed the fast paced action. But, whoever is at fault, I don't anymore. I wish that they would go back to the prei13 model.
@Joshua.