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Stalker is designed to deal damage and the new Assassin Strike allows Stalker to deal amazing ST melee damage. It's not "too strong" at all considering other 3 melee ATs have more aoe in primary and secondary sets. Yes, some of Stalker combos have good aoe but majority of them are inferior. Tanker can survive 3x better than Stalker. Brute can fill both tanking and damage. And Scrapper's damage is not inferior to Stalker at all. |
Originally Posted by Reppu
Assassin's Strike is a little too strong now. It does, badly, need to get normalized ASAP. Other than that, the changes are good.
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"too strong" and Stalker don't belong in the same sentence. And also, it is still unclear that Stalker always out-damage Scrapper in ST damage department. I say it's close enough but some of Scrapper's combos can deal amazing ST and aoe damage that Stalker can't match.
I like the way Stalker is now. Even if Stalker is still mathematically inferior, I would still play Stalker. I enjoy the fast burst damage that an Assassin should have. The old AS was too slow and too much limitation.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Maybe she means in pvp or something? I'll admit that I wouldn't have left elec and SJ as they are for stalkers but then I always feel that the devs should err on the side of caution. It's a fair point to bring up super strength here: what melee set needs nerfs more? Obviously the difference is that SS has been around forever and heads would explode if a hand were lain on it, but as long as the stalker outliers aren't in the same league of overpoweredness, which surely they're not, they ought to be less of a concern.
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Why Elec and SJ melee should be changed for Stalker? Too strong? |
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I'll admit that I wouldn't have left elec and SJ as they are for stalkers but then I always feel that the devs should err on the side of caution.
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Scrapper and Brute have /shield and /fiery that allow them to deal even more damage. None of Stalker's secondary sets offer good damage.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Part of me says "Yes, those sets are too strong now," but then all of my "stalker instincts" were formed back when, in my opinion, stalkers were kind of terrible. So in a sense my feeling that those sets may be too good now is based on my old assumption that stalkers were intended to be bad. Since that's no longer true, I think they're probably fine.
Stalkers are now Single Target kings with decent, but not amazing survivability. There's room in this game for an AT with that niche... But it's certainly far from overpowering. Lack of AoE is a good balancing factor. And the Stalker sets with AoE pay for it by having relatively less ST damage potential.
Claws gots shafted in the latest changes due to it's low recharge times and the resulting negative effect on building assassin's focus. But in general Stalkers are where they should be, IMHO.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
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Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
But in general Stalkers are where they should be, IMHO.
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I think they are close. I also think the ATIO proc is what is making it appear a little more op than it actually is. The Brute and Stalker ATIO procs seem to give more benefit than any of the other AT procs. That is not to say that I think the ATIO procs needs to be nerfed, just that the others need to be brought in line with the benefit that Stalkers and Brutes get from theirs. From what I hear the MM proc is worthless.
As for survivability, Soft cap is soft cap, the other three melee ATs have more HPs to cover the hits that do make it through, but as of late I have seen a few well built stalkers with more HPs than some of the crappy scrapper builds that are running around.
I am having fun on stalkers now, and I see more and more of them in the game. This to me is a good thing. That being said, I have only played Stalkers with defensive sets, and will only. My concept of the AT is of one that is fast and agile, not tough.
I plan to make a Staff/EA scrapper, but I think I am also going to make a Staff/Nin stalker.
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Oh, I want Rage hit with the nerfbat. Simply put?|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
So what if they have the AoE's? They don't have the same damage modifiers.
And if some powersets do slightly better on stalkers overall, so be it. If SS/FA brutes have gone unnoticed for so long, so can Elec and StJ stalkers. |
Rage: No longer works with powers that are not Super Strength powers. Super Strength powers have a slight damage increase to balance this.
Fiery Aura is fine.
StJ is NOT fine on Stalkers. It's badly outperforming all other Stalker primaries. It DOES need to do a bit less critical damage in exchange for having 100% Damage Crits. It's that or 50% Damage Crits on Crushing Uppercut and then THAT would be a major nerf.
Take your pick.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Stalker is designed to deal damage and the new Assassin Strike allows Stalker to deal amazing ST melee damage. It's not "too strong" at all considering other 3 melee ATs have more aoe in primary and secondary sets. Yes, some of Stalker combos have good aoe but majority of them are inferior. Tanker can survive 3x better than Stalker. Brute can fill both tanking and damage. And Scrapper's damage is not inferior to Stalker at all.
