This is why I'm not PvPing.

There is a silly lvl 5 pvp ladder happening on Victory atm. The rules are: only TOs, ts/hd on, no insp, no repeating ATs, no repeating power sets.

If you can get a few people you should come, its funny.

Heh. About this

Not a real fan of the new mez rules...if they made it so you could break Mez by applying a fresh CM/Whatever I could live with it a lot more.

DR is ok...hits Defense kinda hard but Heal Decay is bleh.

Resists are meh. Beats carrying a tray of Oranges and a few Break Free into matches I guess, but the dual build feature would allow us to get Psi Shield, Fire Shield and so on.

Mixed bag at best and duel Sepultura already so they can challenge us in the Level 5 Ladder :P

PvP balance isn't supposed to neutralize player skill. But it is supposed to level the playing field when it comes to tools. The problem is that when it comes down to actual power levels, City of Heroes is so wildly unbalanced** that of course PvP is going to be as well. The only reason why those wild imbalances don't translate directly into wild measurable performance imbalances in PvE is because the game's design doesn't allow the reward system to always proportionately reward performance.

When it does, like oh, say, an AE PL farm, it becomes a lot more obvious.

But as to "perfect" balance being impossible, perfect anything is impossible. But "balanced enough to not matter anymore" is very possible. It just also happens to require a particular approach to the problem I think game designers are unable or unwilling to execute.

The enormous advantage MMO game designers have is that they not only make all the toys, they also make all the rules under which those toys must function. But I have *never*, *ever* seen an MMO in which the mechanics and offensive and defensive systems have been constructed in an integrated manner. If you do that, you can make a balanced PvP system because you can have mechanics and powers meet in the middle. If you try to bolt them together after the fact, you've just made the problem a hundred times harder, but still not impossible. Just highly improbable.

I suspect, however, the only way to prove this is proof by counter-example, and that's unlikely to happen anytime soon.


I'll make an even stronger assertion. I assert that PvP balance is *easier* than true PvE balance. The only reason this appears to not be the case is that its even harder to start with a system designed for PvE and then extend it to balanced PvP, and because most PvE systems aren't very well balanced either: they are not so much balanced as the reward systems are designed to dilute imbalances. But you can't do that in PvP, where the primary reward is "the enemy dies."



** There is also the argument that its wildly unbalanced PvE is part of the game's overall attractiveness, but that severely hampers PvP when the thing on the other side of the screen is another human being, and not a critter.

I think Uber's list and my list are pretty similar since we tend to team with the same groups of people. I could start listing names but even the players just from Justice would take a bit. I remember playing in a pentad plus tournament just before I13 which was a ton of fun but imploded as soon as I13 launched because 1) the I13 arena ruleset left PvP unplayable and 2) the players that didn't leave gave up on the tournament. There was a big 2v2 tournament shortly before I13 went into beta that had people paying for server transfers for a shot at a 500 million inf prize (remember that was a big deal back then). Very few of the players who participated in that tournament still play.


TS/HD/DR are the I13 changes, in a nutshell. Sure, there are other bits and pieces not there, but those are the three mechanics PvPers almost universally seem to dislike. I don't think any PvPer worth their salt pre-I13 would disagree with your assertion that the old system wasn't perfect. Everyone knew the system had its flaws and the community even had a nice list of things that needed fixing and how they could be fixed, and they were essentially ignored.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

I am not using the word in some special way that applies only to me. I am using it in a way that many game makers and players use. Specifically, I rebut that achieving "balance" requires that two characters facing off have to have a 50/50 chance of winning and have equal DPS, mitigation, mobility, etc., to achieve "balance". You specifically claimed that and used it to assert that balance is impossible and/or undesirable. There's a term for saying an untruth about something and using it to argue that the something is wrong or bad - it's a strawman argument.

I don't think CoH is as well balanced as it could be, either before I13 or after. I think better balance is a desirable goal. I will be very shocked if we ever get it, because it takes time and effort, and PvP is too niche a concern for our community.

OK. I13 chased most of the good ones away.

Because I was party to conversations involving a dozen or so people who did, zone and arena, pug and league/ladder, and I understand the mechanics of the game. While nothing is a replacement for actual experience, with a firm knowledge of game mechanics and some experience you can draw a lot of decent conclusions. When those conclusions are then verified by what other players who actually PvP a lot report, you can feel pretty confident that you're on the right track.

Both.

By the way, what are you attempting to imply with your emphasis asterisks on "friends"? Are you trying to insinuate that they didn't exist? That they weren't my friends?

