Heh, you're treading dangerous ground.
I agree though, every time I see people justifying purposeful gimping of their build as concept I *headdesk*. But then again I just tend to avoid those threads/people anyways. Basically if they want to go running around with subpar builds that's their business.
I don't get why anyone worries about anyone else's build.
If you see something they're missing that might help, mention it - once - politely, in a tell. If they ask why, explain what it does. If they mention it's a concept or they have some other reason, shrug and move on. At most, if it's actually causing THEM (not you) excessive trouble, mention dual builds, then let it drop. You don't need to "get" it. You're not paying their sub. They're having fun their way, and it's not hurting you. The game's not that hard, they're not "dragging the team down" unless their concept is "I stand at the door throughout the mission."
(This is not to be confused with playstyle. If they're *actively doing something* to disrupt the team because of RP or whatnot and didn't warn the team? Such as "I hate seeing people sliding on ice" so they keep intentionally knocking people off ice slick? Say something. But if it's just "They didn't take X power I think is important?" Then leave it be.)
Only thing I can't stand are snobby players who go around putting other peoples builds down as "gimped" because they aren't min/maxed, or are playing an AT or powerset they don't like. Bothers you that much? Shut up, put in a playernote, and leave the team.
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There are occasions where you'll need something that is strangely missing. I remember once being on an UG trial with 2 Tanks and several more brutes. Not one of them had taunt, so we couldn't direct the targeting effects of the Warwalkers. This met it's apex at the Self-Repairing WW where we couldn't keep an offense on it due to targeting, so the trial failed miserably.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I don't get why anyone worries about anyone else's build.
If you see something they're missing that might help, mention it - once - politely, in a tell. If they ask why, explain what it does. If they mention it's a concept or they have some other reason, shrug and move on. At most, if it's actually causing THEM (not you) excessive trouble, mention dual builds, then let it drop. You don't need to "get" it. You're not paying their sub. They're having fun their way, and it's not hurting you. The game's not that hard, they're not "dragging the team down" unless their concept is "I stand at the door throughout the mission." (This is not to be confused with playstyle. If they're *actively doing something* to disrupt the team because of RP or whatnot and didn't warn the team? Such as "I hate seeing people sliding on ice" so they keep intentionally knocking people off ice slick? Say something. But if it's just "They didn't take X power I think is important?" Then leave it be.) Only thing I can't stand are snobby players who go around putting other peoples builds down as "gimped" because they aren't min/maxed, or are playing an AT or powerset they don't like. Bothers you that much? Shut up, put in a playernote, and leave the team. |
There is a line, though. A point where needs becomes wants. I, myself, will sometimes take powers that are redundant or borderline useless just because they are fun or it would fit the concept. The line is whether or not you have the basic functions of your AT's and/or powerset's expectations covered and slotted well enough to perform those functions. It isn't that hard for the most part: Tanks are tough and handle aggro, controllers hold and mezz enemies, blasters die like dogs, ect. You can make a case for using such crazy things, such as if you have an alternate build so you never use your gimped one for teaming, or if you only team with people who are O.K. with your crazy antics. But if you go teaming with other players and you aren't contributing enough to make up for the difficulty increase that the team gets with you on board, it becomes that team's problem.
TPN trial guide video / MoM trial guide video / DD trial guide video / BAF trial guide video
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I don't care as long as they don't falsely advertise.
If you are playing a 'concept build' tanker that is missing something, does not wish to play as a front line tank, or is not capable of truly tanking... I expect to see that in your lfg info or be informed of it if you send me a tell to join a group. If I invite you knowing that, it's on me as a group leader. If you join as 'the tank' then we get in and you can't tank that's all on you.
Sounds like common sense but it has come up.
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There's varying levels of concept build... the kind you're talking about lies on pretty much the far extreme of the spectrum. Frankly, I'm not even sure what kind of concept would preclude Unyielding. The character is... abnormally suggestible, I guess? Unusually light and easy to throw around?|
Originally Posted by Ukaserex
I don't mean to offend, but isn't that the case? A tank without status protection? What's that all about?
