Something else to remember is that Paragon Studios really likes innovating, so any kind or sequel or "exspansuel" would very likely be something that'd surprise us in the way it was done.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Cities of Heroes! And they can have Paragon City and a new city, while the cities themselves would be seperate, the city itself wouldnt be sectioned off like it is now.
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Originally Posted by Combat
What I would like to see from a CoH2:
1. Not to be named CoH 2. Obviously, we can't call ourselves World of Heroes, but we could go to Country or Continent and keep the abbreviation, or alternatively expand on the multi-dimensional side of our game universe and call it Multi-verse of Heroes or Omniverse of Heroes. 2. To retain all the systems we know and love. This is the hard one. I couldn't upgrade to a CoH 2 with less to do, even knowing it had better graphics/mechanics. I'd want SSK, Flashbacks, Bases, and MA at least. Adding these to a new engine instead of an old would allow them to be more functional and hopefully would make the game much more enjoyable. 3. To increase the potentials of the game engine. The developers have done a lot with engine, but nevertheless they have been trapped by it. A new engine would hopefully allow much more options, even if the basic gameplay isn't largely changed. Said engine should allow things like negative Knockback (pulling instead of pushing) and get rids of quirks like an inability to slot for damage resistance debuff. 4. A greatly increased focus on lore and storytelling. The original CoH was largely a blank canvas, with very little in-game story (the background was fine, but was largely not exploited). In essence, it was a large number of newspaper missions with more annoying objectives. We've gotten better through the years, but I'd like to see focus on story-telling throughout the game, perhaps with a system similar to SWTOR. I'd also like to see the game embrace its roots more, with more comic-book like cutscenes. Another cool option would be phases of the game featuring different comic-book eras, which could done by traveling in time or across dimensions. There is a ton of stuff that could be exploited. I would love to use ouroboros to see the Nemesis take-over, for instance. Additionally, I'd like to see more exotic locations and threats, like fighting Shiva in space or Rularuu in the Shadow Shard. 5. The closing of CoH1 I wouldn't like to see a huge division between the new game and the old one, as our playerbase is narrow enough as it is. Instead, I'd like all current CoH subscribers to get a free download of the new game, which would probably use the same freemium model as this one. I'd also like to see this game's servers shut down so that all of our population would be in the same game. This means that CoH 2 cannot change so much that it alienates players from this game. For example, it cannot become a WoW-clone with superheroes, and it can't rely on the old MMO holy trinity. 6. A move away from Paragon I'd like to see us find another city. Alternatively, Paragon could get a huge revamp. I'd like to see a much more "city-like" city, instead a bunch of boring buildings and more locations around said city. Oh, and no walls. I'll address that later. I mentioned earlier that I'd like more exotic locations, but I also want the "normal" zone to be upgraded. Preatoria was a set in the right direction (new Atlas was not). Such a city would have: more than three types of buildings, a difference between zones greater than sky color, differing types of architecture (little China-town, residential areas, "old-town", etc.), and each building would have a history. Instead of a building being randomly picked for an instance, I'd like for the locations to be set, for example the mission "Go to the Crey, Inc. offices and stop the Countess!" would send you to the Crey office building, which would probably be obvious in-game with Crey logos, statues, etc. 7. Remove the War-Walls! They have some fiction behind them, but they are basically an example of in-game limitations. Instead, I'd like to be able to travel from one zone to another without going through a gate or being stopped by a wall. To do that, I'd like to have more travel powers. Instead of just having flight, I'd like to have an option for "Very-Very fast flight", which would allow me to travel between zones. In ordinary zones, you would use regular travel powers (which would be more customizable than the travel powers of today), but when you get to the land between zones you would pick up your speed at scream across the zone to get too the next area. This would make you feel like more of a superhero, but the fast-movement segment would basically be in place of a loading bar (ie, it would be a loading-bar game). 8. Improved graphics Specifically, on our characters. I'd like to see realistic faces and skin textures, and more options to make our characters distinct (as opposed to just our costumes). I'd also like to retain the costume options from this game, but updated for 20xx. With a totally new engine, I'd like to see options for moving fingers, swaying hair, and vastly improved power customization (location customization, emanation from an object, etc.). I'd also like to see improvements made so that even the vanilla of the game looks realistic. I like the general graphics style of the game, but it could be less plasticy for characters and cardboardlike for zones. I'd also like to see more animations rigs, so that we can fight enemies that are currently impossible. On the same subject, I'd like to see the ability to fight much larger enemies, starting on the scale of Rularuu and the Super-Meks and going up from there. I see Shiva as being the size of a small moon, for instance. 