Concerned about Scrappers.

To get Tankers fixed, yeah, I'll fight the world. "Hurr!" /em taunt



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It does not matter, they want something because another AT was brought up to speed and no amount of logic or lack of need is going to stop the whining and begging by certain parties.

That nearly indestructible shield tells me otherwise.

I'm reminded of a moment in the comics (forget the issue) where he puts spider-man behind him and ducks behind the shield while the Hulk pounds away at it.

To me Captain America and that shield are inseparable as a comic character.

I say Tank all the way.

And if we go with the idea of Cap being a tanker it goes along with the idea of a low damage Tanker to go with Blob! that's two tankers who can't destroy the world! \o/

Sooo...Tankers are broken?

Unless you are free player or premium with no access to Incarnate content.

Again, you can't use Incarnate content or IOs in basic AT balance.

Even more so now in the age of COH FREEDOM.

you can pretend to ignore that point all you want, but that's the REALITY now, more than ever.

/Just saying.


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This. I LOVE the fact that they are simple and well rounded. It's why it was the FIRST AT I ever rolled up in this game.

You appear to have missed the part of this thread where I admitted scrappers didn't need help. I also rescinded all the suggestions I made to that end. Including the one that upset PrincessDarkstar.

Also, this.

I've been saying this all along.

You CAN NOT adjust the balance between ATs because one AT can slot IOs and get nearly up to another in one area or can use Incarnate powers to make up the difference.

Why? Because those things are not equally available to ALL players.

Tell me, would you play a game that told you point blank that you have to give them money and grind your character to the level cap, then grind some more to get shinies, JUST to reach a point where your character is balanced against the rest of them?

I certainly wouldn't, and I imagine quite a few people would feel the same about it.

So Brutes can almost reach Tanker survivability. So what?

To use Johnny's Shield/SS tank as an example:

He said he routinely hits the damage cap all by himself with that character, but he can only do that because he doesn't have to expend any IO slotting to get his defense soft-capped. At all. That means he can pack enough recharge onto his build to keep Rage doubles stacked for a large percentage of his playtime.

A SS/Shield brute, on the other hand, has to expend a significant portion of his IO slotting getting defense bonuses. Every power he slots to get a defense bonus is one he is not slotting for a recharge bonus. That means he is probably not double stacking Rage for nearly as much time.

A SS/Shield brute has a choice to make. he can slot for recharge and maximize his damage output, sacrificing his ability to reach peak survival, or he can slot to get his defense soft-capped, and sacrifice some damage potential by not being able to double stack Rage.

A Shield/SS tank does not have to make that choice. He can soft-cap just by slotting his powers and adding a single Steadfast Res/Def. That leaves him free to pile recharge on until his Rage is nearly perma-doublestacked.

End result: A Shield/SS tank is either A)outdamaging, or B)massively outsurviving a SS/Shield brute when placed in a similar solo situation, depending on whether the brute felt damage or defense was more important. The kicker? Even if the brute decided to slot for defense, the tank is STILL going to outlive him, due to higher HP and higher base resistances in the tank's Shield powers. So, if the brute decides to slot for defense instead of recharge, the tank is going to outshine him when solo, hands down.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

You're just... concerned about them... like a well-meaning parent, then?

WTH are you crying to me about if you read what I said and you felt this way then I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT YOU.

"THEY" meaning the people that qualify, if you don't qualify then it was not about you.

It is fair to be concerned that Scrappers have nothing that is unique to them. They however are not in any other kind of trouble at all.

Except for all the times Cap has gone out and kicked mass amounts of butt w/o the shield. Scrapper all the way.

Shoot, the movie was like one scrapper challenge after another. He was constantly told "You can't do that." He always responded "Watch me." That is the scrapper attitude all the way, for prof go look at the scrapper boards. Cap also attacks with that shield as much or more than he defends with it, again very scrapperish. I would say StJ/Shield all the way.

Dude, that is almost as offensive as some of what Johnny has said. It has nothing to do with another AT being brought up to speed for me. In fact I am playing a stalker right now, and having a blast. I have had an issue with this since Stalkers first got crits outside of hide, which was years ago.

Each AT should have a unique mechanic, period. Not just Scrappers I feel this way about the WHOLE of the game. Right now, as far as I can tell, Scrappers are the only AT w/o a unique mechanic.

Through the whole of this my suggestion is the one that seems to have the least impact on balance.

Also, these threads are a way to refine ideas that we are presenting to the devs. If you don't like what is being said, don't read the thread. It is that simple.

It became that years ago when J_B stated directly that all the people who had ever advocated for Tankers or assisted with their development over the years, including all the old school tankers that worked with the devs to get punchvoke, to better balance primary defensive strength, to focus attention on the ability to generate aggro and survive damage, were all part of the problem.

That's honestly the only serious problem I have with J_B. That he asks for impossible or game balance-ludicrous things isn't unique. That he often asserts that he's the only person who cares about tankers, and anyone who claims to but doesn't share his view of them is either ignorant or a liar, is what makes his position on tankers abrasively untenable.

They should? Any reason why?
That makes them unique then, doesn't it?

Seems to me it's useful to have an AT without gimmicks for the people who don't like the other ATs' gimmicks. I know there's folks who might play Brutes except that they dislike Fury, or want a damage dealer but they don't like Stalkers' stealth mechanics. And the balanced nature of Scrappers is a selling point in and of itself.

Scrappers have plenty to recommend them as they are. They really don't need a bell or whistle. The lack of one, and the lack of need for one, is what makes them special.

We will have to agree to disagree on that. Multiple times I have suggested something that is not a gimmick (I don't want one on scrappers either) and maintains the balance of the game.

Heh, and this is why trying to pigeon hole the ATs into this or that characters is widely open to interpretation and CAN'T be used as a balance rationale. . .

*looks at a certain poster*

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We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. NO, I do not agree that every AT needs a unique mechanic, especially when it's essentially not needed in terms of balance. I like that we have ONE AT that has the main goal of "punch things in the face in melee, the end."

Especially NOW that we have new players to the game. It's nice to have one AT that you can point them to that isn't complicated or doesn't need a write up to explain. I think EVERY mmo needs at least ONE class like that. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Yep, and there is no way the world can defeat him but his damage cannot overcome the world's regen.

I can live with that.

However, the inherent end boost I suggested would change none of what anyone loves about scrappers. It would just let them do more of it, with less down time. I would love to see my scrappers have a total of 125 end by lvl 50 w/o accolades or IO's. +5 end total every 10 levels would be awesome, and not unbalancing.

I definitely agree. The game should not be made more complicated as if being complicated were inherently a good thing. Simple AT's and complicated AT's may be for different players. You don't have to like every AT, just one of them.

Diversity is good.

I would not complain about that, provided to get that the devs don't change something else about scrappers to offset it.

I gotta admit, Bosstone has a point.

Scrappers are the only AT that doesn't have a unique mechanic.

That makes them the only one of something.

If something is the only one of something, it is, by definition.......unique.

Well played, sir.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

I missed that post the first time.

LOL!