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But hey, if they really do for some reason want to play a character that is abnormally suggestible, it's their character. I can choose not to team with them, or if I'm leader I can choose not to let them join my team, if it is excessively detrimental to my playing experience. Since most teams can do fine with one person completely absent, though, having one person be mostly ineffectual should usually not be a severe detriment.
Most concept builds, that I've seen, are not nearly so limited. A Fiery Melee character that skips the sword attacks (or, alternately, that uses only the sword attacks), or choosing an epic pool that is clearly inferior, or etc. These things do limit a character's effectiveness, but not in a horribly crippling way.
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This pretty much. Concept affects everyone to one extent or another. My Plant/Emp is focused around using Vengie (sacrificing an individual to draw power from the Earth) and doesn't really like healing. She's a controller and buffer; If you die on her watch you'll be making the team more awesome with your death, plus she'll bring you back and you'll become unstoppable for a bit (you're next for power boosted Fort + AB).|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
There's varying levels of concept build... the kind you're talking about lies on pretty much the far extreme of the spectrum. Frankly, I'm not even sure what kind of concept would preclude Unyielding. The character is... abnormally suggestible, I guess? Unusually light and easy to throw around?
But hey, if they really do for some reason want to play a character that is abnormally suggestible, it's their character. I can choose not to team with them, or if I'm leader I can choose not to let them join my team, if it is excessively detrimental to my playing experience. Since most teams can do fine with one person completely absent, though, having one person be mostly ineffectual should usually not be a severe detriment. Most concept builds, that I've seen, are not nearly so limited. A Fiery Melee character that skips the sword attacks (or, alternately, that uses only the sword attacks), or choosing an epic pool that is clearly inferior, or etc. These things do limit a character's effectiveness, but not in a horribly crippling way. |
People on teams who have suggested that she stop controlling and heal instead end up on the Sacrifice list.
That all being said it's rare enough someone actually dies when she's on the team. The concept is there and used but it actually doesn't weaken the team at all or affect them much, unless they're of the "OMG, we got a healer" mentality (the correct response being "OMG, I got Vengie Bait")
I think this is a really interesting topic. Especially since when I'm done kitting out my current projects and a couple I have lined up after that I want to start on a non supered archer character. This doesnt mean I'll be skipping primary/secondary powers but it does mean i'll be purposely not slotting purples everywhere or any other really expensive IO's.
How does everyone feel about something like that? Prolly not something most would mind, but in my head I am "gimping" this character. Especially after the 10 or more characters before it will get as many purples/LotG's as they want along with recovery procs.
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Par for the course for my characters. Lots of people don't bother with super-duper builds on their characters. I tend to Frankenslot and use some PROCs, nothing more. I rarely bother with set bonuses (my Widow & Fort did, no-one else did really)
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Originally Posted by RevolverMike
I think this is a really interesting topic. Especially since when I'm done kitting out my current projects and a couple I have lined up after that I want to start on a non supered archer character. This doesnt mean I'll be skipping primary/secondary powers but it does mean i'll be purposely not slotting purples everywhere or any other really expensive IO's.
How does everyone feel about something like that? |
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My characters tend to be "super" enough without IOs. So I don't call that a concept in the least. I've gone ahead and soloed Ramiel's Incarnate unlock arc on SOs.
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Originally Posted by RevolverMike
I think this is a really interesting topic. Especially since when I'm done kitting out my current projects and a couple I have lined up after that I want to start on a non supered archer character. This doesnt mean I'll be skipping primary/secondary powers but it does mean i'll be purposely not slotting purples everywhere or any other really expensive IO's.
How does everyone feel about something like that? Prolly not something most would mind, but in my head I am "gimping" this character. Especially after the 10 or more characters before it will get as many purples/LotG's as they want along with recovery procs. |
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You're absolutely right. And, I have to admit, I am at least a bit "snobbish" when it comes to things like this. But, I'm trying not to be. First, I'm wondering if they may, in fact, be having more fun and getting more out of the game than I am. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
You don't need to "get" it.
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You know, I've never taken whirlwind on a toon. Never. I honestly couldn't tell you if it's good, bad or whatever. I've never taken it because I've seen the way it flings baddies around in a Frostfire mission and thought, "Good thing I'm on a blaster and don't need to chase those down." That, and the complaining from the melee on the team sort of made my mind up.
Obviously, this rubbed you at least a little bit the wrong way, and I apologize. That wasn't the intent. If everyone played the way I did, and built their toons the way I did -(I admit, it'd be interesting if everyone did that, just to see) - then I'd probably refuse to team. I only consider myself as a slightly better than mediocre player. (and that's part of the reason I try to give the toon all the help it can get.)
Thanks for the responses, all of you. While in my pensive mood, you have helped.
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
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Originally Posted by Ukaserex
it's a "concept build"
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Hmm, this is a bit of a tangent, but for a while now I've been wondering what will happen to CoH when it is finally put out to pasture by NC Soft. My personal plan involves having the dev's last act basically be to beef up the Mission Architect as much as possible, and let the players create their own content. (Which should be fun in its own right.)
But these "concept" builds might be another way to extend a aging MMORPG. There's another superhero MMORPG that lets you build a much more "custom" character so that you could truly express your individual ideas.
I'm not after tank mages here (play a VEAT
), but something that really allows a lot more options. Like what if my concept is a vigilante with a gun who also has dual pistols for back up and knows martial arts? I think that's impossible right now. But it shouldn't be impossible to do, and doesn't have to be unbalancing if the values on damage and defense are within reason.I think I'll add that to my personal wish list. Improved Mission Architect plus custom characters.
Well, I think the whole concept of, er, "Concept" builds is taking the customizability of a character to the next level. You can make a character look however you want. You can make their powers look how you want. And you can choose which powers your character has access to. And this helps complete the look, feel, and nature of the character.
For instance, let's say I wanted to make a guy who punches with fire... well, why would he make a sword? it makes no sense! So I skip the two fire sword attacks... but then, I'm missing two of my best attacks, too. The game is easy enough that I wont suffer too much for it.
In a less hypothetical example, I have a Fire/En blaster. I skipped fire-breath because i RP him as a plamsa being, so randomly spitting fire doesn't seem like something he'd do. I'd also skipped Rain of Fire for the longest time because it never made sense to me that he'd use his powers in that particular fashion... but finally relented and took it once i realize how much more effective I became with it. I never got flak for it, and because I was skipping key AoE powers, i made up for it by having other useful utility powers like stealth and the whole assortment of APP abilities =)
...a Tank without status protection or Taunt, though... I can see that turning bad for the team. Might as well send a Blaster to keep an AVs attention =/
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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There's a very good chance that if CoH went the route of custom characters (in the way that you are describing) I would be leaving the game. I love the system that is in place now and can't stand the ones that you are referring to.|
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
But these "concept" builds might be another way to extend a aging MMORPG. There's another superhero MMORPG that lets you build a much more "custom" character so that you could truly express your individual ideas.
I'm not after tank mages here (play a VEAT ), but something that really allows a lot more options. Like what if my concept is a vigilante with a gun who also has dual pistols for back up and knows martial arts? I think that's impossible right now. But it shouldn't be impossible to do, and doesn't have to be unbalancing if the values on damage and defense are within reason. |
That being said, you've made me realize there -are- things the devs could do that would result in me cancelling my subscription!
I have an Ill/Kin who has been booted from many a team once recruited because she doesn't have Speed Boost (or Increased Density or Inertia Reduction). Have all the debuff enemy to buff party because her "concept" is shifting luck around.
Am I sad about that, not really since all they wanted was a buff bot so the rest of the team could steamroll through missions. I prefer my teams to have more than "bum rush 'em" as the sole tactic for every mob.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
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Tempus unum hominem manet
I'll throw my hat in with the "do what ever you want, but if your 'concept' build omits certain key things that the general strategy would require of you" (most often tanks who are unable to do so), Then I'll let you do your thing.
However I do tend to comment on builds when people start to kvetch about one thing or another... Like on this one AE farm I was on way-back (Freak LTs in massive spawns due to defend objectives)... Tank was doing his thing, then a lvl 50 Claws/SR scrapper starts moaning that it's impossible for him to stay upright, so he'll just lay on the floor... Well, My Claws/SR is holding her own, so I look at his build... sure enough, many key reflexes powers are missing, and in their place is as many powers as is humanly possible to get from all the travel power pools. 
in some ways I kinda miss some of the hilarity the AE babies brought with them.
