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There are two other superhero mmos (and probably about to be another based on Marvel Universe in 2-3 years). |
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
I think the biggest fear of most here is that this game meets it's eventual end without a suitable replacement.
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For me that's not a fear.
If they need to do a FULL sequel I'd rather they do it after this one is shut down so that they can put their full attention into making it something that won't tank and have to be shutdown by their masters at NCSoft within the first year. The sequel would have to hit it out of the park. NCSoft has shown that it just doesn't give a **** about long-term. If the game isn't epic in six months in terms of subs it's NOT staying around.
I don't think there are enough resources to be able to make the type of sequel that takes care of the fear you mentioned while still keeping this CURRENT game stellar, at the same time. Nor do I think NCSoft would give them the funds to try.
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Ahahahhahahaha, not just no, but hell ******* no.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
Long past time. But someone in management decided long ago not to do that. Instead, they want to see how far they can take CoH 1 by extending and adding onto it. Unfortunately they've glommed so much detritus onto the old system that the base game isn't any fun anymore.
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Needless to say completely disagree with the bolded.
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Don't get me started there, because it is on it's way to certain DoA. And I wouldn't be so pessimistic about NCsoft's motivations toward maintaining this "niche" genre. And sequals are not unusual, just look at Lineage II.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I also think marvel wanted something also more along the lines of "play as spiderman number 12324324323" or ghost rider number 1234342432. Take a look at some of the recent news about their new upcoming mmo, and the kiddie one they just released.
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"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Seeing as how they killed a number of games six months in, before the games really got an audience, my trust of NCSoft and sequels or new games that don't auto start out with 1 mil subs, is at an all time low.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
Don't get me started there, because it is on it's way to certain DoA. And I wouldn't be so pessimistic about NCsoft's motivations toward maintaining this "niche" genre. And sequals are not unusual, just look at Lineage II.
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[QUOTE=Stormbird;4056305]Why would that be?
Imagine, if you would... oh, a "World War MMO." We get a run through WWI. After a run of several years, we get peace - the MMO goes free for those that want to keep messing with it, but the sequel comes out. Many years have passed, there have been changes in the world due to the way the first one ended... now we have the second WWMMO.
Honestly, I think it'd work for COH, too.
*Spoiler warning for anyone who hasn't gone through that much of the game *
I mean, there are several storylines that are just coasting as "finished" right now, and another that is being worked on that, once it's done - don't you think the world would have a breather?
After all, superpowered beings seem to wax and wane in the COH world. Nemesis has tried uploading himself to the Rikti mental network - and failed. The Rikti have to sort out things at home - something our supers would likely not be welcome to - and those that stay on Earth and want peace would need time to integrate. Arachnos... well, that whole storyline just sort of stops when you hand Recluse his head. Not that it really had a continuing, evolving direction.
Once the Coming Storm is finished... then what? It'd be fairly sensible to have a breather in there. The world's shaken up, the political structure and alliances get reworked (in order for 2.0 to have a "worldwide" focus) and things pick up again a few decades afterward ("Ten minutes into the future.")
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Originally Posted by Uberguy
What I should have said is that I have never, ever played a game I loved playing that had a sequel that I also loved playing.
[/qutoe] See... I have. Mechwarrior - starting with MWII, then MW3 - loved those. MW4 a little less, but I still have them. The Command and Conquer series, while under Westwood's actual care, was great. C&C 1, 2 and 3 are a lot of fun, as are RA 1 and 2. Then they handed things over to a different studio, got something completely and totally unrelated, different mechanics, etc. and called it C&C4 (which stinks on ice) and RA3 (which doesnt' stink as badly, but isn't RA.) But again - totally different studio doing that. Just for two (or three depending on how you count it) series off the top of my head. |
I really agree with a lot of this and it's why I've wondered at the very least idly what was coming after the Coming Storm, which to my limited knowledge was the single longest standing meta-story in the entire game. It started before the official start of the game with the Shivan invasion of the city and has now gone for 'round two' this year past.
Stormbird is right, I think. There are a lot of major stories hitting a climax; the writers, rightly or wrongly, are taking genuine chances with their story, such as killing off Statesman (however long that takes to fully manifest in the game). Nemesis is still there, Recluse as well. But I can't help but feel the threads are being pulled together and the Fates are weaving their final story.
As far as a CoH 2.0 would be concerned, I think it's a matter of commitment. At least two games I know of turned themselves into 2.0 of themselves with massive upgrades, being Anarchy Online and Age of Conan. Both went through massive graphics and game engine upgrades, and arguably became better for them. But that to me is an example of a company committed to their game and making the time and effort to make it better than it was before.
I have no idea if CoH after eight years and being technically ten or older in the final washup could have that done; I know there is an approach in design currently where possible to just remove wholesale old code in favor of new, and even the most optimistic appraisal of the game engine is that it's a patchwork quilt rather than a silk sheet. When there's failures, there's cascading failures. A simple tweak to bases lead to problems that lasted weeks instead of days. The dev team even admits they're afraid to work on it because the original person who worked on them is gone and it's badly, badly broken.
I personally think a rebirth both in terms of the technical side of the game and the story side of the game would be a better move than a whole new game that would effectively clean the slate. The same lore we often complain about being incomplete also makes the game alive and vibrant. There's history here, there's substance. We can all think of and refer to in-game history or events that are memorable. To start over again would, I think, require a fairly substantial world event that would justify it. Blizzard, being the juggernaut they are, could afford to do this and maintain the original player experience.
I think recent design of powersets (say the last two to three years with examples like Dual Pistols leading into Titan Weapons) is something I could see looping back upon itself with revamps across the board to all powersets. It's a genuinely massive undertaking, but progression is the key word here, because I personally don't want to feel once the Coming Storm has come and been resolved in whatever fashion that this is the end of my story, my experience in the game. I'd want to see it as a new beginning.
I wouldn't have a problem moving my Incarnates on, because those characters are becoming gods. There's no getting around the explicit message in that as far as in-game canon is concerned. Personal interpretation is just that. I can't imagine Incarnates wanting to hang around Earth anymore simply because there'd be a community of Statesmen and Recluses. What're they going to do, Safeguard and Mayhem missions?
A new game would provide just that, but I think it would then have to stand apart from CoH 1.0 and be unique enough not to be associated with the older game. And would the devs and us the players want that? Would we want to leave Paragon City and the Rogue Isles behind? A secret hope of mine has been to see Praetoria City reborn, as it's not only the kind of city I would want to play in regularly, but it's just so well designed and a testament to what I think the devs would like the game to look like.
There's so much to consider! Graphics, bodies, costumes, combat, environment...but speaking strictly as a player, I feel the game and the community is worth the investment. A CoH 2.0 would be welcome to me if the leadup to it justified a whole new game. But a reborn CoH 1.0 would feel more rewarding because I'd know the commitment was genuine.
S.
Part of Sister Flame's Clickey-Clack Posse
I like playing a mature MMO. I'd certainly try out CoX 2, but I would stick around in this game as long as I could. The history of MMO sequels is mixed (AC2 died, EQ2 seems to survive, but EQ didn't go away), but once a sufficient community develops, the original game usually lives on.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
What we're playing now I'd consider CoH 1.5. CoH has come a long way since the beginning, but like the OP says, "How much further can the current engine be pushed?" Actually it would be, "Which way would be more cost-effective, rewrite more of the old engine, or develop a new engine?"
A most (all?) of the different MMO sequels have failed over the years mainly because they tried to change the game too much over the original, and what's left is usually a game that's too dumbed-down, and/or has far less content than the original had.
With all of the rough edges with CoH currently, there's still a lot of things that are done right. Thinking of a new City of Heroes games as "City of Heroes, Version 2.0" is better than "City of Heroes II". We don't need to game reinvented. We just need a major overhaul of what exists, overhauls that may drastically change certain aspects of the game (completely redoing the Invention/Salvage system, or Bases/Housing, or even PvP).
I think the game itself is still just fine. I also think that a lot of people would be satisfied if the graphics were updated to today's standards. Like someone above-thread mentioned, EVE Online did that with their dual clients for a while, until they moved over completely to the newer, better graphics. I know that's not a trivial request, but I think it could sustain the game for a long time.
--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
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He lives! |
Originally Posted by NuclearToast
I think the game itself is still just fine. I also think that a lot of people would be satisfied if the graphics were updated to today's standards. Like someone above-thread mentioned, EVE Online did that with their dual clients for a while, until they moved over completely to the newer, better graphics. I know that's not a trivial request, but I think it could sustain the game for a long time.
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Honestly, as attached I am to some of the oldest pieces, I wouldn't mind a total overhaul like this. The trouble, as I see it, is that you can't just "update" old stuff to look better, especially in a new engine. You have to make new stuff that looks like the old stuff in the new engine, which means remaking... Everything. Maybe not quite from scratch if you use the existing items as templates, but I can't imagine that would be much better.
The thing, though, is that in trying to replicate old stuff, you sometimes end up locked into an inferior design because of how it was originally made, and end up sacrificing potential quality because of it. I imagine that if the cityscape were ever remade in a new engine (i.e. made in a new engine), that the development team might want to make a larger number of building templates or move the zones around so they're not so chaotic, or maybe get rid of the ridiculous beach walls all over the place like Paragon City is built in the Grand Canyon. It might also take a much larger and more successful game to justify the expense.
