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I did - because it was so far an outlier when compared with other powers. Stalker Eagle Claw (scale 2.92, total 5.84) was the next highest attack with a full critical, then Midnight Grasp (2.76, total 5.52); the fact that CU (base and critical value 3.18, total combo 3 value of 7.155) is allowed to hit harder than a hidden Assassin's Strike (scale 7.0) seemed a bit over the top to me. Especially given Total Focus and its incredibly small critical value in a set without any AoE damage at all. Even if Total Focus had a 100% critical it would still hit for less than a combo level 3 Crushing Uppercut (base of 3.56, full critical of 7.12). Plus CU animates faster than TF, costs less endurance, and has the same magnitude of a "better" mez (hold vs stun), with a secondary soft control and longer range being paid for with the longer base recharge.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Let me ask, before the changes to Assassin Strike and the intro of the Hide Proc, did anyone think CU's ability to do so much damage on a crit was bad, when it hit combo level 2 or 3?
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For what it's worth I have a single Street Justice Stalker (StJ/Nin), but she's only level 29 so doesn't have CU. She'll get an ATO proc (because that's what's really causing most of the post-i22 "zomgStalkers" issues with the huge DPS numbers) eventually, but really I think that the devs were only okay with the performance - specifically of Crushing Uppercut - since it's basically a "pay-to-win" set. Because you have to spend points to get it, not everyone is going to flock to it... and the history of what gets placed on the market thus far (things like attuned IOs, but also including Titan Weapons) seems to indicate that they have no problem with giving higher performance to people willing to give them more money.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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To add to Siolfir's post: Back before those adds, builds that omit Assassin's Strike were talked about for lots of sets but StJ stood out by having an attack that could eclipse AS outright by hitting as hard and animating faster.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Let me ask, before the changes to Assassin Strike and the intro of the Hide Proc, did anyone think CU's ability to do so much damage on a crit was bad, when it hit combo level 2 or 3?
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So was CU's crit considered bad? Maybe not if one was considering a build without AS. With both, you'd have to pick one; a.) use hidden AS then placate+CU or b.) use hidden CU and not use AS.
I'd still consider it a give and take but no matter how you slice it, CU was strong but built with a mechanic that rewarded you for using it after AS, not from a cold start.
Now? It's just absurd because the direction of Stalkers was completely altered. It'd be like giving Brutes a hard time building fury but later gave them a 100% fury builder they can use at the start of every battle, changing them from a slow starter to a burst AT while retaining all their advantages (lol ATO proc).
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Ahhh.|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Heh I was just making a stupid joke that I can't even explain given the rules of this forum. Nothing more.
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Grow up.
I don't play Brute/Scrapper. How is SJ performing for them? Is SJ over-shadowing MA and other sets?
I am asking this because while I think SJ is a great set for Stalker (burst damage nature always favors Stalker's style), SJ has limited aoe ability (pretty small pbaoe) and it has two not so high damage (and Stalker doesn't get -resistance and -damage in Rib Cracker).
To some degree, SJ only looks so good because MA has no aoe. I've played both MA and SJ to level 50 and in incarnate trials. I don't feel MA's ST damage is that inferior to SJ. SJ has one tiny problem, which is overkill on the last hit. It's not uncommon that the final hit is way overkill. MA has more "smooth dps" because each attack hits similarly hard. The only problem I have with MA is the lack of the only aoe.
Other sets like Claw and Ninja, they are some of the top performing dps sets for Scrapper but the Stalker version is inferior.
SJ Stalker didn't lose any of the aoe but with the new AS change, it gains an amazing ST attack.
I was leveling my old Elec/Will Stalker from 37 to 50 and I feel his performance is just as good as my SJ/Ice and in some cases better because of a much better aoe potential.
I think the root of the problem is that some of the old sets just need some improvements. There is no secret that Spine, Elec and SJ are performing so well because they weren't that "nerfed" to begin with. Some old sets lose one critical pbaoe and get nothing in return. (read my signature!)
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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But to obtain that higher damage, didn't you have to build up the 3 combo points before using CU?|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
I did - because it was so far an outlier when compared with other powers. Stalker Eagle Claw (scale 2.92, total 5.84) was the next highest attack with a full critical, then Midnight Grasp (2.76, total 5.52); the fact that CU (base and critical value 3.18, total combo 3 value of 7.155) is allowed to hit harder than a hidden Assassin's Strike (scale 7.0) seemed a bit over the top to me. Especially given Total Focus and its incredibly small critical value in a set without any AoE damage at all. Even if Total Focus had a 100% critical it would still hit for less than a combo level 3 Crushing Uppercut (base of 3.56, full critical of 7.12). Plus CU animates faster than TF, costs less endurance, and has the same magnitude of a "better" mez (hold vs stun), with a secondary soft control and longer range being paid for with the longer base recharge.
For what it's worth I have a single Street Justice Stalker (StJ/Nin), but she's only level 29 so doesn't have CU. She'll get an ATO proc (because that's what's really causing most of the post-i22 "zomgStalkers" issues with the huge DPS numbers) eventually, but really I think that the devs were only okay with the performance - specifically of Crushing Uppercut - since it's basically a "pay-to-win" set. Because you have to spend points to get it, not everyone is going to flock to it... and the history of what gets placed on the market thus far (things like attuned IOs, but also including Titan Weapons) seems to indicate that they have no problem with giving higher performance to people willing to give them more money. |
Using CU at 0 Combo points, is less damage isn't it? I don't recall, so serious question. When I played my StJ Stalker, I always tried to build for 3 combo points before using it.
to me the complaints now seemed to be based solely on the ATO Proc which helps StJ out alot, with AS giving 2 Combo Points (which i dont think should be removed) then with the Proc putting one in a good spot to get a crit on CU.
also likely is that StJ wasn't probably made with the new Stalker changes in mind. If they had these changes in mind when StJ was created, they might not have given AS +2 Combo points.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I don't agree with this. I've heard Dominator's proc is amazing once you have high recharge and Tanker's proc gives them a lot more survival. |
Originally Posted by Zyphoid
I think they are close. I also think the ATIO proc is what is making it appear a little more op than it actually is. The Brute and Stalker ATIO procs seem to give more benefit than any of the other AT procs. That is not to say that I think the ATIO procs needs to be nerfed, just that the others need to be brought in line with the benefit that Stalkers and Brutes get from theirs. From what I hear the MM proc is worthless.
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I've tried Blaster's proc and I kinda like it. Yes, it's not a fancy kind of proc but it's a sure hit. When I land a hit, the fire damage proc happens.
Stalker's proc has two problems. One, you need two hit checks (AS needs to land and then your next hit needs to land) and two it's hard to control what your next hit is especially with high recharge because you can use AS under 10s. Oh and three, Stalker's proc is limited to only triggered once in 10s (in reality it's a bit longer than 10s). Other damage procs (controller, blaster, corr) can happen more often with good recharge and I believe Dominator's and Tanker's can stack up to 3-5 times?
Mastermind's proc is not worthless at all. The full set and the bonuses are bad. The 10% or 15% aoe defense is very good.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I live in a City of Heroes where 10% Global Recharge is bad.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I don't agree with this. I've heard Dominator's proc is amazing once you have high recharge and Tanker's proc gives them a lot more survival.
I've tried Blaster's proc and I kinda like it. Yes, it's not a fancy kind of proc but it's a sure hit. When I land a hit, the fire damage proc happens. Stalker's proc has two problems. One, you need two hit checks (AS needs to land and then your next hit needs to land) and two it's hard to control what your next hit is especially with high recharge because you can use AS under 10s. Oh and three, Stalker's proc is limited to only triggered once in 10s (in reality it's a bit longer than 10s). Other damage procs (controller, blaster, corr) can happen more often with good recharge and I believe Dominator's and Tanker's can stack up to 3-5 times? Mastermind's proc is not worthless at all. The full set and the bonuses are bad. The 10% or 15% aoe defense is very good. |
Going to go cry myself to sleep.
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Not if you want your pets to have damage procs and a mix of other uniques. Not every primary set can take both Pet and Pet recharge sets. I know I won't do that on my Merc and Ninjas. Commando is better with knock back proc and Soldiers and Spec-Ops are better off with AH proc and Negative proc. Ninja's Jounins are better with AH and Negative and what's left for Genin and Oni is that each of them need to take one unique and then plus MM ATO's unique. |
Originally Posted by Reppu
I live in a City of Heroes where 10% Global Recharge is bad.
Going to go cry myself to sleep. |
And yeah, I don't think 10% recharge on a Mastermind is as useful as damage procs and four unique in pets.
You can disagree with me but don't put up that attitude. You want to cry and sleep. Go ahead. I have legit reasons behind my posts.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I think the poster meant in general. 1 good bonus out of 5 doesnt make for good bonuses. |
Originally Posted by Reppu
I live in a City of Heroes where 10% Global Recharge is bad.
Going to go cry myself to sleep. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Woah now. Someone got horribly angry. I wasn't even going to debate it and was just remarking on the fact you (all?) seem to think that..|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Not if you want your pets to have damage procs and a mix of other uniques. Not every primary set can take both Pet and Pet recharge sets. I know I won't do that on my Merc and Ninjas. Commando is better with knock back proc and Soldiers and Spec-Ops are better off with AH proc and Negative proc. Ninja's Jounins are better with AH and Negative and what's left for Genin and Oni is that each of them need to take one unique and then plus MM ATO's unique.
And yeah, I don't think 10% recharge on a Mastermind is as useful as damage procs and four unique in pets. You can disagree with me but don't put up that attitude. You want to cry and sleep. Go ahead. I have legit reasons behind my posts. |
2) 4% Damage for the MM - Admittedly not very good
3) 3% HP - This is WOAH.
4) 10% Global Recharge - Godlike
5 and 6) Nobody Cares you 4 set'd the best bonus. Although 2.52% Smashing/Lethal/Toxic/Psionic is not remotely bad.
But we all value things differently. Although you can easily slot 4 of those and still manage a proc if you intelligently slot, my response to your over aggressiveness and flat-out rude behavior?
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I think the poster meant in general. 1 good bonus out of 5 doesnt make for good bonuses.
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Not at the expense of making your pets stronger. Pets are better off with a mix of damage procs and pet unique. Certain primary/secondary sets have the luxury of taking Pet Recharge sets. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
I think the poster meant in general. 1 good bonus out of 5 doesnt make for good bonuses.
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I am a Mastermind and my focus is on making my pets better. Sure, I'll take 10% recharge on my own but only if I can keep all those procs. I just don't think the bonus is that good and that 2% damage bonus is beyond bad for MM, who has the lowest damage modifier in the game. Even with 4% damage boost, it's still meaningless.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
But we all value things differently. Although you can easily slot 4 of those and still manage a proc if you intelligently slot, my response to your over aggressiveness and flat-out rude behavior?
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You need to scroll up and read what you wrote. I am only being rude to people who deserve it.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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... I made a joke, you took it out of context and went totally rude. Don't justify yourself, because you're in the wrong.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
You need to scroll up and read what you wrote. I am only being rude to people who deserve it.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
The full set and the bonuses are bad.
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10% Recharge is suddenly bad.
2.52% in the two most common damage types plus the two most lethally exotic is bad. Admittedly not GREAT but BAD?
I wasn't questioning you in the end. I was making a joke because the 10% Recharge is generally considered to be worth 2 Billion in total IO's to slot in, in many of the most extremely 'overpowered' builds. And we're suddenly in a place where that bonus is considered 'bad'. Thus, I made an obviously joking statement.
Again, you're in the wrong. You got rude, you got angry, you got aggressive. You wanted to start a fight, you aren't getting one.
And that's the end of that exchange.
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You are either not reading or trying to be cute. Well, it's not working. Again, scroll up and read what you wrote. I am only rude to people who are rude. This conversation ends. It's off topic on a Stalker forum.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Again, you're in the wrong. You got rude, you got angry, you got aggressive. You wanted to start a fight, you aren't getting one. |
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Okay.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
You are either not reading or trying to be cute. Well, it's not working. Again, scroll up and read what you wrote. I am only rude to people who are rude. This conversation ends. It's off topic on a Stalker forum.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
I live in a City of Heroes where 10% Global Recharge is bad.
Going to go cry myself to sleep. |
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Pff, make me.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
Ahhh.
Grow up. |
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This would be true, if Beam Rifle and Beast Mastery didn't exist.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
...since it's basically a "pay-to-win" set. Because you have to spend points to get it, not everyone is going to flock to it... and the history of what gets placed on the market thus far (things like attuned IOs, but also including Titan Weapons) seems to indicate that they have no problem with giving higher performance to people willing to give them more money.
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I would like to issue a plea on behalf of Paragon's diminutive protectors, please watch where you step. We're four feet tall in a six foot tall world, we've been cast adrift in a sea of butts. -Pillbug
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To reinforce this, Ricodah posted a video of his 350 DPS StJ pylon run. His CU didn't crit half of the time(due to ATO proc misshap), he didn't have Water Spout, and he didn't post his build so we don't know if he's missing out on some damage bonuses or procs.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
My apologies. I forgot Auroxis is known for making err- wait. You know better than to say someone else is wrong just because they didn't post a video on it. If Auroxis says his StJ build is 450 Theoretical if he doesn't miss Crushing Uppercuts, and is at least 400 DPS in a worse-case scenario, you can't deny that unless you can prove otherwise because pylons are simple math tests. And yes, that's 450 DPS In a perfect scenario where Crushing Uppercut and Assassin's Strike aren't being picky. Which is why its 420 with margin for error, and 400 if everything keeps going wrong, last I checked.
Ask Auroxis yourself. Your response? |
And I STILL think StJ is fine. I played StJ(up to mid-40's) on a stalker. I know what it's capable of. And its AoE simply isn't good enough to make the powerset that much better than others.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
<--Winning.
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Better than Martial Arts AoE with more ST DPS. Balance?
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
To reinforce this, Ricodah posted a video of his 350 DPS StJ pylon run. His CU didn't crit half of the time(due to ATO proc misshap), he didn't have Water Spout, and he didn't post his build so we don't know if he's missing out on some damage bonuses or procs.
And I STILL think StJ is fine. I played StJ(up to mid-40's) on a stalker. I know what it's capable of. And its AoE simply isn't good enough to make the powerset that much better than others. |
Sounds like it's about time they buffed MA.
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^This
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Sounds like it's about time they buffed MA.
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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I think your little hedgehog balls are showing.
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Originally Posted by Reppu
But we all value things differently. Although you can easily slot 4 of those and still manage a proc if you intelligently slot, my response to your over aggressiveness and flat-out rude behavior? |
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The only concrete StJ build I saw with a believable pylon time was Ricodah's. And one time I think was using some SBE procs on test?|
Originally Posted by Reppu
I have. And StJ is beating them by a large enough margin. The most recent Stalker DB build I saw was 320-340 DPS. STJ was hitting 350 on it's LOW END, and 420 on it's High End (theoretical). That's a fairly large disparity, and it's all entirely due to Crushing Uppercut.
Keep in mind that Dual Blades has two of the better attacks in the game with Ablating Strike and Sweeping Strike. It SHOULD be performing well. |
My build didn't do nearly as well -- and that's purpled out and running ageless. (you could say my build is weak then, but it's pretty much a tuned up StJ/Ice build ... )
The DB time posted kicked my time's butt. Also there were some talk of Ninja Blade times being even better once ppl got around to building for new i22 dps chains.
I think you will find it is not as cut and dried as you are implying. Plus even the top StJ times are still behind other AT times like Brute SS/Fire/Soul or even my TW/SR brute's time.
Let's get off the nerf StJ (nerf CU) herding and on to fixing issues in the other stalker sets.
Ask Auroxis yourself.
Your response?