"too strong" and Stalker don't belong in the same sentence. And also, it is still unclear that Stalker always out-damage Scrapper in ST damage department. I say it's close enough but some of Scrapper's combos can deal amazing ST and aoe damage that Stalker can't match. I like the way Stalker is now. Even if Stalker is still mathematically inferior, I would still play Stalker. I enjoy the fast burst damage that an Assassin should have. The old AS was too slow and too much limitation. |
Your second paragraph is just wrong.
Your third paragraph is ?_?.
To explain!
Your entire first paragraph is based off the performance of other archetypes, while trying to dodge the point I was making in the first place. Tanker Survivability is their niche. In exchange, their damage is lacking and some people feel Tankers have become a little useless since Brutes Do It Nearly As Good But With Vastly More Damage and Scrappers Can Do It Good Enough.
Scrapper ST Damage is inferior, flat out. You're badly underestimating New AS, but maybe you're not and just don't want your New OP nerfed. I'm afraid to say it that nerf is already confirmed, and I'm just trying to make it more known. AS IS getting normalized. That's a fact, accept it.
Your second paragraph? There is not a SINGLE case in primaries now that Scrappers win in ST damage, as even the almighty Titan Weapons can't quite match up to the best Stalker Primaries. This is also Working As Intended, but that doesn't mean AS doesn't need the normalization it's getting, and that doesn't mean Crushing Uppercut is TOO strong on Stalkers. Because it is. My suggested 'nerf' is only to fix the sheer disparity that Crushing Uppercut has as an outlier. I do not support wild outliers and would prefer somewhat more global balance.
IE; not widescale nerfs, but outliers do need to be pulled back a bit so EVERYTHING as a WHOLE can become better due to no fear of breaking an outlier as a result. Crushing Uppercut does too much damage for a 100% Crit Ability. If it's scaled back JUST a touch, we can make the 50% Criticals into 100% Criticals with similar damage.
And your third paragraph needs no commentary. It is what it is.
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For everyone who disagrees with Stalkers getting AS normalized, and the outlier that is Street Justice being slightly scaled back so the rest of the primaries can be improved with out fear?
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You say that as if it's true. You can go ahead and believe it, but that doesn't make it a fact.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Even if Stalker is still mathematically inferior, I would still play Stalker.
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AS should be normalized. Crushing Uppercut should be left alone, and the sets that don't get 100% crits on their tier 9s should get them (hello Total Focus).
I am new go stalkers, and my first is STJ/SR. I find them fun now, but only just barely strong enough to keep my interest. I am level 39. I feel if CU and/or AS were reduced any, it might not be worth playing. For me anyway. I just hope the devs, when 1 person is strong pro nerf and 10 more are mediocre "its fine" that the passion doesnt outweigh reason.
I should probably go play a "lesser" set or something, since to me STJ is adequate but not miraculous. To me.
Lewis
/stalker outsider
Random AT Generation!
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Frankly, I'm hoping the whole EM powerset will just be reworked. I had proposed an idea to give the powerset to 'modes' activated by it's higher-up attacks: Total Focus would activate a kind of 'Overpower' mode which would make your stuns higher mag or higher duration for a several seconds while Energy Transfer would activate a 'Disintegration' mode that caused your ST attacks to spread disintegration like Beam Rifle...but I have 0 playtime with Beam Rifle so not even sure how that works, but basically it'd add some AoE for free or improve your controls.
For AS, well I frankly feel they kind of went all over the place to boost Stalker but didn't fix the actual problems with the AT. I mean, why did they go and give AS a super crit *AND* give them an enhancement that rehides them? One of the underlying problems with the AT was getting good use of hide. Why not have just rolled that effect (the ATO proc) into a mechanic like current Assassin's Focus then make hidden AS faster and and uninterruptible? Then you basically get the 1-shot chance of 'hide' after building 3 focuses to put you back in hide and then choose what power to follow up with (probably AS since it'd be fast and crit for massive damage). No, you wouldn't be able to simply use AS whenever you wanted (since with no focus, it'd be slow and interruptible) but you'd also be making use of Demoralize whenever you build focus (and use AS with it...not to mention the focus stacks would have a use for other powers besides just AS).
Meh, the way they made Stalkers, it takes practically all emphasis from hide (leaving it a crippled effect), devalues placate and masks it behind a Scrapping mini-game. My point is they could have just turned a few things around, it not be such a ridiculous buff and be *FAR* more in the AT's style.
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I don't think anyone is against AS being normalized. Inf act, the devs have said that's going to happen. All AS animations are going to be 1 second. So the basic difference between them whenthey get normalized will be the damage types they do.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
For everyone who disagrees with Stalkers getting AS normalized, and the outlier that is Street Justice being slightly scaled back so the rest of the primaries can be improved with out fear?
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As for StJ needing scaled back. No. To put it flatly, you're wrong.
StJ doesn't outperform every other Stalker set to the point of needing any changes. It's a top set, no worries there, why, because one of the sets has to be at the top when you put them in a list.
This doesn't mean some sets don't need looked at. Claws for instance. Id put the cone back into Eviserate myself. The problem with Claws is the same problem it's always had...the set itself is built around a +DMG attack, that got removed for Build Up.
Stalkers get Build Up in the place of another ability in the set. That's Stalker playstyle. This will likely hurt some sets in some way.
But for a set it hurts, a set like Staff Fighting comes along and it makes it work! It gets stuck with one stance, but gets the added +DMG of build up, which is likely to make it stronger on Stalkers in terms of damage from just the primary than either Brutes/Scrappers.
But what you seem to be forgetting is it's not just sets like Shield and Fire Armor that help bridge the gaps towards Stalkers now for Brutes/Scrappers. It's any set with a Damage Aura period.
Damage Aura will add to your DPS (roughly about 15-20 if memory serves, but it could be more).
Personally tho, I am hoping that when Stalkers get Fire Armor, they get a Damage Aura that suppresses when hidden and access to Fiery Embrace. They can lose Consume
No nerfs need to happen to any set, other than (and I don't care to call it a nerf myself, since they said from the start they plan to put them all at the same cast time) putting AS animations under one second at 1 second.
But then, that's a buff to those stuck at the 1.67 second time.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Not everyone uses the ATOs and IOs.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Frankly, I'm hoping the whole EM powerset will just be reworked. I had proposed an idea to give the powerset to 'modes' activated by it's higher-up attacks: Total Focus would activate a kind of 'Overpower' mode which would make your stuns higher mag or higher duration for a several seconds while Energy Transfer would activate a 'Disintegration' mode that caused your ST attacks to spread disintegration like Beam Rifle...but I have 0 playtime with Beam Rifle so not even sure how that works, but basically it'd add some AoE for free or improve your controls.
For AS, well I frankly feel they kind of went all over the place to boost Stalker but didn't fix the actual problems with the AT. I mean, why did they go and give AS a super crit *AND* give them an enhancement that rehides them? One of the underlying problems with the AT was getting good use of hide. Why not have just rolled that effect (the ATO proc) into a mechanic like current Assassin's Focus then make hidden AS faster and and uninterruptible? Then you basically get the 1-shot chance of 'hide' after building 3 focuses to put you back in hide and then choose what power to follow up with (probably AS since it'd be fast and crit for massive damage). No, you wouldn't be able to simply use AS whenever you wanted (since with no focus, it'd be slow and interruptible) but you'd also be making use of Demoralize whenever you build focus (and use AS with it...not to mention the focus stacks would have a use for other powers besides just AS). Meh, the way they made Stalkers, it takes practically all emphasis from hide (leaving it a crippled effect), devalues placate and masks it behind a Scrapping mini-game. My point is they could have used just turned a few things around, it not be such a ridiculous buff and be *FAR* more in the AT's style. |
So the idea that you can do that, is player choice, as they have to go out and obtain the Hide Proc.
Without the Hide proc in the build, they cant do what is suggested AS into hidden status and release big attack for crit!
All sets got an ATO set. Stalkers allowed them to rehide. I'm not sure I'd count the ATO as a buff to the ATO and rather more of just being an awesome set for Stalkers.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Lol did you read what I said? The 'hide proc' would be a base effect of Assassin's Focus. Period.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Not everyone uses the ATOs and IOs.
So the idea that you can do that, is player choice, as they have to go out and obtain the Hide Proc. Without the Hide proc in the build, they cant do what is suggested AS into hidden status and release big attack for crit! All sets got an ATO set. Stalkers allowed them to rehide. I'm not sure I'd count the ATO as a buff to the ATO and rather more of just being an awesome set for Stalkers. |
Basically, building up 3 Assassin's Focus shifts you into hide at the end of the animation then you use an attack. An ATO proc wouldn't be necessary (or even exist) and you could outright skip Assassin's Strike (which you can do right now) and still get *something* from Assassin's Focus (which you cannot do right now).
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Let me stop you there. StJ is one of the few Stalker Primaries with a slower-than-average AS. It means it WILL get a (small) damage boost from the normalization.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I don't think anyone is against AS being normalized. Inf act, the devs have said that's going to happen. All AS animations are going to be 1 second. So the basic difference between them whenthey get normalized will be the damage types they do.
As for StJ needing scaled back. No. To put it flatly, you're wrong. |
Thus being, the outlier Stalker STDPS Primary is getting a buff. This is why I feel it could use a slight scale back. This is also ignoring the fact it is the only Stalker Primary with a Raw Damage/Damage Scale power like Crushing Uppercut supporting 100% Critical Damage.
I strongly support all attacks doing 100% Critical Damage, but Crushing Uppercut as it is, for what it is, is slightly too strong. If you transfer some of it's raw damage into combo damage, you only nerf it's extreme critical levels, but not it's average damage.
People not wanting this to happen are well aware of how ludicrously powerful it is on a critical hit. This, I do have to scoff at. It's 'protecting the precious thing' mentality. And if Stalkers couldn't force critical hits for Crushing Uppercut, this may not be needed. But they can.
And before someone says "That's just for IO's", all it takes is one extremely easy to get IO. Or Placate, I suppose. And it wouldn't be a nerf to SO builds anyway because they can't abuse CU as badly and they wouldn't notice an overall damage loss.
So, tell me how this is unreasonable; Some of Crushing Uppercut's Base Damage is transfered to Combo Point damage as an artificial way to reduce it's ludicrous critical damage.
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I have Placate still. It's nice for things like the fight where you have to beat on the Sentinel, then stop beating on him and beat on the runes. Placate makes him ignore you, and half the time he never regains interest in you at all until you've finished with the runes. It's also nice for the mission where the Tsoo elite boss is protected by four Ancestor Spirits, and you have to defeat the spirits first, one of which inevitably goes and hides by the ceiling.|
Originally Posted by Lobster
Also - is anyone still using placate? I haven't used it once since i22. I mean, I *could* use it for the crit but I just don't feel the need. It's no good for a set mule so I'm debating dropping it... I was thinking it might still have some use as an OSH#$ power or vs EBs/AVs or something. Eh, I'll probably hang on to it with the initial slot, maybe respec and grab it at 49.
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If I needed the power slot for something else Placate would probably be the first power to go, however.
One of the problems I noticed when CoV was reelased was that their original AT mechanics all required them to be played in a certain way, at a certain tempo. Brutes always had to go-go-go to keep Fury up. Stalkers had to pause a lot to wait for Hide to come back, then sneak up and get to the mobs early so they could initiate assassinate to avoid AoEs from interrupting them. Dominators sometimes had to slow down or make detours through additional mobs to make sure that Domination was available for boss encounters. MMs always caused major slowdowns at the start of missions or after their pets bought it, and the pets often interfere with the reliable operation of other ATs by constantly getting in the way and sometimes making it hard for melee characters to do their jobs properly. Only corruptors had a straightforward mechanic that didn't demand they play a certain way, or make them the source of repeated delays or detours.
A lot of these problems have now been fixed for other ATs, but the change to stalkers is probably the biggest, because you just don't need to mess with assassinate if you don't want to. You can charge right in with the brute or tank, or you can lead, or you can follow, all depending on your team makeup or the nature of the mobs you're dealing with, and you can still be effective.
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Problem with that mentality: it's the top of the list for a variety of reasons.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
StJ doesn't outperform every other Stalker set to the point of needing any changes. It's a top set, no worries there, why, because one of the sets has to be at the top when you put them in a list. |
Single Target: It's Street Justice.
DPS: StJ again
Burst: StJ once again
AoE: well it's not last
Control: again, not last
So the next question is, where does StJ sit on the categories it doesn't sit at the top of? On AoE, MA and EM are dead last and probably only get near StJ for ST and DPS and may be equal for burst.
For control? I'd probably put Broadsword/Katana and Claws[EDIT] last, none of which touch StJ on any of those categories.
So why not buff those weaker sets? Because some of those weaker sets are fine. They're middle-of-the-road which isn't bad. Outliers should be adjusted to resemble those, not the other way around. Either you lower outlier's capabilities your limit those capabilities behind disadvantages and weaknesses. Can you point to a weakness of StJ?
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For having literally no AoE, MA isn't really ahead of StJ anymore, if at all. EM is not remotely close to either, if memory serves. It wasn't in last place, but it's definitely at Dead Average in ST Damage now. I do believe the recent Stalker changes DID put StJ above MA if only because of forcing CU to crit now. And the synergy the unique AS that StJ has in combination with CU.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Problem with that mentality: it's the top of the list for a variety of reasons.
Single Target: It's Street Justice. DPS: StJ again Burst: StJ once again AoE: well it's not last Control: again, not last So the next question is, where does StJ sit on the categories it doesn't sit at the top of? On AoE, MA and EM are dead last and probably only get near StJ for ST and DPS and may be equal for burst. For control? I'd probably put Broadsword/Katana and Claws, none of which touch StJ on any of those categories. So why not buff those weaker sets? Because some of those weaker sets are fine. They're middle-of-the-road which isn't bad. Outliers should be adjusted to resemble those, not the other way around. Either you lower outlier's capabilities your limit those capabilities behind disadvantages and weaknesses. Can you point to a weakness of StJ? |
StJ got the biggest buffs from this due to how the set operated. Although Electric Melee is certainly a power house too, it's held back by 50% Criticals all over the place. (IIRC).
The only 50% attacks in elec are jacob's ladder and thunder strike. I am of the opinion that a high end elec build should not contain thunder strike, and jacob's ladder is more of a single target attack (which I guess would be a reason for it not to have a 50% crit out of hide, but that's where we're at for stalker cones). I'd say elec did just fine in issue 22.
Some of the best DPS times in pylon test thread are being done by DB, not by StJ. Ninja Blade too is a high-end dps competitor. Check out last few pages of pylon thread in Scrapper forum.
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I have. And StJ is beating them by a large enough margin. The most recent Stalker DB build I saw was 320-340 DPS. STJ was hitting 350 on it's LOW END, and 420 on it's High End (theoretical). That's a fairly large disparity, and it's all entirely due to Crushing Uppercut.|
Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Some of the best DPS times in pylon test thread are being done by DB, not by StJ. Ninja Blade too is a high-end dps competitor. Check out last few pages of pylon thread in Scrapper forum.
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Keep in mind that Dual Blades has two of the better attacks in the game with Ablating Strike and Sweeping Strike. It SHOULD be performing well.
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Theoretically produce unreasonable DPS every day.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
STJ was hitting 350 on it's LOW END, and 420 on it's High End (theoretical).
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My apologies. I forgot Auroxis is known for making err- wait. You know better than to say someone else is wrong just because they didn't post a video on it. If Auroxis says his StJ build is 450 Theoretical if he doesn't miss Crushing Uppercuts, and is at least 400 DPS in a worse-case scenario, you can't deny that unless you can prove otherwise because pylons are simple math tests. And yes, that's 450 DPS In a perfect scenario where Crushing Uppercut and Assassin's Strike aren't being picky. Which is why its 420 with margin for error, and 400 if everything keeps going wrong, last I checked.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Theoretically produce unreasonable DPS every day.
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Ask Auroxis yourself.
Your response?
Let me ask, before the changes to Assassin Strike and the intro of the Hide Proc, did anyone think CU's ability to do so much damage on a crit was bad, when it hit combo level 2 or 3?
Now admittedly, I have a StJ Stalker at 50, but seeing as how I don't play it, to the point that's it's transfered to another server, it's not like I'm trying to say "No! Don't mess with my OPed, IOed build"
I see it more like this.
Here's the set. Street Justice.
Here's the sets abilities.
On three of the melee ATs this doesn't make it an all that set, but on this one AT with how it plays, it does become all that.
To me that last part isn't bad at all.
As for the other sets. I never did agree with the idea of just because it's a tier 9 it shouldn't crit for 100% damage. That's a fix that should be made to any ST Tier 9 attack, for Stalkers AND Scrappers.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
This doesn't 'balance out', and Assassin's Strike WILL be normalized. That's a fact. I'm simply saying it's far too powerful right now until they're all normalized. It won't change much, but it will be a nerf to Kinetic Melee. Which.. doesn't honestly need it.
StJ does need a flat nerf on Stalkers. Best way to do that? Lower the base damage of Crushing Uppercut, Spinning Strike, and Sweeping Cross, put that damage into the Combo Damage metric. AKA; they crit for less, but still do the same non-critical damage.
Easy enough fix.
And if some powersets do slightly better on stalkers overall, so be it. If SS/FA brutes have gone unnoticed for so long, so can Elec and StJ stalkers.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
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