Feb 1 Coffetalk highlights
actually I was under the impression that it's really more Storage and DB issues. the 2B figure. the about as large as they can get using a signed 32-bit Integer (sgned as in Positive/negative)
On Justice
Global @Desi Nova Twitter: @desi_nova Steam: Desi_nova. I don't do Xbox or PS3
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Every time I hear this excuse I want to punch someone. Doubly so when it's in regard to a storyline.They fall into the crazy tech from yesteryear, temperamental to implement. They would make for an excellent format for trials. Sean was looking into reverse engineering how they were done, because the original designers are not with the company. |
EDIT: Derp derp derp. Thank you for posting this, Agent White.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
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Ahh, that grand idea of institutional memory.
Every time I hear this excuse I want to punch someone. Doubly so when it's in regard to a storyline.
EDIT: Derp derp derp. Thank you for posting this, Agent White. |
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If you've played it, there are the safe areas illuminated by the dream doctor beacons, they look cool, but originally their visual intention was different. They were big domes of glowing light & something similar to the Shadowed Paths in First Ward. The idea isn't lost, something similar might crop up in the future. |
Suggestions:
Super Packs Done Right
Influence Sink: IO Level Mod/Recrafting
Random Merit Rolls: Scale cost by Toon Level
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OK, I'm totally coming now. But only if I can get everyone to join me in singing Don't Stop Believin'.
There may not be an activity the night before, it will be a single day but the panel track will be longer and they'll bring back the karaoke. Zwill's feminine side might be a soulful black woman. Positron will be singing Neil Diamond.
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DiB functions as a continuation, helping folks level, etc. Easy to get burnt out on the sewer trial. Zwill plays about up to 15. Others play it up to 22, where you can get SOs. |
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Sean was looking into reverse engineering how they were done, because the original designers are not with the company. |
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
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Speaking from an outside (non designer) looking in, I often times hear designers bemoaning the lack of documentation when working on older content, and this is not isolated to CoH/Paragon.
You never realize just how easy it is to get away with lacking documentation, up until you actually start dealing with developers who have no clue how to document. I can sympathize.
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My impression is that in the early days of MMO development, it was fairly Wild West. Designers were producing content and systems, and throwing things against the "wall" to see what stuck. They were creative and innovative, but because they didn't have an extreme amount of software development background, they didn't understand the value of documentation.
In more recent years, this philosophy and practice has certainly changed and most studios have a very rigorous documentation policy and process, but that doesn't change the fact that often times we're working with systems that require significant amounts of time to reverse engineer.
Andy Belford
Community Manager
Paragon Studios
You're telling me. Right now at my company, the previous designer (whom I replaced) left NO editable files for repeat event print ads. That's right, out of the 9 things I have to configure for printing this month, I have NO InDesign files to edit.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
![](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/HellkatPredator/2012%20Livestreams/ChompAeon.gif)
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Slight correction here. The name of the venue is Dinah's Garden Hotel. Since they haven't given us a booking code, I want to wait until we are given that before I book my room.
Freedom player Summit coming up on April 28th. It's very likely to be at the same venue as last year, the Dyna Garden Hotel. Ticket sales will go up soon, just not yet. You should be able to book a room for the event though. There will be a large room for the panels, and there will be a single panel trac this time. Everybody will see all the panels, it'll all be uStreamed. This year it will be a more interactive format. Beaststyle will be in front of the camera this time. Building upon the build-a-costume-set workshop, they're going to have more audience participation panels. There may not be an activity the night before, it will be a single day but the panel track will be longer and they'll bring back the karaoke. Zwill's feminine side might be a soulful black woman. Positron will be singing Neil Diamond. |
This time, I'm going to ask for something near the front of the hotel and not on the top floor. I'm also going to ask that it be a room with a view to the Koi ponds.
I also need to find out who the Karaoke DJ will be and how to contact them ahead of time. I have questions for them.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
Ah, thank you. I'd never seen the name of the hotel, so I could only guess of their pronunciation of it.
Thanks for the notes
Leader of The LEGION/Fallen LEGION on the Liberty server!
