Where the hoo-ha did "Toon" come from?
By
80sBaby,
Posted on: 2012-01-09 24:26 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Maybe you missed it "son", but this isn't about precision in language. It's about utility. And in this case, to some people the major difference between an MMO and something like Transformers: Beast Wars or Reboot is that THEY control the interaction of the characters on the screen.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
"Char" is just as short and FAR more accurate.
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This is close enough for "toon" to be easy and natural in usage.
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Basically use whatever floats your skirt up (regardless of your gender). As long as you're making yourself understood, our would-be overlords of grammatical usage can sit and spin.
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Originally Posted by Tenjoy
In our SG, usually we use the term "chara", which is, of course, a shortened version of the word "character".
10joy |
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Aww... where'd smug, "thanks for playing" Gob go? This new guy's just mean.|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
Shut up and let me play my own game, dammit.
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Look, I'm fine with letting people say it if that's their "thing." Mention it in-game, and while it might make some vein in my forehead that may or may not exist only in my imagination throb a little, I won't say anything about it. When I say something about it is when someone specifically asks for my thoughts on the subject.
Just like when some simpleton says "hella" or refers to scratching an itch as "itching myself." I'll let it go... right up until the point when someone asks for my thoughts on "hella" or using "itch" to refer to an action one performs instead of a sensation one experiences. Or if a discussion I'm already involved in turns to that.
And my thoughts are thus:
- It's not that much quicker or easier than using a real word. If five keystrokes is really the difference between life or death for you, chances are you shouldn't make any keystrokes until you're out of danger. Don't say "oh no, I'm about to run into that other car" or "meesa gonna die." Hit the brakes and then talk about it after the peril is no longer imminent.
- Anyone who says it sounds a little silly. Like an adult referring to their stomach as a "tummy." Every time you say it, there's a tiny part of me that wants to tell you to come back and talk to me again once you've mastered shapes and colors and what sound a duck makes, when you're ready for grown-up words.
I guess I'll just count myself lucky "shmooples" isn't easier to type than "toon" or everyone would be calling their characters that instead, regardless of how asinine it sounds.
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I use both "character" and "toon".
When I first started, someone saw me in the tutorial and was sort of giving me pointers about the game, terms, etc. I had never played an MMO, or any online game, for that matter. She referred to my character as a "toon", and so, I guess I saw it as the accepted nomenclature, and it stuck with me.
I agree with people mentioning the utility in-game. I don't think it's necessarily about laziness, so much as it is about speed of delivery. Doctor Roswell, you appear to take issue with the convenience as much as it being incorrect terminology. I wonder if you ever use "inf" instead of "influence"/"infamy"/"information"; "Posi" instead of "Positron"; "AV" in place of "Archvillain"; "Alt" instead of "alternative character"
That said, I don't like people using text-speak/chat-speak, what have you, outside of this game. If you're typing out an e-mail, or a message board post, chances are, you can use the real words with no detriment. My boss does it in e-mails and text messages, and it just grates me. "U" and "ur" bother me to no end. As do "c" for "see", "y?" for "why?" "b/c" for "because", etc. In-game or out-of-game.
I suppose it's hypocritical of me not to be bothered by game-related shorthand, but to be bothered by, er, "standard" online shorthand. If someone were to say "switching for Manti", I'd be okay with it; but if someone were to type "switching 4 Manti", I'd be bothered.
Thank you, Champion.
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My issue isn't with convenience; it's that "toon" is a ridiculous-sounding term. Convenience/efficiency is one of the excuses people use for perpetuating what I view as an idiotic pseudo-word similar to "hella."|
Originally Posted by Bramphousian
I agree with people mentioning the utility in-game. I don't think it's necessarily about laziness, so much as it is about speed of delivery. Doctor Roswell, you appear to take issue with the convenience as much as it being incorrect terminology. I wonder if you ever use "inf" instead of "influence"/"infamy"/"information"; "Posi" instead of "Positron"; "AV" in place of "Archvillain"; "Alt" instead of "alternative character"
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Look at it this way: "Poo" has even fewer letters than "toon," and they're right next to each other on the keyboard (plus closer to Enter), and there are only two unique letters to worry about. That's even easier than "toon"! Let's all start using that word for our characters instead! What's that you say? You say the difference in convenience, speed and efficiency is negligible, and we'd all sound like morons if we did that? So we should all use the "harder" one instead, despite the advantages of "poo"? And you'd probably think anyone who did say "poo" couldn't possibly be serious, just because that would be such a stupid word to use? Well, okay, if you're sure....
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Did you ever think some people use "toon" precisely because its use annoys some people? 
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Actually, they're "initialisms". <ducks>|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
The thing that's fingernails on a chalkboard to me are people who try to enunciate acronyms.
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I'm sure some people do.|
Originally Posted by Lothic
Did you ever think some people use "toon" precisely because its use annoys some people?
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But I'm equally sure they realize how childish and petty that would be, so I doubt that's the case with anyone involved in this thread, what with all the discussion of how grown-up the term "toon" is.
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Originally Posted by NuclearToast
Actually, they're "initialisms".
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An acronym, by definition, is a set of initials which is pronounced like a word. UNICEF and SHIELD are acronyms. FBI and WWE are not.
FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
I call'm toons, chars, whatsits, and whodats. I don't do it to annoy people, but if you come down on me for calling your toon a toon I'll just /ignore you, one star, and be on my merry way. /shrug.
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you don't pronounce them fibby and w-weh?
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Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
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True! That's another of my pedantic pet peeves. An acronym, by definition, is a set of initials which is pronounced like a word. UNICEF and SHIELD are acronyms. FBI and WWE are not. |
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They're actually F'bee and Wiwee. It's subtle, like the difference between Demmy Moore and D'mi Moore. Or Lindsay Lo-Han and Lindsay Lowwan.
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Originally Posted by Party_Kake
you don't pronounce them fibby and w-weh?
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This is going to happen to any language currently in-use by the modern world. I myself am still unsure what being happy has to do with homosexual feelings and/or actions. Where's the link? And this is coming from a gay man.|
Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
it's a shame that this other meaning for "twink" has been forgotten and replaced. A nice shorthand term for this problem seems worthwhile, but this late in the genre, I don't expect to ever see one.
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Or what we call sweet talking or flirting is what 'making love' used to mean. Now it means the physical act itself. And do people even use the term 'coquette' anymore to refer to a woman who is flirting? (I didn't even know the word existed until looking up Flirting on Wikipedia)
For better or worse language has changed and will continue to change just by virtue of it being used.
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The use of the word "Toon" in an MMO probably predates even EverQuest by a couple of years. The 2D MMORPG (or at least graphical MUD+) The Realm Online's personal characters are all referred to as Toons because they are literally cartoon creations - they're even animated via the use of cels (the art programme from back then even uses the term 'cel'). The Realm Online opened its doors officially in March 1996 or 97 (forget which).
But yeah, the use of 'Toon' as a name is not a negative name - it's a good sign of how well versed or experienced the speaker is with MMO history.
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I use "toon" when I'm chatting with people who commonly use toon themselves. But normally I use "character" because I also find "toon" a bit derogatory.
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No, no, see, this is where the haters of the usage of "toon" are making a mistake.|
Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
For me, "toon" isn't really the problem. It's a symptom of a problem:
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It is not akin to text speech and abbreviations. It is actually slang, if not simply an appropriate word within the language.
Toon means an animated character... most likely started with Roger Rabbit.
It is not simply a shortening of cartoon... it is an intended designation of any animated (or however it may come-to-life) character.
You can dislike it all that you want, but everyone that uses it does not use it as a cheap and incorrect abbreviation of the correct word... it is the correct word that means exactly what they are intending it to mean.
You simply do not accept its usage.
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
Yes, cartoons have become more than simply kid's stuff, but that has not changed the overall perception of them in American culture. Simply being "more than" is not enough to erase many decades of calcified perception. The adult-oriented cartoons that we're all aware of are still significantly outnumbered by the animated content produced for children. The exceptions do not get to become the rule just because they are well known exceptions.
And yes, video games and comics are indeed considered for children by the vast majority of people who don't play/read them. But I believe they are considered a children's pasttime even by many of the adults who do play/read them just the same. Just because they participate as adults doesn't mean they think of the activity as any less juvenile, or are any less prone to apply juvenile-sounding terminology. |
Who of us cares one iota what the general public thinks??
We think for ourselves and certainly don't perpetuate what we disagree with... so why would we go back to citing an incorrect viewpoint as the basis for correcting others that we disagree with?
Plenty of people disagree with this supposed general consensus that you are using to back your opinion... So, those of us who do not share the opinion that cartoons are for kiddies can go on and feel free of it. Full stop.
Silly discussion is silly!
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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I was perusing a bound volume of the first years of the "Prince Valiant" comic strip, dating from the latter 1930's. According to the narrative, Prince Valiant, upon returning from a journey, "made light-hearted love to every woman in Camelot."|
Originally Posted by KianaZero
Or what we call sweet talking or flirting is what 'making love' used to mean. Now it means the physical act itself.
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Either the meaning of the expression was once what you said or the Good Prince had Stamina six-slotted, *nudge-nudge wink-wink say-no-more.*
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Originally Posted by Indiramourning
I use "toon" when I'm chatting with people who commonly use toon themselves. But normally I use "character" because I also find "toon" a bit derogatory.
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Sorry, but no other creature in the omniverse can withstand the effects of multiple falls off skyscrapers, hitting the ground full force, and survive every time.
They GOTTA be toons.
Remember!
It's not the fall that kills you.
It's that level 1 Zombie at the bottom who slaps you for 1 HP just as you it the ground.
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Boo hoo hoo! You have trivialized someone's self-important pedantry!|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
No, no, see, this is where the haters of the usage of "toon" are making a mistake.
It is not akin to text speech and abbreviations. It is actually slang, if not simply an appropriate word within the language. Toon means an animated character... most likely started with Roger Rabbit. It is not simply a shortening of cartoon... it is an intended designation of any animated (or however it may come-to-life) character. You can dislike it all that you want, but everyone that uses it does not use it as a cheap and incorrect abbreviation of the correct word... it is the correct word that means exactly what they are intending it to mean. You simply do not accept its usage. What is funny (not really) about people in your position taking this slant on things is... You are the one using, and thus perpetuating, this limited and incorrect viewpoint now. Who of us cares one iota what the general public thinks?? We think for ourselves and certainly don't perpetuate what we disagree with... so why would we go back to citing an incorrect viewpoint as the basis for correcting others that we disagree with? Plenty of people disagree with this supposed general consensus that you are using to back your opinion... So, those of us who do not share the opinion that cartoons are for kiddies can go on and feel free of it. Full stop. Silly discussion is silly! |
For shame!
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In large part, the supporters of the term have been arguing here not that they have any particular love for "toon" itself, but rather that they use it out of convenience because it's easier, shorter and more expedient than the alternatives. They're using it for the same reason people use "Mr." instead of "Mister" or "LOL" instead of "I just made a joke, ha ha, aren't I funny?"
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
No, no, see, this is where the haters of the usage of "toon" are making a mistake.
It is not akin to text speech and abbreviations. It is actually slang, if not simply an appropriate word within the language. |
FUN FACT: That burst of light when you level up is actually the effectiveness escaping from your enhancements all at once.
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The thing is, we are all part of the general public in one way or another. We all came from it before coalescing into little tribes of nerds with specific hobbies. Adult MMO players bring years/decades of cultural baggage with them, including the general sense that cartoons are primarily for kids. The point isn't that the general public is right or wrong about this in its details, but that their general perspective nevertheless informs the slang that arises even from the minds/mouths/fingers of people who hesitate (or refuse) to acknowledge their own membership in (and intimate connection to) the greater social construct known as "the general public." You may not want to accept it, but every time we say "toon" when we refer to our characters (and I've been guilty of doing it just to fit in), we reinforce the juvenile aspects of the medium and dismantle its potential to resonate with our more mature selves. By using "toon", you only confirm (and perpetuate) the kiddie feel of MMOs in general, and CoX in particular, in the minds of the very general public that will spawn new players or new MMO designers.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Who of us cares one iota what the general public thinks??
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Hardly!
I think "toon" is a fitting tribute to the interesting work of "Who Framed Roger Rabbit" (more importantly, it is an interesting take on a realm that only just recently became a larger part of our regular days) which is worthy of the legacy contained within the usage of the word.
The idea that the word is "kiddy" is not one that I share.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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A few people have mentioned it is an aspect that leads them to use it...|
Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
In large part, the supporters of the term have been arguing here not that they have any particular love for "toon" itself, but rather that they use it out of convenience because it's easier, shorter and more expedient than the alternatives. They're using it for the same reason people use "Mr." instead of "Mister" or "LOL" instead of "I just made a joke, ha ha, aren't I funny?"
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However, an influence on choosing its usage is different than the nature of its origin.
It is not an abbreviation nor simply a shortened form of cartoon... Thus the difference.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Boo hoo hoo! You have trivialized someone's self-important pedantry!
For shame! |
I would like to apologize...
However, I have an irrational hatred of doing so!
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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I think it's giving them undue credit to call them "supporters." The reason that people like me and you don't use "toon" or other sillyspeak is because we think about words and their meaningfulness, maybe a little too much. Many of the people you're arguing with Just Don't Care, and that's not the same thing as Support. Not in the apathetic sense, but in a more practical sense that I don't think I'd have the heart to wage war on them for. If a spoon was closer than a fork for their eggs, they'd probably just grab the spoon. Special people like me and you go looking for the fork. Who's more of a nutcase? Like you, I've never used "toon", and I've been playing MMORPGs since November of 1997. The only difference between us is, I only hold myself to my standards, whereas you appear to lord yours over everyone else. The problem with doing that is, you'll begin to veer away from Blueside territory into Coleside territory, if you know what I mean. |
Originally Posted by Doctor Roswell
In large part, the supporters of the term have been arguing here not that they have any particular love for "toon" itself, but rather that they use it out of convenience because it's easier, shorter and more expedient than the alternatives. They're using it for the same reason you'd use "Mr." instead of "Mister."
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On a strictly tangential note, "Who Censored Roger Rabbit" is a pretty good read that really has very little to do with the Disney film other than the core concept of "toons". I recommend it.
On topic, the toon debate is, IMO, similar to the Trekkie vs Trekkor debate. People who say "toon" don't care about social implications to people who do care, and they will often say it just to needle the purists who object to the term.
In the end, use what term you like and don't waste sweat on what others choose to use.