A simple suggestion for knockback woes
By
Atilla_The_Pun,
Posted on: 2012-02-24 23:23 in Suggestions and Ideas
I would like to see some way of limiting KB.
So if this is how it's done, fine by me.
I would say, if possible, add an attribute to an enhancement (IO) that says, "always KD"...so if you slot the IO into a KB power, that specific power always does KD (obviously if you hit a gray conned minion/mob with it, it'd probably still be KB since you're "way above him" but...).
*shrugs*
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I'd probably never use it. It'd be more convenient than the occasionally suggested Null the Gull option, though.
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Farewell is like the end
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Keep in mind that Null the Gull is a workaround because... I don't know, Paragon can't afford a UI programmer? But anyway, I'm trying to keep it as simple as possible - the solution in this case would use readily available tools rather than trying to add new features into the old code. Basically, trying to KISS.
I used to play another MMO. It has built-in voice chat. Sounds great, right?
It is -- right up until you see someone kicked from a group for not using it.
I feel this would be treated the same way. Add this (or any method of reducing/removing knockback, really), and suddenly people who didn't want to use it for whatever reason would find themselves forced to. It would become mandatory in practice, even if it wasn't in theory.
The knocker-backer's "responsibility" would be to always have this toggled on like a stalker with Hide, rather than what it should be: to learn to use their knockback effectively. And the "knockback ruins everything" people would never have a chance to learn that it doesn't. They'd just spam "NO KB PLZ" until the energy blaster either decided to comply or left the team in disgust.
FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
If people don't want to personally deal with KB they need to pick a powerset without it.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Honestly, I think CoH is both casual enough and has a playerbase considerate enough to avoid this pitfall. If I have yet to kick a Lv40+ tank for never taking Taunt or a melee hurricaner, I'm not going to kick anyone for using knockback either.|
Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
I used to play another MMO. It has built-in voice chat. Sounds great, right?
It is -- right up until you see someone kicked from a group for not using it. |
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
If people don't want to personally deal with KB they need to pick a powerset without it.
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You're not. I'm not either. But some people would be, especially if solving the non-existent "problem" were as simple as clicking a toggle that they knew everyone with knockback had by default. An un-restrained blaster wouldn't be treated like a tank without Taunt, or like a Kinetics defender without Speed Boost -- even someone who used knockback extremely well would be treated by some like a stalker who refused to Hide. Would you kick a stalker for not using Hide? Even if you wouldn't, don't you think there are more than a few people who might?|
Originally Posted by Quinch
Honestly, I think CoH is both casual enough and has a playerbase considerate enough to avoid this pitfall. If I have yet to kick a Lv40+ tank for never taking Taunt or a melee hurricaner, I'm not going to kick anyone for using knockback either.
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And with some powers, knockback is almost or entirely the reason to even have the power at all. Repel? Gale? Power Thrust? Those last two are tier one powers that anyone taking their set as a secondary has to take. So they should also get a toggle that basically shuts the power off, but still lets them waste time (and endurance?) doing the animation for it?
Sorry, I appreciate what you're trying to do, but the only "solution" to knockback issues I can get behind is a combination of players learning to use it well and other players learning to deal with a little chaos on the battlefield.
FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
Honestly, that whole disabling KB thing would completely be abused and I have to agree with Doctor Roswell, I can see that being demanded constantly from teams as well. Plus KB actually serves a balancing purpose. It impacts the survivability of toons in many situations, and is part and parcel of the whole player/team dynamic. Much thought goes into these powersets by the designers. It shouldn't arbitrarily be dismissed just because someone doesn't like it. And sure we've all been annoyed by KB at times, but it's no worse than those occasional tanks that constantly taunt the enemies away from the other melee toons who would rather they didn't.
I think you're overestimating the peer pressure - if people aren't routinely kicked from teams for using powers with knockback, I very much doubt that they'd be kicked later either. Furthermore, knockback is a tool, and it can be used well or poorly - energy torrent can give a pressed defender some breathing space, but it will also split a group of enemies. This applies especially to powers with a "chance-to" approach to knockback, including the ones bundled with damage. They can also interfere with their users as well, because a group scattered by knockback is that much harder to AoE for them as well as their teammates, which is the core issue of nearly all complaints about KB to begin with. It has its time, and its place, but not all of them all the time.
I can deal with a bit of chaos on the battlefield. Hell, most of the time I cause it. But just because we can doesn't mean we should have to, especially if we can invest the attention to prevent it.
Nobody is getting kicked for using knockback powers now because there's no alternative. What's being proposed is to provide an alternative. I've been around MMOs long enough to know that no matter how special, unique and open minded the game's community thinks they are...they aren't. What Doctor Roswell says is spot on. The devs add this to the game and it will become a standard for teaming no matter how many people come into this thread and say they would never kick anyone for not using it. This is already a mildly divisive subject, let's just leave it as mildly divisive instead of throwing fuel on the fire.
Myself, I would leave my KB on no matter how many teams I got kicked out of.
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And I think you are naive if you honestly think there aren't a lot of build nazi's in this game.
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Originally Posted by Quinch
I think you're overestimating the peer pressure - if people aren't routinely kicked from teams for using powers with knockback, I very much doubt that they'd be kicked later either.
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A pair of return questions - if the kicked players started summarily boycotting kicking team leaders {thank you, note system} on all their characters, don't you think that sentiment would quickly be blunted? Finding and waiting for a player who would say "oh hey, you're that guy who kicked me for not good reason" would waste the kicker's time and effort as well, and that sort of appeal to self-interest tends to get a person's attention quickly.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
And I think you are naive if you honestly think there aren't a lot of build nazi's in this game.
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And on the more principle-oriented side, does that mean that the influence of build nazis, however many there may be, should dictate game development?
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In answer to your first question, the note system is great and all, and I use it like crazy myself, but outside of forum regulars, I doubt most players are even aware of it... and most of the ones that are probably don't make regular use of it. And chances are, that second part wouldn't change much even if the first part did. Which dovetails nicely into my answer to your second question.|
Originally Posted by Quinch
A pair of return questions - if the kicked players started summarily boycotting kicking team leaders {thank you, note system} on all their characters, don't you think that sentiment would quickly be blunted? Finding and waiting for a player who would say "oh hey, you're that guy who kicked me for not good reason" would waste the kicker's time and effort as well, and that sort of appeal to self-interest tends to get a person's attention quickly.
And on the more principle-oriented side, does that mean that the influence of build nazis, however many there may be, should dictate game development? |
Reality should dictate game development, at least as much as other factors like the dev team's vision or the players' desires. The way people would use a feature has to take precedence over the way people should use a feature. Idealism is a wonderful thing, but it can only take you so far before realism has to step in, slap it across the face, and yell, "snap out of it!"
"In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is."
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Originally Posted by Frosty_Femme
Myself, I would leave my KB on no matter how many teams I got kicked out of.
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FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
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Originally Posted by Quinch
A pair of return questions - if the kicked players started summarily boycotting kicking team leaders {thank you, note system} on all their characters, don't you think that sentiment would quickly be blunted? Finding and waiting for a player who would say "oh hey, you're that guy who kicked me for not good reason" would waste the kicker's time and effort as well, and that sort of appeal to self-interest tends to get a person's attention quickly.
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I do boycott build nazi's (with 1 star and notes) and quit teams whenever I encounter them. The trouble is most people don't either because they don't know about it, or they think it's too much effort to bother with it.
You can't force people to educate themselves on game mechanics, or use the tools at their disposal.
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| And on the more principle-oriented side, does that mean that the influence of build nazis, however many there may be, should dictate game development? |
Yes. The devs have already altered game mechanics based on the behavior of individuals abusing game features. Why would they stop now?
1. RMT spam motivated the devs to implement draconian restrictions on chat channels, SG membership, Email access, etc.
2. AE exploit abusers motivated the devs to implement changes to the Mission Architect.
My biggest problem with knockback is that most powers with it only have a CHANCE to knockback. Knockback that is reliable is useful for deliberately repositioning enemies. Random knockback is what can be frustrating (though I don't mind it all that much myself.)
_________
@Inquisitor
I like the idea for the power, and have suggested something similar, the salient difference being that rather than debuff Knockback intensity, it would place an artificial cap on Knockback so that no matter how much KB is buffed by secondary effects (or a target suffers increased effect from KB, meaning that Clockwork take KB from knockdown), the KB effect is capped at .75 or so, ensuring that if the toggle is active, that you never get KB, but still get Knockdown. This way you continue to receive the most important benefits of KB (which are balanced into the effectiveness of the powers) without ticking off the tank who has to chase them around like some Keystone Kop.
Dear NCsoft, if you go through with this shutdown you've guaranteed you'll not see another dime from me on any project you put out, ever.
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^ This, really, is the root of it all.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Morbid
My biggest problem with knockback is that most powers with it only have a CHANCE to knockback. Knockback that is reliable is useful for deliberately repositioning enemies. Random knockback is what can be frustrating (though I don't mind it all that much myself.)
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Powers that I can guarantee to knock stuff back? Great! I can, and will, use them. Much like how I used to use the old Cobra Strike from MA with it's guaranteed stun to keep bothersome LTs at bay (although giving me even more damage made me happy)
But the 'miiiiight, maybe kinda sorta KB' is just a faff, a hassle, and an annoyance.
That said? /Unsigned to the OP suggestion. For the following reasons;
1) This has been brought up, and put down again, before.
2) Now, as then, it seems like something that will enforce people use it, and those who actually, le gasp, enjoy knockback will become some sort of pariah folk. NOT the point of this game.
3) Super Heroes. No, really, just Super Heroes
4) Most importantly; coding time. Standard code rant applies, I believe.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Only thing I agree with in this whole thing is the "Chance of knockback'" randomness being a problem. Make it reliable and predictable.
The next step from *that* is that once it IS reliable, people will then need to learn to use it properly. Then again, they'll be able to do that since they know it'll happen. (And if it means toning down, for instance, the first two powers in Energy blast - which are, after all, the least powerful and thus would hit less hard, therefore having knock*down* make sense,) well, it can be decided then.
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If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
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Biggest problem here is that KB users are already pariahs. Being "forced" to use a "Suspend KB" power in order to play on a team would still leave us a choice of whether we wanted to do that to get on a team, rather than having to listen to "Oh you're an Energy blaster (or PB)... I don't team with... blah, blah, blah, not my type, blah blah, it's not me it's you, blah, blah, if you wanted to play a blaster why didn't you just roll a Fire/* like anyone who's not a crazy person?"|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
2) Now, as then, it seems like something that will enforce people use it, and those who actually, le gasp, enjoy knockback will become some sort of pariah folk. NOT the point of this game.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
3) Super Heroes. No, really, just Super Heroes
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Dear NCsoft, if you go through with this shutdown you've guaranteed you'll not see another dime from me on any project you put out, ever.
http://xx-starhammer-xx.deviantart.com/
/sign
I already avoid teaming with kbers this would just give me oppurtunities to team with them sans agravation
As for the superheroes argument it falls flat because outside of this game kb is an additional dmg dynamic all it does in this game is cause you to chase enemies so that you can continu to hit them.
Completely out of context, but I've always wished that enemies wouldn't get up immediately after being knocked down, but would instead be delayed for a time proportionate to how far they were knocked back, or at the very least proportionate to the magnitude of this knockback. So if you just knock an enemy down, he'll get right back up. Punt that enemy 100 feet back and he might need a minute.
A VERY long time ago, Devouring Earth creatures used to do something akin to this. Once knocked down, walking trees would spend around 5 seconds on the ground before they even attempted to get up. All this time, you could wail on them, but they couldn't attack you in return. This made knockback ESPECIALLY potent against them. Obviously, this was fixed soon after I discovered it, but the idea still lingers in my mind.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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To combine suggestions from the last two posts -- what about assigning "falling" damage to enemies based on knockback distance?
FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
I suggest that team leaders have an option added to their row of mission buttons. The option would be Knockdown. If selected, all chance-for-knockback powers in the team/mission become chance-for-knockdown instead.
This way, melee AND/OR knockback toons can petition the leader to shut off the excessive knockback if they are being annoyed/being annoying, and nobody need be kicked. Players that are good at using knockback get to use it, and players that are not good at using knockback have an incentive to get better.
I don't know if this would be technically feasable, but I suspect it would be sweet.
I've played all sorts of toons for years, but never an energy blaster and never a storm summoner. They might be a blast to solo, but I wouldn't inflict them on any team.
I'm seriously considering dropping my Peacebringers. Running them without the powers that do knockback would be about as effective as building a Mastermind without any pets, and when you add in the Voids and Quanta... I have a hard time getting them invited.
I play on Freedom...which tends to be a very min/max server and have never been kicked from a team for using KB.... I swear I have no idea what server these build nazis are on or why people get kicked as much as they do but.. eeek.
I have toons with KB and on one of them I will be using the new KD proc...not because people complain but because KD will allow me to be more effective with Explosive Arrow (TA/Arch Defender) and still always keeping baddies in all my debuffs
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I love you, I Burnt the Toast!
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Just to throw this out;
"Restrained"; an inherent power at Lv2.
Toggle, no endurance cost, recharge or animation time.
Said power debuffs the player's knockback through the floor.
Thus, player has control whether he wants his attacks to KB/KD/KU or not.
If said player wants some attacks to KB but not others, they will need to turn it on and off on the fly. No handholding.
Thoughts?