This is why I'm not PvPing.

hand-eye coordination
reaction time

basic necessities.

/brainmelt

I don't PVP 'cuz it's way too hard to understand.

Yes, some people no matter what will never try PvP. Samuel Tow said pretty much that (I believe).

Those other things will repell some players from trying pvp as well.

What we attempted to do with Boot Camp was to remove as many of those as possible.

It was made clear from the get go, that this was only for learning and having fun, rather than a true competition.

Trash talking was strongly frowned upon, pretty much every PvP event I have ever hosted on Victory has been free of Trash Talk.

Most of the reasons people dislike PvP is their experience with Zone play, that is really unforunate.

miss Shu and Stella

and there should have been a drinking game for whenever Crita would say "YOU'VE BEEN CRITA-KILLED!" ...if there wasn't one already <.<

I know how to fix it and I've been saying it ever since PvP was first mentioned: everyone has to be equal. Full stop.

Anyone who's played an FPS knows that's the only way to truly have workable PvP. Even in games like Team Fortress 2 where you have classes, each class has one specific advantage and one specific detriment to balance things out. And then you have equal teams. When they become imbalanced, there's a feature that switches a player to the opposite side to even things out again. Everyone has to be equal individually and each team has to be equal.

Problem is, almost no one wants that to happen in this game. People would have a fit if a Stalker and Tank had equal hit points and did equal damage, and people would further lament over their hero being forced to switch to villain and vice versa. I would happily play that way, but I doubt many others would.

All of which is why I say PvP doesn't fit MMOs unless the game was designed for it from Day One.

Yeah a system like that would not encourage me to pvp....just saying.

Originally Posted by Paladiamors I love you, I Burnt the Toast!

This might be me. I deal with so many needy and jerky people in real life I'm not sure I could bring myself to deal with any even in the best PvP system in the world.

That said, for those who love it, I hope it gets fixed. My buddy would love it and I know that many on this thread do as well.

It's kinda the same reason I don't like to lead. I have to make decisions and herd cats all day, at night I just don't want to be responsible for anybody but me. Maybe selfish, but very relaxing just to have somebody else do it and just bash bad guys.

FPS PvP is not the same thing as MMO PvP. Not even close. It's very possible to have enjoyable PvP mechanics in an MMO (EVE does this, WoW does this, pre-I13 CoH did this, and to an extent post-I13 as well) without having everyone be the same. To illustrate an example, let's look at two of the major FPS games on the market right now - Battlefield and Call of Duty. Battlefield is, arguably, a much more team-centric game due to having character classes with different weapons, equipment, strengths, and weaknesses, with some degree of customizability. You might be able to lone-wolf in Battlefield, but there will always be some situations where you're at a disadvantage because you aren't the right class to handle a particular encounter (for example, a medic going up against a tank really only has one possible outcome). In Call of Duty, other than weapon and perk choices there aren't any character classes and every player is more or less capable of lone-wolfing the game. Communication and team play factor more heavily into the Battlefield experience simply because the game is designed around it.

MMOs are more like Battlefield than Call of Duty - there are character classes with their own strengths and weaknesses, and some classes won't be as well-equipped to deal with a situation as another class might be. Teaming solves those weaknesses in PvE as well as PvP. In a multiplayer, class-based game, it's nigh-impossible to have "perfect" PvP balance in 1 vs 1 encounters (or even small-team encounters) because everything has a counter. However, the picture of balance starts to become more clear once you factor in large-team PvP, which has, at least in CoH, generally been considered the pinnacle of organized PvP pretty much since PvP was introduced. A particular one of your characters might be at a disadvantage against another player's character, but odds are pretty good that you've got a character that would be at an advantage over that character, and so on. That's just the way class-based PvP works, whether it's in an MMO or an FPS. When you've got two full teams working together and communicating, you can make up for each others' deficiencies, allowing two roughly-balanced teams.

In short: everyone does not have to be equal for PvP balance to occur. Even if that were the case, the idea of balance you have would be impossible since it fails to take player skill into account, which is something you can't adjust for no matter how good you are at "balancing" - it's just too big a variable. Just as in the PvE game, Stalkers are good at doing lots of damage really fast to a single target, while Tankers are good at soaking up damage and managing aggro. What players fail to realize is that to an extent these roles carry over to the PvP side of the game (though to less of an extent than they did pre-I13), so they complain that X always beats Y so nerf X when really Z can beat X and A can beat Z and so on. Characters are designed to have weaknesses so they can't "do it all," nor should they be able to. To use the FPS example again, if I'm a medic going up against a sniper from hundreds of yards away, it doesn't mean the sniper should be nerfed, because that's the role a sniper excels at.

@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

I truly don't accept that as true. I think PvP in Guild Wars was really well done, back when I played it. (That was back before the first expansion, so if it sucks now, I missed it.) There was definitely no one-on-one "balance", and PvP was very much about the whole-team build. It created a huge variety in rock/paper/scissors type interactions between different themed teams - you could have a team that dominated a bunch of other teams but would completely collapse if the other team was some other specific build. And harkening back to Zwil's comments about good PvP requiring tons of dev investment, GW's powers were constantly being tweaked and changed with the rather express intent of keeping the FoTM a shifting target.

Sure, if people define "PvP" as one-on-one duels or deathmatch, then yeah, the only way to have decent PvP is if everyone is basically the same. But any time you have a team game, that stops being required to have "balance".

There was also some implications at the time of Executive Meddling, though I don't think that was or ever will be confirmed.

Indeed, the problem was that the Dev team at the time ignored a sizable portion of the establishment to cater towards potential new participants. In Business Economics, I believe they call this "Churn". This gamble didn't work because the changes failed to attract new members to replace the old, even though the instructions they provided for garnering their interest were followed almost to the letter.

But as your entire post laid out, this whole thing was way more complicated than an Us VS Them scenario. PvP has always been a series of complicated problems.

I dont want to get around it. Incadescance is retarded. No HD is much better than being able to chain AP without being punished.

Afaik Kat didn't get any codes. they were pm'ed out randomly to people that they felt like on the list submitted to them where people with pm access could ask for one if they overlooked it. Thats why i have an issue with Zwillinger nonchalant saying "my bad?" several months later. Idgaf about the code myself, its the principle.


As far as the t-shirts: http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.asp...9114598&Page=1