SSBB FC: 2062-8881-3944
MKW FC: 4167-4891-5991
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If not for Vidiot maps I would truly hate these mazes.
Q: Is the Maze in Perez Park/Eden as annoying to devs as to players?
YES. Still lost in Perez Park. Alleviated with alternate travel forms. Perez Park kept Zwill from rolling alts when he started playing. At launch you had to street sweep, Zwill couldn't stand doing the mission that sends you into the Perez Maze (Fortuneteller). It was a hallmark of the older MMOs, the sense that you made through something once but were not sure how you did it. |
I would love to see them gone though and I love how the dev team simply don't redo zones for the sake of redoing them. They always have a story behind it.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
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From a story design standpoint I really tend to agree with you.
Every time I hear this excuse I want to punch someone. Doubly so when it's in regard to a storyline.
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On the other hand, from a software development standpoint ... not so much. Sometimes someone's solution to a problem is about clear as mud and if they didn't document their code adequately it can take a lot of effort to figure out just what the heck it's doing.
MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812
![](http://avatars.cohtitan.com/signatures/cgt/u1549.png)
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You're telling me. Right now at my company, the previous designer (whom I replaced) left NO editable files for repeat event print ads. That's right, out of the 9 things I have to configure for printing this month, I have NO InDesign files to edit.
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![Confused](images/smilies/confused.gif)
WOW . . . coming from a Print Production background (during the Quark to InDesign changeup at the company I was working at at the time) that's a amount of FAIL that can't be described.
I hope you're good at reverse engineering stuff.
![Frown](images/smilies/frown.gif)
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
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yeah and we're talking about (in this specific instance) things as complicated as mayhems/safeguards. Now imagine the base editor. OY!!!
From a story design standpoint I really tend to agree with you.
On the other hand, from a software development standpoint ... not so much. Sometimes someone's solution to a problem is about clear as mud and if they didn't document their code adequately it can take a lot of effort to figure out just what the heck it's doing. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
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You never realize just how easy it is to get away with lacking documentation, up until you actually start dealing with developers who have no clue how to document. I can sympathize.
|
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Speaking from an outside (non designer) looking in, I often times hear designers bemoaning the lack of documentation when working on older content, and this is not isolated to CoH/Paragon.
My impression is that in the early days of MMO development, it was fairly Wild West. Designers were producing content and systems, and throwing things against the "wall" to see what stuck. They were creative and innovative, but because they didn't have an extreme amount of software development background, they didn't understand the value of documentation. In more recent years, this philosophy and practice has certainly changed and most studios have a very rigorous documentation policy and process, but that doesn't change the fact that often times we're working with systems that require significant amounts of time to reverse engineer. |
THIS is why I've been trying to get into the industry! Tech writer/editor! TWENTY YEARS' EXPERIENCE!
Paragon Studios NEEDS me!
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
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It wasn't much better in other industries back then, either. One of my projects around 2002 was to modify a product that had just been rewritten from scratch for Y2k compliance a few years previously. It was over 13,000 files with a rather counterintuitive folder structure that led us to believe that MC Escher had a role in its initial framework.
Speaking from an outside (non designer) looking in, I often times hear designers bemoaning the lack of documentation when working on older content, and this is not isolated to CoH/Paragon.
My impression is that in the early days of MMO development, it was fairly Wild West. Designers were producing content and systems, and throwing things against the "wall" to see what stuck. They were creative and innovative, but because they didn't have an extreme amount of software development background, they didn't understand the value of documentation. In more recent years, this philosophy and practice has certainly changed and most studios have a very rigorous documentation policy and process, but that doesn't change the fact that often times we're working with systems that require significant amounts of time to reverse engineer. |
The design document was three sheets of paper that didn't say much more than "make it look like it currently looks, work like it currently works, but not break" in abridged corporate-speak.
A bit flabbergasted, my team asked if there was anything else we could reference. With great pride, they showed us their "extensive documentation library" - a very long closet with binders upon binders upon binders. Someone's idea of "extensive documentation" was a complete printout of the codebase.
EVERY
SINGLE
FILE.
Fortunately, standards have changed now and I've moved on to a better calibre of employer. I'm confident that if our current VP of product development was given a three-page Word document as a project's design document he'd reject it immediately. He prefers Powerpoint.
![](https://sites.google.com/site/chasyork/_/rsrc/1286288783877/home/chasebanner.jpg)
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I'm a bit of an InDesign junkie so replicating the documents in question hasn't been the problem. The problem is the time I'm spending on it (both reconstructing the originals and cleaning up after the last guy), piled atop the task of accurately billing clients for it (e.g. billing the client for 2 out of 5 hours of work, since 3 hours were spent fixing the problem the last designer left behind).
![]() WOW . . . coming from a Print Production background (during the Quark to InDesign changeup at the company I was working at at the time) that's a amount of FAIL that can't be described. I hope you're good at reverse engineering stuff. ![]() |
Whew. Run-on sentence, sort of.
I'm sorry.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
![](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v485/HellkatPredator/2012%20Livestreams/ChompAeon.gif)
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Frustrating. Is this why they still haven't been added to Ouroboros, and is this why, all these years later, we're still fighting Tsoo in the Steel Canyon mayhem and safeguard when there are no Tsoo in Steel Canyon?
Q: Mayhem/Safeguard missions in trial form?
It's a tricky question. They fall into the crazy tech from yesteryear, temperamental to implement. They would make for an excellent format for trials. Sean was looking into reverse engineering how they were done, because the original designers are not with the company. Similar ideas crop up in brainstorming for future issues, because a lot of designers like the mayhem/safeguard missions. They may not get to add to the core set of them, but similar style content and objectives could show up moving forward. |
The Mayhems are still some of the best solo content the game has; I remember leveling one character almost all the way from 5 to 50 doing nothing but stealthing newspapers so I could grind mayhems, and they're still fun even after doing that. When I went back to playing heros occasionally, I catch myself grinning when I find myself in a neighborhood whose layout I know only because it was featured in a mayhem mission. So it distresses me to know that they're so funkily implemented and so poorly documented that you're afraid to touch them.
There are plenty of Tsoo in Steel Canyon. Check around the area of the Icon. Serge even sends you on a mish to clear the Tsoo from around his business to get your second costume slot.
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Ah. That is a shame. I was trained in accounting first, math second, and Art third. I am very systematic, even in my chaos. I will try to keep this in mind when I start blathering about "do this now!"
Speaking from an outside (non designer) looking in, I often times hear designers bemoaning the lack of documentation when working on older content, and this is not isolated to CoH/Paragon.
My impression is that in the early days of MMO development, it was fairly Wild West. Designers were producing content and systems, and throwing things against the "wall" to see what stuck. They were creative and innovative, but because they didn't have an extreme amount of software development background, they didn't understand the value of documentation. In more recent years, this philosophy and practice has certainly changed and most studios have a very rigorous documentation policy and process, but that doesn't change the fact that often times we're working with systems that require significant amounts of time to reverse engineer. |
But seriously, can you at least throw the banks into Ouroboros. Its a pain to grab those badges any other way.
As long as they are semi-optional, I actually like the fact that some areas are mazes. Exploring can be enjoyable on its own. Granted, there should be some doors that easy to reach for those who don't like it but add some additional options for those with an exploring mindset.
I also don't get the concept of the Hollows seeming like a weird spot in the level range.
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As Xzero45 said, there are plenty of Tsoo in Steel Canyon.
Frustrating. Is this why they still haven't been added to Ouroboros, and is this why, all these years later, we're still fighting Tsoo in the Steel Canyon mayhem and safeguard when there are no Tsoo in Steel Canyon?
The Mayhems are still some of the best solo content the game has; I remember leveling one character almost all the way from 5 to 50 doing nothing but stealthing newspapers so I could grind mayhems, and they're still fun even after doing that. When I went back to playing heros occasionally, I catch myself grinning when I find myself in a neighborhood whose layout I know only because it was featured in a mayhem mission. So it distresses me to know that they're so funkily implemented and so poorly documented that you're afraid to touch them. |
Along with the ones near Icon that was mentioned earlier, there are also a fair amount along the Southeast portion of the map from around the Hospital and Magic store up to the Northeast portion all the way to the Brickstown entrance.
If you aren't finding Tsoo in Steel Canyon, you aren't trying.
EDIT: Bah, directions were off. Southwest and Northwest were what I meant to say, not Southeast and Northeast. That's what I get for posting while trying to leave for supper. Too distracted to get the directions right. Then again, this is coming from the person that routinely gets lost with a GPS.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
Yup, no VK write up this week. Ran out of pain meds and am waiting for the pharmacy to call my doctor.
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Until I see something that states to the contrary, going to assume VK is right
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The same way there are no Tsoo in Steel Canyon when they can be found everywhere in Steel Canyon. Although the larger groups are mostly to the central North and Northwest areas.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Didn't see a post by VK, so here are my abridged notes after watching the recording. I kinda half transcribed stuff and cut out a lot of tangents so, be forgiving XD
He also tarnishes his soul pitching some marketing schtick, then admits he likes torturing his guests by ambushing them.
First, Zwillinger reveals the non-secret he is not running off a script
he mentions exciting news, a new assistant community manager is coming on board. He'll be introduced soon.
Spring Fling goes from Feb 8 to 27 as announced. Feb 27 is Zwill's tot's b-day. Both sons will be 5 years old this year.
Tangent about the ridiculous process to get his kids enrolled into the Cali. school system.
Game stuff! Fan art battle going on. They won't promote it as the FArt battle. Nor as the F-Art battle. But he was impressed with the first round of submissions and encourages other artists to check it out.
Freedom player Summit coming up on April 28th. It's very likely to be at the same venue as last year, the Dyna Garden Hotel. Ticket sales will go up soon, just not yet. You should be able to book a room for the event though. There will be a large room for the panels, and there will be a single panel trac this time. Everybody will see all the panels, it'll all be uStreamed. This year it will be a more interactive format. Beaststyle will be in front of the camera this time. Building upon the build-a-costume-set workshop, they're going to have more audience participation panels. There may not be an activity the night before, it will be a single day but the panel track will be longer and they'll bring back the karaoke. Zwill's feminine side might be a soulful black woman. Positron will be singing Neil Diamond.
Bacon Roses. Blueberry pancake cupcake, with maple frosting and crumbled bacon bits.
I22 beta stuff. Drowning in Blood Trial. Main thing, they wanted to make a whole trial that was a follow up to the sewer trial. They consider the sewer trial a success for its high frequency and fun (a high adoption rate). DiB functions as a continuation, helping folks level, etc. Easy to get burnt out on the sewer trial. Zwill plays about up to 15. Others play it up to 22, where you can get SOs.
Raise the influence cap: brought up before, it's being looked at, but there's other repercussions such as affecting the economy (soft cap on what can be charged, for ex.) jokes about the economy.
Back to drowning in blood. People are riding sewer to 50 and they want to add something else on. DiB deals with the Shivans as a precursor to the Coming Storm and involves both the old shivans and new shivans. Set out to avoid the clash with a situation like old/new klingons. Star Trek tangent. They wanted to explain the influence of the coming storm on the shivans and their history and current nature, as a bit of a send off to the blood bay shivans. Happiest with there actually being a separate trial and different options. Objections are largely the same but heroes/villains have different sides. So much content hinges on story, trials are meant to be fast, fun and simplistic, didn't want to get crazy with stories like cut scenes, etc. But for players that want to slow down, you can talk to different people and experience it differently. Goal for drowning in blood was to provide both a lot and as little story. Stuff you can kill through dialogue trees. Villainside you can ally or go against arachnos, some murdering (DEFEATING). Easter eggs: there's a lot of references to Aliens, some Smurfs (making fun of the old shivans color) Creepy body snatcher with a funny name. The beta feedback on the trial has been sparse.
Dark Astoria updates. Really closely watching the rewards and pace of rewards. Taking in a lot of feedback, encouraging folks to test and leave feedback.
Questions!
Guest is Cort Carney - Think Tank, dev involved with world design. He doesn't do mission content, mostly the city zone stuff, spawns, atmosphere, etc. If it went into the Dark Astoria main city section, he worked on it.
Q: when will some of the old hazard zones get some love? Ex. revamping boomtown, perez park.
There's an interesting grab bag, but he can't say much about too many plans for the future. Think Tank spends time playing the game on a nightly basis, has some concerns about some of the low level content stuff, ex. the Hollows. Each designer has their own stuff they want to see revamped, improved, streamlined, etc but that has to be balanced with new content and higher level play. As far as old hazard zones, they have new tech to implement in places, new things to experiment with.
The devs have the freedom to walk in at the start of the day and be irritated from something the night before, wanting to fix it, and folks will find time to take a look at it. With the old hazard zones, he's not sure what the scale they'd be looking for, for instance how many Atlas park revamps will be seen vs Dark Astora style revamps. There are definite quality of life changes to be made to areas, like the Hollows. The zone doesn't sit right in terms of when you get sent there, it's an awkward place to transition to. A lot of old content can be seen as the 'low hanging fruit' of the game. One of the factoids someone brought up, the game has in the neighborhood of just 10 zones for a 20 level range.
Q: Any ideas for DA that couldn't make it in?
If you've played it, there are the safe areas illuminated by the dream doctor beacons, they look cool, but originally their visual intention was different. They were big domes of glowing light & something similar to the Shadowed Paths in First Ward. The idea isn't lost, something similar might crop up in the future.
Q: Do you know if the Shivans in the new trial count toward the man/woman in black badge?
Dunno
Q: Mayhem/Safeguard missions in trial form?
It's a tricky question. They fall into the crazy tech from yesteryear, temperamental to implement. They would make for an excellent format for trials. Sean was looking into reverse engineering how they were done, because the original designers are not with the company. Similar ideas crop up in brainstorming for future issues, because a lot of designers like the mayhem/safeguard missions. They may not get to add to the core set of them, but similar style content and objectives could show up moving forward.
Q: Is the Maze in Perez Park/Eden as annoying to devs as to players?
YES. Still lost in Perez Park. Alleviated with alternate travel forms. Perez Park kept Zwill from rolling alts when he started playing. At launch you had to street sweep, Zwill couldn't stand doing the mission that sends you into the Perez Maze (Fortuneteller). It was a hallmark of the older MMOs, the sense that you made through something once but were not sure how you did it.
Something looked at in older MMOs, things like grouping and what builds community. Thinking about stuff you had to do in EQ you had to do just to get something accomplished, it had a high bar of inconvenience.
Q: Are you looking at a city design approach similar to what happened to Praetoria's main city?
Praetoria was designed before Think Tank came on board. The design process & pipeline that was created for First Ward has become the template for how ideas are organized and documents, but it's 'non player facing' stuff. The scale of Praetoria is massive for the work they've done, the choices moving forward are more for doing things quickly and efficiently, it's hard to do things that take months and months. It will be a long time before another something the sheer size of First Ward comes along. That is not to say there aren't 'large real estate chunks' coming in. First ward was a long time in development.
Praetoria felt more like a city than the actual city zones. It was a culmination of a lot of lessons learned when it came to lay out the city. The things Think Tank likes about Praetoria is its attention to signature points of interest, things you see to give you a sense of location. Old zones have a lot of mirrored stuff where you just have canyons of the same building. But Praetoria may be overly unique, too much work to put so much detail in when everything just becomes so much background.
Zwill played another MMO for a while and looked at the actual environments, the vistas were impressive, but it blends into the background after so long. The game doesn't give you much reason to look at the vistas. Sight gets drawn primarily to combat spaces and then there are periods of dead space where it's boring. There were certain areas where they created gorgeous buildings but it was only at the edge of the zone and out of the way, so you only saw it from one vantage.
Think Tank loves the Magisterium building. Making landmarks is good for making distinction, using core details to really stand out, while filling in things around them with homogenous stuff. It ties space together in an important way.
World design having a land mark that ties the zone together sets the tone for a zone. Brickstown is homogenous, but has the ziggurat dominating and omnipresent and you can see it from multiple points in the zone. In all talk of Praetoria, you get a lot of clean lines, no gross back alley sections like you have in the other older sections (Except Neutropolis). The Devs like contrasting those 2 styles together.
Blueberry pancake bacon cupcakes. <3