*spoilers* The Freedom Phalanx are incompetent!


Arctic_Princess

 

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Originally Posted by Zemblanity View Post
IMO, apart from Darrin Wade, the only person who passes as being somewhat competent in all of this is Mercedes Sheldon.

- Every midnighter was too busy speculating about the reasons for the Rulaaru attack, and she alone had the clarity of mind to go the vault and check if anything was missing.
- While every effort was being made to recover Arcanus' skull, she stayed behind and ran an inventory check to see if anything *else* was missing from the vault.
- She realized the Dirge of Chaos was missing, and tracked it down to St. Martial.
- She was the one who made the connection between the missing artifacts and Darrin Wade, the only foreign element that could have conceivably taken them when the Midnight Club was attacked.
- She actually *helped* the player reach Johnny instead of going ahead on her own and making a mess of things.
AND she can throw down, too! When I first found her, she was fistfighting about half a dozen burly thugs!

But you're right, Mercedes comes off as fiercely competent in this case. While all the Freedom Phalanx are spinning their wheels and blaming each other, she's working on preventing other people from getting hurt. Her home was just defiled, her life was put in severe danger, many of her friends died, but instead of crumbling like a Statesman, Mercedes got to work averting further disaster.

In my playthrough, Mercedes fell in battle because she's not that strong a fighter, but I can't really consider this to be her own fault. She isn't a fighter, she's a mage, and I was supposed to be protecting her, a task at which I failed. She didn't run ahead, she didn't fly off the handle, and she wasn't even all that rude.

On the subject of people to admire, I admire Mercedes Sheldon. I don't know how realistic her behaviour is, but I know I can respect it, regardless.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
AND she can throw down, too! When I first found her, she was fistfighting about half a dozen burly thugs!

But you're right, Mercedes comes off as fiercely competent in this case. While all the Freedom Phalanx are spinning their wheels and blaming each other, she's working on preventing other people from getting hurt. Her home was just defiled, her life was put in severe danger, many of her friends died, but instead of crumbling like a Statesman, Mercedes got to work averting further disaster.

In my playthrough, Mercedes fell in battle because she's not that strong a fighter, but I can't really consider this to be her own fault. She isn't a fighter, she's a mage, and I was supposed to be protecting her, a task at which I failed. She didn't run ahead, she didn't fly off the handle, and she wasn't even all that rude.

On the subject of people to admire, I admire Mercedes Sheldon. I don't know how realistic her behaviour is, but I know I can respect it, regardless.
Yes. Friends dying is equal to one's daughter dying. Mhmmm.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Yes. Friends dying is equal to one's daughter dying. Mhmmm.
Depends on how close you are to those friends. I happen to not believe biological ties have anything to do with emotional relations. It's a question of the relationships you choose to develop, as opposed to the ones that are foisted on you.

And, yes, I do have immediate family on hand. Said immediate family is constantly on my case for why I'm not bursting with glee at every silly thing my five-year-old nephew does.

So, yes, a friend dying is equal to a daughter dying, depending on how close you are to either.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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The SSAs are free/easy alignment merits. Pay no attention to that absurd story.


The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

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Originally Posted by _eeek_ View Post
I'm with you there. He stands next to them, but not getting involved in squabbles, saying "I got your back, dood."

And he always does.

(Yes, the BaBs in my head spells it "dood")
BABs is forever a bro.

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Originally Posted by Lycantropus View Post
The fact that he intended to bring Wade to justice, even thenk did raise my estimation of him as a person. That was a conscious decision that, for him as I understand him, was probably the hardest choice to make.
He would have brought him to justice...in a body cast >.>

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Originally Posted by MisterD View Post
Um...I dont think you were paying attention. It WOULD have been a good idea, right then. Because she IS the most powerful psychic around, much stronger than Mal, and at that time, her mind was NOT weakened by the dirge. So yeah, smart guy, it would have been a GREAT idea to read his mind right then and see what the plan was.
It makes no sense in this situation to dive into someone's mind that she couldn't save before and intends to kill you. It would be like the Joker asking you to sniff his flower and not expect acid to shoot out of it...

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Having Statesman botch? Fine. Having Manticore botch? It can happen. Having Synapse botch? He's a cocky her. Having Psyche botch? Malaise got under her skin. Having the Midnighters botch? Eh, their club got invaded. Having them ALL botch, though? It's Botchamania 199!
;D


 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Depends on how close you are to those friends. I happen to not believe biological ties have anything to do with emotional relations. It's a question of the relationships you choose to develop, as opposed to the ones that are foisted on you.

And, yes, I do have immediate family on hand. Said immediate family is constantly on my case for why I'm not bursting with glee at every silly thing my five-year-old nephew does.

So, yes, a friend dying is equal to a daughter dying, depending on how close you are to either.
Sorry to quote myself, but also:

Comparing the death of a friend to the death of a daughter ignores all the other horrors the Midnighters have suffered, which I brought up in that cropped post. The sanctity of their home has been violated, and in a most violent manner. Their sense of security must have been shot to pieces, their confidence in their own spells put in doubt, suspicions of betrayal must have arisen. Such a brazen attack would throw the Midnight order in complete chaos, a kind of chaos that Mercedes mentions even two arcs after the fact.

For Mercedes, it's not JUST the loss of I would imagine more than a single friend. It's the fact that her home was violated. That's not a small issue.

And another thing: I get that the Statesman lost a daughter and make a mistake. I can dig it. But Miss Liberty lost a mother, and what mistake did she make? If we count leaving the interrogation, I assumed she meant she left Longbow guards to make sure nothing happened, but OK, we can count that.

But who did Psyche lose to make her screw up so thoroughly? A friend. A close friend? I don't know. I haven't read the books, so there's no way to tell. Alexis never existed in any game content prior to her death, and I haven't seen anything about her relation with any of the other Phalanx members. So Psyche lost a friend and screwed up bad, ending up in a coma.

Who did Manticore lose to cause him to screw up? A friend? Does he even HAVE friends? No, he screwed up on his own. Apparently, him and an army of Longbow soldiers just couldn't handle the mission they were given because reasons. But, OK, **** happens, people make mistakes. So who did he lose to continue making mistakes and acting like a jerk after the fact. A friend? Were he and Alexis friends?

No, we don't know if Mercedes lost friends. We know with pretty good certainty that many midnighters died, however, and we're never told what Mercedes' relationship with any of them was, because the Midnight Club is comprised of Montague, Percy, Mercedes and a bunch of red shirts. Yes, I'm assuming Mercedes gave a crap about some of the red shirts, but the point remains - Darryn Wade caused disaster for everybody, and Mercedes Sheldon is the only one who's actually doing something about it. All the other supposedly premier heroes are floundering around like fish on dry land because they're human and impaired.

Um... I need a hero?


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Personal note time, ignore if you don't care about my mentality behind this.

I may have made the situation worse for myself for one simple reason - I just got done writing "The Rise of a Hero," a story arc about Jun, the little girl that could which I'm playing right now, which both depicts her rise to prominence and sets her character up a one of the most dedicated, stubborn, uncompromising heroes I have ever made.

Jun is the girl I wanted to have hit Aaron Thiery in the mouth when he started talking about how the city had to be hurt for heroes to wake up, because she would never put people in danger under any circumstances. She's the one who shut down the Centre's "radio" mid-sentence because she doesn't care how much he does to reign Requiem in when his soldiers are still murdering people. She's the one who takes the Hero option at every opportunity without a second thought because that's the right thing to do.

Unwittingly, I wrote Jun to be the Naruto of my character roster. That is to say, she's the loud, brash kid who yells at adults having a crisis of conscience and punches people who try to argue for a grey-and-grey morality. She's the one always goes on about how heroes have a responsibility to the people, about how they literally and physically have no choice but to be heroes because lives depend on them. She's the one getting knocked down and then getting back up, and will keep doing so until the day she dies.

I say Paragon City has no ideals, because it is ideals I built Jun on. The great heroes of the past were her inspiration, and she will do everything she can to be an inspiration to others, even if she's probably younger than Penelope Yin. And that's how it should be. When people see a little girl bleeding from gunshot wounds, beaten and broken stand up and keep fighting, then they SHOULD be inspired to do the same. They SHOULD be inspired to put their differences aside, they SHOULD be inspired to put their personal tragedies on hold and do the right thing. Because no-one else could. The job of a hero isn't easy, but that's exactly why the people who do it are heroes. Because they take on this job that's full of pain, heartache and horror, and they do it anyway, so that others who are less capable of protecting themselves don't have to.

In an idealistic world, Jun would be an amazing hero worthy of admiration and praise. The trouble is that with every new Issue, the world of City of Heroes becomes less and less idealistic, turning more and more grim and gritty. For now, that sort of passion for the calling of the hero still works, but how long will it be before a hero like Jun will be expected to get shot and bleed out in a gutter when it's proven that enthusiasm for the right thing just gets you killed? How long before our heroes start realising that idealism is an outdated tradition in a world where nice guys finish last?

City of Heroes used to be a good world. Not ideal, obviously. Crime, drama, tragedy and more still took place. But at the end of the day, the world always gave me the sense that if you just do your best, if you're just a really nice person, if you fight hard enough and your ideals are good enough, you will eventually succeed and everything will be OK. It was an uplifting place I came to when I felt the real world wasn't fair, or when it felt like no good deed goes unpunished in my day-to-day life.

City of Heroes used to have morals I could aspire to even outside of the game. It taught me that being a nice, dedicated person was a good thing. It taught me that even one person doing his best can make a difference. I want those days back. I want to get back the days when a hero with nothing more than the guts to do what's right and a good attitude was already well on the way to success.

I want the happy City of Heroes back, and it's only getting sadder and more depressing, instead.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I want the happy City of Heroes back, and it's only getting sadder and more depressing, instead.
Well, that's what happened to the comicbooks. My breaking point with DC was what happened to Sue Dibny, who was a funny, happy character along with her husband and the group they usually appeared with.


In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I don't disagree with that. It's something I've been asking for for years now. I just didn't want it to be at the cost turning the Freedom Phalanx into incompetent horrible people unworthy of respect. I wanted it to be done by praising us, not dismantling them. It's the method of doing this that irks me.

Here's a little example. When Manticore and Liberty were arguing and she told him in no uncertain terms that if he doesn't leave, she WILL fight him, I was genuinely excited. I KNOW Miss Liberty can snap the guy in half with one hand. I've fought her, I know what she can do. Even in her worst moment, I can still respect her power. And even in her worst moment, I can still at least understand her conduct. Again, she comes off as the most reasonable of them all.

But Manticore screws up repeatedly, acts like a dick, then attacks his friends. I get the impression the only reason he didn't shoot an arrow at Liberty was because he knew he couldn't beat her, so he went to get backup. And the Statesman just leaves his friends hanging, to get picked off one by one.

I get that we were supposed to be put on an even level with the Freedom Phalanx, put above them, even. But we didn't have to reduce them to... To THIS to do it. That's like certain comic book writers repeatedly trying to "bring Superman down," to make him more of a jerk, make him kill people and so forth, because he's too good and too pure and not interesting enough.

The Freedom Phalanx used to be the benchmark, the best of the best, the veteran heroes who've already saved the world many times over, the people we aspire to be like. They used to be the people that, when we finally got to be on their level and fight alongside or against them, it really felt like we were finally playing in the big leagues. Now... Now the Freedom Phalanx is not a lot better than the Shining Stars.

We should be elevated above them not have them reduced in stature to below us.

I totally agree with your points here and the writing's been taking a tumble for a while now. To be fair, it's often tougher to meet our expectations than to churn out what we've gotten thus far, but there doesn't seem to be much effort put into a lot of it. It's production-line stuff, churned out to address the Content issue, without the Quality being considered - which is rather surprising in that the rest of the game seems to be getting distinct and high quality upgrades.

It seems to me, somebody's coming up with an idea for a story, and throwing it out there and it's not being challenged until it gets to us - there's an apparent and obviously distinct lack of editorial control.



"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Personal note time, ignore if you don't care about my mentality behind this.

I may have made the situation worse for myself for one simple reason - I just got done writing "The Rise of a Hero," a story arc about Jun, the little girl that could which I'm playing right now, which both depicts her rise to prominence and sets her character up a one of the most dedicated, stubborn, uncompromising heroes I have ever made.

Jun is the girl I wanted to have hit Aaron Thiery in the mouth when he started talking about how the city had to be hurt for heroes to wake up, because she would never put people in danger under any circumstances. She's the one who shut down the Centre's "radio" mid-sentence because she doesn't care how much he does to reign Requiem in when his soldiers are still murdering people. She's the one who takes the Hero option at every opportunity without a second thought because that's the right thing to do.

Unwittingly, I wrote Jun to be the Naruto of my character roster. That is to say, she's the loud, brash kid who yells at adults having a crisis of conscience and punches people who try to argue for a grey-and-grey morality. She's the one always goes on about how heroes have a responsibility to the people, about how they literally and physically have no choice but to be heroes because lives depend on them. She's the one getting knocked down and then getting back up, and will keep doing so until the day she dies.

I say Paragon City has no ideals, because it is ideals I built Jun on. The great heroes of the past were her inspiration, and she will do everything she can to be an inspiration to others, even if she's probably younger than Penelope Yin. And that's how it should be. When people see a little girl bleeding from gunshot wounds, beaten and broken stand up and keep fighting, then they SHOULD be inspired to do the same. They SHOULD be inspired to put their differences aside, they SHOULD be inspired to put their personal tragedies on hold and do the right thing. Because no-one else could. The job of a hero isn't easy, but that's exactly why the people who do it are heroes. Because they take on this job that's full of pain, heartache and horror, and they do it anyway, so that others who are less capable of protecting themselves don't have to.

In an idealistic world, Jun would be an amazing hero worthy of admiration and praise. The trouble is that with every new Issue, the world of City of Heroes becomes less and less idealistic, turning more and more grim and gritty. For now, that sort of passion for the calling of the hero still works, but how long will it be before a hero like Jun will be expected to get shot and bleed out in a gutter when it's proven that enthusiasm for the right thing just gets you killed? How long before our heroes start realising that idealism is an outdated tradition in a world where nice guys finish last?

City of Heroes used to be a good world. Not ideal, obviously. Crime, drama, tragedy and more still took place. But at the end of the day, the world always gave me the sense that if you just do your best, if you're just a really nice person, if you fight hard enough and your ideals are good enough, you will eventually succeed and everything will be OK. It was an uplifting place I came to when I felt the real world wasn't fair, or when it felt like no good deed goes unpunished in my day-to-day life.

City of Heroes used to have morals I could aspire to even outside of the game. It taught me that being a nice, dedicated person was a good thing. It taught me that even one person doing his best can make a difference. I want those days back. I want to get back the days when a hero with nothing more than the guts to do what's right and a good attitude was already well on the way to success.

I want the happy City of Heroes back, and it's only getting sadder and more depressing, instead.
Or you can have your character be the shining star during these tragic events

I like to think my main is much like you described. She fights to protect those who can't protect themselves. She fights to stop the bad people from doing bad.

She might be expected to be shot and killed for that enthusiasm, but that's when she defies those expectations and gets back up.

Quote from Angel Season Five, ""Heroes don't accept the world the way it is. They fight it."

Perfect quote for those type of heroes (and one of a few quotes I like to use for my main)...while the other heroes are getting shot down and dying in the gutter because they gave up, your character gets back up and shows the world she can fight against such odds.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

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Originally Posted by MisterMagpie View Post
Well, that's what happened to the comicbooks. My breaking point with DC was what happened to Sue Dibny, who was a funny, happy character along with her husband and the group they usually appeared with.
Identity Crisis, right? Ugh... I may have brought up something about that recently

You know... People always get on my case for saying City of Heroes shouldn't "limit" itself to comic books, retorting with explanations of how comic books are a lot more diverse than I believe they are. And these people are probably right, but again - City of Heroes isn't joined at the hip to Marvel and DC like some sort of grotesque Siamese triplet. The excuse that "Well, that's comic books for ya!" that's usually given for bad writing, bad continuity and pointless character deaths is part of the reason why my tolerance has gone lower and lower over the years, and why it's pretty much at rock bottom right about now. Because, no matter how you spin it, that's an explanation for why out stories end up bad when they could have been good, instead.

Like I said, storytelling is one of my passions, and it kills me to see City of Heroes brought down this path because comic books. Are. WEEEEIRD! That's why I've been so vehement about arguing that City of Heroes is not a comic book, nor a comic book simulator. Not to say that comic books are bad or that the game should diverge from them, but to insist that City of Heroes should be its own entity, driven by its own story and working towards its own success. The game does not need to parrot comic books. Comic books in general are not universally good. Some are good, some are bad, some are Bimbos in Time.

City of Heroes has plenty of problems of its own that stem from it being a game under constant development. The last thing we need is to drag in the problems of the comic book industry to add to the pile. And, no, it's not charming when garbled continuity produces utter nonsense just because hack comic book writers can't keep their act together. The failures of another genre shouldn't be copied over to this game, is what I'm saying.

There's room in City of Heroes for high drama and "life is tough" lessons, but I strongly disagree that that's what it should be ABOUT. This is, at the end of the day, "City of Heroes, where YOU are the hero!"

---

Entirely separate is the issue of good writing for villains. I have a lot to say about that that is only tangentially related to my talk of heroes. I just don't think it's on-topic for this thread. Suffice it to say that if I want content for heroes that puts a wide smile on my face, then I want content for villains that gives me an evil grin. And I don't want either kind of content to make me sick for having played through it.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker View Post
We should be elevated above them not have them reduced in stature to below us.

I totally agree with your points here and the writing's been taking a tumble for a while now. To be fair, it's often tougher to meet our expectations than to churn out what we've gotten thus far, but there doesn't seem to be much effort put into a lot of it. It's production-line stuff, churned out to address the Content issue, without the Quality being considered - which is rather surprising in that the rest of the game seems to be getting distinct and high quality upgrades.

It seems to me, somebody's coming up with an idea for a story, and throwing it out there and it's not being challenged until it gets to us - there's an apparent and obviously distinct lack of editorial control.
Or they're listening to the other half of the player base, who want to see heroes fall, see some sort of realistic (and thusly in their mind terrible) ending to stories, because good things never happen.

Of course, this current storyline could just be their way of taking Jack out of the game entirely...I mean Statesman...so it was more about that, than what everyone says they're looking for.

Or it could just be the villains are suppossed to win this basically co-op storyline.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
Or you can have your character be the shining star during these tragic events
Of course That is the one saving grace, and the reason why I like the actual story behind the events. Everyone is somehow incapacitated, and Jun is the only one left who can help. Even if she's not at their level, this is her big moment to step up and defy the odds. That makes for a GOOD story, I'm not questioning that at all.

It's what has to be done to the characters to achieve that which really disturbs me, and I see it as much as a sign of things to come as just a one-off story. The Freedom Phalanx used to be the last of the "classic" heroes built on, essentially, Truth, Justice and the American Way. And I liked that, even if I'm not American, myself. It bothers me that they had to be defaced in a manner that they cannot recover from to resume their place as such, because... It transpires that they never WERE that ideal of heroism to begin with. We never HAD such an ideal for heroism. Even the Statesman, the long-standing true good hero, the face of the company, as it were, is revealed to not be that great of a hero anyway, and to be looking for an out.

It concerns me that the world is growing less idealistic and more cynical, and the future for characters like yours and mine seems grim. Well, "grim" in the sense that we'll be forced into making morally questionable vigilante choices if we want to progress, most likely in some relation to the Well of the Furies, that great bottleneck of character development.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
Of course That is the one saving grace, and the reason why I like the actual story behind the events. Everyone is somehow incapacitated, and Jun is the only one left who can help. Even if she's not at their level, this is her big moment to step up and defy the odds. That makes for a GOOD story, I'm not questioning that at all.

It's what has to be done to the characters to achieve that which really disturbs me, and I see it as much as a sign of things to come as just a one-off story. The Freedom Phalanx used to be the last of the "classic" heroes built on, essentially, Truth, Justice and the American Way. And I liked that, even if I'm not American, myself. It bothers me that they had to be defaced in a manner that they cannot recover from to resume their place as such, because... It transpires that they never WERE that ideal of heroism to begin with. We never HAD such an ideal for heroism. Even the Statesman, the long-standing true good hero, the face of the company, as it were, is revealed to not be that great of a hero anyway, and to be looking for an out.

It concerns me that the world is growing less idealistic and more cynical, and the future for characters like yours and mine seems grim. Well, "grim" in the sense that we'll be forced into making morally questionable vigilante choices if we want to progress, most likely in some relation to the Well of the Furies, that great bottleneck of character development.
If by vigilante choices you mean, no B&E, my character might be there already. >_> But then, Spider-Man/Girl tend to do B&E and I think of them as usually non-gritty heroes.

If you mean the games deffinition of vigilante, yeah, no, don't want to see all characters become like that. :/

But I might suggest waiting for the next big story arc, Sam. I think a lot of this story arc was more about them shaking up the ranks and giving villains a big win.


BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection

 

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
But I might suggest waiting for the next big story arc, Sam. I think a lot of this story arc was more about them shaking up the ranks and giving villains a big win.
This is my impression as well.


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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
The "Who Will Die?" storyline could have been told in a way that uplifted the Freedom Phalanx and finally showed us exactly what it was that made them the world's premier heroes, with us right alongside them, proving that we are now their equals. Instead, all this showed is that the Freedom Phalanx are not worthy of being the world's heroes.
Consider just the isolated point as to how Statesman dies. He arrogantly WALKS into the obvious trap like a rookie chump, and upon the exhortation of his dead wife, he does not even struggle and just gives up and dies, letting the man who killed his daughter absorb the powers of Zeus. What is to admire about any of that??

Statesman's backstory was one of continually facing choices, but he ultimately chose to "do the right thing," even at great personal cost, and saved untold numbers of people. If Statesman was marked to die by the Devs, could we not at least have had a story that upheld the ideals he had previously demonstrated?

Just for a kick-off, why not have a couple of changes to the cutscene? Some plausible reason for Statesman to encounter the trap so that is not just right there screaming "TRAP" and he strolls in. Perhaps with Sister Psyche down, Wade could now pull off an illusion of Ms. Liberty captured and States HAS to brave the trap to save her. And even then, why not toss Statesman a bone or two? Since we were dialoguing anyway, Wade could be amazed that Statesman appears to be be pushing through, that anyone else would already be dead, that his Master Plan may go awry. The player could hear Statesman's thoughts that this is unlike anything he has ever encountered, it is real, searing, murderous pain, but he cannot give up, he must rescue "Jessica..." but he is literally burnt out as he finally reaches the illusion and collapses, a charred husk... and as Statesman dies, feeling that he has utterly failed, THEN Monica could assure him that his sacrifice will actually set in motion the defeat of Wade because another who had previously been in the background would now step forward to save the world as he had so often... there was nothing more he could have done, that he has done and given more than anyone would have ever thought of Marcus Cole... their granddaughter is actually alive, and will know what he did to "save" her and it will change how she thinks of him... take heart and comfort, it is the end of his burdens and the beginning of something else, this is indeed the time he was fated to join her. Something like that; I dunno. Troy Hickman can do this sort of stuff in his sleep and have it be GREAT. That is just one idea about how to do it and I am certainly not Shakespeare.

I could still admire a Statesman that died in that sort of manner. How difficult would it have been to do something like that?? His current send-off is hardly admirable at all.


"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"

"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."

 

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Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
If you mean the games deffinition of vigilante, yeah, no, don't want to see all characters become like that. :/
Yeah, that's what I mean. I didn't use to have such a negative outlook on vigilantes - hell, Vigilante 8 used to be my favourite game way back when - but the way City of Heroes defines the term, it's one step removed from outright villain, and definitely square in the territory of the *******. And I worry that's where we're going with the Well and other things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandX View Post
But I might suggest waiting for the next big story arc, Sam. I think a lot of this story arc was more about them shaking up the ranks and giving villains a big win.
Of course, but I've been in "waiting mode" since First Ward, if not since Going Rogue itself. All of First Ward is one big downer story that ends up with Katie Douglass tossed in a tank. Then we have the SSAs, which so far have Alexis put in a fridge, Psyche put in a coma and the Statesman put in a casket. And that's ignoring all the downer stuff that took part in Praetoria proper.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Melancton View Post
I could still admire a Statesman that died in that sort of manner. How difficult would it have been to do something like that?? His current send-off is hardly admirable at all.
In short, for him to die like a hero, having done all he could abut all he had to give was just not enough. That's a hero I, too, can respect. Is that too much to ask?


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
In short, for him to die like a hero, having done all he could abut all he had to give was just not enough. That's a hero I, too, can respect. Is that too much to ask?
No, it's not ... but then, that's exactly what I get out of the intercutting scene with Marcus and Monica and Statesman is not only having his life burned away out of him, but also his powers stolen. There's a realization on Statesman's part that not only has he been PLAYED, he's also overmatched. He's given an opportunity for his "Final Last Words" and to the end, he plays The Hero ... insisting that even if he should fall, Darrin will never succeed ... which sounds trite (as Darrin scoffs) but is also the true core of Statesman's identity.

In the end, he faced death the same way he faced life ... WITHOUT HATRED.



There is a tangential point to all of SSA 5 that I'd like to point out. It's pretty clearly stated that "The Trap" used on Statesman is the same one which destroyed BOTH Imperious and Romulus in Cimeroran Times. Yet here, it's only being used to take out Statesman. There is no implication of any kind that Lord Recluse is simultaneously affected here ... meaning that once word gets out (because the player was THERE), old Lord Recluse will NOT be falling for the same trap!

Because out of all of the Incarnates that we know about, Lord Recluse is the only one who FIGHTS the Well of the Furies! Even though he walks "the dark path" he is not about to let the Well "forever dominate your destiny, consume you it will!" ... as it did Tyrant (and his apprentices). Make no mistake ... he wants the *POWER* that the Well gives him, but he very much doesn't want the Strings Attached that comes with that.

And Lord Recluse did build THE WEB ... which is the whole focus of the Statesman Task Force. Kinda makes you wonder what sort of trap Lord Recluse would lay for the man who slew his (former) Best Friend (and brother-in-law).



And then there's the Well of the Furies itself. Will it "allow" Darrin Wade to summon/merge with Rularuu and consume/destroy the entirety of the human race, throughout the dimensions (since Primal is the nexus, and has Portal Corp operational)? After all, if humanity is no more ... will the Well ... dry up? That would ironically put the Well of the Furies in a position of being motivated to "stop" Darrin Wade from succeeding in his plan ... which could get ... interesting. Because absolutely NOTHING that has been revealed so far indicates that Darrin Wade knows, or understands, that the Well of the Furies is a Force to be reckoned with in its own right. He may have been able to "game out" the motivations and actions of the Freedom Phalanx so as to anticipate (and force!) their every move ... but I don't see him knowing about, or how to deal with, the Well of the Furies. That then leads to a Wild Card circumstance, where the Well itself could "choose" in a way that Darrin Wade never foresaw or anticipated ... leaving YOU there to enforce/support the Will of the Well of the Furies.



Darrin Wade: "Mighty Rularuu, JOIN WITH ME!"

Well of the Furies: "Hmm, you seem to have violated the terms of your End User License Agreement for being Zeus. Your powers are hereby revoked and rendered Null and Void. Have a nice day."

Well of the Furies has Debilitated Darrin Wade.

Darrin Wade: "Wait ... what?"

Rularuu snacks on the offering of a Distracted (and extremely mortal) Darrin Wade.

Darrin Wade has been Defeated by Rularuu.
The "hospital" Darrin Wade goes to is NOT A NICE PLACE.

$Character: "Okay Portal Corp, do your thing and seal that Rift!"

(the rest of the cutscene involves a lot of flashpots and really big spinning MAGNETS resulting in a blinding whiteout flash of light)


It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

 

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Originally Posted by Redlynne View Post
There is a tangential point to all of SSA 5 that I'd like to point out. It's pretty clearly stated that "The Trap" used on Statesman is the same one which destroyed BOTH Imperious and Romulus in Cimeroran Times. Yet here, it's only being used to take out Statesman. There is no implication of any kind that Lord Recluse is simultaneously affected here ... meaning that once word gets out (because the player was THERE), old Lord Recluse will NOT be falling for the same trap!
I didn't interpret it that way. Wade needed an incarnate's blood to kill another incarnate, and that's why he murdered Miss Liberty. Now, in the future, we players are also going to need an incarnate's blood to depower (and sadly, kill) Wade, which is where I believe Lord Recluse will step in, giving up his own life in honor of his friend.

Who will die? I'm beginning to suspect it will be Lord Recluse.


 

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Originally Posted by Zemblanity View Post
I didn't interpret it that way. Wade needed an incarnate's blood to kill another incarnate, and that's why he murdered Miss Liberty. Now, in the future, we players are also going to need an incarnate's blood to depower (and sadly, kill) Wade, which is where I believe Lord Recluse will step in, giving up his own life in honor of his friend.

Who will die? I'm beginning to suspect it will be Lord Recluse.
I don't think so. There are major implications if Recluse dies. For example Ghost Widow. Her spirit is bound to the Arachnos organinzation as whole, if Arachnos dies which very well could if Recluse dies, she dies. Scirocco, was not always evil might shift alignment. Then imagine Grandville without Recluse. It's like Apokolips without Darkseid. Grandville would be a site of civil war, certainly between Mako and Black Scorpion who despise one another. Sure, maybe The Weaver returns...who knows. You really NEED Recluse there just keep Grandville civil...ish.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zemblanity View Post
Who will die? I'm beginning to suspect it will be Lord Recluse.
Recluse is redside and redside hasn't suffered so much as a scratch yet so I don't think it'd be him.

My money would be on the recently recovered Hero 1, the Statesman from the other side of the pond.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redlynne View Post
And then there's the Well of the Furies itself. Will it "allow" Darrin Wade to summon/merge with Rularuu and consume/destroy the entirety of the human race, throughout the dimensions?
Honestly? I hope the answer is "no." I've had a longstanding beef with the Well of the Furies and how it's described as THE source of all powers and omnipotent and so on. Having Wade run afoul of the Well and defy its power would be an implicit admission that the Well's power CAN be defied in direct confrontation, and then all the other God Mode Sue storytelling around it unravels like a cardigan. I don't actually like a story where Wade kills the Statesman, takes his powers AND escapes a Karma backlash, but for the sake of freeing player characters of the shackles of the Well, I can live with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zemblanity View Post
Now, in the future, we players are also going to need an incarnate's blood to depower (and sadly, kill) Wade, which is where I believe Lord Recluse will step in, giving up his own life in honor of his friend.
Don't they sell that over the counter at Wentworth's Fine Consignments?


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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I'm not going to spoil anything, but given the current/future content, I'll at least debunk the theory that Recluse is going to 'lay down his life for his friend'. Not going to happen, unless some other random, wonky plot-things happen afterwords. However, I fully expect him to bring all eight arms of his spidery wrath down on Wade. It's like some random upstart killing Batman, then parading around in his costume while the Joker watches; ol' Mr. Richter isn't going to take that well at all (pun not intended, but I'll take credit for it).

Also, I'll throw in my voice for the SSAs showing the heroes in a more triumphant light in the second set. They had their big fall with 'Who Will Die?', now they've got to pick themselves back up and carry on the good fight.


Global - @El D

Servers - Protector

 

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My biggest critique of the story is that it's too rushed. That may sound like a "You've got to be kidding me" thing to say about a story that's progressing at one chapter a month, but the frequency of publication is not really the problem.

It's that the story is all payoff and no buildup.

The biggest culprit is Statesman's final thoughts. Maybe they WOULD be sweet and tender and tear-jerking, except that we never actually have any build-up where we get to know Statesman well enough to appreciate that he feels responsible for the entire world as if only he can save it. We never see that he goes off alone to find and face Wade because of his fear that whatever enemy would purposely bait him like that is one that might put the entire Phalanx at risk. We don't see any of the planning and manipulation with a mysterious hand behind events that leaves us wondering what is about to happen and who is behind it. (Maybe more accurate to say that we don't get enough of it.) We don't see Alexis Cole-Duncan meeting with the Phalanx and/or the FBSA and acknowledging the danger but choosing to walk into it anyway because the potential reward is worth the risk.

Basically, all of that "stuff" that people keep inventing to explain why the story has progressed this way when people complain about the holes. We get all of the payoff, the climaxes of the story with none of the buildup of suspense that normally precedes any of them.

That's the biggest problem I have with people who say "Oh, just shut up and suspend your disbelief already!" We're not talking about suspension of belief, we're talking about story-telling.

In an ideal world, this story would have weekly episodes and episode 1 of "Who will die?" would have been the climax of the whole first arc. Statesman's death would be the climax of arc 2. The rise of Godlike Wade would be arc 3. Throughout all of it, we would be seeing the whole story and getting the buildup of suspense that would fill the holes, show us the motivations, give us a reason to "suspend disbelief", show us some kind of growth or at least expansion of the characters involved.

As it stands, we have to imagine all of the substance of the story, ourselves. When we are left with that, we're left with 10,000 different versions of the story and a lot of hand-waving.

The Phalanx appears incompetent because there isn't any story to justify why any of the events are happening. We just get a lot of Kodak moments. "We'll have a battle of law vs chaos by having you fight Manticore!" "We'll have you fight inside of Sister Psyche's mind! Cool!" "We'll have you 'investigate' Wade's lair!" "We'll have you see Statesman's last thoughts!"

It's just one event after another instead of a cohesive narrative, IMO.

Maybe that's the most they had time for. If so, I hope that they take that lesson away from this experience and spend the time and resources to really make the next SSA be something completely fleshed out and worth experiencing as a story.