Quote:
You didn't even read what you quoted. No where did I say the older sets didn't need buffs. Don't quote something that has no context to your post, please.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
What kind of crack you smoking? Stalkers are better yes but there still needs to be more buffage. What I sooner see happening is them breaking the cottage rule and give some of the aoes back, specifically to MA and EM. Right now those are way too single target oriented.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Never said equal. But if all other +DMG powers increase the damage of other attacks, I don't see why you'd change that for RAGE.
Follow Up and Blinding Feint, Power Siphon, ect...all give their +DMG to every other attack. I think the nerf you seem to be asking for is out of place. I also wonder if SS is all that in a set combo like INV, and then don't give it Soul Mastery. Where's does it's ST and AOE damage sit now? How about going the classic route of Laser Beam Eyes and thusly it's AOE attack of Energy Torrent. Just seems most of the RAGE use takes specific powers to obtain that OMG! Without those specific powers it becomes less of an OMG! |
Again, you're using a bad strawman argument to try to convince me Rage does not need a nerf, even though IT and IT ALONE is what brings those numbers so high. Rage + Sets not balanced around it = broken as sin. Gloom isn't balanced around Rage, so the perma +80% Damage steroids it. it steroids any damage aura. it steroids burn. Etc etc etc.
Rage is +80% for 120 Seconds, with it's only gimmick being it's short crash.
Power Siphon has to use Kinetic Melee attacks or it won't be saturated.
Build Up and Aim don't last long enough, and aren't that influential on damage performance anyway.
Follow Up and Blinding Feint give much smaller bonuses, don't last as long as Rage, and aren't nearly the same level of problem. Also, BOTH suffer from Redraw, so you lose damage should you alternate off them.
Quote:
I don't know if that would be buffing Stalkers, but rather tweeking sets.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
What kind of crack you smoking? Stalkers are better yes but there still needs to be more buffage. What I sooner see happening is them breaking the cottage rule and give some of the aoes back, specifically to MA and EM. Right now those are way too single target oriented.
|
And agree on the cottage rule breaking!
Lose Thunder Kick! Replace with Dragon's Tail!
Lose Stun! Replace with Whirling Hands! Give back the old ET animation, or make a new shorter one!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
AS -> CAK -> CS -> SK -> Repeat (Able to be gapless)
Musculature + Reactive Interface (which Im guessing is what the STJ build used)
Can get over 340 DPS (I'm sure higher as I'm pretty sure I under did CAKs damage) so are we sure it's that StJ is so good, and not, MA Stalkers haven't been fully tested yet, quite possibly due to it's lack of Dragon's Tail and thusly people prefereing other sets with a bit more AOE?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
MA was tested extensively pre-buff, so we know they still exist. By all means, post theoretical chains.
|
Originally Posted by BrandX
AS -> CAK -> CS -> SK -> Repeat (Able to be gapless)
Musculature + Reactive Interface (which Im guessing is what the STJ build used) Can get over 340 DPS (I'm sure higher as I'm pretty sure I under did CAKs damage) so are we sure it's that StJ is so good, and not, MA Stalkers haven't been fully tested yet, quite possibly due to it's lack of Dragon's Tail and thusly people prefereing other sets with a bit more AOE? |
Quote:
Well I have no intention of rolling a MA Stalker to test this. |
Originally Posted by Reppu
MA was tested extensively pre-buff, so we know they still exist. By all means, post theoretical chains.
|
MA without Dragon's Tail is suckie imo. Not because of AOE (but it's nice) but because I find it to be one of the signature (to me) move/animations of the set.The same goes with DB's Typhoon's Edge. Without TE, I just don't care for Stalker DB.
Now, I do love WH's animation in EM, but had a EM Stalker anyways, but the other changes to the set had me lose interrest.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Reppu
In response, and in my defense, I say only the following;
You do know what assuming things makes you look like, right? |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Reppu
And again, cease with the (not) subtle jabs. Be mature if you're going to chastise.
|
My point was that you frequently, aggressively attempt to poke holes in others' arguments, one as experienced as yourself in forum antics should know better.
My intent here is to get you to converse/argue with the same standards you seem to expect from others.
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here with respect to your intents as a poster, and your desire to "tone it down".