Strawman. That's not what I claimed, nor is it the point. Again you're arguing against an easy to counter claim I did not make. If you want to argue with me, actually argue against what I say.

Dark Blast and Rad Blast did not exist for Blasters in I13.

Sonic was not that popular on Blasters because of its animations. It was more popular (though I still didn't see it used a lot) on Defenders.

And thanks for reinforcing my point about AR compared to the others.

Couldn't say, I didn't see much of that. (Level 5 PvP I mean. People I hung with did stuff like that sometimes, but not a lot. I never did it.)

No. I have explained why and how it is not. If you don't undestand, you aren't reading what I am saying. (Edit: Arcanaville is saying something similar, too.)

Too late, but...

Pedantic, much? Did someone have to leave the day I13 went live to leave because of I13? Con and a bunch of others in his channel left because of the decay of the PvP scene that resulted after I13, and Con and several others in his channel pretty directly attributed that decay of the community to the changes introduced in I13.

... What do you think those things are?

Yeah, and the community offered Castle a lot of suggestions that they felt would have improved what was not so hot while keeping some of the most attractive things - notably the mobility. Basically none of those suggestions are what happened, as I recall them saying. Mac and Flea can probably correct me if I've got that wrong, as they hung around the same crew.

Edit: Ugh. Posing in non-default fonts makes responding to clipped parts of the post really sucky.

*sits down in his armchair*

The only way I can see to possibly achieve anything even coming close to balanced enough to not matter anymore is to put two or more characters of opposing factions in the room with the exact same abilities, exact same attributes and exact same weaknesses. The environment must be completely symmetrical with zero variation at any point. Both players must be of exactly the same skill level (ratings systems do not accomplish this since they can be gamed) and all players must be playing on the exact same system with the exact same technical specifications on a connection that operates at the exact same speed/latency.

Or it can be turn based.

I never said that balance was achievable, only that its the same in PvE as it is in PvP.

Perhaps you missed Coyote_Seven's post:

This is what I responded to with:

So again, I didn't define "balance" as comparing one character to another and stating that "balance" ment that either player had an equal chance of wining. I was replying to a coment from another poster.

Therefore you are either being disingenuous by stating that balance does not mean what *I* think it means, or you simply didn't really read the posts.


Bolded pretty much what I've been saying this whole time. You desire a better balance, and I believe I asked (perhaps it was in a draft of my post) what would you do to create this balance you think is the only way to have viable pvp in this game? Honestly, have you even considered what you are asking for? Or because PvP isn't really up your alley do you instead just buy into what your "friends" told you?

Yet every league we get old school PvPers back who join and then leave again once the leagues are over.

I watched an episode of CSI once, but I don't think that qualifies me as a forensic scientist.

I also spend a lot of my time talking to surgeons, that doesn't mean I'm going to pick up a scapel or tell one how to do sugery.

I just do not understand how you can ride your high horse and lay judgement on an aspect of the game which you by your own admission have never really participated in. Maybe if you did, you would realize something can be fun without having to be 'balanced'.

Yes, I was. If this hurts your feelings in anyway, I do appologize.

They exist now. Sonic was popular on blasters, perhaps the 3rd most popular: following fire and Ice. I was actually serious about AR, you can pick a power set just for proc damage. Look at Rad blast, you can pick up some nice proc damage IOs from defense debuff sets as well as acc defense debuff. There is a KB set (Explosive strike I believe) that has a damage proc that allows it to be placed in various AR ST attacks.

Also for a humor break I offer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EARb4s9KVk8&feature=fvsr


Archery is great at low level pvp, due to its power recharge and its acc.

Just because Aracana says it, doesn't make it true. Just as Z saying Masque is right (sort of) doesn't make my points valid.

I understand what you are saying:

You think that everything should have a place- that every power should be
desirable in some situation. I get your idea of what balance means to you. However, my point is, that isn't a PvP phenomenon (oh btw Aracana also said something similar to this). Its a CoX phenomenon. So saying that PvP isn't viable or is broken because of this is pretty rediculous. If that is what makes PvP so unplayable and that is why people don't PvP then wouldn't everyone also not PvE?

I did post the link to what you are talking about here it is again:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=122744

I will also post what Putz listed under Power Balance Issues and Suggestions:

Look over those points, honestly, almost all of those have been addressed post I13. I'm not saying they are great fixes I'm saying that THESE are what the PvP community asked for (~175 PvPers).

As far as the dogma of blaming the devs/castle for DR/HD/TS. I hate to point out since I consider Putz to be a friend but here is the suggestion that was taken out of context and all of PvP was painted by too broad of a brush stroke:

So yes the suggestions were listen too, and unforunately, taken TOO far, rather than the popular belief that our voices were ignored.


Sorry my internet connection drops at work on my crappy laptop so I will often type things up on word and copy paste them to the forums.

Like I said up-thread, that's the most narrow definition of "balance" possible. I really don't understand why people think that's all it can mean.

Let me give you an example from an FPS. Yes, most FPS games are much, much simpler in terms of "classes" than an MMO, but we need a simple example to get the point across.

In Tribes (the original), there were three "classes", representing three weights of armor - light, medium and heavy. The Heavy armor was (probably unsurprisingly the toughest, and could carry heavier weapons. It was far less mobile. The light armor carried less ammo, could not use some weapons the heavy could, and was far more agile.

A head to head fight was not clearly dominated by one or the other with players of comparable skill. Their benefits had downsides. You were tougher on a heavy, but you tended to take more hits. You could dodge around more on a light, but the heavy had a wide-area blast weeapon that was extremely dangerous.

"Balanced" does not mean identical.

Z!!! have you not been reading Uber's Posts. THAT IS NOT BALANCE!

You haven't been reading my posts. It's balance. It's just the most narrow, limited form of balance possible.

Dual montiors ftw.


.

I've been reading them .

My direct experience has proven the opposite. Anecdotal observation has shown me that the minute you introduce any form of variation, you cannot obtain even relative balance in PVP. Even in systems which use direct mirrors, in my experience, it's impossible to obtain balance.

Edit: I do agree that what keeps PVP gameplay interesting is the fact that balance is a constantly shifting target. This introduces a dynamic element, for better or worse.

Pre-I13 pve knowledge was the same as pvp knowledge and if you knew any sort of fps tactics on top of the basics of coh pve you were golden. Dont try to make pvp out to be some secret society that only the anointed ones could understand, that only happened post-I13 and the convolution caused by TS/HD/DR. The mindset that pvp was so hard and had to be formally taught is arguably what got us I13 in the first place.

Also, if you actually knew Con you'd know he pretty much pvp'd for the lulz that could be had. He was never all that competitive but he made pvp enjoyable mostly from his personality. His test league team came after I13 because there was a vacuum and we knew pvp was beginning to circle the drain.

In what you quoted, I'm saying that if you asked someone what (game) balance is, what you said is not what they would describe.

In direct response to Zwil, I also then said:

It is narrow. Unfortunately (IMHO) true PVP balance has to exist in a vacuum, meaning only ever on paper and never actually played.

The minute you introduce outside influences, all of that awesome design goes out the window.

YMMV .

Let me be clear, I don't think that perfect balance is reasonably achievable, whether or not it's technically possible. But as Arcanaville I think mentions, it is always possible to get it "close enough". What's "close enough"? That's always going to have to be subjective, but if your player community can, without developer help, reasonably respond to other players' complaints that something is weak with reasonable situations (not just rare edge cases) where it's actually desirable, and that's true of most of the options available, then you are probably well on your way to a pretty well-balanced game.

That's where the developer time investment you mentioned comes into play. I don't think any game, PvE or PvP is balanced out of the gate. But iterative observation and change should allow it to be modified to be closer and closer to balanced.

There's an interesting thing I've heard said about PVP design as it pertains to balance: If everyone is complaining that the other person is too strong, then we're successful. If one particular segment of the community isn't complaining (i.e.; a particular class/archetype) we should probably look at them.

Personally, I don't think it's possible to ever get it "close enough" because even "close enough" is entirely subjective. "Close enough" for who? And by what yardstick are you measuring it by.

Off topic: I do appreciate the genuine conversation happening in this thread about design theory and principals. It's nice that we're able to discuss this without it becoming heated .

And he keeps dodging.

If you don't have direct access to PM's, you can always send an email to cohcommunity@paragonstudios.com. As to me not responding to PM's...I do my best, but I'm also currently sitting on over 4000 Private Messages received in the last 13 months, with only 300 marked as unread or unresponded too. I do need to occasionally sleep .

As to PVP events prior to my time here, I have no idea what was promised or what should have been awarded. If someone can provide me documentation and some kind of record of who should have received what and hasn't, I will of course do my best to rectify the situation.

An interesting postulation, however there will always be a segment of the Community which holds the develops directly accountable for perceived inequities in a PVP environment, no matter how many tools you offer them. Warranted or not, this influences the perception of others.

Managing a PVP community is an exercise in psychology (no negative implications implied.)

This could have been said months ago when the issue was brought up.

My bad?