Where the hoo-ha did "Toon" come from?
By
80sBaby,
Posted on: 2012-01-09 24:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
For anyone who has read Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game (first published in 1977), a toon was a squad of soldiers at the battleschool.
Liberty Server (@enderbean)
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#1460 Hometown Rivalry
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That is an awesome quote.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
One of my all time favorite quotes...
"Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." - C.S.Lewis |
In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
I've used "toon" a few times in other games (but it feels dirty to do so)
But I'm more likely to say "I'm switching to my [class/race name]" or "I'll go on my alt/main"
The use of "toon" in this game may be because people came to CoH from other games where the term was more common.
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Keep in mind that you're talking about a face-to-face discussion that no players witnessed. It's true that I used the word "casual" to describe " It was referenced from then on in during some of the early posts by Developers and Marketing Personnel." but that's because any such references undoubtedly WERE casual in nature.|
Originally Posted by Cathulhu
Do you really think that the use of a term by multiple Red Names and the adoption of the word by the head of the company in the early days had no impact on weather the word was used and accepted by at least some of the players?
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For what it's worth, I was around the forums for the "alpha/beta" days and I don't recall any particular reference to toons by the rednames. Not that I particularly WOULD recall it but just saying, it wasn't some major thing, nor was it something that became widely adopted by the players at that time so that it became memorable.
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| Surely there were many sources of the word but the adoption by not one but MULTIPLE Devs of the word “Toon” when commenting in MULTIPLE Posts should not just be hand waved away. Without at least some counter evidence this appears to be at least ONE of the answers to the question “How the word Toon migrated to CoH” |
However, if you want to restrict discussion to "toons in CoH" then sure, I've got no problem with anyone trying to track down a "toon zero" who was the first person to say it. I don't think you CAN track that person down but if someone wants to give Jack Emmert credit, I don't really care. The word was a part of the MMO lexicon before CoH was created. That's WHY Jack or anyone else would have used it.
My feeling about the topic is that no single person or single group is responsible for "toon" in CoH. It came here along with the 250,000+ subscribers that made up the original subscription base. Just like "mob" and "aggro" and "hate" and "glass cannon" and "hp" and "mana" and dozens of other words that were and are a standard part of the MMO lexicon.
It got here by osmosis. That's the answer, if there's any "right" answer. If you doubt that then remind yourself that the populations of players who read the forums is only a few percentage points. Most of the players who might be saying "toon" never had any exposure to any redname posts to pick the term up from.
Feel free to disagree, though. I'm okay with that.
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A shortening of "platoon". Much like some people refer to one of our ATs as a "troller".|
Originally Posted by enderbean
For anyone who has read Orson Scott Card's Ender's Game (first published in 1977), a toon was a squad of soldiers at the battleschool.
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--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
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Some hours after responding, I began to fear I had misinterpreted you in this very manner. Apologies!|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Holy incorrect leap there, Wing_Leader!
Hehe, I do absolutely understand what you are talking about, but please, spare the "tragic" commentary, because I only said that my usage of it seems to have dropped off... And believe me, after I typed that I realized I'd have to remedy that... Still, I did not say that I stopped using it and I certainly didn't stop due to any peer pressure. |
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
However, I do not see having the choice of character, toon and avatar as anti-intellectualism.
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And while I understand a healthy skepticism towards "trying too hard to appear all grown up," I don't think that applies to a desire to prevent the undermining of whatever little credibility video games have gained in recent years, as an acceptible adult pasttime, by slang that tends to reinforce the wider social prejudices.
And before someone, again, asks why we should care about that credibility, they should look into the ocean of legal questions MMOs and virtual worlds have opened up, and think long and hard about how the broader social view of these things shapes the laws that govern them. MMOs have ceased to be frivolous pasttimes "just for kids" for many years, but the rest of the world, which scratches its collective heads wondering why anyone would spend so much time "playing with toons", doesn't realize that. For anyone who doesn't think any of this is important, I recommend an absolutely fascinating book, which you can read for free as a PDF, called "Virtual Justice" by Greg Lastowka (it was my favorite read of 2010, and I liked it so much I read it again last year).
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Zero worries! And thanks! |
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
Some hours after responding, I began to fear I had misinterpreted you in this very manner. Apologies!
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It honestly gave me a good, genuine laugh and I was not offended (as I could certainly see the jump and it is not like we really know each other).
They're big issues of mine as well, so I understand... and we are all susceptible, now and then, after all - no matter how far above it we may think we are, hehe.
Also, I'll have to check out that read!
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
And a little bit more of levity...
This thread inspired a new... character... concept:
iToon
Bringing you the slapstick zaniness you'd expect, through the sophisticated, state-of-the-art modern technology you can trust!
And customize the colors to your delight!
I was toying with Grav/Trick Arrows (along with any and all Temporary Powers) for the hilarity of Propel and the feel of pulling anything and everything out as desired... Including gravity-defying and reality manipulating gags!
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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You do whatever you please on your teams and I'll do what i like on mine. By the way so let me see if I have this straight. A cartoon is a drawing or series of drawing that act out a story. Now in their day Disney spent months or more drawing frame after frame after frame to create such classics as Sleeping Beauty, Fantasia, and Snow White. In more recent history the computer has cut the time require to animate films but the process is still fairly similar. |
Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
Speak for yourself. The ones I left in there have been making me fantasize about doing Jack Bauer-like things to people since before "Jack Bauer" was a thing.
Also, a "cartoon" is a drawn picture, or a story told using drawn pictures. The characters contained therein are "cartoon characters." Calling Fry from Futurama a "cartoon" is like calling Jack Bauer from 24 a "TV show." In my opinion. |
Now lets go to the Super Hero Comic book where this game got its basis. Each frame in a Superman comic book is a SINGLE picture used to tell a story so can we then assume that Superman is a Cartoon? Especially since at some point do to it's popularility the comic was adapted for television and became an action cartoon. Now we have shows like the Dark Knight tha again use compuetrs to speed up the animation process but still create multi frames to moves characters. And then finally lets go to this and any other on line, off line, or arcade game where a program uses pixals to generate an image .. the character we create in the costume creator .. and they move it through a series of actions to attack and defeat enemies.
And the difference between that and an animated cartoon is what again?
MY original point was its a GAME and when people put too much emphasis on any part of it they SUCK the life/fun right out.
I personally don't care one way or the other if a player decides to refer to himself as a character or a toon as long as he can do two things when he teams with me..
1. Listen to the instructions given by whover is leading so we actually succed and reap the rewards at the end.
2. Plays to the best of his or her ability
Other than that.. my motto is have fun.
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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A super rabbit pulling tricks out of a hat with Gravity's propel power. |
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
And a little bit more of levity...
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*Pauses*
*Thinks*
*Opens mouth*
*Closes mouth*
You know, this thread may continue on if it likes, but it will never do better than this.
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
1. Listen to the instructions given by whover is leading so we actually succed and reap the rewards at the end.
2. Plays to the best of his or her ability Other than that.. my motto is have fun. |
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
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Apparently you stopped reading after the first sentence of the second paragraph you quoted, so let me sum up the point again:|
Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
You do whatever you please on your teams and I'll do what i like on mine. By the way so let me see if I have this straight. A cartoon is a drawing or series of drawing that act out a story. Now in their day Disney spent months or more drawing frame after frame after frame to create such classics as Sleeping Beauty, Fantasia, and Snow White. In more recent history the computer has cut the time require to animate films but the process is still fairly similar.
Now lets go to the Super Hero Comic book where this game got its basis. Each frame in a Superman comic book is a SINGLE picture used to tell a story so can we then assume that Superman is a Cartoon? Especially since at some point do to it's popularility the comic was adapted for television and became an action cartoon. Now we have shows like the Dark Knight tha again use compuetrs to speed up the animation process but still create multi frames to moves characters. And then finally lets go to this and any other on line, off line, or arcade game where a program uses pixals to generate an image .. the character we create in the costume creator .. and they move it through a series of actions to attack and defeat enemies. And the difference between that and an animated cartoon is what again? |
There's a difference between a cartoon and a cartoon character.
Sleeping Beauty -- the movie -- is a cartoon. Princess Aurora -- the main character in (Disney's version of) the story and often referred to as "Sleeping Beauty" -- is a cartoon character.
Superman -- the comic book -- is a cartoon. Superman -- the main character featured in that comic book -- is a cartoon character.
The drawings themselves are cartoons, the characters they depict are not. A photo of me doesn't make me a photo, it makes me the subject of one.
And again, I say... enjoy your Snuggie.
FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
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My point was that the word would have migrated over without that incident. It had already been established in MMO communities, sadly. No single event "made it relevant" here. Aside from the creation of the game as an MMO. |
Originally Posted by Cathulhu
Maybe you should reread the OP's question and the post I referenced before commenting.
The OPs Question was at the time I posted and still is... "What I meant, and what people seem to have missed, is how it became a relevant term to this game, or alternatively to whatever other game it may have spawned from, and how it migrated to us." Notice it is a multi part question one part being "and how it migrated to us." My response was in reference to Lolipup who posted a private message from the Devs informing us as to where they think the name came from and why. Do you feel that information from developers of the game in question on the subject in question is not relevant or is incorrect in answering that part of the question? Post from Lolipup |
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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Since I was the person that brought up "avatar" sounding pretentious, I would like to clarify:|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
Nor do I. But any populist attitude that would accuse someone who uses a word like avatar of being pompous is a symptom of anti-intellectualism.
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I don't give two squats what you call your virtual Barbie dolls. You can, in fact, call them virtual Barbie dolls and I wouldn't bat an eye. Call them chars, characters, charas, toons, avatars, whatever the heck you want to call them. I will never, ever roll my eyes at you or cringe at you for what you call them. (Please note the difference between you and I: I don't judge you based on what you call your virtual Barbie dolls. You judge me, though, completely out of hand.)
I don't call my virtual Barbie dolls "avatars" because in my mind, and for reasons I have no idea where it came from, "avatar" is a lot more formal a word than what I would apply to a virtual Barbie doll. The internet is casual, and for some reason - to me - "avatar" is not a casual word.
edit: I also want to point out that I said "pretentious", not "pompous". There is a slight but distinct difference between the words, which you should know if you really are a word nerd.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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One must have great Virtue to call him or herself an avatar.
@Captain-Electric � Detective Marvel � The Sapien Spider � Moravec Man � The Old Norseman
Dark-Eyes � Doctor Serpentine � Stonecaster � Skymaiden � The Blue Jaguar
Guide to Altitis � A Comic for New Players � The Lore Project � Intro to extraterrestrials in CoH
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You might as well call your virtual Barbie dolls avatars because that is precisely what they are. The word avatar isn't slang, it isn't a codeword used by members of a subculture to identify each other, and it is neither casual nor formal. It is simply a word with an accepted meaning amongst those who spend a lot of time--sometimes professionally--talking and writing about virtual worlds (of which MMOs are a type). It is even written into judicial commentary, making it de facto "legal speak" in some contexts.|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
I don't call my virtual Barbie dolls "avatars" because in my mind, and for reasons I have no idea where it came from, "avatar" is a lot more formal a word than what I would apply to a virtual Barbie doll. The internet is casual, and for some reason - to me - "avatar" is not a casual word.
edit: I also want to point out that I said "pretentious", not "pompous". There is a slight but distinct difference between the words, which you should know if you really are a word nerd. |
In order for that word, or users of that word, to be pretentious, they would have to be pretending to be something other than what they are. In what way is someone pretentious in using the word avatar? If they are using the word correctly, they aren't being pretentious they are merely being articulate.
And for the record, I wasn't responding to any of your posts; I apologize if you feel dragged into this. Someone else used the word pompous and I was responding to him.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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Which isn't uncommon or necessarily a fault. Would you have high expectations of a chess player who called the knights "horsies"? The impression one would get from such a thing might turn out to be wrong, but that doesn't mean one is wrong for having said expectations. If one presents themselves as immature by speaking in such a manner, then that's the image that a lot of people are going to form.|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
(Please note the difference between you and I: I don't judge you based on what you call your virtual Barbie dolls. You judge me, though, completely out of hand.)
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Deny it all you want, but EVERYBODY judges other people on immediate first impressions, and almost always on seemingly trivial things. The mark of a person's quality is how readily they're willing to re-assess that judgment down the line as more information is gained about the other person.
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To quote BSG, "all of this has happened before and it will happen again."
From alt.games.everquest, way back in May 11, 2004 -- http://groups.google.com/group/alt.g...7469b01826b265
@Texarkana
@Thexder
You guys don't call your characters Malibu Stacies?
you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you <3
I am surprised this turned into an argument. Though I prefer to call my characters... well... characters, I never saw the point to go nerd rage over it.
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Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
I am surprised this turned into an argument.
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@Demobot
Also on Steam
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I felt the same way when all of a sudden I started hearing the term adds to describe ambushes, mobs, or "additional" enemies. I have heard people use the word toon in this game for so many years that I didn't really think about it. I would assume that it comes from the word cartoon, obviously.|
Originally Posted by AkuTenshiiZero
Because nobody has asked within recent memory, and searching "toon" will get me nowhere.
There are alot of things about this game and it's players that drive me loopy. Catgirls, Fire/Kin roflfarmers, "Dark Lord Dark of Darkness" characters on blueside, to name a few. But there is one thing that has been slowly plucking at my nerves non-stop since I started my career of defeating enemies by bludgeoning them with my own health pool: People using the word "Toon". Maybe it's the childish, degrading nature of the term instantly calling to mind Bugs Bunny slapstick*, serving to remind me that I am in fact a 26 year old manchild playing a MMO instead of getting drunk and grunting at football games like a real man. I really can't explain why I hate the term, but I do know that I have never heard it used in any other game I've ever played. So far as I know, it's exclusive to CoX, which is pretty odd considering how universal MMO lingo usually is. And most of those terms can trace their roots back to either programming lingo or D&D lingo, "Toon" just seems so random and out-of-place to me. Where did it come from? --EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION-- I know the origin of the word toon. Roger Rabbit sits comfortably in my upper bracket of movie rankings. What I meant, and what people seem to have missed, is how it became a relevant term to this game, or alternatively to whatever other game it may have spawned from, and how it migrated to us. Like I said, you won't find people in may other MMOs using the word toon to describe their characters. And most terms have easy-to follow roots. "Proc" was just short for "procedure", describing a line of code which triggers and executes when certain parameters are met, and that term can easily be traced from WoW to everything else. "XP" is likewise easily traced to D&D, the grandfather of all modern RPGs, shorthand for "Experience". See what I'm getting at? Nowhere in CoX is there a word even similar to "Toon". It's not short for anything. It can't be traced to programming code, it can't be traced to D&D or WoW, it has no connection to anything related to CoX so how did it become so widespread? *Disclaimer: Bugs Bunny is a total BAMF and I mean no disrespect to the Almighty Rabbit. |
car·toon [ kaar tn ]
animated movie: a movie made using animation instead of live actors, especially a humorous film intended primarily for children
sequence of drawings: a sequence of drawings that tell a short story, published in a newspaper or magazine
satirical drawing: a humorous drawing published in a newspaper or magazine and commenting on a topical event or theme
Which is somewhat parallel to comics. A lot of comics and comic strips had cartoons and vice versa. But now it is just a common term so I don't really concern myself with it. I prefer to use proper terms when I can, such as the previously mentioned "character". But sometimes I catch myself using shorthand and abbreviations. Because I read it a lot, and it is just common. Or I am trying to type fast during a battle. Or just to accommodate the understanding of the person I am talking to.
Be sure to drink your
Meh, big deal, I use toon when the mood strikes me.
------->"Sic Semper Tyrannis"<-------
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I do NOW.
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Originally Posted by Party_Kake
You guys don't call your characters Malibu Stacies?
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In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
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That is too good of a quote to not save to my desktop.|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
One of my all time favorite quotes...
"Critics who treat 'adult' as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence. And in childhood and adolescence they are, in moderation, healthy symptoms. Young things ought to want to grow. But to carry on into middle life or even into early manhood this concern about being adult is a mark of really arrested development. When I was ten, I read fairy tales in secret and would have been ashamed if I had been found doing so. Now that I am fifty I read them openly. When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." - C.S.Lewis |
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
And a little bit more of levity...
This thread inspired a new... character... concept: iToon Bringing you the slapstick zaniness you'd expect, through the sophisticated, state-of-the-art modern technology you can trust! |
I sit in my zen of not being able to do anything right while simultaniously not being able to do anything wrong. Om. -CuppaJo
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
For whatever it is worth (and not to discount anything anyone has said), "toon" was used within the SWG playerbase in 2003. And the same debates and disagreements happened on those forums as have played out in this thread.
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan