Store Bought Enhancements proc better? It must be a bug right? I can't imagine why SBE should perform better.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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/Ice is really good. I love it so much more than /Nin.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Oh damn! I forgot about that! I need to find out when I can squeeze in some time to play my DB/Nin...wait, I deleted that...
So that means I get to start over? DB/Ice? I haven't tried /Ice. *concept concept gotta think of a concept* |
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Reppu is correct to say PPM instead of SBE if we're talking about the proc imbalance problem. ATOs have the same issue. Performance shifter PPMs were actually "nerfed" in today's patch, though they still perform better than regular PS procs. I'm not the forum's foremost expert on the subject but basically if you put a PPM of 4 or better into a power like AS, it will proc 100% of the time because the base recharge is 15 seconds, regardless of how low you've gotten its actual recharge. Some of us have a problem with that, oddly enough. How PPMs work in damaging aoes is somewhat hazy, but when I saw that putting the will of the controller proc into shadow field made it proc with something like a 95% rate on every possible check my eyebrow wasn't raised, it was ejected at escape velocity.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Store Bought Enhancements proc better? It must be a bug right? I can't imagine why SBE should perform better.
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Ok, I am a bit confused. What is the term PPM? SBE is Store Bought Enhancements. PPM is?|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Reppu is correct to say PPM instead of SBE if we're talking about the proc imbalance problem. ATOs have the same issue. Performance shifter PPMs were actually "nerfed" in today's patch, though they still perform better than regular PS procs. I'm not the forum's foremost expert on the subject but basically if you put a PPM of 4 or better into a power like AS, it will proc 100% of the time because the base recharge is 15 seconds, regardless of how low you've gotten its actual recharge. Some of us have a problem with that, oddly enough. How PPMs work in damaging aoes is somewhat hazy, but when I saw that putting the will of the controller proc into shadow field made it proc with something like a 95% rate on every possible check my eyebrow wasn't raised, it was ejected at escape velocity.
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I am glad they are adjusting SBE enhancements. There is no reason why cash sets should perform better. That's bad for business. Cash enhancements are good if you are low on playing time and don't want to grind for them.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Procs Per Minute I think. So if an enc has a 4 PPM rate, anything with a recharge 15s or greater (60/4) will auto proc.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Ok, I am a bit confused. What is the term PPM? SBE is Store Bought Enhancements. PPM is?
I am glad they are adjusting SBE enhancements. There is no reason why cash sets should perform better. That's bad for business. Cash enhancements are good if you are low on playing time and don't want to grind for them. |
Also, the controller proc doesn't doesn't even need to be slotted in shadow field - I found the fear a much better place for it
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Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
It would be awfully nice in fearsome stare, but I had to six slot that with cloud senses. Court order. The nice part about putting it into shadow field is that it takes full advantage of the great recharge that the set has six slotted and plus in a long fight you get six almost guaranteed procs on anything that lives for the entire duration for just the one cast time. That's right, six: the zero second proc fires twice because there's an initial hold component in addition to the recurring one.
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Heh. Compelling argument! I may try that slotting if I do another dark/ controller. 6 procs per target? That's better than I was expecting and I wonder if PPMs will take a nerf when used in things that function like this (anyone tried it in /time's hold field???).|
Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
It would be awfully nice in fearsome stare, but I had to six slot that with cloud senses. Court order. The nice part about putting it into shadow field is that it takes full advantage of the great recharge that the set has six slotted and plus in a long fight you get six almost guaranteed procs on anything that lives for the entire duration for just the one cast time. That's right, six: the zero second proc fires twice because there's an initial hold component in addition to the recurring one.
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I kind of like Fearsome being an actual attack - it's kind of like a subtle reminder to use it (I tend to not actually need to use FS or SF on my dark/dark unless I remind myself, as they just aren't needed for the +1/2 that I'm running the DA arcs at).
Tangent apology & re-focus:
Can't wait to fire up a new staff/ice stalker next week! I'm hoping it will be "the one" stalker for me that I play through to 50 and *keep* playing. My elec/nin I abandoned at 50. I have a really hard time liking elec/ beyond the telenuke.
Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
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Wow... Shadow Field proc that often? It must be nice to have negative damage from Cloud Sense.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
It would be awfully nice in fearsome stare, but I had to six slot that with cloud senses. Court order. The nice part about putting it into shadow field is that it takes full advantage of the great recharge that the set has six slotted and plus in a long fight you get six almost guaranteed procs on anything that lives for the entire duration for just the one cast time. That's right, six: the zero second proc fires twice because there's an initial hold component in addition to the recurring one.
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What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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If you put proc damage in Fearsome stare, don't you get hit when the proc happens initially?
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Originally Posted by Lobster
Heh. Compelling argument! I may try that slotting if I do another dark/ controller. 6 procs per target? That's better than I was expecting and I wonder if PPMs will take a nerf when used in things that function like this (anyone tried it in /time's hold field???).
I kind of like Fearsome being an actual attack - it's kind of like a subtle reminder to use it (I tend to not actually need to use FS or SF on my dark/dark unless I remind myself, as they just aren't needed for the +1/2 that I'm running the DA arcs at). |
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Yep. But it hasn't actually affected me negatively much. Dark/dark/soul is pretty strong.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
If you put proc damage in Fearsome stare, don't you get hit when the proc happens initially?
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Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
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Lol you guys are hilarious. Can't keep up with the acronyms and such? But what I'm laughing at is, do you guys actually say what the acronym stands for when you write or read them? Cause if you do, the above sentence reads:|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Ok, I am a bit confused. What is the term PPM? SBE is Store Bought Enhancements. PPM is?
I am glad they are adjusting SBE enhancements. |
"I am glad they are adjusting the Store Bought Enhancement enhancements."
Which doesn't make sense <_< I know when I read this stuff I don't actually read the letters but more or less say what it means in my head. Just curious.
And I don't have a problem with the SBE myself. The only ones I bother with and only if I actually want the effect, are procs. It's not so much pay-to-win as it is, regular procs aren't very good while the PPM ones are quite nice.
I don't think you can enhancement-boost attuned sets anyway so that's a strike against them.
Didn't they nerf Performance Shifter Procs from 3.0 to 1.5? Pretty sure that was in the patch notes.
Wow. To continue the derail, I just tested WotC's proc in distortion field using a couple unslotters. It isn't a 100% proc rate but I'd guess it's maybe 80%? That's in an autohit power that procs five times per cast and is enormously spammable. I'd like to see this nerfed, frankly.
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<<Reduced the procs per minute on the Store version of Performance Shifter: Chance for +End from 3 to 1.5 to be consistent with the Invention Origin version.>>|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Didn't they nerf Performance Shifter Procs from 3.0 to 1.5? Pretty sure that was in the patch notes.
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Yep.
Well it was a good 4+ weeks while it lasted ....
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I no longer proc FS on my Corrs and Defenders, but I do always attack immediately after terrorizing stuff, often including lots of DoT or rains, so things always attack back. There's a mondo toHit debuff on FS (and I always slot it for more -toHit than fear duration), and if you have a self-heal (particularly Twilight Grasp), you can recover from most anything that does land. I have long played Dark Miasma Defenders and Corruptors as damage sponges - they take lots of hits and heal it back. (Way more hits miss than land, I just make a habit of fighting rather insane quantities of foes.) My Dark/Time Controller is a lowbie still, but I fully expect to play it the same way in general.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
If you put proc damage in Fearsome stare, don't you get hit when the proc happens initially?
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
It's not a bug. The issue is that they don't work the same way. You can't compare them directly. PPM stands for "Procs Per Minute", and by design, they proc more often in powers that have longer cycle times. (Cycle time is cast time + base recharge time). The idea is to keep the average number of times they proc per unit time fixed instead of the average number of times they proc per power activation.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
Store Bought Enhancements proc better? It must be a bug right? I can't imagine why SBE should perform better.
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All SBEs that are procs use the PPM system.
There are two things involved that make this better than a standard proc.
One is that it's better by design in longer cycle powers. If it procs 20% of the time in something with a 4s cycle time, it will proc 40% of the time in something with an 8s cycle time.
The second thing is that you can improve recharge time with slotting and global recharge. So if you have something with an 8s cycle time that you can get down to 4s, then it's twice as good to put a SBE/PPM proc there rather than a regular proc.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
It's not a bug. The issue is that they don't work the same way. You can't compare them directly. PPM stands for "Procs Per Minute", and by design, they proc more often in powers that have longer cycle times. (Cycle time is cast time + base recharge time). The idea is to keep the average number of times they proc per unit time fixed instead of the average number of times they proc per power activation.
All SBEs that are procs use the PPM system. There are two things involved that make this better than a standard proc. One is that it's better by design in longer cycle powers. If it procs 20% of the time in something with a 4s cycle time, it will proc 40% of the time in something with an 8s cycle time. The second thing is that you can improve recharge time with slotting and global recharge. So if you have something with an 8s cycle time that you can get down to 4s, then it's twice as good to put a SBE/PPM proc there rather than a regular proc. |
Oh?! I thought it's just ATO procs that are based on "per minute" system, which I do think is better than the old 20% flat chance because that makes slotting very boring as you always want to put in an attack that recharges faster.
So cash Mako set's Lethal damage proc is based on "per minute" as well? Oh my, I have not followed any of the cash sets. I have no idea they are changing it to "per minute" system. So the basic proc happen like 4x/minute right?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
Standard ATO procs are 4 PPM, and Superior ones are 5 PPM. Most of PPM versions of "20% chance" procs I looked at, such as Mako's Bite, are 3 PPM as SBEs. ToD SBE's are 2.5 PPM. The proposed SBE Hecatomb proc comes in at 4.5 PPM, potentially subject to change.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
So cash Mako set's Lethal damage proc is based on "per minute" as well? Oh my, I have not followed any of the cash sets. I have no idea they are changing it to "per minute" system. So the basic proc happen like 4x/minute right?
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Some of the procs, such as Performance Shifter, apparently did not work out as expected when put passives or toggles, with their very fast re-activate rates. The original PPM PS proc was about 2.5x better on average than a Miracle unique. (This is one reason I don't have much sympathy for anyone who bought a bunch of them on the basis of working out what the original PPM meant in terms of endurance recovered / minute. I think anyone who knew how good they were - and used that as a reason to buy them - was, shall we say ... unreasonably optimistic that they would not be changed.)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Oh my... I really should follow those cash item threads. I have no idea they are changing the new ones to that. This is very useful info.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Standard ATO procs are 4 PPM, and Superior ones are 5 PPM. Most of PPM versions of "20% chance" procs I looked at, such as Mako's Bite, are 3 PPM as SBEs. ToD SBE's are 2.5 PPM. The proposed SBE Hecatomb proc comes in at 4.5 PPM, potentially subject to change.
Some of the procs, such as Performance Shifter, apparently did not work out as expected when put passives or toggles, with their very fast re-activate rates. The original PPM PS proc was about 2.5x better on average than a Miracle unique. (This is one reason I don't have much sympathy for anyone who bought a bunch of them on the basis of working out what the original PPM meant in terms of endurance recovered / minute. I think anyone who knew how good they were - and used that as a reason to buy them - was, shall we say ... unreasonably optimistic that they would not be changed.) |
I am so going to buy Purple procs then! 4.5 PPM means each time you use Assassin Strike, you are guaranteed to get a purple proc damage? Holy s@#$!
So the standard proc like Mako's is 3 PPM. Mmmm... is this better than the old 20% fixed rate? Let's take Ablating strike for example. It only recharges in 6s. I suck at math. If you put it in Ablating, which proc is better?
And also, I am not familiar with damage proc in PPM. Is that the "average" chance to happen or it's fixed like Stalker's proc where Guile proc can only happen once within the time limit? The only ATO damage proc I've tried is in Blaster's Dark Blast Gaze which has 20s base recharge. I know whenever Gaze hits, I see the fire damage proc.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
In general, you'd be better off to put the Stalker ATO "re-hide" proc there.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I am so going to buy Purple procs then! 4.5 PPM means each time you use Assassin Strike, you are guaranteed to get a purple proc damage? Holy s@#$!
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Quote:
| So the standard proc like Mako's is 3 PPM. Mmmm... is this better than the old 20% fixed rate? Let's take Ablating strike for example. It only recharges in 6s. I suck at math. If you put it in Ablating, which proc is better? |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Do devs take arcanatime into their PPM calculations?
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
You have to include cast time. That's 1.188 + 6 = 7.188. The chance of the proc going off is CycleTime/60*PPM, or 7.188/60*3 = 0.3594. So the SBE is better by almost 1.8x.
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Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
I do not believe so, based on postings by other players who have done the testing. However, I can't personally answer that one authoritatively, since all my knowledge of the detailed mechanics is thanks to the testing of others.
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Originally Posted by Auroxis
Do devs take arcanatime into their PPM calculations?
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I'm grateful for this thread- I've taken a long break, and over the course of two issues a lot has changed. I maintained my sub, and the SBE procs sound like a nice thing to spend VIP paragon points on.
The stalker changes are excellent, and are what got me looking at the game again; I have a concept for a spines/ice, as the son of my incarnate ice/thorn permadom. I think it'll be a great toon, especially with /ice/levi or /ice/dark backing it up, but here's my wishlist for spines/:
-Make Ripper a 100% crit on the main target, keep 50% crit for the aoe, like thunderstrike. ••Edit•• from hidden status ••/edit••
-Trim animation times for Spine Burst and Impale, perhaps Lunge.
-Discard the legacy Barb Swipe animation.
-•Just a thought• Make the toxic dot 100% chance rather than 80%/tick?
I'll play it regardless because it's thematic; spines/thorns could use some love, though.
50s:
Grimmloch, Tactically Delicious, Ugly Frankie, Operative Tracker, CryoFurnace, Professional Help, Silver Sphinx, Aries Knight, Tachyon Aegis, Jade Sphinx
Currently building:
Any one of half a dozen alts!
So much trolling in this thread...wow.
SBE = Store Bought Enhancements. Several of them proc better than normal IOs. The most notable is the Performance Shifter proc. It infuses 10% end, 3 times per minute. The normal PF IO proc is about 10% every 50 seconds (20% chance). I have 3 PF procs slotted, getting about 11.5 end infused every 8 seconds and I am still running out.
In the end, players with (Old Mcdonald had a farm) SBE IOs doesn't affect me, my gameplay or the fun I have. I could be on a team where everyone else is IO'd to the gills with SBE's and I probably wouldn't even notice. I would just think, "Damn, we're pretty good!"