9. Keep the AT-powerset mechanic I'd like to see a return of our ATs, but probably with a little combining of classes. I'd probably end with Blasters/Dominators, Controllers, Defenders/Corrupters, Scrappers/Stalkers, MMs, and Tanks/Brutes, with the classes with a / between them combined. This means blasters and dominators would be combined into one class that focuses on blasting with a minor in crowd control (improve blaster secondaries or swap dominators around), defenders and corrupters would be combined as a higher damage defender with scourge, scrappers would have options to either scrap or stalk, and tanks would get the Fury mechanic. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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If you think its hard to get one thing changed in an existing game, try getting everything you want simultaneously in a game that's coming up from scratch. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
[peers coldly over the top of his glasses]
Really. Because trying to change the existing game's status quo works so well. |
It was somewhat amusing, and somewhat sad, to see people actually think that was possible during the CO beta period. The discussions about what was possible with a blank slate was truly something I wish I could have preserved and studied over time. I can tell you the disappointment from pre-pre-pre-beta through beta was large enough to have its own gravitational field.
As I recall you had high hopes for CO given what you thought you knew about Jack's views on various things. How'd that work out for you?
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Quote to emphasize.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
If you think its hard to get one thing changed in an existing game, try getting everything you want simultaneously in a game that's coming up from scratch.
It was somewhat amusing, and somewhat sad, to see people actually think that was possible during the CO beta period. The discussions about what was possible with a blank slate was truly something I wish I could have preserved and studied over time. I can tell you the disappointment from pre-pre-pre-beta through beta was large enough to have its own gravitational field. As I recall you had high hopes for CO given what you thought you knew about Jack's views on various things. How'd that work out for you? |
Ladies, gentlemen, and Johnny, you don't see this kind of wisdom every day.
Where to now?
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Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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I'm sure your apparent contributions from such an early stage must have helped it become the game it is today. With such stellar enthusiasm and attitude, it's no wonder they aimed so high. You're just so darn motivational and encouraging.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It was somewhat amusing, and somewhat sad, to see people actually think that was possible during the CO beta period. The discussions about what was possible with a blank slate was truly something I wish I could have preserved and studied over time. I can tell you the disappointment from pre-pre-pre-beta through beta was large enough to have its own gravitational field.
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Really? Was pompousness wiped out when I wasn't looking?|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
you don't see this kind of wisdom every day.
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You know, I really try not to do this too often, but the situation really calls for it.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Really? Was pompousness wiped out when I wasn't looking?
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umad, bro?
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
A sequel to CoH, even if it did magically meet my "except for" list, would probably not be one I'd leave this game to play, at least not until a few years after its release. Sure, the new game would have those "except for" features, but it would severely lack "polish", as all new MMOs do. If Paragon decides they want to do the amount of work it would take to create a new game, I'd rather it be used to improve the already-working game we have than create a new game which would inevitably have its own set of problems.
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It can, unless maybe you're campaigning for an unpopular cause or something. But we've had lots of those threads, let's try to keep this one on topic.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
[peers coldly over the top of his glasses]
Really. Because trying to change the existing game's status quo works so well. |
Put it this way.
If they could leave the game's basic powers/enemies/etc mechanics (all the under-the-hood stuff) in place (as a starting point) and re-wrap the game in a newer, sexier graphics engine, I might go for that.
Doing a COMPLETE revamp of the game as a whole right off the bat is impractical
And deep-sixing the game to go with a "CoH2, Electric Boogaloo" (Now with less content!) is a BIIIIIIIIIIIIIII*GASP*WHEEZE*PUFF*PUFF*PUFF*IIIIII IIIIIG no-no.
Would simply re-wrapping the game in a new graphics client be "tough"? Sure! Tougher than rewriting from scratch? Probably. There's several metric giga-buttloads of "nooks" and "crannies" in the game that will probably blow up because they weren't anticipated in the current game. And the community will stumble across at least twice that many within hours of it going live.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Don't use this as an example... this, too, has fell woefully short.|
Originally Posted by Combat
We've gotten better through the years, but I'd like to see focus on story-telling throughout the game, perhaps with a system similar to SWTOR.
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When you find a runaway, after their parents have told you to find them since they're involved in drugs and other terrible acts, they admit to you they can't confront their past so tell their parents they're dead... if you let them leave planet and tell their parents they died, you're a hero, if you make them face justice and their responsibilities, taking them home, you're a villain???
If you run into town with a stolen shipment of medicine, following the suspects out of the town, and their reason was to help their young... but it was stolen by raiders. You go out and retrive the medicine from the raiders. You can't sell it, but if you return it to the group that stole it initially, you're a hero. If you return it to those that it was stolen from, you're a villian.
Yeah, I want to see those kinds of moral choices in my game being definitive of my playstyle of a superhero game...
Better yet, I can go back to Text Adventure games where I have to figure out what the author means is the correct answer or suffer...
All I'm saying here, is don't sell the new as better... it's not.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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Exactly this, in the final analysis. This is, by far, not perfect, but it's not a wounded gazelle on the Serengeti some folks would like to think. It's alive and well and enjoyed by a fair market share in the MMO industry... especially within its niche.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
A sequel to CoH, even if it did magically meet my "except for" list, would probably not be one I'd leave this game to play, at least not until a few years after its release. Sure, the new game would have those "except for" features, but it would severely lack "polish", as all new MMOs do. If Paragon decides they want to do the amount of work it would take to create a new game, I'd rather it be used to improve the already-working game we have than create a new game which would inevitably have its own set of problems.
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It's better than a lot of the current competition, and suggesting they scrap what they have and start over is just silly in this age of instant gratification/condemnation upon anything 'new'. Much less, a sequel.
Barter for a new engine if you like, or a system you don't currently care for. I would wager such things will fall upons more interested ears than wanting a sequel to this game.
I fully admit, I could be wrong, but I wouldn't speak as confidently as I do if I didn't feel otherwise.
"I play characters. I have to have a very strong visual appearance, backstory, name, etc. to get involved with a character, otherwise I simply won't play it very long. I'm not an RPer by any stretch of the imagination, but character concept is very important for me."- Back Alley Brawler
I couldn't agree more.
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NC *IS* a big studio. Huge, in fact. Their success is more in the Asian market, granted, but it's still the same company. Lineage for a long time boasted player numbers that have only been beaten by WoW.
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Originally Posted by Night-Hawk07
Addressing the bolded sections, 1) I believe a year or so ago NCSoft/Paragon Studios trademarked the name City of Heroes 2 or something along those lines (EDIT: here it is), and 2) that's assuming CoH1 is left running. They may well shut the CoH1 servers down as they're bringing CoH2 online. I wouldn't be surprised at all if that happened, as I imagine it would cost quite a bit to keep both games running. Bigger studios might be able to pull it off, but I'm not sure NC/PS would be able to. I'm not sure what their situation is.
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Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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By some. By others, it was actually dreaded for that reason. Well, specifically because of one of those makers.
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Originally Posted by Chris_Zuercher
They only got that reputation after they divested themselves of the CoH franchise. That Certain Other game was actually eagerly anticipated because it was from the makers of CoH.
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Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
What I seem to be hearing from a lot of the previous posts is that we should not hold our breaths for a sequel and if there is a new CoH game, it won't meet the expectations we have from playing this game. My problem with this analysis is that;
a) Sequels are fundamental to most games even MMOs
b) Patches and tweaks can only take the current game so far and at some point it will have to shut down
c) Even this game at launch would never have met the expectations of the current player base, making the idea that your need a polished, content-filled game at launch a self-defeating notion.
Rome didn't fall in a day and it didn't do it on it's own, it was picked at by outside forces until there was nothing left to call an empire. CoH is the Rome of Super Hero MMOs and as much as we continue to build content and facelifts on a decaying foundation, we will slowly loose playerbase to outside competition until there is nothing left. The writing is on the wall, it may not be today or even the next couple of years, but there is an expiration date and I am sure that if CoH has to fall, Paragon Studios would wan't it to cir *** to a successor of their own making.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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The money people, Microsoft and Marvel did the deal because of our rep. Anyone else's opinion really didn't matter.
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Originally Posted by Tyger42
By some. By others, it was actually dreaded for that reason. Well, specifically because of one of those makers.
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"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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If City of Heroes launched now like it was back in 2004, it would have tanked and tanked hard, and not just because it would have to compete with the City of Heroes of today. One of the reasons City of Heroes has gained enough momentum to stay afloat so long was because it was something wholly new and unique. It was a super hero MMO in a day where those didn't exist, with unorthodox combat, no traditional loot and a host of other quirks and quality of life features that set it apart. This is no longer unique on the MMO scene, and many other games have replicated many of the features that made this game successful.|
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
Even this game at launch would never have met the expectations of the current player base, making the idea that your need a polished, content-filled game at launch a self-defeating notion.
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If City of Heroes 2 ever comes out, it has to offer something more than City of Heroes: Again, or else face a VERY hard time. Even for as many things as I complain about, JUST fixing them isn't enough to bring me over to a new game if the rest of it isn't up to par with City of Heroes as it is now. It doesn't really matter if the City of Heroes of 2004 would not have met our current expectations, because City of Heroes 2 would have to compete with THIS City of Heroes, and most of us that have been here for 7 years are so used to it it'll take something BIG to shift us.
Even many of the people who would give City of Heroes 2 a chance seem to suggest they'd want to wait until the game developed and matured some, rather than diving into it at Launch. The thing is, SOMEONE needs to play it at Launch to keep the thing afloat long enough to develop into a better game, and if it's not the people who kept City of Heroes 1 in business through thick and thin... Who would?
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
The money people, Microsoft and Marvel did the deal because of our rep. Anyone else's opinion really didn't matter.
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And besides, both Marvel and Microsoft pulled out and left Cryptic hanging, having to release the game on their own. Their reputation clearly wasn't convincing enough.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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QR
There's a fundamental difficulty with in producing a good sequel. Generally, sequels tend to appeal most to those who are fans of the first instalment - which is invariably fewer than those who took it up initially - be it a book, a movie, a game etc.
Those who want the sequel, also want something recognisably based on the original, but with new shiny stuff added that adds to their enjoyment.
People tend to be conservative and stick with what they know and like rather than try something new, so anybody producing a sequel must provide the initial feel of the original - to take the sequel in a very different direction is to invite disaster - and it will often take a second sequel - or third instalment if you'd prefer - to undo the damage the sequel did to the original and perhaps we see a classic example of that in the Trek movies, where the odd numbered stories are considered by many superior to the even numbers, unlike say Star Wars - but that differs because the whole story was considered in the round initially.
If we take CoH as an example, other superhero games have tried to cash in on perceived weaknesses of CoH, and yet struggled to stay afloat which should tell us a lot about how difficult it is to get people into the new product. But conversely, NCSoft aren't very afraid of sequels, having one about to launch and one that sits quite neatly alongside it's predecessor so it's not impossible.
However to make it work they would have to make it something like "Nation of Heroes" set in a new location, and with new stories - but with a new engine but a "feel" of the original if not the looks. It would need to be bigger, better, and shinier and the stories would need to be a lot more engaging than the content we have now - and that's a big risk because it means a huge investment in development time to come even a little close to eight years of continuous development.
I think (I've not read the entire thread in depth) that some have already said arguably we're already around CoH2 with the end game so it could well be we'll find CoH3 coming to a console near you at some stage in the future which CoH continuing to complement it.
Thelonious Monk
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I don't really think that's entirely true, speaking of sequels in general. Most of the sequels I've seen fail have been the ones that just attempted to retread the same ground as their predecessors and just repeat the same story, game or experience otherwise. To be, for a sequel to exist, it has to bring something new to the table that the prequel didn't have, otherwise it's just an expansion pack.|
Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
People tend to be conservative and stick with what they know and like rather than try something new, so anybody producing a sequel must provide the initial feel of the original - to take the sequel in a very different direction is to invite disaster - and it will often take a second sequel - or third instalment if you'd prefer - to undo the damage the sequel did to the original and perhaps we see a classic example of that in the Trek movies, where the odd numbered stories are considered by many superior to the even numbers, unlike say Star Wars - but that differs because the whole story was considered in the round initially.
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For instance, take James Cameron's Avatar. Whether you like it or not, it was a movie successful enough to warrant a sequel, but that sequel is not going to be just the same thing all over again. Instead, we'll be visiting this Earth they spoke about so much and seeing the high-tech future that's killing humanity, supposedly. If one was a modern person going back to nature, then the other will be nature going back to technology. I personally like Avatar very much, but when I heard there would be a sequel, I was dreading it, just because there seemed to be nothing else to tell about the story. It wasn't until I realised it was not going to be a retelling of the original story that I became interested.
"City of Heroes 2" that is an exact copy of City of Heroes only it looks better just isn't going to fly. Not as a separate sequel with separate servers and a separate subscription. At least I don't think so.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Step 1: Hire 100 developers/programmers to recreate the game w/ a upgraded engine and a system that will transfer CoX1.0 characters over to 2.0.
Step 2: Fix the Lore
Step 3: ???
Step 4: PROFIT!!!
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What wasn't convincing was their product. Both wanted something that looked more like the CoH that we have now, but Cryptic wanted to create their dream-game from 2004.
| And besides, both Marvel and Microsoft pulled out and left Cryptic hanging, having to release the game on their own. Their reputation clearly wasn't convincing enough. |
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Long past time. But someone in management decided long ago not to do that. Instead, they want to see how far they can take CoH 1 by extending and adding onto it. Unfortunately they've glommed so much detritus onto the old system that the base game isn't any fun anymore.|
Originally Posted by Stormbird
I think it's really, *really* getting to be time for a COH 2.
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There won't be a CoH 2. Ever. NCSoft's business plan is to drive this one into the ground, while developing new MMOs to attract and retain players (such as WildStar).
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Life is funny. Death is funnier. Mass slaughter can be hilarious.
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I think the biggest fear of most here is that this game meets it's eventual end without a suitable replacement.
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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
Long past time. But someone in management decided long ago not to do that. Instead, they want to see how far they can take CoH 1 by extending and adding onto it. Unfortunately they've glommed so much detritus onto the old system that the base game isn't any fun anymore.
There won't be a CoH 2. Ever. NCSoft's business plan is to drive this one into the ground, while developing new MMOs to attract and retain players (such as WildStar). |
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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I lol'd because I think A LOT of people have the expectation of step 1. I just . . . don't see that happening. In fact I see a lot of primaires and secondaries (and hell maybe even ATs) that we have come to love NOT BEING THERE at launch.|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
Step 1: Hire 100 developers/programmers to recreate the game w/ a upgraded engine and a system that will transfer CoX1.0 characters over to 2.0.
Step 2: Fix the Lore Step 3: ??? Step 4: PROFIT!!! |
That ALONE would be a deal breaker for many who love this game.
I can see it now . . . "what do you mean I can't recreate the main toon I've been playing with in COH 1.0 for seven years?"
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
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I also think marvel wanted something also more along the lines of "play as spiderman number 12324324323" or ghost rider number 1234342432. Take a look at some of the recent news about their new upcoming mmo, and the kiddie one they just released.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
What wasn't convincing was their product. Both wanted something that looked more like the CoH that we have now, but Cryptic wanted to create their dream-game from 2004.
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Really. Because trying to change the existing game's status quo works so well.
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