So, let's start with the premise that SJ is outperforming the other sets (I don't know if it is, but you seem certain that it is). Now, why not apply the same logic that you apply with respect to mms, and bring the other sets up to match, instead of bringing SJ down?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Nerfing a set so another feels better about itself is the wrong way to go about it. It if you nerf demons, then what? Nerf Thugs. Nerf Robotics.
Hell, let's branch ATs. Nerf Phantom Army while we're at it! No. |
Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
Quote:
Both quotes you provided were before my statement on the 28th (25th and 26th respectively), which... just makes it seem like you actually don't care that I'm trying and are just bringing up old wounds in an attempt to prove yourself 'right'.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
t helps to be nice. I'll try. - 3/28/2012
|
In posts beyond the 28th, I've expressed outliers need to be toned down, so you don't overbuff underpowered sets. You should NOT buff up to an Outlier. I do not support 'everything should be overpowered', because I LIKE a challenge with out artificial Nintendo Hard crap put in to try to inflate the difficulty balloon to unsustainable levels.
You must nerf the outliers slightly, then buff everything to that new level of power. If you buff all melee sets to StJ/Titan Weapons, you make Ranged Damage even MORE useless, as Fire Blast is EQUAL to an AVERAGE Melee set, which means you'd have to buff ALL of them to atleast Titan Weapons!
I'll cease this conversation due to your blatant disrespect. That was beyond the line of duty.
Quote:
Minor correction: Crushing Uppercut's crit damage is based on combo 0, regardless of what level of combo you actually fire it at. So a crit combo-3 CU is 3.56+3.18=6.74.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
I did - because it was so far an outlier when compared with other powers. Stalker Eagle Claw (scale 2.92, total 5.84) was the next highest attack with a full critical, then Midnight Grasp (2.76, total 5.52); the fact that CU (base and critical value 3.18, total combo 3 value of 7.155) is allowed to hit harder than a hidden Assassin's Strike (scale 7.0) seemed a bit over the top to me. Especially given Total Focus and its incredibly small critical value in a set without any AoE damage at all. Even if Total Focus had a 100% critical it would still hit for less than a combo level 3 Crushing Uppercut (base of 3.56, full critical of 7.12). Plus CU animates faster than TF, costs less endurance, and has the same magnitude of a "better" mez (hold vs stun), with a secondary soft control and longer range being paid for with the longer base recharge.
For what it's worth I have a single Street Justice Stalker (StJ/Nin), but she's only level 29 so doesn't have CU. She'll get an ATO proc (because that's what's really causing most of the post-i22 "zomgStalkers" issues with the huge DPS numbers) eventually, but really I think that the devs were only okay with the performance - specifically of Crushing Uppercut - since it's basically a "pay-to-win" set. Because you have to spend points to get it, not everyone is going to flock to it... and the history of what gets placed on the market thus far (things like attuned IOs, but also including Titan Weapons) seems to indicate that they have no problem with giving higher performance to people willing to give them more money. |
Still very high, I'm not defending the numbers or anything here.
Quote:
Yup. I PMed Synapse about this issue when SJ was in beta because for an AT that excels in critical damage, it SEEMED unfair that Stalker's critical damage with combo 3 is really just combo 3 + combo 0 damage. Brute's Fury, however, buffs combo 3's base damage.|
Originally Posted by Reiska
Minor correction: Crushing Uppercut's crit damage is based on combo 0, regardless of what level of combo you actually fire it at. So a crit combo-3 CU is 3.56+3.18=6.74.
Still very high, I'm not defending the numbers or anything here. |
At that time, he agreed that he would make Shin Breaker a 10s attack (due to the loss of Rib Cracker's -resist) but I guess things have changed after the new Assassin Strike.
SJ's performance is really good but overpowered? Nah. Stalker has no secondary that can deal massive aoe damage. Stalker's performance is still very "restricted". It is other sets that need to be brought closer to SJ's.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Quote:
Like I said, Ricodah didn't crit half his CU's in that video due to an ATO proc misshap, critting with SC instead which is 4 times less effective. With further optimization his time should rise up significantly. Not up to 450 DPS, but I'd say it would be around 380 DPS.
|
Originally Posted by BrandX
And there's a video on Youtube with a DB Stalker hitting 342.
So what am I missing. Where's the big difference? |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
I take it your are replying to me, so I'll reply. There's nothing for me to be "right" about in my last post - I haven't even taken position yet. |
Originally Posted by Reppu
Both quotes you provided were before my statement on the 28th (25th and 26th respectively), which... just makes it seem like you actually don't care that I'm trying and are just bringing up old wounds in an attempt to prove yourself 'right'.
