*spoilers* The Freedom Phalanx are incompetent!


Arctic_Princess

 

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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
At least with the Dark Astoria arcs, I have hope that they've figured out how to strike the right balance of exposition and action, scripting and straightforward fights, special maps and reskinned offices. Then again, the 1-20 Preatorian content also gets it right, so I fear the sparing use of special shinies may be due strictly to time constraints and if they could they'd make every arc a jumble of complex scripting, backtracking, and walls of text.
I think the key to balancing exposition with gameplay is to make the exposition as optional as possible on the receiving end, sort of in line with your comment of running it solo for the story and then speed-running it with buddies later.

Ultimately, there should be some mechanic for skipping cutscenes and other exposition for those who are not interested. But the exposition really needs to be there and available! I have read a half a dozen explanations as to why Statesman walked into The Obvious Trap. Whether or not I like the explanations, they are still far better than the reason officially given by the Devs which was... well, they didn't GIVE any explanation; Statesman just did it.

For the sake of decent story-telling, which is what the "Who Will Die?" format suggests, there has to be decent exposition and pacing. If multiple replay value is desired, make that optional. But as it metaphorically stands, Pearl Harbor is bombed, the Marines appear on Guadalcanal, MacArthur returns to the Phillipines and Horoshima and Nagasaki are bombed and the surrender is signed, without any enlightenment on intervening thoughts or events. Mysterious baddie, Synapse has a scare, Numina has a scare, Alexis is dead, Manticore is a tool, Psyche is a rookie, Statesman is dead, ta-da.

If you do the Headlines Only style of story-telling, then even something like "Casablanca" or "The Princess Bride" will come off badly. Nobody cares what happens to cyphers.


"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"

"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post

It makes me feel sorry to say this, but the SSAs honestly come off a lot like The Last Airbender movie. They're almost all exposition trying to explain why things are happening and why we should care. Every character exists solely to deliver narrative and move the plot forward, every scene feels rushed, plot points are brought up and immediately resolved. And all of this because the movie tries to condense the entire first season of a show - 26 30-minute episodes - into a 90 minute movie while still hitting all the major points, having the full body of plot and replicating all the characters while stating their personalities and motivations in plain explanation.

The result is a hot mess that an uneducated viewer would be hopelessly lost in, and one familiar with the source material will be left to backtrack and piece together why that was a good idea in the first place. You can't bring up plot points in the same scene where they become relevant. You need to establish these things. Obviously, establishing "these things" take screen time, and the SSAs have precious little of that. You can't just tell me a person is sad, angry or stricken with grief, ESPECIALLY if I don't actually see this person anywhere in the story which is telling me this. You need to give me some context, establish this person's emotions, give them screen time to develop. The SSAs feel like they're trying to retell a novel in the space of a newspaper ad.
I had to pick up on this in particular from this post (and I will respond to your reply to me in an earlier post, too) because I went and saw that movie because it was cheap or free or something.

I was curious to see how someone who had one brilliant idea in M. Night Shamaylan could handle a pretty straightforward narrative story, and the answer was....he couldn't.

I think that's a key point to note here; I think Doc Aeon is a funny and talented guy going on what I've seen of him in Ustream chats and he seems fairly knowledgeable about the City of....universe. However, I think he's been given an unenviable task by trying to put out the equivalent of a monthly comic book in-game with missions that all told take about an hour, span only three missions and are reliant on exposition, game mechanics and events PC's are unable to influence to move forward with.

When I take a step back and look at what I just wrote there, it strikes me that this is best off being in a comic book. The pace to get this out every month must be punishing, and it shows. Anyone who's ever read a good comic book knows that you need some time to build up steam, even if you open with a big event that gets you wondering.

And this has a parallel to the Last Airbender movie. Both universes have a lot of story ground to cover and you can't just 'jump in' and a) expect the reader/player to know the backstory unless you've presented it to them elsewhere or are going to; and b) are dealing with a lot of characters who you may want to introduce, which means introducing not only them but their powers, their personalities, and so on.

This is distinctly lacking in both works to me, and unfortunately, I feel the bottom line is for making a buck. In our game's case, this is meant to be for the new player coming in. 'Hey, don't you feel special? This storyline is all about you!'

But this is a self-defeating goal. It creates a story and universe in which you no longer become invested for two reasons. The first being that you have no point of reference or opportunity to learn about the characters about whom you're supposed to become invested in the fate of and secondly, what little you do learn presents a group of individuals that, unless you are a masochist, you would want nothing to do with either as a character nor a player.

This is characterisation wrought with the broadest brushstrokes in the least amount of time, and even using cutscene technology the Dev team themselves say is a pain in the rear!

There is a continuing and abiding sense of anxiousness I sense from the creative team, especially since Freedom launched. Content must be here now. It must satisfy the player now. They must have it now.

I think when that mentality is in play, that you feel you need to produce all the time in order to compete, the quality suffers. There was even a tacit admission from Zwillinger and Positron last week that if they didn't feel they could keep the pace, the market may only have new items once every two weeks.

And to me, that is reasonable. It is a crushing, relentless pace to have things now every week. And Paragon Studios to me cultivated a reputation for quality over time, not quantity under time.

If the studio themselves do not realize this, it will come back to bite them heavily. I think with the 'vision' of needing Trials to a supposed 'endgame' position, that is already happening, because it's creating an unnecessary division in the playerbase which is already forcing content splits. Stepping back I think, on all fronts, and looking honestly at what's going on would help a lot here.



S.


Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse

 

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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
Whatever happened to the bad guy gloating about his evil plan while you fight him, then swearing vengeance as he drops?
I've never understood how that whole 'exposition in intense melee combat' stuff works in any comic book universe.


61866 - A Series of Unfortunate Kidnappings - More than a coincidence?
2260 - The Burning of Hearts - A green-eyed monster holds the match.
379248 - The Spider Without Fangs - NEW - Some lessons learned (more or less.)

 

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Blame Stan Lee.



S.


Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse

 

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Originally Posted by SuperOz View Post
There is a continuing and abiding sense of anxiousness I sense from the creative team, especially since Freedom launched. Content must be here now. It must satisfy the player now. They must have it now.

I think when that mentality is in play, that you feel you need to produce all the time in order to compete, the quality suffers. There was even a tacit admission from Zwillinger and Positron last week that if they didn't feel they could keep the pace, the market may only have new items once every two weeks.

And to me, that is reasonable. It is a crushing, relentless pace to have things now every week. And Paragon Studios to me cultivated a reputation for quality over time, not quantity under time.

If the studio themselves do not realize this, it will come back to bite them heavily. I think with the 'vision' of needing Trials to a supposed 'endgame' position, that is already happening, because it's creating an unnecessary division in the playerbase which is already forcing content splits. Stepping back I think, on all fronts, and looking honestly at what's going on would help a lot here.
I whole-heartedly agree... I'd really like them to slow down the pace myself in exchange for more building around the story. I'd have liked to have seen a new 20-25 arc (or handful of them) involving stories with the Freedom Phalanx. Nothing flashy or fancy. No new maps. Maybe even retool stories already in game; like involve Sister Psyche looking to stop the Tsoo drug Rage that's hitting the streets. Have Positron help you learn more about the technology (or lack thereof) in the Clockwork, and accompany you to Phil's Garage. Add a special boss at the end to make it more dramatic. Same stories with a little tweak, and a bit more dialogue from the heroes at various points in missions. Take them up the levels. Have Synapse help you out and be your pal who has your back when you're labled a criminal by Crey's propoganda. Let him be there when you take down Countess Crey (he has a score to settle big-time). Plus, put Countess Crey in an office building. I don't care that the story takes her to a cave, I want to fight her in an office full of security.

Once you get a handful of these scattered around the level ranges, then introduce the "Who Will Die" SSA's. Of couse, like I said there... too little too late for that.

Howerver, I'm the patient sort. I'm happy to wait for quality content, and have never been in a rush to see the next issue, even if I'm exited about something in it. There are also those who look at all the new 1-20 content they just made for Freedom, and say "Yeah that's neat, but we want something NEW!"

/em headdesk

That's the balancing act. Not one I envy.

Oh, I do like the ideas about pumping up and promoting more clues and souvineers. Any time you get a clue in a story arc, it should light up like when your enhancements are full, or when you get an e-mail (where it blinks!) And how about having the Library in the Universities have 'history books' on the shelves that give information as well. If a player wants to stand in there for an hour or two just reading. How about a newsrack that has "current events" based on your level range? Heck, even cooler, how about the newsies in front of the trains telling you 'headlines' of stuff based on the zone you're in?

Again, I love exploration and immersion though. I have spent hours just wandering zones before to see the sights. I know I'm the exception though. They may not deem it worth the 'bang for the buck' in resources and time to invest in such things.

Still would love to see it though, and it wouldn't even have to be new tech, just menus with text boxes...


"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.

 

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Originally Posted by SuperOz View Post
And this has a parallel to the Last Airbender movie. Both universes have a lot of story ground to cover and you can't just 'jump in' and a) expect the reader/player to know the backstory unless you've presented it to them elsewhere or are going to; and b) are dealing with a lot of characters who you may want to introduce, which means introducing not only them but their powers, their personalities, and so on.
The problem with The Last Airbender is how it was approached. Shyamalan tried to take an entire animated series season and squeeze it into a feature-length movie. I don't care how good of a director you are, this simply can't happen, especially with something as rich in history and nuance as Avatar: The Last Airbender. The only way this could ever be filmable is if you either split it into many movies, or otherwise drop out a LOT of it, and I'm not sure either of those approaches could produce a decent result, anyway.

The thing is, the animated series was as good as it was (good enough to merit a theatrical release movie) in large part because of all the little things it provided. The humour, the characters, the outdoors camping, the developing relationships, the varied environments and cultures. What Shyamalan did was essentially toss out all the "little stuff" and just retell what comes down to a plot synopsis. And people who hadn't seen the cartoon were left wondering why they should care.

The parallels here, as you say, are evident. The SSAs suffer from being rushed, and I don't mean in terms of release schedule. They suffer from being rushed because they simply don't have nearly enough screen time to tell even half the story they're attempting to convey. The result is that all we ever get is essentially the titles of each episode and the plot synopsis of the story so we know what's going on, but there's never any meat on the bones, as it were. This is not a story, it's the summary of a story. To be honest, playing through the SSAs feels more like I'm reading the souvenir at the end of a story arc, rather than playing through the story arc itself.

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Originally Posted by SuperOz View Post
There was even a tacit admission from Zwillinger and Positron last week that if they didn't feel they could keep the pace, the market may only have new items once every two weeks.
O noes! I might spend a week without a filler pack littering the market! Whatever shall I do?

When Freedom was first announced, one of my biggest concerns was that they just couldn't keep up with the pace they were promising. People were telling me that "Oh, you're so negative! We'll get what we used to get for free AND MORE!" I asked people then as I ask people now: Where is the manpower for this going to come from? Sure, for a while they managed to feed off content they'd stockpiled to dole out in pieces, but then what? Who's going to make this new content who wasn't available to do it before? Are they hiring? Nope, not to any large extent. Are the existing developers going to be pulling double duty? Well, apparently.

But why is this even needed? Way back in 2006-2007 when the City of Heroes team was down to the "Surviving 15," we got almost no new content at all, and what we got was the bare essential low-hanging fruit. Sure, these were hard times, but you know what? When we got new stuff, it meant something. When we got new stuff, it represented a lot of work, a lot of time and a lot of dedication. It represented a lot of quality. Sure, the development team was limited, but what they put out, they worked their ***** off for.

These days... Not so much. I mean, I know the team is working harder than ever, but they're being pulled in so many directions and rushed so much that what they end up producing always comes off as rushed, unfinished and essentially a half-***** effort. A lot of the time, it IS just that. This pace of development does not seem sustainable to me. It WILL burn these guys out (and we aren't helping), and it just ends up producing unsatisfactory results.

If they would start adding new stuff to the Market only once every two weeks instead of every week, I'd applaud that. If they started releasing SSAs half a often but with twice the missions, I'd cheer for that. If they stopped rushing everything out the door to meet an unreasonable deadline and instead focused on delivering a solid, quality product, I would pay for that. Pay extra, pay double, pay whatever it takes. I want to support this studio, but NOT on mediocre performance like that, ESPECIALLY when it's their own self-imposed limitations that are causing it.

---

The SSAs had the potential to be amazing. The core story at the root of it all is very, very solid. It just wasn't told very well, and I honestly don't know who to blame any more. I do know, however, that if these stories were given more screen time to play out naturally, as opposed to coming off like the cliff notes of a much more interesting story, they would be a lot better overall.

Custom maps, custom enemies and complex scripts help make a good story into great gameplay. They do not, however, suffice to make a poor story into a good experience.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Lycantropus View Post
I whole-heartedly agree... I'd really like them to slow down the pace myself in exchange for more building around the story. I'd have liked to have seen a new 20-25 arc (or handful of them) involving stories with the Freedom Phalanx. Nothing flashy or fancy. No new maps. Maybe even retool stories already in game; like involve Sister Psyche looking to stop the Tsoo drug Rage that's hitting the streets. Have Positron help you learn more about the technology (or lack thereof) in the Clockwork, and accompany you to Phil's Garage. Add a special boss at the end to make it more dramatic. Same stories with a little tweak, and a bit more dialogue from the heroes at various points in missions. Take them up the levels. Have Synapse help you out and be your pal who has your back when you're labled a criminal by Crey's propoganda. Let him be there when you take down Countess Crey (he has a score to settle big-time). Plus, put Countess Crey in an office building. I don't care that the story takes her to a cave, I want to fight her in an office full of security.
Honestly, even something as simple as having us interact with these characters on a more regular basis would probably suffice. Think about, say, Doc Delilah. We spend all of three missions working with her, and all of one with her actually in it, but in those three missions, her unique personality traits really shine through. The way she speaks, the way she treats others, the way she reacts to Castillo hitting on her, even the way she fights are clues to the character behind the hat and the glasses.

The Freedom Phalanx really need this kind of exposure BEFORE we start killing them. Remember what the Crey scientist said about Executable #6? "It forms opinions and defends them passionately." I want to see the Freedom Phalanx form and express opinions. I want to see them make arguments in defence of those opinions. I want to see them take action in the name of those opinions. This is what informs me of WHO these people are.

The Spoony One asked this question about Twilight: "What do Edward and Bella actually like, aside from each other?" He couldn't find a single thing, aside from Edward apparently likes baseball? So what does Positron like? Does he maybe secretly wish he could have become a school teacher, instead? What does Sister Psyche like to do when she's off-duty? Does she maybe just enjoy knitting as something to do with her hands? And what of the Statesman? What does he do when he's NOT the Statesman? Or is that goofy mask glued to his flat face?

Here's my problem with killing the Statesman as some kind of shocking swerve - we have no reason to care about him. He's barely in the game that has his face plastered all over it like smilies stickers. Having his character killed is less like killing a person and more like knocking down a statue, because he as the personality and character of one. For all I know, anyway. Because the only way the game has treated the Statesman for YEARS is as an icon, an ideal, a "thing." That's all we know of him. Giving him and his brethren more humanity didn't have to mean killing or maiming them. It could have been as simple as exploring their characters. Because to be human doesn't just mean to have flaws. To be human means to have a personality, and I don't know what any of theirs are.

In simple terms, we should have been exposed to the Phalanx so we could learn their quirks and grow accustomed to both their strengths and their weaknesses. We need to KNOW these people before we can care whether they live or die. And it may seem like an ******* thing to say that we don't care about the fates of strangers, but the simple fact is that the easiest way to make us care is to get us to know these guys.

BEFORE you start killing them!


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Lycantropus View Post
And how about having the Library in the Universities have 'history books' on the shelves that give information as well. If a player wants to stand in there for an hour or two just reading. How about a newsrack that has "current events" based on your level range? Heck, even cooler, how about the newsies in front of the trains telling you 'headlines' of stuff based on the zone you're in?
I've been asking for that stuff for years, and they even have the tech to do it, as evidenced by the "secrets of the midnight club".

I eventually came to two realizations about it.

One is that the story bible is not some fleshed out history of Paragon City. It's mostly a lot of ideas that get fleshed out when someone looks through it and finds one or two of those ideas inspirational in some fashion. The current trend in the dev staff seems to be "That's someone else's world, I want to tell the story of MY world" so those ideas are even less important than they would be otherwise. There's little interest amongst the dev staff in fleshing out Rick Dakan's world.

More importantly, though, is the second realization: The devs are hoarders. They don't want us to have the lore at our fingertips. They want to keep it locked up in their vault and doled out a teaspoonful at a time. They already have a hard enough time trying to deal with the continuity problems that arise in the content of the past eight years. By keeping everything as opaque as possible, they leave themselves the freedom to define the world to be whatever they want or need it to be. Therefore, when they do something like kill Alexis Cole, they can basically ignore the vague implications in the past that she was some sort of high muckey-muck in Freedom Corps and instead paint her as a Paragon City version of Shirley Temple Black; a retired hero who "left all that behind" to do some real good in the world.

We're never going to get that history library for that reason.

On an unrelated note, I wonder if I'm the only player who read her POI and got a bit frowny at the idea that one of the premier heroes of the game (historically speaking) was described in a way that made it appear as if she considered her hero career to be something frivolous; casting MY hero's activities in a frivolous light as a result? Maybe that's just me.


 

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An idea I once had (but never posted or talked to anyone about it because I couldn't conceive of a possible way to implement it) was a kind of 'comic book' clue...basically they're like regular clues but with PICTURES!

Rather than basically paragraphs of text, there'd be panels with text bubbles either explaining that particular scene or dialog bubbles where characters 'say' what that dialog reads. But of course, the pictures would use in-game assets, so more like screenshots with subtitles. The problem I'd never gotten over to try and post was how one would get *your* character in those pre-created shots? There'd be no way to do that so I just tossed the idea.

Revisiting the idea, I think 'comic clues' that you can look at and read in [insert whatever window...just something wider than the clue scrolldown window] would be a good deal more engaging than regular clues, wouldn't be too hard to create and could be used in instances in the game to delve deeper into events or characters without needing to make a mission. Of course, the devs could just toss out more clues...but adding a few screenie-pics would retain more attention. If not that, out of game stories/comics posted along side the mission arcs would help cut down on needed dialog and/or explain better why certain events are occurring.


 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Revisiting the idea, I think 'comic clues' that you can look at and read in [insert whatever window...just something wider than the clue scrolldown window] would be a good deal more engaging than regular clues, wouldn't be too hard to create and could be used in instances in the game to delve deeper into events or characters without needing to make a mission. Of course, the devs could just toss out more clues...but adding a few screenie-pics would retain more attention. If not that, out of game stories/comics posted along side the mission arcs would help cut down on needed dialog and/or explain better why certain events are occurring.
How about a merge of an old idea of mine.

One thing I really would like to see is have the load screens be more than just a screenshot with some help text. One sugestion I had long ago was to have, like a 4-color comic pannel with a relevant image in it. Say you're going into a Freakshow mission. Have a comic pannel of Freakshow threatening someone, and in a yellow text box in the top left corner have the word "Meanwhile...". The idea was to just bring a more 'comic book' flair to the game.

Taking your idea, and mine, and putting them together; what if we had a series of pannels dealing with the Freedom Phalanx, Vanguard, Hero Corps, etc, and their stories (Villains would obviously have villain oriented pannels) giving snapshots of their history with a brief dialog box detailing the image/images presented. The tech exists for adding that with the new starter mission comic and the opening pannels to the SSA stuff. Now that might be pretty cool.

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Here's my problem with killing the Statesman as some kind of shocking swerve - we have no reason to care about him. He's barely in the game that has his face plastered all over it like smilies stickers. Having his character killed is less like killing a person and more like knocking down a statue, because he as the personality and character of one. For all I know, anyway. Because the only way the game has treated the Statesman for YEARS is as an icon, an ideal, a "thing." That's all we know of him. Giving him and his brethren more humanity didn't have to mean killing or maiming them. It could have been as simple as exploring their characters. Because to be human doesn't just mean to have flaws. To be human means to have a personality, and I don't know what any of theirs are.

In simple terms, we should have been exposed to the Phalanx so we could learn their quirks and grow accustomed to both their strengths and their weaknesses. We need to KNOW these people before we can care whether they live or die. And it may seem like an ******* thing to say that we don't care about the fates of strangers, but the simple fact is that the easiest way to make us care is to get us to know these guys.
Yaknow, if I can find the time, I think I'm going to scrap my 13-part villain story arc idea that leads from 1-50 and ends with a SF that has you getting the opportunity to rule the world, and instead make "Signature Character Mission arcs" where players can get to run with them.

I've read everything about them, the novels, the comics, the game... maybe I should put a little more work into it and put that to good use... I'll have to think about that...

Again, really good thread, Sam.


"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.

 

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Originally Posted by Lycantropus View Post
Yaknow, if I can find the time, I think I'm going to scrap my 13-part villain story arc idea that leads from 1-50 and ends with a SF that has you getting the opportunity to rule the world, and instead make "Signature Character Mission arcs" where players can get to run with them.

I've read everything about them, the novels, the comics, the game... maybe I should put a little more work into it and put that to good use... I'll have to think about that...

Again, really good thread, Sam.
People always tell me that I should give the Architect more credit and that there's some good stuff in there. If you do that, let me know. I'd honestly play it Any story that has interesting characters and exciting events (above and beyond just hitting things in the face) definitely gets my vote.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Lycantropus View Post
I whole-heartedly agree... I'd really like them to slow down the pace myself in exchange for more building around the story. I'd have liked to have seen a new 20-25 arc (or handful of them) involving stories with the Freedom Phalanx. Nothing flashy or fancy. No new maps. Maybe even retool stories already in game; like involve Sister Psyche looking to stop the Tsoo drug Rage that's hitting the streets. Have Positron help you learn more about the technology (or lack thereof) in the Clockwork, and accompany you to Phil's Garage. Add a special boss at the end to make it more dramatic. Same stories with a little tweak, and a bit more dialogue from the heroes at various points in missions. Take them up the levels. Have Synapse help you out and be your pal who has your back when you're labled a criminal by Crey's propoganda. Let him be there when you take down Countess Crey (he has a score to settle big-time). Plus, put Countess Crey in an office building. I don't care that the story takes her to a cave, I want to fight her in an office full of security.

Once you get a handful of these scattered around the level ranges, then introduce the "Who Will Die" SSA's. Of couse, like I said there... too little too late for that.

Howerver, I'm the patient sort. I'm happy to wait for quality content, and have never been in a rush to see the next issue, even if I'm exited about something in it. There are also those who look at all the new 1-20 content they just made for Freedom, and say "Yeah that's neat, but we want something NEW!"

/em headdesk

That's the balancing act. Not one I envy.

Oh, I do like the ideas about pumping up and promoting more clues and souvineers. Any time you get a clue in a story arc, it should light up like when your enhancements are full, or when you get an e-mail (where it blinks!) And how about having the Library in the Universities have 'history books' on the shelves that give information as well. If a player wants to stand in there for an hour or two just reading. How about a newsrack that has "current events" based on your level range? Heck, even cooler, how about the newsies in front of the trains telling you 'headlines' of stuff based on the zone you're in?

Again, I love exploration and immersion though. I have spent hours just wandering zones before to see the sights. I know I'm the exception though. They may not deem it worth the 'bang for the buck' in resources and time to invest in such things.

Still would love to see it though, and it wouldn't even have to be new tech, just menus with text boxes...

I've tended to note that by and large most MMO's post-2005 tend to take this approach, either by introducing you to major NPC's in a tutorial where you fight with them (say in for example Millenium City) or spreading the experience over a number of levels (say in a galaxy far, far away) where the missions help set the tone for you as well as give you periodic glimpses at the NPC's.

And I feel the opportunity is there; it kinda-sorta happens with the Shining Stars and revamped Atlas arcs, but you never really get to meet or talk to people. If anything, Manticore talks down to you and rarely credits you with figuring things out or lets you above the status of sidekick. No offence to the Dev team, but just because you say Manticore is our Batman, doesn't mean he is. Soften up the 'I'm the grizzled darkity-dark veteran' routine, guys. Even Batman knows to take it easy on the new kids on the block.

If you want us to eventually 'take over' from the signature heroes (a concept I still find ludicrous given that the game is way more static than its playerbase), let us be mentored or work with them first. Otherwise it seems less about passing the torch than it does giving the old guard their redundancy checks.

And call me crazy, but why can't the Phalanx achieve Incarnatedom? They don't have Silos's number or something?



S.


Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
The problem with The Last Airbender is how it was approached. Shyamalan tried to take an entire animated series season and squeeze it into a feature-length movie. I don't care how good of a director you are, this simply can't happen, especially with something as rich in history and nuance as Avatar: The Last Airbender. The only way this could ever be filmable is if you either split it into many movies, or otherwise drop out a LOT of it, and I'm not sure either of those approaches could produce a decent result, anyway.

The thing is, the animated series was as good as it was (good enough to merit a theatrical release movie) in large part because of all the little things it provided. The humour, the characters, the outdoors camping, the developing relationships, the varied environments and cultures. What Shyamalan did was essentially toss out all the "little stuff" and just retell what comes down to a plot synopsis. And people who hadn't seen the cartoon were left wondering why they should care.

The parallels here, as you say, are evident. The SSAs suffer from being rushed, and I don't mean in terms of release schedule. They suffer from being rushed because they simply don't have nearly enough screen time to tell even half the story they're attempting to convey. The result is that all we ever get is essentially the titles of each episode and the plot synopsis of the story so we know what's going on, but there's never any meat on the bones, as it were. This is not a story, it's the summary of a story. To be honest, playing through the SSAs feels more like I'm reading the souvenir at the end of a story arc, rather than playing through the story arc itself.
Totally in agreement with you there. I definitely came out of the movie utterly indifferent to what I'd just seen, aside from the occasional nice use of CGI effects. And the problem was that you're right; I got the absolute bare bones of the story with no investment in any of the characters whatsoever.

If I were coming into the game new (and I have to confess, even with the years I have in this game now), I don't really know the Phalanx. I wrote an AE arc about Statesman primarily because I wanted to help dispel some of the negative press he and the Dev associated with him and it took a lot of research to hang a story on and try and explain his behavior. And that bothers me a lot; most of what I found wasn't even in the game! It was from a lot of outside sources like novels (which I have never read) or timeline references. The NPC's are being done a disservice when the game doesn't support you getting to know them.



O noes! I might spend a week without a filler pack littering the market! Whatever shall I do?

When Freedom was first announced, one of my biggest concerns was that they just couldn't keep up with the pace they were promising. People were telling me that "Oh, you're so negative! We'll get what we used to get for free AND MORE!" I asked people then as I ask people now: Where is the manpower for this going to come from? Sure, for a while they managed to feed off content they'd stockpiled to dole out in pieces, but then what? Who's going to make this new content who wasn't available to do it before? Are they hiring? Nope, not to any large extent. Are the existing developers going to be pulling double duty? Well, apparently.

But why is this even needed? Way back in 2006-2007 when the City of Heroes team was down to the "Surviving 15," we got almost no new content at all, and what we got was the bare essential low-hanging fruit. Sure, these were hard times, but you know what? When we got new stuff, it meant something. When we got new stuff, it represented a lot of work, a lot of time and a lot of dedication. It represented a lot of quality. Sure, the development team was limited, but what they put out, they worked their ***** off for.

These days... Not so much. I mean, I know the team is working harder than ever, but they're being pulled in so many directions and rushed so much that what they end up producing always comes off as rushed, unfinished and essentially a half-***** effort. A lot of the time, it IS just that. This pace of development does not seem sustainable to me. It WILL burn these guys out (and we aren't helping), and it just ends up producing unsatisfactory results.

If they would start adding new stuff to the Market only once every two weeks instead of every week, I'd applaud that. If they started releasing SSAs half a often but with twice the missions, I'd cheer for that. If they stopped rushing everything out the door to meet an unreasonable deadline and instead focused on delivering a solid, quality product, I would pay for that. Pay extra, pay double, pay whatever it takes. I want to support this studio, but NOT on mediocre performance like that, ESPECIALLY when it's their own self-imposed limitations that are causing it. (Sorry, I seem to have no ability to do multiple quotes in a post. Any advice welcome! )

That's a hard truth I've had to come to realize in just solidifying opinions and feelings I've had about the game now for a bit, and it boils down to style over substance. I think the vast majority of games that are going down the free to play/premium subscriber/cash store route rely heavily on lots of goodies (the majority of which you'll never probably use that often) that catch your eye and make you go 'hey, I'll drop five bucks on that'. I was both bemused and amused to see a Frisbee temp power go up in the i22 Beta. Nothing special, you can just throw a frisbee to each other.

On the surface of that, it's a harmless vanity thing that you can enjoy with friends. The Chinese New Year pack is excellently designed, looks great. But even as I type the words, I realise I'm demonstrating the point. It's style over substance.

Even when substance is added, it's obfuscated against other things. I was led to understand for instance there was interesting story and lore in the Mother Mayhem trial. And I thought 'cool, people won't mind whilst I hang around, read text and get up to speed in the story'. The problem was there was so much text I effectively missed ten minutes of the Trial and whilst I was no fan of it, I felt badly enough that I wasn't contributing I wound up leaving. A couple of people even yelled at me for not catching up. The information was there, but those who were playing either weren't interested or didn't care. The dual 'carrot sticks' of Trial and game lore frankly do not work together. I have never ever been able to read the purple boxes of text with everything else going on, the story feels so modular that I could never hook into it, and then I find you need to do them in an order for the story to make sense! If that isn't railroading and herding in the worst senses of the word, I don't know what is.

A friend in my SG basically just copied and pasted all the info they got from them and I left it at that. I really honestly think story progression can't be the bait on which Trials are on the other end of the line. You definitely can't sell a system which by all anecdotal evidence most people are taking the easy road in and a small percentage (ala PvP) are participating in for the percieved challenge and rewards.

I have only ever wanted the story. I don't like gear, I never have and I never will. I think it seriously divides playerbases and encourages eliteism. For a game that supposedly encouraged 'all playstyles', why do I not get to see the story unfold because it's in a system I'm not interested in participating in? It's almost a presumption that I'm the 'wrong' kind of player.

And I'll be honest about this, and I've avoided saying it for a long time in any forum: Bioware is doing what City of Heroes does, but better. I got more invested, more interested and more instrinsically involved with all aspects of the game (yes, even raiding) because I was encouraged to rather than given a narrow corridor of option. I got style but I also got substance.

And I don't give my loyalties away easily to any game.



S.


Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse

 

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Originally Posted by SuperOz View Post
I think that's a key point to note here; I think Doc Aeon is a funny and talented guy going on what I've seen of him in Ustream chats and he seems fairly knowledgeable about the City of....universe.
He really isn't. Recent writing is full of blatant inconsistencies that could have been avoided with five minutes spent on ParagonWiki, and I don't think he's run a Malta mission ever.

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Originally Posted by TheDeepBlue View Post
I've never understood how that whole 'exposition in intense melee combat' stuff works in any comic book universe.
Talking is a Free Action.

(I'm sorry)

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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide View Post
More importantly, though, is the second realization: The devs are hoarders. They don't want us to have the lore at our fingertips. They want to keep it locked up in their vault and doled out a teaspoonful at a time. They already have a hard enough time trying to deal with the continuity problems that arise in the content of the past eight years. By keeping everything as opaque as possible, they leave themselves the freedom to define the world to be whatever they want or need it to be.
This "freedom" has its downside though. When you have established a clear series of events, it's hard to screw it up, so long as you do the research, and having the backstory so clear-cut forces the writers to do this research, because otherwise all the beta testers will stand up and scream, "hey, Akarist isn't a bad guy!" Whereas a vague backstory in a shared universe encourages further writers to add their own vague spin on it, which eventually leads to a muddled mess.


Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
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Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
When you have established a clear series of events
Like the Well of the Furies?


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

[QUOTE=Eva Destruction;4100616]He really isn't. Recent writing is full of blatant inconsistencies that could have been avoided with five minutes spent on ParagonWiki, and I don't think he's run a Malta mission ever.

Talking is a Free Action.

(I'm sorry)
[QUOTE]

Wow, really? That's not a good sign....I would've hired Michelle (Samuraiko) instead. She's practically a walking encyclopedia. And then hire on Arcanaville who knows the numbers better than they do.

Heh, I remember talking as a free action, I used to play Champions (oh, the irony) back in the day. Still doesn't make any sense.



S.


Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by SuperOz View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
He really isn't. Recent writing is full of blatant inconsistencies that could have been avoided with five minutes spent on ParagonWiki, and I don't think he's run a Malta mission ever.

Talking is a Free Action.

(I'm sorry)
Wow, really? That's not a good sign....I would've hired Michelle (Samuraiko) instead. She's practically a walking encyclopedia. And then hire on Arcanaville who knows the numbers better than they do.

Heh, I remember talking as a free action, I used to play Champions (oh, the irony) back in the day. Still doesn't make any sense.

S.
The Countess of Canon and the Doyenne of Digits at the same workplace would be too much for me to bear, I think... I'd be constantly running over to her asking her "hey, would THIS work?"

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite


Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
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Originally Posted by Dark_Respite View Post
The Countess of Canon and the Doyenne of Digits at the same workplace would be too much for me to bear, I think... I'd be constantly running over to her asking her "hey, would THIS work?"

Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
I think that'd be better than what we have, don't you?


S.


Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperOz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Respite View Post
The Countess of Canon and the Doyenne of Digits at the same workplace would be too much for me to bear, I think... I'd be constantly running over to her asking her "hey, would THIS work?"
I think that'd be better than what we have, don't you?
Oh, c'mon. Some days, four monkeys with typewriters supervised by a unicorn would be better than what we have.

But I'm ticked off, so I might be a little harsh in that assessment.


Prophecy & Dreams | Prophecy & Dreams Discussion

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Unbidden | Star Patrol | Real World Hero

 

Posted

All I can think is "good think the OP didn't spell it as incontinent, someone would be, ah, ticked off "


Orc&Pie No.53230 There is an orc, and somehow, he got a pie. And you are hungry.
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Negaduck: I see you found the crumb. I knew you'd never notice the huge flag.

 

Posted

*note*
This post was supposed to go up 12 hours ago, but I lost power to the whole building thanks to severe weather.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperOz View Post
(Sorry, I seem to have no ability to do multiple quotes in a post. Any advice welcome! )
If you're talking about the "multi-quote" functionality of the forums where you can reply to multiple posts all at once, that's achieved by clicking the little multi-quote button under all the posts you want to address. This "tags" them to appear as quotes whenever you create a new post in the thread, and they will appear in the order you tagged them in (as opposed to the order they're in in the actual thread).

If you mean how to split a person's post into two quotes, there are a couple of ways, and both involve writing your own tags. Quote a post and look at the opening and closing tags. For instance, for the post I'm replying to, the opening tag is "QUOTE=SuperOz;4100601" in square brackets and the closing tag is just "/quote" in square brackets, which I typed in by hand. My advise is to copy the first tag along with its brackets and just paste it in front of where you want to quote from. Then get to the end of what you want to quote and write "/quote" in square brackets to end the quote there.

If you don't want to do a lot of copy-pasting, you can use just the key word "quote" in square brackets to open a quote box, instead of the full "QUOTE=SuperOz;4100601," but then you'll lose the source of the quote. See, what the above means is, essentially, that I'm quoting "SuperOz" with a link that traces back to post #4 100 601 on the forums, which can link across threads. I prefer to keep this, as it's easier for people who want to read the full post I quoted to follow the link and do so, as opposed to wondering who said that and where.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperOz View Post
That's a hard truth I've had to come to realize in just solidifying opinions and feelings I've had about the game now for a bit, and it boils down to style over substance.
Sadly, this seems to be the case, and that's very well said. The game's recent developments strike me as exactly style over substance. They're always raising the stakes, always tossing loud, bombastic explosions our way, always reaching for the highest of high drama, and... Forgetting to add much of anything else. I forget who it was that said it's all climax, no downtime... I may be paraphrasing. But it is, and that - to me - is what ruins the story.

Almost every good story needs downtime so as to allow the power and emotion of its story room to build. Human emotions are not as quick as one might thing. When we're exposed to something horrible, for instance, we are rarely immediately horrified, even if we're upset by it. It's only that evening, the next day and so forth when that something horrible keeps popping up that we begin to realise how deeply it has effected us. Similarly, when we're faced with something happy and uplifting, we may smile for a minute, but if we're dragged away to do something else immediately, that's all we'll remember from it. It's not until we see this happy thing again the next day do we remember how nice it felt.

The simple fact of the matter is that the audience's own mind is the greatest storyteller of all, because that's what makes it real to them. People anticipating a nail-biting climax, a heart-warming scene or a gut-wrenching disaster will always do a far better job of psyching themselves up for the experience than you'll ever do actually trying to take them through the experience with the story proper. It's not the first drop of the rollercoaster that's the scariest, it's that split second right before it happens when that sheer drop ahead fully sinks in.

That is, all of the above counts if you can get people to care about the story. Because if your audience cares, then you don't need to shock them, you don't need to surprise them, you don't need to disgust them. You still can if you feel it contributes, but you don't HAVE to. All of these can add to the experience, but they can't MAKE the experience if your audience doesn't care. Just like throwing in many explosions does not make an action movie good, so throwing in a signature character death does not make a story good if it cannot carry the emotional weight that brings. If the story hasn't earned the drama, then it comes off as manipulative, and used in place of proper pacing and presentation.

We NEED slower storytelling. That doesn't have to mean slower gameplay, mind you. You can still break the stories down into shorter arcs, you can still keep some missions short-ish, but you CANNOT skimp on a story's screen time. Rob a story of too much of its "little things" and you rob it of its heart. Then all you have left is the chapter index.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

OK, last time when I started this thread, I hadn't actually run SSA5. My character wasn't high-level enough. I've only run the first mission so far, but there was so much both right and wrong with that mission I was compelled to write about it.

The wrong: Everyone EXCEPT Back Alley Brawler.

You know how I agreed BABs was the only one who hadn't made a fool of himself? Well, I thought that was because he just didn't have a role in these things. Turns out he does... And he's awesome! I'll talk about why in a minute, but for now, let's focus on everyone else.

I originally felt that Ms. Liberty was coming across as a competent, capable character just because she seemed to be handling the death of her mother like an adult, but no. She's back to being whiny kid in this. But you know what? Fine, I can deal with this. Her mom died, she's allowed to be irrational. But why the Funk and Wagnall are Mynx and Valkyrie acting like idiots? I could see them just trying to be faithful to Liberty, but you'd think they'd be a bit more rational.

No. They're chastising BABs for wanting to lead a covert operation on Arachnos soil. " Yeah! You think just 'cause you were one of the Regulators that you can tell us what to do?!" says Mynx, proving herself to be a confrontational, impulsive ******* who seems to constantly want to pick fights for no reason. No, BABs thinks he can tell you what to do because he's the only sane man... Woman or child left on Earth, apparently. And you should listen to him, because he's right! Who the hell did YOU lose, kitty, to turn you into an idiot?

And Valkyrie's line, while less embarrassing, is also silly. "You can't expect Ms. Liberty to stay out of such a personal matter!" Yes, he can! Ever heard of conflict of interests? You don't send the woman whose mother just got murdered to track down the killer exactly BECAUSE her judgement is impaired, both in an emotional and in a rational sense. By the evidence of her actions, Liberty SHOULD stay out of such a personal matter exactly BECAUSE it's a personal matter. And if you were any friend of hers, Valkyrie, you'd be reminding her of this, not encouraging and defending her irresponsible behaviour. Who did YOU lose, Valkyrie, to rob you of your judgement?

Again, if it were JUST Ms. Liberty acting like this, I could see it. I'd imagine the others would follow her out of a sense of loyalty and duty, but you'd think at least THEY would understand that marching on Arachnos territory would pick a fight with Arachnos and let Wade escape. I can see them wanting to back Liberty up, but they should do so begrudgingly, not wanting to take a side. It's like all of a sudden, Ms. Liberty is made of stupid, and it's infecting her companions.

The Right: Back Alley Brawler.

The man is awesome! Not only is he probably the best fighter of the bunch, but he also seems to be the only one left whose head is screwed-on straight. Manticore was supposed to be the emotionless professional, but he just comes off like a whiny emo kid. BABs, on the other hand, has his head in the game even in a moment of extreme emotional stress. He's thinking strategically, not only trying to capture Wade, but thinking ahead and trying to avoid all complications which could impede his capture. BABs knows Wade is not strong enough to fight us. As per Johnny Sonata, he doesn't have any powers. BABs knows that we're on Arachnos territory, and if we make too much noise and involve Arachnos, they'll get in the way. And surprise-surprise... Liberty's presence attracts Arachnos and they get in the way! Why is BABs the only one who can see the obvious?

Oh, but you know what really made me a BABs fanboy? When Valkyrie challenges him with her above line, his response is "I -expect- you all to keep your acts together and let <Player Name> and I handle finding Darrin Wade!" Yeah, suspect grammar, but that's exactly what I've been saying in this whole thread! You are professionals. You are heroes. People's lives depend on you. Yes, you are EXPECTED to act like professionals and like heroes and know what the hugs and kisses you're doing! Thank you, BABs, for saying it with me!

The Right: Other stuff.

BABs isn't the only thing right with the mission, though. I really liked how the conversation with Wade is handled. That was an EXCELLENT way to make my character come off competent. Wade starts talking, and I'm thinking "Oh, great, here we go again!" but no. He says one sentence, my character instantly spots he's an illusion and stops listening. No way! Do you have any idea how many times I've wanted to just ignore all the many sanctimonious bastards who wanted to give me a Hanibal Lecture just to turn around and attack me anyway? Not only does this prove confidence - my character can spot an illusion damn near instantly - but it's also a very, very cool moment. AND Wade didn't come off dumber for it. He left a whole bunch of traps on the way, and the illusion was just one. The man is hedging his bets. If the illusion slows me, it slows me. If it doesn't, well... It was worth a try. Brilliant writing there. LOVE it!

Also, the fight with Mako is just priceless. Once again, though, we see villains acting like villains and being competent... Or as competent as they've ever been, anyway - this is Make, after all - and heroes are still dribbling with the idiot ball. Or is that dribbling ON the idiot ball?

Anyway, the fight with Mako is cool because it's a pretty high-profile encounter. Sure, it's not all four Patrons and Recluse, that would have been... Bad... It's just Mako and the red-headed stepchildren of all the Patrons, but then it's BABs, Liberty and two recently-hatched ducklings, to quote Yahtzee, on our side, so it ought to be an even match. Well, not really - we kicked their *****, but it WAS a pretty cool fight. Mako's being Mako, and I love his writing for it, though I can't tell what anyone else acted like. As soon as the fight started, all 9 characters tossed up two simultaneous speech bubbles, and that's beyond even Data's capacity to read before those faded WHILE FIGHTING.

What's amusing is Mako caved like a sissy. I hit him with Rib Cracker, Shin Breaker and Smashing Uppercut and BABs then rushed in and slammed him with his own Knockout Blow, so the poor fish man didn't last long. At the end, it was five-on-one against Silver Mantis. Yeah, that Unstoppable won't save you now! Hah! It was a cool fight with cool characters, and one where the ******* in Distress suffering heroes actually acted with some competence. Just goes to show that a good combat system trumps bad writing, I guess.

---

This was a mixed bag of good and bad, and it's just the first mission, but I gotta' tell ya: BABs is awesome. Forget the Statesman and Liberty. Hell, forget Blue Steel. I want to see more of BABs now!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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You don't send the woman whose wife just got murdered
o rly?


 

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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ View Post
o rly?
Fixed. Did not proof-read this before posting, clearly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

you retain 2 stars for accidental funny