"My inner mind has become a reality-cracking overgod. He torments me! Help!"
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I used to hate Fire Breath for conceptual reasons. One character was a tech oriented character with a powered armored suit, and I REALLY didn't like fire shooting out of his faceplate instead of his gauntlets. |
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
In a less hypothetical example, I have a Fire/En blaster. I skipped fire-breath because i RP him as a plamsa being, so randomly spitting fire doesn't seem like something he'd do.
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When they came out with "alternate animations" in the costume creator -- for Fire Breath, an animation that shoots fire from the hand -- that was THE FIRST alternate animation I grabbed!
(I'm also a big fan of some of the alternate animations for Super Strength and Martial Arts, too -- thanks, devs!)I'll agree with the "extreme concept builds & players that (perhaps) take things a bit too far in leaving out key powers" should probably warn the rest of the team in advance, like the not-so-Unyielding Invuln tank in the first post. On the other hand, minor "customization" like the sacrificing Plant/Emp or a Speed Boost-less Ill/Kin still seem like viable characters even if they're not from the same cookie cutter as many others.
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
I prefer my teams to have more than "bum rush 'em" as the sole tactic for every mob.
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This isn't the thread for me to rant (again) about how I think that -- until recently -- this game's just gotten one big "Easy Button" after another. Still, it seems to me that we've got a bunch of players who are used to steamrolling old content with no strategy except for "zerg." Then, when they're faced with new, more difficult content like Incarnate Trials and the revamped Dark Astoria they just cry "it's too hard!" since they haven't had to USE (or perhaps even learn) any strategy to speak of.
"But it wasn't anything some purples and oranges and lots of screaming in fear couldn't handle." -- Werner
30 level 50's: 12 scrappers, 7 other random melee types, 11 blaster/blapper/support squishies, two accounts, and a TON of altitis since 4/28/04
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Rant away! You are not the only one who thinks this way, not by a long shot.
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Originally Posted by Eldorado
This isn't the thread for me to rant (again) about how I think that -- until recently -- this game's just gotten one big "Easy Button" after another. Still, it seems to me that we've got a bunch of players who are used to steamrolling old content with no strategy except for "zerg." Then, when they're faced with new, more difficult content like Incarnate Trials and the revamped Dark Astoria they just cry "it's too hard!" since they haven't had to USE (or perhaps even learn) any strategy to speak of.
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"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase
I actually have a concept build of the manner you seem to be referring to. (Don't worry, this thread has caused no offense, been remarkably flame free.) It's a Mind/Emp, who was meant to be a purely telepathic character. I didn't take Levitate or Telekinesis for that reason.
Of course, since I was locked into Healing Aura, I hand-waved Heal Other. But I reasoned that once someone was dead, there wasn't much I could do for them, so I didn't take Resurrect. Clear Mind seemed easy to rationalize, and I took Fortitude (although I no longer remember why, maybe some form of mental linking?) Recovery Aura I figured let allies ignore their fatigue, but I couldn't rationalize Regeneration Aura the same way - no amount of altered perception is gonna make you heal faster. Adrenaline Boost actually is easy to rationalize, and perhaps I should have taken it, but I'm a mostly solo player and I decided I liked Invisiblity better (projects a notice-me-not field).
I did take the entire Leaping and Leadership pools, and most of Psionic Mastery, in replacement for the powers I skipped (and Stealth to unlock Invis).
This was my first character, made way back in I5. Also, I prefered to concentrate on locking down enemies rather than heal/buffing. I've rarely had complaints (usually about no Res) and have gotten some compliments, so even by skipping what some see as 'key' powers, it's possible to still do well on a team.
That said, I've hesitated to take this character past UG in the Incarnate Trials, where the lack is a tad more noticeable. (I craft the temp rez nowadays as needed, but those don't work in Incarnate Trials of course.)
Champion 50s (blueside): Marc Bridge, Nicole Bridge, Fred Blaze, Colleen Storms, Sun's Chariot, Moon's Huntress, Point of Pride
Guardian 50s (redside): Connie Mand
AE arc: Spirit Plane Invasion, #29282, @Honbrid
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Character concept is important to me. Usually it doens't interfere with creating a character that is also useful on teams and has all of the "expected" powers for a given powerset. However, I do have a few characters for which certain concept choices have limited that character's effectiveness. My solution is simple: I only use those characters for solo play.|
Originally Posted by Ukaserex
You know, I've never taken whirlwind on a toon. Never. I honestly couldn't tell you if it's good, bad or whatever. I've never taken it because I've seen the way it flings baddies around in a Frostfire mission and thought, "Good thing I'm on a blaster and don't need to chase those down." That, and the complaining from the melee on the team sort of made my mind up.
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The best example I can think of is a character for which I took Whirlwind. That character is a Djinn, and I felt that whirlwind was the perfect power to take. But I also know that other players, especially those with melee characters, hate knock back, which whirlwind delivers in spades. So I don't use that characer on teams.
There's a huge difference between a "concept" build and creating a character that's a useless leech. Especially when we have secondary builds that we can use for any extreme "concepts" and still have a decent build for team play.
I'm looking at the useless "Healor" builds I've seen. In particular I'm reminded of a 40+ Emp that only had 1 attack and just the heals and res from the Empathy set. The rest filled up with non combat powers from the power pools.
Typically I neither look nor ask about another's build unless they ask a question first. My fun I can't say has ever been impeded enough to worry about ... 2 teammates "yelling" back and forth ruins it far faster than anything some concept build no matter how odd it might be ever would. Occasionally in the past this meant watching the melee character get mezzed or knocked around or me chasing things around more than usual on my scrapper.
About the only exception for me that sometimes frustrates me (more than angers) is an Empath who not only is built like Forbin has described but seems unable to keep his fellow squishies (such as my Emp) buffed as they are seemingly so focused on the Tank/Brute/Scrapper(s). The result of their play style (being generous) frustrates me precisely because I'm so aware of the lost potential from having 2 Empaths on a team, particularly post 32 characters, being a bit of an Empath fanatic (not to mention getting mezzed repeatedly etc.).
Doomguide
players have the freedom to build their characters any way they like.
teams have the freedom to ignore characters that have eschewed important key powers in their builds.
Somewhere between the two extremes lies a happy middle ground, unriven by strife and conflict...
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
My concepts usually include the powers found in a given power set. If they didn't, I probably would have chosen a different set.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Heres something to ponder, I recently threw together a Corr build in Mids that took Sonic as its secondary. The build only takes sonic siphon and sonic dispersion. The concept was for an "armored" ranged character. It's currently sitting at S/L softcap and 75% resists to S/L while everything else but psi is at around 20%.
Its bad for an empath to not take attacks, but is it bad for a Corr to not take ally shields?
For years, I have seen this term. But, I'm not sure that it means what I think it means.
Invariably, when I read about someone's invuln tank that doesn't have Unyielding, and they mention it's a "concept build", the first thing that runs through my head is "Okay, so, what you're telling me is that you don't think your character would have that ability, so everyone else on your team has to take up your slack."
I don't mean to offend, but isn't that the case? A tank without status protection? What's that all about?
I'm sorry folks, I'm just too obtuse to get it.
I can understand making nice costumes. I can understand writing your "origin". I can even understand roleplay (though, admittedly, more than a few in-character comments would drive me insane). But to choose to not take powers that you KNOW are in the best interest of you and your team just seems kind of .....insensitive? Thoughtless? Nah, that's not the word...ah, I got it - outside the norm.
How does a selfish Empath defender get along on a team, thematically?
Or a Fire tank, who refuses to take Fire Shield because it obscures the look of their costume?
I know that it's a wonderful thing that the archetypes and powersets we choose are not formed from a cookie cutter. But, why leave the tasty chocolate chips out?
Sorry, I just had to ask - maybe some of you folks can clarify it for me. I don't wish to remain ignorant.
"Most people that have no idea what they are doing have no idea that they don't know what they are doing." - John Cleese
@Ukase