In posts beyond the 28th, I've expressed outliers need to be toned down, so you don't overbuff underpowered sets. You should NOT buff up to an Outlier. I do not support 'everything should be overpowered', because I LIKE a challenge with out artificial Nintendo Hard crap put in to try to inflate the difficulty balloon to unsustainable levels. |
I apologize if I come off rude here. I was just trying to figure out where you actually stand on balance mechanics - I've heard two pretty much opposite positions from you (hence the - I thought relevant - quote. The other quote was just to remind you of what you said to me in a similar situation). I wasn't insulting you in that post, to jump to insulting me takes the conversation to a different, unnecessary place).
I was not aware that you had changed your mind (I was aware that you were trying a different style of posting, I'm sorry if I missed an opinion shift that came with that). That *is* what I wanted to know though - you could have just said that.
I can't keep up with all your posts (nor would I try). I can only base my opinion of you on interactions that I have actually seen or been involved in and my forum going is somewhat restrained these days (maybe half the AT forums and one or two others).
Quote:
| You must nerf the outliers slightly, then buff everything to that new level of power. If you buff all melee sets to StJ/Titan Weapons, you make Ranged Damage even MORE useless, as Fire Blast is EQUAL to an AVERAGE Melee set, which means you'd have to buff ALL of them to atleast Titan Weapons! |
Quote:
| I'll cease this conversation due to your blatant disrespect. That was beyond the line of duty. |
---back to the topic---
It sounds like:
*The argument is that SJ is significantly better than other stalker primaries in pylon (single target sustained dps) tests.
Is it significantly outperforming scrapper single pylon results as well? By what kind of margin?
A) If it's not, then my initial thought is that other sets should be brought up to it and SJ left alone.
B) If it is out performing scrapper #s, then I'd have to see which sets and by what margins... I'm not convinced that's necessarily a bad thing, as long as the margin isn't huge. If it is pretty substantial, then I can see where the nerf argument is coming from.
Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
Quote:
And in my math for MA, I was only basing CAK's damage as it's not normal mid's average and not the higher average of crit rate due to Stalker Proc in AS. So MA's numbers should be higher as well.|
Originally Posted by Auroxis
Like I said, Ricodah didn't crit half his CU's in that video due to an ATO proc misshap, critting with SC instead which is 4 times less effective. With further optimization his time should rise up significantly. Not up to 450 DPS, but I'd say it would be around 380 DPS.
|
Also, did the StJ attempt you speak of have assault in the build or additional +DMG bonuses, also I didn't include the use of BU in the MA numbers.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
See http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...postcount=2246|
Originally Posted by BrandX
And in my math for MA, I was only basing CAK's damage as it's not normal mid's average and not the higher average of crit rate due to Stalker Proc in AS. So MA's numbers should be higher as well.
Also, did the StJ attempt you speak of have assault in the build or additional +DMG bonuses, also I didn't include the use of BU in the MA numbers. |
I see Assault in there, but I don't know how many damage bonuses he has from sets. He also had a gap in the chain which can be diminished with more recharge.
I wasn't referring to your MA calculations at all.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
Quote:
Noted. Thank you for that. Now then, as for the relevant information..|
Originally Posted by Lobster
*The argument is that SJ is significantly better than other stalker primaries in pylon (single target sustained dps) tests.
Is it significantly outperforming scrapper single pylon results as well? By what kind of margin? A) If it's not, then my initial thought is that other sets should be brought up to it and SJ left alone. B) If it is out performing scrapper #s, then I'd have to see which sets and by what margins... I'm not convinced that's necessarily a bad thing, as long as the margin isn't huge. If it is pretty substantial, then I can see where the nerf argument is coming from. |
It's not Scrappers. I'm not even mentioning Scrappers. This is a specific Stalker-deserving nerf, because they have Assassin's Strike to make up for StJ's normally 'above average' to 'great' attacks, with basically Energy Transfer that can Crit backing it up.
Scrappers don't get that. They have to deal with those good to great attacks, and then have Crushing Uppercut. On top of that, they can't force criticals/have a lower critical rate.
With the upcoming normlization, StJ AS is going to be better, by a .20 margin. This, in DPS tests? Is large enough to worry me further. Crushing Uppercut on Stalkers is just 'too much'. For Stalkers, it is their most powerfully criting ability. This is on top of StJ having more than prominent AoE (people arguing otherwise, really guys? It has two AoEs, both hitting more than hard enough).
The most powerful Critical attack of the Stalker Primaries, plus Assassin's Strike, plus having all 'good' attacks, PLUS the Assassin's Strike and Crushing Uppercut synergy is simply too strong. A flat 50% Critical Damage nerf would probably just be way too much. And I never agreed with 50% Critical Damage anyway. Even 75% may be too much. Maybe 90%? I don't know.
The options are to reduce the flat critical damage of Crushing Uppercut, or reducing the base damage and pumping more into combo damage. This will tone the set down a bit, considering the sheer advantages the patch gave to StJ.
StJ ends up having...
1) Post Normalization, one of the best ST Damage attacks in the game, can critical hit, provides 2 combo points for Crushing Uppercut
2) The best critically damaging (and one of the best DPA), attacks in the game, which can be force-critical'd with an easily available IO. I do not accept "But not everyone uses IO's" argument, because this IS an IO performance argument. Crushing Uppercut getting a slight nerf in light of this, SPECIFICALLY FOR STALKERS, would not harm SO builds in the least. They can't abuse CU, and the slight loss in critical damage wouldn't be as nearly concerning to them. Although I do feel this analysis can even be noteworthy on SO builds.
3) Two AoE's, which is one to two more than many Stalker Sets (And beats the other ST Damage giant, Martial Arts, by 2).
The sheer power and synergy of the set is something to consider. But, if anyone feels "IO's shouldn't matter", I really can't agree with that in this case, as noted above. The Stalker Hide Proc is too easy to get, Stalker Critical Rate can easily be 30% in a team, and it's not even difficult to force crits with out that proc.
It all comes together into "This set does absolutely everything right, and many things better than other sets."
Is it by a large enough margin? I feel it is.
Is it a major concern? Probably not. But, it will be if there ever is a decision to do global 'underperforming set' buffs. StJ for Stalkers it NOT where I want that line drawn. As someone who appreciates legitimate difficulty, and the devs having this seemingly increasing acknowledge of IO level performance, I feel leaving StJ as it is, regardless of the future, is dangerous.
I stress this is Stalker Specific, due to how the AT can effortlessly abuse criticals, with or with out IO Assistance. The other StJ capable ATs do not need this addressed, as with out Assassin's Strike, their Crushing Uppercut is not nearly the goliath Stalker StJ is.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Lobster
My intent here is to get you to converse/argue with the same standards you seem to expect from others.
|
That's what the ignore function is for. I highly recommend it.
That said, the recent buffs combined with the presence of two AOE's in Street Justice has finally gotten me interested in trying Stalkers again. So I'm gonna vote that change is good.
Now we'll see if it can keep my interest. Honestly, making my costume hard to see is...annoying to me. But ehn.
Out of curiosity, does a stealth IO stack with Hide? (Not good at this sneaky stuff.)
T9s should not auto crit from hide(alot of the sets already have this). This is just ridiculous have 2 superior/extreme skills auto crit in a chain
Quote:
I guess that was too much to ask |
Originally Posted by Reppu
I'll cease this conversation due to your blatant disrespect. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dz131
T9s should not auto crit from hide(alot of the sets already have this). This is just AWESOME have 2 superior/extreme skills auto crit in a chain
|
There ya go, fixed that for ya.
That said, I have no issues whatever with stalkers doing ridiculous, amazing, 'holy moly lookithat' damage.
No matter how much damage they do, they have minimal game impact compared to stacking buff/debuff, so let them have fun.
Quote:
It does, but there's really not much reason to do so in PvE. Pretty much nothing can see you unless it ignores Stealth completely.
|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Out of curiosity, does a stealth IO stack with Hide? (Not good at this sneaky stuff.)
|
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I'll have to disagree. There's no reason imo why a ST attack shouldn't crit when hidden. The problem isn't that one crits from Hide.|
Originally Posted by Dz131
T9s should not auto crit from hide(alot of the sets already have this). This is just ridiculous have 2 superior/extreme skills auto crit in a chain
|
While I don't consider the problem, Reppu likely said it best...Assassin Strike and Crushing Uppercut synergize!
This is not a bad thing! It's really not a bad thing when people had to pay extra for it. No, I'm not encouraging play to win. But I do encourage extreme caution nerfing anything that one had to pay extra for.
Stalkers have a top set. This isn't bad. What it's starting to sound like is people aren't liking that StJ may be that set. I say MAY, because it hasn't even been fully tested that StJ is the top set, and if it is, by how much.
That top pylon time came with using Musculature Alpha Slot, Reactive Interface Slot, and likely some +DMG set bonuses, and maybe (unsure) the use of Assault.
Not to mention the use of the Stalker ATO Proc.
The funny thing is, I believe before no one really cared that Assassin Strike gave +2 combo points.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Yeah, the dev's really got it right on this one.
I wish I could buy a token in the store to rebuild at least one of my scrappers as a stalker instead...I would do that in a second. ST oriented scrappers feel a bit anemic to me now compared to a stalker equivalent.
These are prime examples of why City of Heroes isn't going to become difficult anytime soon. The 'acceptance' of something potentially overpowered because it's 'fun', and supposed claims of 'it's working as intended so it's okay!'.
It's just obvious 'guard the precious thing'! Oh well, for now? We'll have to Wait and See if StJ is performing TOO well. Besides, my bigger concern is nerfing Titan Weapons anyway. Although people argue that one too because 'It sucks with out Momentum!', even though it's balanced around not having Momentum and is thusly a good set with out it >_> hrm.
Oh well. If so many aren't worried that StJ is a badly overperforming set, so be it. I just hope it's not the benchmark.
I'm not convinced that stalkers are overpowered even given edge cases using their best sets. Maybe I just suck at stalking but I spared absolutely no expense on my elec/ice and it does indeed shred things en masse, yet it isn't that much different from the strength of my equally-fancy MA/DA scrapper in terms of either single target or aoe. Where the two absolutely differ is in durability; the scrapper can essentially ignore all enemies on an ITF, for instance, despite completely lacking DDR, but the stalker is prone to being two-shotted in under a second any time I forget to renew, or plan to tactically conserve, hoarfrost due to the super low base HP. I admit that's like the harshest circumstance available for /ice stalking short of psychic clockwork missions, but if we're going to be calling things OP surely we need to look at the "OP" scrapper and brute combinations. They are more numerous, they have comparable kill speed, often with much better aoe than stalker SJ, yet they basically shrug off any and all forms of obstacle as well. Why shouldn't stalkers do impressive damage to make up for their very real defensive deficits?
Oh, and to redeem myself a little, at least elec/ice is great for soloing cyst spawns on mission 2. That is, all of the dwarfs and novas and then the cyst and then the ambush.
I brought up scrappers because I think the comparison is relevant.
If SJ stalkers aren't seriously outperforming the stronger scrappers, then I'm not seeing an issue - due to what I feel the role of the stalker is (single target melee damage, although some things like spines/ are a bit special) - and I would suggest the other sets be brought up to par *in some way*.
If they are outperforming, then I want to know by how much and how our current survivability is versus theirs, etc. It sounds like it is still lower.
I'll try and check through the pylon thread and see what the current numbers look like - last time I checked it didn't look like there was enough I22 stuff in there yet.
Guides: Dark Armor and IOs | SS/DA | Crabbing | Fortunata
Besides, it's not like I can't walk into a single active thread and see the same meme fired off at least twice.
That, and it's the best thing ever. A hedgehog, entirely vulnerable, telling someone to bring it on? That's how serious I took the conversation, thus why I used it twice. It was dumb and... you're distracting me. Leo_G stop that.
Ahhh, this poor counter again.
So you think 10 Seconds of 100% (or 80% in some AT's) and 62.5% (50% in some AT's) for 10 seconds is equal to and worth the same as 80% for 120 Seconds?
... >_>
If it's that big of a deal, fine. Nerf Build Up and Aim too? But the fact you think Build Up and Aim are equal to Rage...
...
Okay.
Follow Up and Blinding Feint, Power Siphon, ect...all give their +DMG to every other attack.
I think the nerf you seem to be asking for is out of place. I also wonder if SS is all that in a set combo like INV, and then don't give it Soul Mastery.
Where's does it's ST and AOE damage sit now? How about going the classic route of Laser Beam Eyes and thusly it's AOE attack of Energy Torrent.
Just seems most of the RAGE use takes specific powers to obtain that OMG! Without those specific powers it becomes less of an OMG!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection