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I am not sure if pylon test is the "true" measurement of how Scrapper VS Stalker. I know it's probably the best method we have but Stalker gets a lot more ST damage with party members around him, while Scrapper's aoe has greater potential on a larger team.|
Originally Posted by Lobster
I'll try and check through the pylon thread and see what the current numbers look like - last time I checked it didn't look like there was enough I22 stuff in there yet.
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And I am also curious to find out if Scrapper's SJ is really that weaker than Stalker's.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I think you have this backwards, personally; I'd be concerned if Stalkers weren't outperforming scrapper numbers. They should be outperforming scrapper numbers, flat out.|
Originally Posted by Lobster
It sounds like:
*The argument is that SJ is significantly better than other stalker primaries in pylon (single target sustained dps) tests. Is it significantly outperforming scrapper single pylon results as well? By what kind of margin? A) If it's not, then my initial thought is that other sets should be brought up to it and SJ left alone. B) If it is out performing scrapper #s, then I'd have to see which sets and by what margins... I'm not convinced that's necessarily a bad thing, as long as the margin isn't huge. If it is pretty substantial, then I can see where the nerf argument is coming from. |
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Originally Posted by Reppu
It's not Scrappers. I'm not even mentioning Scrappers. This is a specific Stalker-deserving nerf, because they have Assassin's Strike to make up for StJ's normally 'above average' to 'great' attacks, with basically Energy Transfer that can Crit backing it up.
Scrappers don't get that. They have to deal with those good to great attacks, and then have Crushing Uppercut. On top of that, they can't force criticals/have a lower critical rate. |
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Originally Posted by Reppu
With the upcoming normlization, StJ AS is going to be better, by a .20 margin. This, in DPS tests? Is large enough to worry me further. Crushing Uppercut on Stalkers is just 'too much'. For Stalkers, it is their most powerfully criting ability. This is on top of StJ having more than prominent AoE (people arguing otherwise, really guys? It has two AoEs, both hitting more than hard enough).
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Originally Posted by Reppu
The most powerful Critical attack of the Stalker Primaries, plus Assassin's Strike, plus having all 'good' attacks, PLUS the Assassin's Strike and Crushing Uppercut synergy is simply too strong. A flat 50% Critical Damage nerf would probably just be way too much. And I never agreed with 50% Critical Damage anyway. Even 75% may be too much. Maybe 90%? I don't know.
The options are to reduce the flat critical damage of Crushing Uppercut, or reducing the base damage and pumping more into combo damage. This will tone the set down a bit, considering the sheer advantages the patch gave to StJ. |
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
1. Not all T9 attacks have auto critical 100% damage. Not Ninja, Broadsword, Claw, Dual Blade, Energy Melee, Kinetic Melee, Electricity, and Spine. I don't know where you get the idea that many T9 attacks have 100% critical chance with double the damage.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
2. Crushing Uppercut has 25s base recharge which is longer than most T9 attacks. Uppercut is no doubt an excellent attack but it is still only one target. And I've played so many Stalkers and I can tell you that SJ is not overpowered on a large team setting. SJ mostly only excels in ST damage. I'll gladly take Electricity over SJ on a large team. Is SJ better than MA? Sure. But is MA too weak? Hell yeah. There is no reason to give Stalker 7 ST attacks in a primary set. Actually, "weak" is the wrong choice of word. I would say "Bad Design" is more like it. There is no reason to create a set with 7 ST attacks and no aoe.
I don't understand the notion that just because some old sets are "bad", the new sets need to get nerfed. It's just like I've been reading more about Scrappers needing a buff just because Stalker suddenly got better? Stalker, as a 10/10 Melee Damage Specialist, was way under-powered. |
Also, the "buff Scrappers" stuff is hooey.
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Scrapper StJ is definitely still a high-performing set, but the high DPA of Crushing Uppercut is held back more by not having a second attack of similar power (i.e. AS) in its attack chains.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I am not sure if pylon test is the "true" measurement of how Scrapper VS Stalker. I know it's probably the best method we have but Stalker gets a lot more ST damage with party members around him, while Scrapper's aoe has greater potential on a larger team.
And I am also curious to find out if Scrapper's SJ is really that weaker than Stalker's. |
The ST performance is probably War Mace-ish, at a guess, since War Mace has a similar overall set profile (one REALLY GOOD attack in Clobber being held back by a bunch of average attacks).
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Hmmm...interresting...I have yet to say nerf TW. And it's been how long now since i22 was released?|
Originally Posted by Reppu
These are prime examples of why City of Heroes isn't going to become difficult anytime soon. The 'acceptance' of something potentially overpowered because it's 'fun', and supposed claims of 'it's working as intended so it's okay!'.
It's just obvious 'guard the precious thing'! Oh well, for now? We'll have to Wait and See if StJ is performing TOO well. Besides, my bigger concern is nerfing Titan Weapons anyway. Although people argue that one too because 'It sucks with out Momentum!', even though it's balanced around not having Momentum and is thusly a good set with out it >_> hrm. Oh well. If so many aren't worried that StJ is a badly overperforming set, so be it. I just hope it's not the benchmark. |
You have one video, based around using incarnate content powers, without talking about what the top level of other Stalker Primaries are.
You know, if StJ was doing 340 DPS with just the Stalker changes, then yes, I'd say you're right, nerf StJ.
It's not. It's doing around 200ish (dont know exact number).
And an incarnate doing 340 DPS, does not impress me. A non incarnate Defender can do better than that.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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If you're looking for a test, may I humbly suggest my old AE arc209245. |
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I am not sure if pylon test is the "true" measurement of how Scrapper VS Stalker. I know it's probably the best method we have but Stalker gets a lot more ST damage with party members around him, while Scrapper's aoe has greater potential on a larger team.
And I am also curious to find out if Scrapper's SJ is really that weaker than Stalker's. |
Several people ran this a while back, and at maximum settings it is capable of stressing to failure even the most extreme brute/crab/tanker builds, and yet has been completed at maximum by blasters and scrappers as well.
Give it a whirl on a tooled-up stalker, see how you feel about it.
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Eagle's Claw = 100% Crit|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
1. Not all T9 attacks have auto critical 100% damage. Not Ninja, Broadsword, Claw, Dual Blade, Energy Melee, Kinetic Melee, Electricity, and Spine. I don't know where you get the idea that many T9 attacks have 100% critical chance with double the damage.
2. Crushing Uppercut has 25s base recharge which is longer than most T9 attacks. Uppercut is no doubt an excellent attack but it is still only one target. And I've played so many Stalkers and I can tell you that SJ is not overpowered on a large team setting. SJ mostly only excels in ST damage. I'll gladly take Electricity over SJ on a large team. Is SJ better than MA? Sure. But is MA too weak? Hell yeah. There is no reason to give Stalker 7 ST attacks in a primary set. Actually, "weak" is the wrong choice of word. I would say "Bad Design" is more like it. There is no reason to create a set with 7 ST attacks and no aoe. I don't understand the notion that just because some old sets are "bad", the new sets need to get nerfed. It's just like I've been reading more about Scrappers needing a buff just because Stalker suddenly got better? Stalker, as a 10/10 Melee Damage Specialist, was way under-powered. |
Concentrated Strike = 100% Crit
Dark Melee = 100% Crit
The reason the other Tier 9's don't crit is because
1) They're AOEs
2) The exception of EM, which is guilty of being a stalker set since i6
Crushing Uppercut has the longest recharge of any T9, and it's damage is focused into combo points.
A combo level 0 CU last I knew was not as impressive. CU gets that bonus for building up combo points, if anything, bemoan the fact that StJ has an easy combo system based on people thinking DB's combo system was hard.
Back to the 100% Crit...should be noted that CS doesn't do double damage when it crit, instead it instantly recharges Build Up, but that's +80% Damage to all attacks used, and in the right chain, that can be doubled up on some of the attacks.
So yes, I want to see other sets Pylon Times without incarnate abilities (this includes StJ) and I want to see other sets Pylon times with roughly the same build (at least in the case of Incarnate powers).
DB has already been shown to be up there, with like 4 DPS less than the StJ times. Yeah, I'm not going to worry about differences in DPS if StJ is only leading the pack by 4 DPS.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Yes I am very well aware of that... |
Originally Posted by BrandX
The reason the other Tier 9's don't crit is because
1) They're AOEs 2) The exception of EM, which is guilty of being a stalker set since i6 |
The post said many T9 already has 100% critical so Uppercut shouldn't be 100% and I am merely pointing out that majority of T9 are not 100% critical. T_T
And also, StJ was created before they introduced the new Assassin Strike. Who knows.. maybe Synapse already had that idea or it was introduced later. If it's later, then StJ got lucky that it has two extreme ST attacks because nerfing other powers to fit the new AS in seems counter-productive.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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War Mace is definitely one set that I'll play as Stalker!!! |
Originally Posted by Reiska
Scrapper StJ is definitely still a high-performing set, but the high DPA of Crushing Uppercut is held back more by not having a second attack of similar power (i.e. AS) in its attack chains.
The ST performance is probably War Mace-ish, at a guess, since War Mace has a similar overall set profile (one REALLY GOOD attack in Clobber being held back by a bunch of average attacks). |
Scrapper's StJ's ST damage may be a bit behind Stalker in terms of raw damage but I am sure Scrapper can make it up with a bit higher HP and more aoe damage from secondaries. I just don't see some people's point of view that just because Stalker is now doing similar damage as Scrapper, it needs to be nerfed.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Is there any way to leverage the AOE of StJ to good benefit?
Is Mids accurate in saying SS has a 6 ft radius?
Maybe tanks and/or brutes can herd things up enough to get a lot of benefit from a 6 ft radius attack but stalkers don't shine at it.
And yes StJ also has a small 50 degree cone attack as well.
Honestly, I think you have to view it as a ST oriented set on stalkers and leave it at that.
I saw some earlier posts in this thread that said basically, "It is top tier ST and also very good AOE." I don't really see how it has very good AOE on a stalker. Maybe someone could explain to me how to do it.
Maybe I am biased because of my current main of a fire/fire/fire dom...but I play StJ/SR and it might as well not have any AOE as far as I am concerned because the AOE sucks ***.
I do think the StJ/SR is a LOT of fun though and has GREAT ST damage.
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
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... This is just proof you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, BrandX.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Hmmm...interresting...I have yet to say nerf TW. And it's been how long now since i22 was released?
You have one video, based around using incarnate content powers, without talking about what the top level of other Stalker Primaries are. You know, if StJ was doing 340 DPS with just the Stalker changes, then yes, I'd say you're right, nerf StJ. It's not. It's doing around 200ish (dont know exact number). And an incarnate doing 340 DPS, does not impress me. A non incarnate Defender can do better than that. |
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I would adore the heck out of War Mace on Stalkers if they got it.
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
War Mace is definitely one set that I'll play as Stalker!!!
Scrapper's StJ's ST damage may be a bit behind Stalker in terms of raw damage but I am sure Scrapper can make it up with a bit higher HP and more aoe damage from secondaries. I just don't see some people's point of view that just because Stalker is now doing similar damage as Scrapper, it needs to be nerfed. |
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I don't know what I'm talking about, because I think testing reaching the other sets maxed DPS needs to be done first, before going on a nerf StJ rampage? o.O|
Originally Posted by Reppu
... This is just proof you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, BrandX.
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What was the number for theoritical StJ top DPS? 450?
I did the math for MA to get it over 340 DPS without the use of Build Up, so with the use of Build Up, that's an additional...what? Figuring being up often enough with all the +RCH one needs to obtain these chains...
My Kinetic Melee/WP reached over 200 DPS without Reactive or Musculature Incarnate abilities.
With the attack chain of BB -> SB -> AS -> CS -> BU -> Repeat (not sure if the proc was fixed so this was possible) and having use of Incarnate Abilities, that's over 340 DPS.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Then why did you pull numbers out of your butt like that? You seriously... that entire post was just... what. BrandX, don't do things like that. That doesn't help your argument what so ever.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I don't know what I'm talking about, because I think testing reaching the other sets maxed DPS needs to be done first, before going on a nerf StJ rampage? o.O
What was the number for theoritical StJ top DPS? 450? I did the math for MA to get it over 340 DPS without the use of Build Up, so with the use of Build Up, that's an additional...what? Figuring being up often enough with all the +RCH one needs to obtain these chains... My Kinetic Melee/WP reached over 200 DPS without Reactive or Musculature Incarnate abilities. With the attack chain of BB -> SB -> AS -> CS -> BU -> Repeat (not sure if the proc was fixed so this was possible) and having use of Incarnate Abilities, that's over 340 DPS. |
And how much do you think Reactive and Musculature add?! Do you honestly believe they add >140 DPS<?!
You are aware that video did not use Lore Pets, right? Which CAN steroid DPS that high. But Musculature and Reactive are NOT worth 140 DPS.
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I was using MIDS numbers. Of all the Mids numbers, only CU looked to be messed up as it gave the same number no matter what combo level.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Then why did you pull numbers out of your butt like that? You seriously... that entire post was just... what. BrandX, don't do things like that. That doesn't help your argument what so ever.
And how much do you think Reactive and Musculature add?! Do you honestly believe they add >140 DPS<?! You are aware that video did not use Lore Pets, right? Which CAN steroid DPS that high. But Musculature and Reactive are NOT worth 140 DPS. |
Now of course MIDS could easily be wrong on the numbers. And the DPS number I used for KM used a normalized AS (which we know it hasnt been normalized yet, and to be fair, while the devs do want to normalize them, that can easily be 2 years from now).
But, my test with a KM/WP Stalker, did match up to the numbers I was getting from MIDS, so I'm not so inclined to believe they're that far off.
And Musculature is adding an additional (roughly) 33% Damage beyond ED, Reactive is just the best Interface period for additional damage. That's Fire Proc and -Resist (which Im sure you know, Im just restating it).
One thing I do think that is helping get those high numbers is the +33% Damage to AS (not to mention a combo level 3 CU).
What I am lacking is the build for this super awesome StJ build. I don't know it's attack chain, and I don't know how it's proced out. I'm guessing it's possibly using 2 -Resist Procs (1 in Sweeping Cross and 1 in Shin Breaker) at least 1 purple proc (maybe 2 if they put the Purple Hold Proc in CU), and likely a few other procs (and no idea if they're normal procs or Store Bought Procs, which last I recall actually gave out better numbers).
There's also the factor of how much additional +DMG the StJ has achieved through set bonuses and possibly the use of Assault.
Lastly, did the StJ build have boosted enhancements?
I do know Reactive alone increased my DB/WP's DPS by about 50-60 DPS, and that build didn't use Muscualture.
This is why I said, it's to early to call for nerfs to StJ. We've heard the top DPS of an incarnated out build, that sounds like it was built to the max for all the +DMG it could fit in (boosted enhancements, musculature alpha, reactive interface...ect...ect).
Now I don't mind the comparisons on equally IOed builds, though that makes it a bit unfair as sets such as StJ can fit in 2 Purple Procs and 2 -Resist Procs, while MA gets 1 Purple Proc (unless I forgot one).
And something I've said before, and still think, they need to allow CaK to slot -Defense sets so it can slot that -Resist Proc that everyone loves.
And I didnt pull the 340 DPS DB/ Stalker out of my butt. It's on youtube.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Hehe, you were the one trying to turn things to be about me. No, this is about Reppu flashing her hedgehog berries. Once, and it's harmless. More than once and now we're wondering what she's trying to tell us.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
I don't like memes, so when I find one I DO like, I'm going to keep using it.
Besides, it's not like I can't walk into a single active thread and see the same meme fired off at least twice. That, and it's the best thing ever. A hedgehog, entirely vulnerable, telling someone to bring it on? That's how serious I took the conversation, thus why I used it twice. It was dumb and... you're distracting me. Leo_G stop that. |
Got anything more enticing you want to flash us next?
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Originally Posted by Jibikao
Yup. I PMed Synapse about this issue when SJ was in beta because for an AT that excels in critical damage, it SEEMED unfair that Stalker's critical damage with combo 3 is really just combo 3 + combo 0 damage. Brute's Fury, however, buffs combo 3's base damage.
At that time, he agreed that he would make Shin Breaker a 10s attack (due to the loss of Rib Cracker's -resist) but I guess things have changed after the new Assassin Strike. SJ's performance is really good but overpowered? Nah. Stalker has no secondary that can deal massive aoe damage. Stalker's performance is still very "restricted". It is other sets that need to be brought closer to SJ's. |
Just to point out: It's kind of dumb to mention that it 'seemed' unfair that Stalker's inherent didn't apply fully to an attack under the assumption of the AT's functionality before it was altered then change stance afterward...not if you're going to apply the logic that Stalkers get no secondary that can deal more damage. Because if the AT's functionality can be altered to greatly improve its performance, the AT can just as easily (possibly even more easy) receive more secondaries that throw that argument right out the window.
And frankly, I think there's room to bring down StJ *AND* bring up other primary sets to even them out more. Because, under the premise of 'bringing sets closer to StJ', you come at the problem with the solution of 'moar dmg'. More damage is not always nor should it always be the answer. If Energy Melee's stuns were greatly improved, I'd buy that buff and play EM under the premise it is a ST set with high control. Don't need DPS to be fun or effective...
50-60 DPS is an impossibility for Reactive. Well, almost.
Six stacks, permanent, is worth roughly 48 DPS. This value is extremely difficult to keep saturated with out pet assistance. Also, you were talking about StJ before, not DB. Kindly try to keep consistent, BrandX. I am not a psychic. I cannot read your whimsical conversation turns.
That StJ build is in the Pylon Test Thread. You can find it.
More to the point, let me stop you there. Let's say you manage to get a Tier 4, fully saturated Reactive on an enemy for an additional 48 DPS (Again, impossible with out pets or pseudopets). That is still 92 unaccounted for DPS. I don't believe Musculature is capable of adding an additional 92 DPS with out an unaccounted for attack chain, but it's something I will have to examine.
Regardless, it would be more than 92 DPS, as there is no way, unless you use pseudo pets or pets, you can maintain saturated Reactive. That DPS amount is entirely reliant on keeping it permanently stacked.
Well, no. It's not impossible to get to six stacks solo, but keeping it six is just not going to happen.
Regardless, 33% Bonus Damage is not going to equal 33% Increased DPS, due to how 33% damage relates to each individual power on each individual AT.
All things said and done, someone better with heavy number crunching is likely better for this, but yeah. Don't suddenly talk about Dual Blades when we're talking about StJ performance. And again, the theoretical and posted StJ build is on the forums for the 400+ DPS Benchmark.
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I agree. And while I do like high DPS admittedly, for me, that's based on the idea of "to solo a wide variety of AVs" (could be all, but at least a good portion of them), while GM's being out of reach is perfectly exceptable to me (Hero vs Archvillain = should have the chance, even if that means building for it. Hero vs Giant Monster = Superhero team up time!)|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Hehe, you were the one trying to turn things to be about me. No, this is about Reppu flashing her hedgehog berries. Once, and it's harmless. More than once and now we're wondering what she's trying to tell us.
Got anything more enticing you want to flash us next? Just to point out: It's kind of dumb to mention that it 'seemed' unfair that Stalker's inherent didn't apply fully to an attack under the assumption of the AT's functionality before it was altered then change stance afterward...not if you're going to apply the logic that Stalkers get no secondary that can deal more damage. Because if the AT's functionality can be altered to greatly improve its performance, the AT can just as easily (possibly even more easy) receive more secondaries that throw that argument right out the window. And frankly, I think there's room to bring down StJ *AND* bring up other primary sets to even them out more. Because, under the premise of 'bringing sets closer to StJ', you come at the problem with the solution of 'moar dmg'. More damage is not always nor should it always be the answer. If Energy Melee's stuns were greatly improved, I'd buy that buff and play EM under the premise it is a ST set with high control. Don't need DPS to be fun or effective... |
Basically, how I see it goes for a lot of my favorite solo superheroes.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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...|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Hehe, you were the one trying to turn things to be about me. No, this is about Reppu flashing her hedgehog berries. Once, and it's harmless. More than once and now we're wondering what she's trying to tell us.
Got anything more enticing you want to flash us next? |
Ignoring that last bit, I'm going to say one thing, Leo_G. I don't think that is what you think it is. As a hedgehog owner... yeah.
... You're thinking just a wee bit too far south.
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I didn't suddenly talk about Dual Blades.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
50-60 DPS is an impossibility for Reactive. Well, almost.
Six stacks, permanent, is worth roughly 48 DPS. This value is extremely difficult to keep saturated with out pet assistance. Also, you were talking about StJ before, not DB. Kindly try to keep consistent, BrandX. I am not a psychic. I cannot read your whimsical conversation turns. That StJ build is in the Pylon Test Thread. You can find it. More to the point, let me stop you there. Let's say you manage to get a Tier 4, fully saturated Reactive on an enemy for an additional 48 DPS (Again, impossible with out pets or pseudopets). That is still 92 unaccounted for DPS. I don't believe Musculature is capable of adding an additional 92 DPS with out an unaccounted for attack chain, but it's something I will have to examine. Regardless, it would be more than 92 DPS, as there is no way, unless you use pseudo pets or pets, you can maintain saturated Reactive. That DPS amount is entirely reliant on keeping it permanently stacked. Well, no. It's not impossible to get to six stacks solo, but keeping it six is just not going to happen. Regardless, 33% Bonus Damage is not going to equal 33% Increased DPS, due to how 33% damage relates to each individual power on each individual AT. All things said and done, someone better with heavy number crunching is likely better for this, but yeah. Don't suddenly talk about Dual Blades when we're talking about StJ performance. And again, the theoretical and posted StJ build is on the forums for the 400+ DPS Benchmark. |
I mentioned it in a previous post, when StJ was said to be far and above every other set, with it's 340+ DPS, and then mentioned there was a youtube video of a DB Stalker getting 340 DPS.
I then calculated a chain for MA which hit that mark (340) and then one for Kinetic Melee. Both using MIDS numbers.
Unless Mids is wrong on the Reactive Interface (and I said it could be), I don't think it was wrong on the Kinetic Melee chain that I used on my own pylon run with a KM/WP that matched the numbers from mids.
But my KM/WP didnt have Reactive Interface or Musculature Alpha Proc. But according to MIDS, using those two Incarnate abilities really ups that DPS.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Your proposed chain has one flaw, mind.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
I didn't suddenly talk about Dual Blades.
I mentioned it in a previous post, when StJ was said to be far and above every other set, with it's 340+ DPS, and then mentioned there was a youtube video of a DB Stalker getting 340 DPS. I then calculated a chain for MA which hit that mark (340) and then one for Kinetic Melee. Both using MIDS numbers. Unless Mids is wrong on the Reactive Interface (and I said it could be), I don't think it was wrong on the Kinetic Melee chain that I used on my own pylon run with a KM/WP that matched the numbers from mids. But my KM/WP didnt have Reactive Interface or Musculature Alpha Proc. But according to MIDS, using those two Incarnate abilities really ups that DPS. |
BB -> SB -> AS -> CS -> BU
This chain? Is impossible unless you get lucky. The proc has a 10 second inherent cooldown. Your chain, once AS is used and procs, is 7.128 seconds. You have a 2.872 delay until the proc can activate again. Thus, that DPS is substantially less.
I am quite aware of that DB build's performance, BUT there is no logical reason StJ can't beat that value. We'll see in the near future, I hope?
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Yes, and I thought I said I wasn't sure if the hide duration was fixed to run that chain, I just recall people saying that would be the best chain for KM if it was fixed.|
Originally Posted by Reppu
Your proposed chain has one flaw, mind.
BB -> SB -> AS -> CS -> BU This chain? Is impossible unless you get lucky. The proc has a 10 second inherent cooldown. Your chain, once AS is used and procs, is 7.128 seconds. You have a 2.872 delay until the proc can activate again. Thus, that DPS is substantially less. I am quite aware of that DB build's performance, BUT there is no logical reason StJ can't beat that value. We'll see in the near future, I hope? |
If we go with the following chain...
BS -> BB -> FB -> AS -> CS -> BU -> Repeat which is what I went with on my testing, getting roughly around 220-230 DPS, it matched up with what I was getting from mids.
With Reactive and Musculature (according to mids) that comes to 301 DPS.
If we replace FB with QS (which is a better DPS attack than FB) it shortens the chain from 10.56 seconds to 8.184 seconds.
If that chain is long enough to not have the hide proc get screwed up (I don't know) that comes to roughly 365 DPS (Reactive and Musculature, but no +DMG or Assault). Obviously it should come out to less as it doesn't take into account missing.
Havent searched for the StJ build yet. So, I dont know how it's calculated to come to 450 DPS (I'm also guessing this is without Lore Pets involved). But I'll look for it and compare to other Primaries.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Okay found it By the looks of what was said, while it has the potential for high DPS, it looks like missing can totally screw up the chain, which in my experience, you're going to miss.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
What.....is wrong with you guys?!
Trying to get Stalkers nerfed after they just received a boost?
So, Crushing Uppercut does incredibly high damage from hide.
So what?
AS is the most powerful ST attack on any set for a Stalker. Crushing Uppercut goes well right after it when you have the proc, and you get a powerful combo.
Again, so what?
Stalkers have been in the shadows for so long, and now that they get some recognition for dealing some serious ST damage, all of a sudden, they get an attack that's too strong and needs to be nerfed.
Why?! Just leave the Stalkers alone!!! *Sobs* Leave them alone!
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I agreed. Or at least, I thought it was to soon to say, and talk of the high ST DPS seems to be based around Incarnate Powers, which of course puts you up there even more.
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Originally Posted by Synesence
What.....is wrong with you guys?!
Trying to get Stalkers nerfed after they just received a boost? So, Crushing Uppercut does incredibly high damage from hide. So what? AS is the most powerful ST attack on any set for a Stalker. Crushing Uppercut goes well right after it when you have the proc, and you get a powerful combo. Again, so what? Stalkers have been in the shadows for so long, and now that they get some recognition for dealing some serious ST damage, all of a sudden, they get an attack that's too strong and needs to be nerfed. Why?! Just leave the Stalkers alone!!! *Sobs* Leave them alone! |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
2. Crushing Uppercut has 25s base recharge which is longer than most T9 attacks. Uppercut is no doubt an excellent attack but it is still only one target. And I've played so many Stalkers and I can tell you that SJ is not overpowered on a large team setting. SJ mostly only excels in ST damage. I'll gladly take Electricity over SJ on a large team. Is SJ better than MA? Sure. But is MA too weak? Hell yeah. There is no reason to give Stalker 7 ST attacks in a primary set. Actually, "weak" is the wrong choice of word. I would say "Bad Design" is more like it. There is no reason to create a set with 7 ST attacks and no aoe.
I don't understand the notion that just because some old sets are "bad", the new sets need to get nerfed. It's just like I've been reading more about Scrappers needing a buff just because Stalker suddenly got better? Stalker, as a 10/10 Melee Damage Specialist, was way under-powered.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.