*spoilers* The Freedom Phalanx are incompetent!


Arctic_Princess

 

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Originally Posted by Cosmic_Herald View Post
Sam,
First off.. this is not an attack on you.
But...
How about you put together a short synopsis of how you would have done it instead of how it was done?
Sure, I'll bite. From the hero-side point of view:

SSA1: It transpires that the Lost are up to something, but we're not sure if we can trust the Pariah who's giving us this information, and we don't know about the Obelisk. We never learn who they're targeting, but we find something disturbing out - "someone" has tipped the Lost off about the Obelisk, and has given them a magical artefact a: A Slow Field Generator. This artefact generates and almost invisible forcefield that saps the kinetic energy of anyone who crosses it, slowing them down considerably. Suddenly, it becomes clear who they're targeting - the one hero whose primary super power is enhanced speed. We try to call Synapse, but he's not answering. It turns out he went to investigate massive build-up of energy, never suspecting the Lost are laying a trap.

That way, we have Darryn Wade acting smart by pinning the blame on other people. We have Synapse acting to his strengths - the situation requires immediate action, and he's the only one fast enough to respond. Synapse also loses not because he sucks, but because someone counted on him to play to his strengths, and thus laid a trap for him. Everyone comes off competent.

SSA2: When Darryn Wade shows up to "help" the Midnight Squad, Midnighters immediately attack him on sight. He tries to explain why he's here, but they're determined to put him in a cell first, THEN have him explain himself. He pouts and leaves, leaving the Midnighters to fight off the Rulu Shin. When it's all said and done, the Midnighters IMMEDIATELY set out to investigate the full scale of thefts that occurred, and immediately assume some or all of those thefts were done by Darryn Wade. They can't track what's missing and who took it, however, because the chaos left behind by the Rulu Shin has obscured any clues. The rest of the arc plays out like it does now.

Here, again, Wade comes off smart. He feigns help, as though wanting to let bygones be bygones, but has the moral high ground of having been chased off. The Midnighters know he stole artefacts, but because he has the reputation of a nuisance and a petty thief, they assert that he merely took advantage of the Rulu Shin raid, rather than orchestrating it. This way, he has a reason to have been there, rather than leaving the question of what he was doing at the mansion open. And, no, he was obviously not there to help, that much is obvious even to the untrained eye. The Midnighters, in turn, don't leave like idiots. They know Wade was there to steal, they know he took something, but they can't be sure which threat is the more pressing. A proper investigation takes time, and the more immediate danger are the Rulu Shin. Wade has thus counted on the Midnight Club to be competent and address the greater threat and assume his to be lesser.

SSA3: Blitz sends a secret message that Arachnos are on the verge of overrunning his positions and ceasing control of the Warburg missiles to use for themselves. He offers to surrender himself and the missiles to Paragon City, but only if Alexis Cole-Duncan is present to negotiate his surrender. He doesn't trust anyone else to honour his requests, claiming that any other hero will just kill him as soon as he surrenders for all the missiles he's launched at Paragon City. Only Alexis can be trusted to actually negotiate his surrender terms with him.

This would be smart of Blitz to do. It gives him a plausible reason for why he's surrendering that a hero could buy. If Arachnos catch him, his dead, so he wants to save his own skin and surrender to the heroes, instead. He has no plans to surrender, obviously, but it's a plausible explanation why he's broaching the subject in the first place. It also gives him a plausible reason for why he needs Alexis there, and not Manticore or Statesman or anyone else who might put indignation before justice. He needs someone who doesn't want him dead. It's smart to phrase your request like this, because then the heroes aren't asking why Blitz is doing this. They might be asking why he's REALLY doing it, but at least they can't discount the possibility that he's honest.

SSA3, redux: I don't have a good reason why the whole Freedom Phalanx can't be there. Can we think of one?

Let's roll with the idea that only Manticore can serve as security. He's more than capable enough, and he has a very large Longbow force with him, probably enough to occupy the island and easily enough to handle any potential trap. Only it turns out there's a mole. A disaffected Longbow Commander who's been applying to become a Warden for years but keeps being rejected has found a different way to gain that kind of power - Wade's magic artefacts. He's the one who cuts Longbow's communication right at the worst possible time, allowing Arachnos forces to take them down in a number of small skirmishes without ever raising a general alarm. Without a coordinated defensive strategy and no communication, the entire Longbow force is taken down before Manticore and Alexis even know something is going on. They both take their planned escape route, only the traitor Commander has set up a massive ambush on the way. Manticore is overwhelmed, but explains how Alexis kicked off her high heels and fought off a whole squad of Arachnos soldiers, but was eventually overwhelmed.

This, again, makes Wade smart, because he works by proxy. He gives artefacts to the traitor, but no-one can tell where they came from. For all anyone knows, it was Malaise who gave them to the guy, having bought them from the black market. Manticore, Longbow and even Alexis come off as competent and effective, but they lose because they were betrayed by someone they relied on. They were taken down not because they suck, but because overwhelming numbers of Arachnos soldiers swept the Longbow positions room by room, taking on small groups of Longbow one by one without them being able to raise an alarm. Without his Longbow backup that he counted on to have, Manticore isn't strong enough to protect Alexis, but he still comes off as smart for having to be betrayed from within to fail. Alexis, too, doesn't come off like a damsel in distress. She fights for her freedom, but ultimately fails, selling her as a legitimate, if retired hero.

SSA3: Again. Malaise show up, admits he masterminded the whole deal and claims he brainwashed and manipulated Blitz into everything. He taunts Manticore to kill him repeatedly, forcing Manticore to make a choice and take the Batman high ground of not killing him and becoming like him. At one point, Manticore decides to kill Malaise anyway, and the player is forced to talk him down and, if necessary, fight him, but only until he drops down to about 90% health.

Again, Wade comes off smart. He works through Malaise, who's both evidently crazy and comes off like a Mastermind himself. It appears that he killed Alexis for no reason other than to mess with Manticore and put him at odds with his wife, so he could then mess with Psyche. Malaise has a reasonable motive. He could even say that's what he wants, and he'll still have the crazy excuse. Manticore, in turn, has not just reason to not kill him, in the "I won't do what you're asking me to do!" sense, but also because the player ACTS to prevent it. He doesn't come off as smart, but he at least comes off as a person. Manti is still a dick for not having told Statesman and Liberty, but Blitz has threatened to launch all his missiles, and they can't be trusted to not overreact. It's a mistake, and a fairly obvious one, but it still happens.

SSA4: We start with Manticore apologising to Ms. Liberty about the death of her mother, but she's angry with him and doesn't want to hear it. Manticore is worried about his wife, because he's the Batman and he knows something bad will happen, but Liberty suspects that he just wants to kill Malaise, so she stands her ground. In the follow-up conversation, Liberty explains that she's sorry she went off on Manticore, and that she's still shaken up from her mother's death and from the argument she had with her grandfather about it, and she took it out on Manticore. Still, she doesn't know what to think about him any more, she doesn't exactly trust his judgement and she's worried he's distract Sister Psyche, so he can't be allowed inside. In the meantime, the Statesman is convinced there's something more going on, and he has brashly went ahead to investigate on his own, believing that the Freedom Phalanx are strong enough without him. He's been talking about stepping down and trying to help his friends step up, so he thinks they're ready.

This gives Manticore a reason to want to be present - to help his wife in case something goes wrong. It also makes Manticore not an ******* by trying to apologise and accepting Liberty's anger, knowing he deserves it. This has the unfortunate consequence of putting Liberty in the wrong for yelling at him, but she has her reasons - her mother died, and she got into a fight with her grandfather. It's not exactly perfect, but it's understandable. It also gives her a reason to want Manticore out beyond just being pissed off. She doesn't trust him to control his temper, especially after trying to kill Malaise once already. It also gives the Statesman a better reason to abandon his team - he believes they're strong enough to do without him, and this one is personal for him, so he needs to deal with it on his own. He's not stupid and brash, he just knows that what he's going to do to the one responsible, his friends shouldn't be associated with.

SSA4: Redux. The Dirge starts playing and won't stop. An alarm is raised, and Manticore shows up with cops in tow to help out. He's told to back down because the dirge will affect him, but he's determined to help his wife. He quickly comes under the control of the Dirge and the player is forced to fight him. After receiving a call for help back at the cell, the player finds the psychics struggling as the Dirge wears down their mental barriers. At this rate, Malaise will break through any second. The player is asked to knock him out, but Malaise breaks free, leading to a brief fight until Malaise is at 50% health. Following this, he collapses, unconscious. Just then, Aurora collapses, as well, losing the fight against the Dirge, and you're asked to fight a pawn or two of phantoms as you lose your mind to the dirge. Out of all other options, Sister Psyche absorbs all the negative energy from the Dirge, saving the player and Aurora, safe in the knowledge that Malaise is too unconscious to be a thread. However, Malaise's head glows and he is forced back into consciousness, thanks to a new technique Wade taught him. He then enters the mind of the now-weakened Sister Psyche.

This makes Manticore even less of a jerk. He's there to help with the emergency, but walks into a trap not meant for him without realising it and before you can stop him. His motivation is thus pure, and he's not protected because no-one expected him to be there. It's a mistake, yes, but a mistake in the name of love, not in the name of being an asswaffle. Psyche, too, is shown as confident, realising when they're outmatched and resorting to knocking Malaise out. Beyond this, she is forced into lowering her defences and absorbing the Dirge to save her friend and the player. Malaise is also proven to have been clever. Expecting that a simple and effective method for controlling a psychic is to knock him unconscious, he trains to bring himself back to consciousness. Manticore is proven to be both decent AND competent, but walks into a situation that's beyond him, Psyche is proven to be beyond competent, but loses to unforeseen consequences, and the player actually has a use in the mission beyond failing to do anything, even if it's a failure ultimately anyway.

I've not played SSA5 yet (I need a character over level 40, and my Scrapper is level 37), but that's what I'd do to the story arcs if I were forced to change them wile retaining the existing arc and mission structure, with only minor text changes and an event here and there.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Zemblanity View Post
Did we save Sister Psyche? - No, she's gone into a coma.
Actually, this one actually did make me smile a little bit, and not because she's in a coma. Yeah, Sister Psyche came out bad, but at least she's alive and not taken over by the "I watch/read X-Men" disease, but I actually did get to stop Malaise's plan and FINALLY shut his smarmy mouth up. It's not exactly a victory, but we averted a major disaster. And SisP has spent years in a coma before. She can be cured from this one, in time.

Honestly, when I first played SSA4, that scene at the end of SSA3 was in my head. "You, dear! You're next!" I was sure Malaise was going to mindrape her and kill her, or worse, and I wouldn't be able to do anything about it, but no! I actually get to help the poor woman, and in a pretty big way. Again, it's not a total success, but considering how I utterly failed to accomplish anything interesting in SSA3, killing Malaise and saving Psyche's life was an accomplishment.

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Originally Posted by MisterMagpie View Post
Yes, but we didn't actively make things worse, which is the standard I live my life by.
Heh, good point We may not have helped much, but that's more than can be said for the Freedom Phalanx, whose every move makes everything worse. We're making massive differential progress here!


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Zemblanity View Post
I just can't see past this. Short of time-travel, there's no way we're ever going to set things right again. All we can do is try not to mess things up so much in the future.
I found it highly amusing (that is to say, I was highly annoyed) when the chapter three contact informed me that I was going to receive a commendation for my efforts. WTF? Seriously, Agent Kwahu? An honorary medal? I didn't realize that they handed out medals for royally f---ing up and letting a signature hero get murdered by a crackpot dictator.

But, oh, right; I should take solace in the fact that it's not my fault because there was nothing I could do...


 

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Originally Posted by SlickRiptide View Post
I found it highly amusing (that is to say, I was highly annoyed) when the chapter three contact informed me that I was going to receive a commendation for my efforts. WTF? Seriously, Agent Kwahu? An honorary medal? I didn't realize that they handed out medals for royally f---ing up and letting a signature hero get murdered by a crackpot dictator.

But, oh, right; I should take solace in the fact that it's not my fault because there was nothing I could do...
Let's just say, there's nothing flattering written on that medal.


In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Actually, this one actually did make me smile a little bit, and not because she's in a coma. Yeah, Sister Psyche came out bad, but at least she's alive and not taken over by the "I watch/read X-Men" disease, but I actually did get to stop Malaise's plan and FINALLY shut his smarmy mouth up. It's not exactly a victory, but we averted a major disaster. And SisP has spent years in a coma before. She can be cured from this one, in time.
Actually, we don't have the first clue what's going on inside of Shalice's head. Malaise was stopped and killed, sure. Shalice was prevented from being locked up inside of her own mind while Faux Aurora took over (and the whole Faux Aurora thing has to be one of the dumbest plot devices ever) but we have no idea what Faux Aurora is doing to Shalice, given this apparent multiple personality disorder that Shalice has. There's no guarantee that the woman who awakens from the coma will be Shalice Tilman. My expectation is that it won't be. (Of course, a psychiatrist/psychologist might well say that the woman who woke up at the conclusion of Calvin Scott's story was not "Shalice Tilman" either. The real Shalice would be the whole personality created from the merger of "Shalice" and "Aurora".)

It will be a long stretch to count this as much of a victory.


 

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A couple things being overlooked in the whole "They're incompetent!" crusade:

Point 1:

Have any of you played through the villain side arcs? Manticore was defeated in SSA3 by the villain PC. The villain side arcs are designed to make you feel just as powerful as the Freedom Phalanx too, in the form of beating them up. Since the arcs are designed to be soloable, sending the entire Freedom Phalanx to protect her is kind of ridiculous, unless you expect the average player to be able to take on 7 Elite Bosses simultaneously, while solo.

I'm assuming that several of the people posting here have NOT played through them, otherwise SlickRiptide would not be under the impression that it was Blitz who killed Alexis. It was not Blitz at all, in fact he had no idea she was going to be killed. The culprit was either A) the villain PC, or B) Darrin Wade (he shoots her in the head).

The arcs are designed to be played from both sides with the same end results. If the Freedom Phalanx didn't screw anything up, it ruins things from the villain perspective because the Phalanx would have won.

Point 2:

Why do police officers get bereavement leave when a loved one dies, instead of being told to get back out on the street immediately?

Easy answer: It's because they would be distracted by grieving for their loved one and won't have their full attention on their job. Same goes for soldiers, if they recieve word that a loved one dies they are not immediately sent into combat if it is at all avoidable.

Yes, even though both the police officer and soldier are consummate professionals, grieving for a loved one WILL have an adverse affect on the performance of their job. They will not be as competent as they would normally be until they have had time to get through their grief and focus on things again. Both the cop and the soldier would stand a VERY good chance of getting themselves or someone else killed because their mind wasn't on the task at hand.

Now, with that said, look at the timeline of arcs 3 through 5. We experienced them over the course of 3 months. For the characters in the game, no more than 2 days had passed. Statesman died within 48 hours of his daughters death. Arcs 3 and 4 probably took place in teh saem 24 hour period.

Since Alexis was known and apparently well liked by everyone in the Phalanx, it is reasonable that her death would hurt all of them. She was mother to one, and daughter to another, and probably a close friend to all of the others, at the very least. The only one I would expect to not be affected by her death is Citadel. Everyone else was distracted by grieving for their daughter/mother/friend and didn't have their mind fully on what they were doing.

That's part of what I meant by "They're still human beings". Any other professional who routinely has the lives of others in their hands is given the opportunity to get through their grief before they are asked to resume their duties. The Freedom Phalanx had no such opportunity before they had to deal with the next threat.

It is perfectly reasonable for anyone in that situation, professional as they may be, superhero or not, to not be at the top of their game. It defies human nature to expect otherwise.

Yes, the Freedom Phalanx are superheroes, and consummate professionals at what they do. But I don't care how professional you are, if someone that close to you dies, it is GOING to affect how well you do your job if you are not allowed to get past it first.

You want to give them crap for bickering and being incompetent? Lets have someone YOU care about brutally murdered and see how well YOU function over the next couple days. I'd be willing to bet you wouldn't be a very good police officer or soldier....or superhero, until you've had time to ge past it.

Killing Alexis was the linchpin of Wade's plan, and he had to act on the rest of his plan immediately, while the Phalanx was still trying to cope with what just happened. With everyone distracted and not at the top of their game, they were much easier to deal with.


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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Actually, this one actually did make me smile a little bit, and not because she's in a coma. Yeah, Sister Psyche came out bad, but at least she's alive and not taken over by the "I watch/read X-Men" disease, but I actually did get to stop Malaise's plan and FINALLY shut his smarmy mouth up. It's not exactly a victory, but we averted a major disaster.
You realize this story-arc has the exact same outcome if you play a villain, i.e., Malaise always dies and Sister Psyche always slips into a coma? All we did was prevent Manticore from doing something he might regret, though unfortunately we failed to prevent his wife from doing the same.

As to your proposed changes, I think they're interesting, but I wouldn't alter Statesman's behavior. For once, people are allowed to be a little irrational when their only daughter is murdered, and a little "screw the world" is to be expected. Also, IMO, while the timing could be better (it was Alexis' funeral, after all), States is right in saying heroes shouldn't be slipping out-of-jail cards to ex-villains they think might be worthy of reedemption. If said villain is innocent, let him prove it in court, or else let him serve his time in prison.

Also, Manticore will never apologize for something he knows he had no control over, and he'd never, ever, ever let a little girl keep him from making sure his wife is safe, no matter how tactless he had to be. Sensitivity be damned, he was right, Malaise's plan wasn't over.

Finally, hero players are getting way too Mary-Sue'd for my tastes. If the players "fail" a mission, the NPCs should stop sugar-coating it.

Longbow guy - "How sad, Alexis died, but we're positive it wasn't your fault, because we ran a super high-tech quantum authopsy that pin-pointed her time of death to 19 minutes and 23 seconds before you walked into that room... you know, when you were valiantly disarming nukes without missing a single one, right? Right? So, anyway, good job, here's your hero merit. "

Sidechick - "That Manticore is such a loser, how could he let my mom die? He's totally not like you, because while you also let my mom die, it's totally not your fault because you seem incredibly smooth and reliant. And it's so totally cool of you not to even tell me you're sorry you've let my mom die, that's incredibly cool and professional. Anyway, Manticore's totally wrong about Malaise, because he's, you know, a loser, and losers don't get to be allowed to protect their own wives. I mean, it's not like Malaise has an evil plan all plotted out and just outright threatened Sister Psyche, right? Right? Anyway, hugs and kisses, I'll head into a bar in Sharkhead while you question him. Oh, btw, did I give you your totally deserved hero merit for totally not saving my mom already?"

Glacia - "Ooops, Statesman's dead, and there's a brown paper-bag running around with incarnate powers trying to bring forth the apocalypse, but I'm sure that's not your fault, you only had about 5 months and countless clues to figure it out. It's not like you were getting into bar fights with the evil teen squad instead of trying to catch up with the bad guy, right? Right? In fact, you're so awesome that I suspect Darrin Wade is scared ******** of your awesomeness, so I'm sure we'll be fine. Anyway, good job, here's your well earned hero merit."


 

Posted

While I agree that it could have been presented better, there are some things that I think are getting missed from lack of information. Wade did research on each of them, and apparently read the same books I did

He played up to each of their weaknesses, and used his resources (Malaise, and our villains) well.

The role of 'hero' never fit Marcus Cole very well. Before being empowered, he was a big-time thief and mercenary with a very flexible morality. If it wasn't for Monica Richter, who later became his wife, needing help against Nemesis (yes, it all started from a Nemesis plot- read up on Brass Monday) he would probably have just used his powers to benefit himself. In fact, he considered that, but his love of Monica was his driving force. He chose to be a hero for her, and the city, out of a sense of responsibility, not out of the goodness of his heart. His resolve was hardened by learning what his former best friend was up to, and what he had become (Lord Recluse). The book also introduces the original members of the Plalanx and gets into their story a bit.

That's all from the "Web of Arachnos" book. Macus is brash, a bit self-centered, and doesn't come from the most noble of backgrounds.

Fast forward to a few decades later, the novel "The Freedom Phalanx" starts us off in a now dilapidated and crime-ridden Paragon City. The origial Phalanx had long been disbanded and a hopeful young scientist (Positron) and his friend and roomate (Synapse) decide to set out to try and bring the city back to its former glory. Well, more Positron. Synapse didn't really want to get involved, but wasn't going to let his friend go out there alone.

Monica is on her deathbed, and Marcus Cole no longer guards Paragon, focused more on world-shaping crimes and criminals (even making a reference to going to other planets). He wasn't really concerned about the fate of Paragon itself. In fact, He was pretty much ready to fly off into the sunset the moment she passed, leaving the world and his now grown up daughter and young granddaughter to go on without him (the "grandpa can you fly to heaven" was a reference from a conversation he had with his granddaughter in this book). He was tired of always having to be the hero.

We get introduced to the other heroes, Manticore, the mysterious, driven, Batman type character who really wants nothing to do with anyone else and has his own agendas. Sister Psyche, amazing and aloof (you find out she's 'aloof' because of all the 'noise' people make in her mind and has to work hard to shut it out sometimes).

Anyway, Positron and Synapse discover a plot going on that would drive the city into chaos, and they need help. The villains of the story weaken Sister Psyche before he can even talk to her (they damage her ability to block out the voices so she ends up in her apartment in the fetal position just trying to shut the city out). Manticore is on the trail of his villain, Protean (who is also part of the conspiracy, but he doesn't know it) and doesn't care about anything else (to be fair, he'd been hunting Protean for years now, and he'd just resurfaced, so he didn't want to lose the opportunity before he disappeard again).

Positron decides to talk to Statesman, in the hospital. He appeals to Marcus' strong sense of responsibility and in the end convinces him to re-form the Phalanx. After that I don't want to give away the plot. Stuff happens, Sister Psyche works her stuff out, they come together and wind up stopping the plot (obviously). The lesson here, however, is how disparate they really are at the core. They're all powerful and capable of fantastic stuff as a team, but there really has to be something tying them together to work against (instead of each other, really). This is also illuminated in the comics as well. Without something to focus on as a force, they don't really work together well, and often work alone in the day to day (except Positron and Synapse).

That said, I'm going to point out how this ties in, in another post, just to help prevent the 'wall of text' reaction.


"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.

 

Posted

Now how all that applies to Wade's plot is as follows.

The only 'suspension of disbelief' I really had to get past in the SSA's was the whole ordeal with Blitz and sending Alexis as a diplomat. The events once she's there makes sense, but the whole setup was a little strained. Other than that though.

Alexis' death, and his estranged relationship with his granddaughter put Statesman right back into that mindset he'd had, one he hadn't really shaken except for his sense of responsibility.

Manticore, who's a... focused individual, finds out about Malaise. I'm sure he and Sister Psyche had an argument about this before she even went to interrogate him. Having the argument with Ms. Liberty didn't help. He was too focused on his quarry to really think of anyone's feelings. In the cowl, he's not a warm person anyway. He was really just a distraction though.

Malaise can't control people directly but can subtly affect them. I'm sure he'd been in touch with the 'inner Shalice' at some point prior. In the comics she started out having trouble holding her in check, so time-wise, it hasn't been that long (however long after the Rikti War in 2004 it took to get back into her own body, and though the comic book explaination of I-5 and ED being a plot of Arachnos really weakened her control over the 'inner Shalice' even more).

Playing the villain arc, it's pretty clear the 'inner Shalice was anticipating this, and may have even subtly prompted Sister Psyche in that moment of annoyance and weakness to do exactly what they wanted. Rookie mistake, yes, but we need to keep in mind all the factors at play. She's powerful, but she's like a tower of glass, and like I said, I'm betting Malaise had already commmunicated the plan to inner-Shalice before or during the mission. Remember he considered himself an artist setting the stage. How subtle was he in doing it? How long had he been setting this up? With the external and internal prompting, how hard could it have been to shatter that tower?

At no point was it clear that there was an overwhelming menace. Having nothing to focus on they pretty much acted individually, or stayed out of the plot alltogether. Wade anticipated this, and took full advantage of it. That's why subtlety was so important. Our villains were just another patsy to spread the idea of a plot even thinner and to distract from what he was really doing in the background.

Wade had no doubt that once Statesman found out who was responsible for Alexis' death, he wouldn't bother with gathering the rest of the Plalanx. In fact, he figured Statesman would come to kill him, breaking his role as hero with the goal of leaving the world afterward. He even said as much. However, regardless of Statesman's goals in the encounter, he had no doubt Statesman would come alone. What reason would he have had to bring anyone else?

As players, we see a bigger picture, and can run the arc over for things we may have missed, but the rest of the heroes can't. For those of us that have played both hero and villain arcs, we see more of the plot (including the cutscenes at the end) the Freedom Phalanx has no clue about. It wasn't until the last live SSA that the Phalanx actually started getting organized about it, because there was nothing they were aware of that they needed to organize against per-se.


"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.

 

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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
Killing Alexis was the linchpin of Wade's plan, and he had to act on the rest of his plan immediately, while the Phalanx was still trying to cope with what just happened. With everyone distracted and not at the top of their game, they were much easier to deal with.
Those are simply the situations where people show their true colours. It's easy to be a hero and do the right thing when everything's hunky-dory. It's when the **** hits the fan and personal tragedy strikes that we sort the real heroes from the fair-weather heroes. Real life cops and soldiers have people to replace them. Heroes don't have that luxury, and being able to step up even in the face of tragedy and hardship is what makes them the icons we want to respect and admire.

You're excusing the story because they're just real people, but these are real people who have no business being the premier, greatest heroes of their world. They are not competent or committed enough, and their breakdown is just the end result of a flawed group composed of flawed people to begin with. If these were the Shining Stars or Faultline and Fusionette, I could maybe see that. They're all struggling to survive. But the Freedom Phalanx were the face of heroes for many years. They have always been the ideal we strive to meet and surpass.

Well, no longer. Now they're just the same kind of flawed, weak, horrible people, just like the rest of them. Congratulations, you have made it so that we are now better then them, but at what cost? We no longer have an ideal to aspire to. The Freedom Phalanx represent nothing at all. They're just a bunch of supercharged powerhouses that represent nothing that's worth emulating. They have no unity, they have no ideology, they no commitment to the cause, they don't even have the basic human decency to put others before themselves. Why, really, do we call them heroes any more, if they fail at heroes so horribly, and apparently have always felt the way they do and acted the way they do.

The Freedom Phalanx is no longer an ideal not because they failed, but because of HOW they failed. Because at the time when they needed each other the most, they instead chose to bicker, fight each other and run off. Because they failed at even the most basic use of their powers. Because their failed as friends, as heroes and failed as a whole. I'm sure I'd feel so bad about it if it weren't entirely their own fault. And not only are all the deaths and personal tragedies the Freedom Phalanx's own fault, every person who dies to Rularuu, to Daryn Wade or anything else that comes of it, every one of these deaths will be on their hands.

I believe that if a person takes on a responsibility, then that person needs to be committed to it. If no replacement is available, then that person simply needs to grin and bear that responsibility. Being able to do so vs. breaking down and failing miserably is the dividing line between the hero and the wannabe. And the Phalanx proved to be the wannabes, after all these years. I no longer have any respect for any of the people that have shown up in the SSAs thus far, and the more you explain how they're justified to suck, the less respect I have for them overall.

The sad truth is that City of Heroes in general no longer seems to hold any ideals, and is actively tearing down the ones we have for the sake of gritty realism or however you want to call it. Because real life is harsh, sad and devastating, so should our game be, and so it has been in recent years, truth be told. Dark, depressing and gritty. People die, people lose their innocence, people break down and fail. This isn't why I came here. Back in 2004, this isn't what sold me on the game. I didn't hear that bombastic narrator read "City of Heroes, where YOU are the hero!" and think to myself "Yes! A game where a hero's will is going to be broken as that hero is proven to be just a man and not up to the task."

You act as though strong people don't exist in the real world, when they do. Maybe no often, maybe not close together, but they do. A strong Freedom Phalanx defeated DESPITE their best efforts, rather than BECAUSE of said best efforts, would have been no less realistic than what we got. It would have simply been realistic in a fictional universe. A Freedom Phalanx made up of people I want to aspire to be like is no less realistic than a Freedom Phalanx made up of people I want to slap. The latter is simply more common, but no more realistic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Good post, Sam.


 

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Originally Posted by Zemblanity View Post
Also, Manticore will never apologize for something he knows he had no control over, and he'd never, ever, ever let a little girl keep him from making sure his wife is safe, no matter how tactless he had to be. Sensitivity be damned, he was right, Malaise's plan wasn't over.
First of all, it WAS his fault. He got beaten and lost her. "It was too tough" is not an excuse. He even admits it was a mistake in those exact words, yet refuses to apologise for his mistake like a stubborn little kid.

Secondly, he's arrogant, dismissive and horribly insensitive to a person having suffered a great loss BECAUSE OF HIM. That makes him a horrible person. He's twice as horrible because at no point does Manticore seem interested in actually protecting his wife. He mentions her once as a ticket to get in, but when he shows up later, he's happy the Dirge is playing. The Dirge which is the reason his wife is put in a coma. He's not there for Psyche, he's there for Malaise. And that's just being a jerk.

And finally, he was right about Malaise's plan AFTER he got Alexis killed as part of said plan. That doesn't give him a lot of credit to order people around.

I can excuse the rest of the Phalanx. They make rookie mistakes and bicker, but at least they have redeeming qualities. I can sympathise with their plight even despite all their failings. But Manticore is the REASON this whole thing goes down as it does. He's the linchpin around which the marry-go-round of fail revolves. Manticore does NOTHING redeeming the entire time, say NOTHING anyone can sympathise with and only serves to cause trouble for everybody. If the point of the story was to make me hate Manticore like I hate Westin Phipps, then job done!

*edit*
And I realise I'm being very hard on Manticore, but the truth of the matter is I'm losing my patience with the characters in City of Heroes. They are all so "realistic" that I'm growing tired of forgiving them for the ever-lengthening list of shortcomings that they simply cannot overcome. It really does feel that my character is the only capable person left in the game, as well as the only nice one, with the proper choice of dialogue options where applicable. And while I don't mind being at the top, I wish that top stood a little taller.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulipop View Post
Kill the waaaabbit, kill the waaaaabbit, Kiiiiiill the waaaaabbiiiitt..



Oh wait, I'm sorry.

Nice post.



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironblade View Post
Hey, that's a valid reason.
"Man, you're a jerk." <blam>
"Get off my lawn!" <blam>
"What are you looking at?" <blam>
"You call this medium rare?" <blam>
You forgot "That's not a knife...and neither is THIS!" <blam>



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Well, heroes have to have some setbacks - especially as we've been doing so well in the war against the Tyrant and the loyalists, as well as saving the world on a daily basis
Some?

Synapse is nearly killed and a major magical artifact is stolen, turned loose, then destroyed.

The Midnighter Club is broken into, and a major magical artifact is stolen.

A peace conference is revealed as a sham, the main several of the negotiation team are wounded/killed and the main negotiator is kidnapped and killed in a ritual sacrifice, apparently by some loonie.

One of the most powerful psychics on the planet is bushwhacked and has her abilities and mind destabilized by said aforementioned loonie. Her first real act after this is to KILL said loonie. IMNSHO, it's probably what SHOULD have been done. But to authorities, killing someone who's a still technically a captive always looks REALLY bad.

Statesman, basically the face of Paragon City, is flat out killed.


Your skills at understatement border on the superhuman.



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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect View Post
I'm assuming that several of the people posting here have NOT played through them, otherwise SlickRiptide would not be under the impression that it was Blitz who killed Alexis. It was not Blitz at all, in fact he had no idea she was going to be killed. The culprit was either A) the villain PC, or B) Darrin Wade (he shoots her in the head).
You're mixing story and meta-story. My hero doesn't know nor care that a villain PC was the one to pull the trigger. All he knows is that Alexis was kidnapped, then apparently killed by Malaise. Whether Blitz himself pulled the trigger is irrelevant. The fact that the villains get to have some kind of successful outcome to their story while the heroes fail their own story is not some kind of cherry on top that redeems the sundae.


 

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I've mostly tried to avoid critiquing the SSA chapters because I know where that road leads for someone as verbose as myself.

Litany of failure aside, I do have one rather big complaint and it ties into what Sam has been saying.

It's this: The rationale of the people (i.e., not just people in this particular thread) who review the arc positively boils down rather consistently to this: "The heroes are not themselves, and so they fail repeatedly. That makes them human, not chumps."

They're not themselves. One or more overcome with grief. One or more are blinded by anger. One or more their defense overloaded. One or more are cocky instead of cautious.

For any of a half-dozen reasons, they are not themselves. Except for my hero, of course. She is the only one keeping her head and wits about her, and that's why everyone depends on her and dotes on her every action despite the fact that she's failing just as badly as the signature heroes.

Yeah, fine. I get it. We're the stars now, and if we had any doubt about it, this arc puts it to rest.

A story where the root cause of the heroes' plight is that they are all behaving abnormally is a story that does not appeal to me or make me feel satisfied with the writing.

To answer your question, Sam, we no longer have any ideals. They are bad business, or so someone decided who apparently listened to the vocal complaints in that department long enough to become convinced that thousands of new F2P players would feel the same way.

You can't just say "Oh, they're human. They're flawed. That makes them more interesting." No, it doesn't. It makes them boring and unworthy of respect.

These are signature heroes. When I read a Retief novel, I don't read about yet another story where Retief bamboozles the diplomatic corps, deduces the fly in the ointment, wins the great diplomatic coup single-handedly, and once again gets all the girls, booze, and prestige while showing up the diplomats for the boring, hidebound, bureaucrat that they all are and then think to myself "Not again. If only Retief had a fatal weakness and he actually lost a gambit once in a while." I read Retief stories because that's the kind of story I WANT to read. If I wanted gritty realistic diplomacy stories I'd go read some real life diplomat's memoirs.

When I want to play a super hero I want to play a story where the heroes act like, well, heroes and not like dense, incompetent chumps who are too blinded by their inadequacies to see the truth that I took about five seconds to see. (Oh,and Manticore showing up with police officers? This is the guy who has his own private mercenary army, right? Who decided they should be rogue law enforcement officers instead his own highly-trained and unquestionably loyal Wyvern troops?)

I'm not saying that heroes should never have flaws, but for flaws to make the hero more interesting then they have to be interesting flaws. So far, this story is not giving us anything interesting. We're not learning about the heroes, or seeing them grow through adversity, or seeing any other redeeming feature of this continual parade of fail, fail, fail, fail, fail.

All I'm getting is "Crap, I can't believe that happened! Good thing YOU were there or it would have been a lot worse! I'm so glad that YOU are here to protect us. YOU are the one thing that SuperBad fears. I wish that every hero was just like YOU."

Yeah, thanks. I'll remember that when Alexis Cole's birthday rolls around.

I didn't ask to be the most important character in the game world and as a player I think it's a mistake to send the game in that direction. I don't pretend that my views on that subject are representative of any kind of majority. It might be that the vast majority of players are that self-absorbed that they can't stand having a fictional character be stronger than their own hero. I remain unconvinced of the truth of that statement but I could be wrong.

In any case, I think it's a bad precedent for the game but the die is set and there's really no turning back on that policy any more.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlickRiptide View Post
I didn't ask to be the most important character in the game world and as a player I think it's a mistake to send the game in that direction. I don't pretend that my views on that subject are representative of any kind of majority. It might be that the vast majority of players are that self-absorbed that they can't stand having a fictional character be stronger than their own hero. I remain unconvinced of the truth of that statement but I could be wrong.
To be fair, I actually was one of the people asking for pretty much this - that this be our story where we're the stars and the rest supporting cast. What I asked, and this is especially true post City of Villains, was that we stop being treated like extras in some NPC's story and be given the spotlight ourselves.

Having seen how that came out, I stand by my position, but find myself having to attack an addendum: I want to be the star of story full of people I can either admire or respect. The heroes I admire as the ideals I strive to meet and eventually exceed - and that last part is what counts. The villains I respect as the credible, serious threats that I strive to hold back and eventually defeat entirely. When I and others asked for our characters to have have a more respectable place in their own missions, we asked for our characters to be elevated, not for everyone else to be dragged through the mud. That's the fine print which I honestly assumed was implied in everything we suggested.

Like you, I can't speak for everyone, but I never got the impression that people who wanted more for their characters out of the story - people like me - actually wanted to destroy all the signature characters. I'm convinced that we wanted quite the opposite, to be given the opportunity to proceed past where the signature characters stop.

This is the benefit to having ideals in a video game - unlike in real life, these can be achieved. They give us a greater goal in our gameplay than just the next fistfight and just the next glob of Merits. They give us a measuring stick and a perspective of progress. When my villain stands toe-to-toe with the Statesman, the undefeatable hero built up for the past 50 levels, I feel a certain sense of accomplishment. That's not because HE is a bigshot, so much as because it means I have become a big-shot like him.

Without ideals, all we have left is to waddle in the mud ourselves. We improve, yes, but but there's no scale to progress along. We were the only competent people before, we're the only competent people now, and nothing has changed. The benefit to having a consistent, persistent world is lost if this world has nothing to offer us as we progress through it.

In relation to the Incarnate system, I have said that once we become Incarnates, we are no longer rookies and should not have to be relegated to menial tasks. I argued that we're the demigods who should be the raid bosses, the movers and shakers, the heroes of a story no-one else is good enough to tackle. But that's AFTER level 50, and AFTER we have gone beyond where all signature characters before cap out. I never wanted to see my own progression take the form of the regression of anyone else.

---

City of Heroes needs heroes, that's the bottom line. For the longest time, the Freedom Phalanx were these heroes, the ones we all measured ourselves against. My ultimate dream when starting a new character is to one day be on their level, even exceed their level, and with tasks like the Mender Silos TF, I could already do that. Now that they have been defaced, that particular TF is so much less impactful. What is so interesting about fighting or siding with the people who were defeated when one man caused their whole group to implode?

Yes, they're just people. But here's the thing - the people of City of Heroes should be stronger than this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
To be fair, I actually was one of the people asking for pretty much this - that this be our story where we're the stars and the rest supporting cast. What I asked, and this is especially true post City of Villains, was that we stop being treated like extras in some NPC's story and be given the spotlight ourselves.
It seems to me you're not asking to be the most powerful hero in a world that spins around you - you're asking to be the protagonist of your own story, which, IMO, sounds perfectly reasonable. Have the camera center on you when you log in, even if you're not top dog - maybe someone else is bringing down the Deathstar, but you're playing your part by taking down the approaching tie fighters. And guess what, it's also perfectly reasonable for you to want the spotlight, even if something else more important is happening at the same time.


 

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Originally Posted by Zemblanity View Post
It seems to me you're not asking to be the most powerful hero in a world that spins around you - you're asking to be the protagonist of your own story, which, IMO, sounds perfectly reasonable. Have the camera center on you when you log in, even if you're not top dog - maybe someone else is bringing down the Deathstar, but you're playing your part by taking down the approaching tie fighters. And guess what, it's also perfectly reasonable for you to want the spotlight, even if something else more important is happening at the same time.

Another currently out MMO does exactly that.

you and up to three others are very much the awesome mega movie heroes of the game, at any time.


Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zemblanity View Post
It seems to me you're not asking to be the most powerful hero in a world that spins around you - you're asking to be the protagonist of your own story, which, IMO, sounds perfectly reasonable. Have the camera center on you when you log in, even if you're not top dog - maybe someone else is bringing down the Deathstar, but you're playing your part by taking down the approaching tie fighters. And guess what, it's also perfectly reasonable for you to want the spotlight, even if something else more important is happening at the same time.
Pretty much, yeah. I want two things, in this regard:

1. That the story my character goes through feel like it's shaped by that character's actions at least somewhat.
2. That this character be put over strong and not be made a fool, a wimp or a loser.

Neither of those required the disgrace and humiliation of the Freedom Phalanx. In fact, #1 fails right out the gate on the villain side of things, since it's all Darryn's plan and our villains are just tagging along mooching for generic-term "power." But it's still HIS plan, and we're still HIS pawns.

Even hero-side, though, look at how things transpire. My character is the only capable person on the team, and the only one not afflicted by the third act stupidity, so it seems like I'm doing a lot, but I'm really not. I can't make up for the incompetence of the WHOLE team, "affected" as they are, so I mostly fail and can only measure up to people nor worthy of setting an example. Now imagine if this were the Freedom Phalanx at their prime, facing a threat that, even when they play to their strengths, they still can't defeat until our characters intervene. Imagine how much stronger of a build this would have been. Instead, they're all compromised, they all suck, and anything we bring is the most useful, because it's better than the nothing the Freedom Phalanx contribute. Especially Manticore, who does more harm than good by a fair margin.

I get that this is standard booking. The good guys are stronger in a straight fight, but the bad guys keep winning by cheating, until they're finally put in a no disqualification match at Wrestlemania where the bad guys can't cheat. But for this to work, you need to get the impression that the good guys would have won if the bad guys hadn't cheated, and I don't get that sense with the Freedom Phalanx. Instead, I get the sense of a group on the verge of collapse, staffed by people who can't stand each other and are just looking for an excuse to either take off or pick a fight. I wonder how they survived this long.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

The problem is the writers doing the story, are trying to capture popular super hero tropes, such as Jerk *** Batman. But they aren't as talented as the writers of the comics.

So instead of Manticore coming across as jerk *** Batman, aka a magnificent ******* , he comes across as whiny child.


Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.

 

Posted

Let's just say that if my main hero had freedom to act in any way he desired and he was standing beside Justin Sinclair watching as Malaise apparently murdered Alexis Cole in front of us, Malaise would not have left the the Isles alive. I have little doubt that Sinclair would backup whatever story my hero concocted to explain the accident that befell Malaise.

Oh, and Marshall Blitz is apparently toppled as head of state of Warburg? We disabled the missiles and arrested Blitz. Where does that leave Warburg?


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CactusBrawler View Post
So instead of Manticore coming across as jerk *** Batman, aka a magnificent ******* , he comes across as whiny child.
In other words, instead of lovable jerk Batman, we have The God Damn Batman, huh?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
In other words, instead of lovable jerk Batman, we have The God Damn Batman, huh?
We have even worse than that.

We have poorly written Midnighter.


Brawling Cactus from a distant planet.