Mind you, I REALLY want to see this, but I kind of don't want to lose anything in the switchover, especially the stuff I'm already using.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Warning: Armchair development ahead. Please take this with a grain of SCR.
Arcanaville has already remarked on the obstacles sitting before a direct sequel.
What would be the viability of making a non-direct sequel? That is, something /not/ aimed at the same audience, but built in broadly similar principles. A single player CRPG, for instance, or some other smaller scale offering which could be used as a platform for developing tech that could be re-applied in City such as a new engine and/or more modular/streamlined art and power systems?
Not a trivial process by any means (serious difficulties arise in coordination between such projects, and requiring the unquel to encompass both City and it's own design goals sounds a bit shaky even as I suggest it), but it might be an idea worth chewing on?
*Edit: There are other practical issues involved in executing massive overhauls not addressed here, porting art assets among them, which will not necessarily be made easier by this suggestion. I don't have it in me to try to catalog all of them at this time, but I'd suggest taking a long view of the logistics that go into building, let alone rebuilding, any game while keeping the whole project solvent.
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1. Sequels to MMOs are the exception, not the rule.|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
What I seem to be hearing from a lot of the previous posts is that we should not hold our breaths for a sequel and if there is a new CoH game, it won't meet the expectations we have from playing this game. My problem with this analysis is that;
a) Sequels are fundamental to most games even MMOs b) Patches and tweaks can only take the current game so far and at some point it will have to shut down c) Even this game at launch would never have met the expectations of the current player base, making the idea that your need a polished, content-filled game at launch a self-defeating notion. |
2. They optimized the server code for more users. They rewrote the game client for Ultra Mode. They've added by my mental count over twenty new game mechanics or technical features since 2007. Critter AI is different. Newer zones are designed differently. Mission technology is different. I cannot think of a game feature that couldn't be added to this game because of technical limitations.
3. Related to the above, many things are impractical without huge amounts of work specifically to preserve the existing work in existing resources. Changing the animation rig in this game, for example, is not difficult: they've added animation rigs in the past. The problem is it orphans existing resources which either have to be redone or abandoned. A new game doesn't have that problem simply because it abandons everything from the start. We could do that. Just throw out all the weapons, costumes, textures, etc, and start from scratch. I'm sure the players will wait.
If you make a game targeted at the same players with a similar overall design, you will *definitely* split the existing playerbase between them, but only possibly attract enough players to fill the gap. You'll double your dev costs, incur huge startup development costs, and eventually be sold by Atari, even if both games are individually healthy. I mean NCSoft.
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I could see the IP itself being used in a different game. There's all sorts of crazy things you could do. You could make a RTS game involving the Rikti War, for example. But RTS games require very precise balancing in a way the current dev team doesn't in CoH, meaning there isn't a lot of existing tools and skills to leverage there. A Leisure Suit Larry with Lightsabers MMO like TOR is would be a massive content writing undertaking, and I doubt something that big would be in play at Paragon. A mobile conversion would be a possibility; they might want to stretch their MTX legs a bit.|
Originally Posted by Radio_Silence
What would be the viability of making a non-direct sequel? That is, something /not/ aimed at the same audience, but built in broadly similar principles. A single player CRPG, for instance, or some other smaller scale offering which could be used as a platform for developing tech that could be re-applied in City such as a new engine and/or more modular/streamlined art and power systems?
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I think that is all unlikely, but possible.
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I would think by now you'd stop being sure about anything. Your certainty about CO was a source of significant entertainment to the CoH players in the beta.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I'm sure your apparent contributions from such an early stage must have helped it become the game it is today. With such stellar enthusiasm and attitude, it's no wonder they aimed so high. You're just so darn motivational and encouraging.
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I can throw things! It will be awesome! And Jack understands Tankers!
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Going by the last thread where he explained his "theory", it's probably better if he doesn't |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Do tell.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Well, it did tank, and Jack must understand that |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
And Jack understands Tankers!
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I was also thinking that one could do something with a different IP using similar core gameplay, though that does run into re-inventing the wheel a bit. I do think this wheel has a lot of room left to roll around in.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I could see the IP itself being used in a different game. There's all sorts of crazy things you could do. You could make a RTS game involving the Rikti War, for example. But RTS games require very precise balancing in a way the current dev team doesn't in CoH, meaning there isn't a lot of existing tools and skills to leverage there. A Leisure Suit Larry with Lightsabers MMO like TOR is would be a massive content writing undertaking, and I doubt something that big would be in play at Paragon. A mobile conversion would be a possibility; they might want to stretch their MTX legs a bit.
I think that is all unlikely, but possible. |
The objective would be to use such a project to acquire the funding and resources necessary to develop better /tools/, both for the production of the proposed unquel and for facilitating development of City itself. Things that existing resources could be ported into with (relative) ease once those tools existed, which does make staying within the City IP attractive.
As you've mentioned, there's no technical limitation to what can be added to the game as it sits, but there do seem to be some technical constraints which make certain tasks more circuitously difficult than they need to be with long term solutions laying out of logistically reasonable reach.
Of course, if Paragon decides and is able to solve such issues /without/ resorting to Project X Tangent tactics, I certainly am not going to complain.
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I wouldn't go that far: the game's still alive and as far as I'm aware still profitable as an individual game. The problem is that I don't know what made J_B think he understood Jack's philosophy on how to implement tankers or anything else, when its always been clear Jack doesn't have a philosophy on how to implement anything. Jack's a concept man, and he thinks in very broad terms. He was sufficiently divorced from the implementation of this game that the documentation he wrote for Defiance didn't match how it actually worked at all. I was told it never worked that way (and I now know it essentially couldn't have at the time) and the description in Jack's documentation almost certainly came from an early brainstorming session.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Well, it did tank, and Jack must understand that
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It was obvious during CO beta that the design of the system was being iterated and shuffled so fast that no one's original vision could have possibly survived the process, and honestly by the time CO code hit cpus Jack was almost certainly already looking to STO. He admitted as much after STO launched.
If there's a lesson there regarding CoH2, its that anyone thinking they have *any* idea what this dev team would create if given the chance to make a CoH2, much less some alternate team assembled from new hires we don't even know, is almost certainly incorrect. Even if there were not compelling reasons to make something completely different, it would be completely different anyway just because no dev team has the same design vision.
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I guess you can't run either Cryptic Studios or Paragon Studios like you can run Microsoft.
Let alone the amount of work and cost involved, is it even technically possible to swap out COH's existing engine from the game?
Note: this isn't my area of expertise so I have no idea if that's something that could be done at all.
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That is what I find myself thinking whenever considering what Paragon Studios may do.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Something else to remember is that Paragon Studios really likes innovating, so any kind of sequel or "exspansuel" would very likely be something that'd surprise us in the way it was done.
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It is also what I'm rooting for... whatever it may be that they are up to and/or will be doing in the future, I hope that they're being the most innovative crazy-headed pioneers that I believe they can be.
That's what I respect and that's what I find fun.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Well, to an extent, you could say that City's existing engine is the game. "Swapping it out" would be like replacing a wood frame house's structure with a steel frame while the house is still standing.
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Originally Posted by BlueBattler
Let alone the amount of work and cost involved, is it even technically possible to swap out COH's existing engine from the game?
Note: this isn't my area of expertise so I have no idea if that's something that could be done at all. |
@Mindshadow
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I'm not sure they'd need to totally swap it out - it'd all depend on what exactly they wanted to do with any new engine, and if it could be done as an add-on/recoding of the current one.|
Originally Posted by BlueBattler
Let alone the amount of work and cost involved, is it even technically possible to swap out COH's existing engine from the game?
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For example, one of the most requested features that the curent engine cant's handle is to be able to pick up objects and throw them - but would that need a totally new engine, or could it be done with a major upgrade to the one we have now?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Depends on what specifically you want to do. If you just want to *look* like you're picking up and throwing objects, you could just use VFX to simulate that. Hurl does that already, you'd just synchronize that with interactive objects. But if you want you integrate our physics engine with that, things get more complicated fast.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
I'm not sure they'd need to totally swap it out - it'd all depend on what exactly they wanted to do with any new engine, and if it could be done as an add-on/recoding of the current one.
For example, one of the most requested features that the curent engine cant's handle is to be able to pick up objects and throw them - but would that need a totally new engine, or could it be done with a major upgrade to the one we have now? |
The more important question is: to what end? What does it mean to pick up an object? What does it mean to throw it? What effects should that have? How do we balance that against pre-existing effects?
In CO you have a strength attribute that determines how large an object you can pick up. We don't have that here. Do we add it, or fake it with something else, or what?
In a sense, picking up an object and throwing it either going to be a power which everyone either has or doesn't have, or its going to be a skill that people can make better or worse. And if you decide to start adding things that aren't powers into the game of this nature, you'll have to add a skills system or an attribute system to drive it.
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I'd probably go with another inherent power in the Fitness pool, so you could slot it with new strength enhancements for lifiting bigger things, as well as for damage and accuracy - which would also let people respec it into their existing avatars without needing to remake them, and fit in well theme-wise with the existing 4 Fitness powers - but there could be a problem with Super Strength, as that would kinda have to have the ability to lift and throw as a default setting, unless they remade and renamed that power set to remove the more obvious strength parts of it - keeping the powers similar - renaming the set something like "Brawling" or "Power Brawling" would free up the "strength" power title for the new Fitness slot.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In CO you have a strength attribute that determines how large an object you can pick up. We don't have that here. Do we add it, or fake it with something else, or what?
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA