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Yes, because that's exactly what I said.|
Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age
lol...ok so you're right... ITS ALL HOPELESS. There can NEVER be another successful Superhero MMO after this.....its all over
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Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age
I am sure you will go places with that line of thinking. Some game is one day going to come along and make you feel like an idiot.
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OK, per chance you're not going to simply ignore every argument I make, let me try to be constructive. I never said that a future super hero MMO can't succeed. What I'm saying is that both Champions and DC Online prove that that's not a given. Neither a big budget nor a recognisable fictional universe nor "City of Heroes done right," if Jack Emmert is anything to go by, is a guarantee of success. If anything, they're cautionary tales of how easy it is to falter with what looks on paper like a sure thing.
Moreover, while A super hero MMO of the future may be successful, it won't be City of Heroes 2, sold to the people who played City of Heroes 1. Whenever such a game is proposed, everyone goes tripping over each other to talk about all the things that need to be fixed and improved, but forgetting about all the things that need to be preserved. That's essentially what Champions Online was being marketed as - City of Heroes, only with long skirts, jet packs, fingers, a "points buy" system and loot. I warned people then as I do now - just because these things were improved doesn't mean it's a good game if the rest of the stuff they DON'T market isn't actually there. Which it wasn't.
The bottom line is that City of Heroes 2 is going to be a completely different game. There would really be no reason to make one otherwise, nor would there be enough money to offset replicating seven years of content without seven years to do it in. There's also very little hope that many of the ways that City of Heroes is broken in that we enjoy will make it into a sequel, considering how hard the development team has tried to just keep a lid on them over the years. It's not going to be "the same game but better." It won't be the same game at all, and THAT is the reason it won't be made.
If Paragon Studios ever decide to make a new super hero game, I'm more than convinced it'll be something else entirely.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Originally Posted by Mistress Rue
Is it just me, or does this strike anyone else as Splinter Cell, with super powers?
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I really don't understand a lot of the complaints/reasons why COH needs a "total revamp," or "sequel," or whatever. I see people saying things about customization... Have you ever played 99% of the other, newer MMO's? I'll give you a hint. They give you an outfit to wear. After a while, they give you a new outfit to wear. Custom costumes? Nope. Power customization? Nope. I've seen quite a few that don't even allow for character descriptions to be written by the players.
Sure, I guess some games look "newer," but I think the Atlas Park revamp and Praetoria/First Ward are on par with many newer games aesthetically, and a lot of our costume pieces are really detailed and fancy looking.
And then there's that other thing. Did no one else notice that a corporate giant released a game to compete with this one and it flopped while our game continues to succeed? That might tell you something about the quality of this game and what's more important to players.
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APB probably has the best character creator out there now in a comparable game. We may have more options by virtue of being around for eight years, but we're simply not the best anymore.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Sure, I guess some games look "newer," but I think the Atlas Park revamp and Praetoria/First Ward are on par with many newer games aesthetically, and a lot of our costume pieces are really detailed and fancy looking.
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City of used to be the best. It deserves to be again. Our characters should look that good and have that level of customization.
But they don't, and they can't. Because that means redoing every costume part, redoing the character rig and by extension redoing every animation in the game. And even if you did do that, the characters would look out of place in the game world and when compared with the enemies, which for the most part still looks like 2007, even with Ultra-mode. So they need to be redone as well.
That's simply too much work to expect to be done, and you may as well be starting over. You can't upgrade graphics piecemeal. It looks like ***. The contrast between the existing old and new costume parts is already bad enough.
So, unless you just plan to slap a new coat of paint on the same jalopy, which is what they've been doing, you've gotta scrap it and start over. The small iterations and improvements haven't been insignificant, but lets be honest, even with the best of the new stuff, the game is from 2004 with some 2007 tech nailed on and it looks the part.
If you're going to do that much work for all new assets and animations, which frankly I think we need, and get us up to snuff with the likes of the APB creator, you may as well be doing a brand new game, hence the sequel talk.
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Have to disagree with you on the Hollows, Sam. I found it easy enough to travel through, one just had to actually look where they were going and not run straight to the mission, which was oftenthe problem for people.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
There's no logic in claiming there's no logic without offering any actual argument to refute the logic people have already explained behind why this isn't a good idea. "Is not! Is too!" is not a useful discussion.
I call that an improvement. The game lost its time sinks, the broken characters were improved to not suck (almost all of them) and we learned to play. The game is far, FAR less irritating these days than it has ever been. It doesn't waste my time, it doesn't get on my nerves and it very rarely forces me to do something I don't want to do. I can't see this as anything but a good thing. "Teams" aren't the only social aspect of this game. Global chat, friends lists and the forums very much do count, and many of us prefer that kind of social interaction. Most of the friends I've made in this game, I've made over disconnected chat or over fan site forums and almost never through teaming with them in the game. In fact, whenever I do team with people, I more often resent them than enjoy them, especially when they're random people I've never met before. The Hollows before War Witch redid the spawns was pure garbage and easily one of the WORST places for lowbies to start out in. Mission placement was irresponsible, spawn sizes were hazard zone size in an area that wasn't technically a hazard zone and enemy powers were over the top. The Hollows, to the best of my knowledge, was designed to be a 20+ zone as a sequel to the Outcast and Troll storylines, hence why their leaders are in the Hollows, but was dropped down in level, producing an experience that was hideously out of balance for the level range it was dropped to, all because Kings Row proved to be a bottleneck. Firs of all, you never had to form teams for Frostfire. I fought him in the Issue that the Hollows came out and defeated him by myself. I forget what character I used, but while he was a tough fight, I never needed a team for him. Secondly, NEEDING a team is never fun or exciting. Ever. Not for any reason at all. Needing a team is a chore, a cost, a negative feature to a piece of content which therefore requires that content to hand out larger rewards to compensate people for the time wasted sitting on their hands while a team forms and for the hassle of herding cats. Hogwash. Ignorance is ignorance. Any illusions that being ignorant of the results means you get to have fun making mistakes is empty. What's crap is crap whether you know it or not, and playing it without knowing it's crap just means you'll spend 30 or 40 levels before you realise you've wasted your time, then you'll try something that isn't crap and see how much you've cheated yourself. Maybe you have infinite free time, but I do not, and if I'm going to spend my time levelling up a character, I want to make sure that character won't end up being garbage mid-way through with me having to abandon it and reroll. I refuse to allow my mistake in playing Blasters to ever happen again. Moreover, Gravity Control is not a weak. Yeah, nothing of the sort. You never needed a team for Frostfire, what you needed was to know what you were doing. This is why ignorance is not bliss - because you end up having to find other people to play the game for you. And forced teaming does not encourage socialisation. It encourages resentment. When I'm forced to interact with other people at a time when I don't feel like it, I don't feel like opening my heart up to them. On the contrary, I resent the intrusion and regard them as a necessary evil, ruining my fun and probably ruining their fun in the process. I'll team when I damn please, and if I don't want to team, then I bloody well won't. That's the beauty of choice. Besides, I'm not looking for friends. I'm looking for a fun game to play. If I do make friends with people who play it along the way, that won't be because the game forced other people inside my personal space with about the same grace and dignity as an animal breeder locking two animals together in the same cage. You can't force "friendship" and the harder you try, the harder people resent both you and each other. A fairy tale this ain't. Yes, and such an MMO will tank, and tank hard. In this day and age, MMOs failing and closing their doors is not the theoretical possibility it once was. It's happened to a great many of them. Moreover, the other two MMOs that had customization and no difficulty settings and all the other crap design features you're so attached to ain't doing too good, and it's not because their development teams have cooties. Also, "like in real life" is just about the biggest antithesis of fun I can imagine. I already have a real life. If I wanted an experience that's dull, boring and uninspired, I'd walk away from the computer and "experience" my real life. The reason I'm here is because this ISN'T like real life. That's the beauty of it. Here, I CAN be the hero of my own story. Here, good things can happen to me if only I wish for them hard enough. Here, it's NOT like real life. You just described Champions Online and DC Universe Online. |
I knew taking the long way to a mission was safer than the direct route.
I see nothing wrong with having team content in a MMO. However, I do think in a Superhero MMO it should be something that would tend to require a team storywise, or at least have the option to build a character up to the point of handling a lot of those situations solo.
Soloing AVs. This is what heroes such as Spider-Man and Batman do!
CO and DCUO's customization sucked. Neither was as vast as CoH's, and DCUO locked theirs behind drops. So one couldn't even start with the right weapon for instance. Start with Dual Blades, but you wanted Escrima Sticks! To bad, have to start out with the blades. Grrrr...
There were things they did right though. But they just failed at so many others.
DCUO also failed due to console/PC hybrid.
Though I think if one wanted to creat a new superhero MMO, one should likely play this one to get an idea of how to do it, and then make it better! Really, maybe my Fire/Fire Scrapper should be throwing fireballs sooner than level 41 (which is just recent to get it at that level).
Maybe, having a dual pistol user who can also throw fireballs is something people would want.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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"MMO shooter APB shut down after three months"|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
APB probably has the best character creator out there now in a comparable game.
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I am
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hehehe... so right :P
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I really don't understand a lot of the complaints/reasons why COH needs a "total revamp," or "sequel," or whatever. I see people saying things about customization... Have you ever played 99% of the other, newer MMO's? I'll give you a hint. They give you an outfit to wear. After a while, they give you a new outfit to wear. Custom costumes? Nope. Power customization? Nope. I've seen quite a few that don't even allow for character descriptions to be written by the players.
Sure, I guess some games look "newer," but I think the Atlas Park revamp and Praetoria/First Ward are on par with many newer games aesthetically, and a lot of our costume pieces are really detailed and fancy looking. And then there's that other thing. Did no one else notice that a corporate giant released a game to compete with this one and it flopped while our game continues to succeed? That might tell you something about the quality of this game and what's more important to players. |
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Tells me they should of thought better than to make it console/pc! |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I really don't understand a lot of the complaints/reasons why COH needs a "total revamp," or "sequel," or whatever. I see people saying things about customization... Have you ever played 99% of the other, newer MMO's? I'll give you a hint. They give you an outfit to wear. After a while, they give you a new outfit to wear. Custom costumes? Nope. Power customization? Nope. I've seen quite a few that don't even allow for character descriptions to be written by the players.
Sure, I guess some games look "newer," but I think the Atlas Park revamp and Praetoria/First Ward are on par with many newer games aesthetically, and a lot of our costume pieces are really detailed and fancy looking. And then there's that other thing. Did no one else notice that a corporate giant released a game to compete with this one and it flopped while our game continues to succeed? That might tell you something about the quality of this game and what's more important to players. |
There character customization was also lacking. Nevermind the starting outfits and the outfits that one could get as loot. You're body type was limited to basically one of three shapes.
Now, I'm the first to say the huge model was likely a waste of time to create, but what wasn't, was the body sliders.
Hips, legs, waist, physique, even the chest slider. My character may always use about the same slider positions, but at least it allows me to alter my character even more than the newest competition did.
Now the other competition allowed this to an extent, but then limited it as well. Also the art style just sucked for the most part imo.
Sure, I could make a couple of characters I liked, and the ability to have assymetrical costume pieces was GREAT!But it just failed in other areas so badly. :/
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
No, and here's why...
-CoH has been granted a major graphics update twice successfully.
-CoH has an active joyous playerbase that would be SPLIT if they added a sequel and keep the old game running too. This would of course mean that if they shut down CoH it would be a disaster in the PR department as EVERYONE would complain about they're 50s being lost.
-CoH has graphics equivalent to newer mmos that are coming out. I honestly believe we have BETTER graphics then the other two Superhero MMOs that are there, and I see 1 thing that is in everyday graphics on that newest game everyone is playing, the one that has to do with a galaxy long long ago... animated hair... everything else from animations to the Look is inferior to City in my opinion.
Yes the engine has been changed significantly since release, and to my understanding NCsoft owns CoH lock stock and barrell now, (thank goodness for that... other studios have a really odd management style I just can't stand) so I doubt a new engine would be needed, however CoH is going stronger everyday, and a sequel sends the wrong message to continue that growth.
"when i can savagely beat sheep while issuing ultimatums and torturing people, then i may go back into it" -vara nocturne
Not enough Evil...
I take it back NC SOFT is enough evil for anyone...
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For me, it's seeing a bit of an AT restructuring. I want to beable to use two blades and two pistols at the same time and still have regeneration as an option, for instance.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I really don't understand a lot of the complaints/reasons why COH needs a "total revamp," or "sequel," or whatever. I see people saying things about customization... Have you ever played 99% of the other, newer MMO's? I'll give you a hint. They give you an outfit to wear. After a while, they give you a new outfit to wear. Custom costumes? Nope. Power customization? Nope. I've seen quite a few that don't even allow for character descriptions to be written by the players.
Sure, I guess some games look "newer," but I think the Atlas Park revamp and Praetoria/First Ward are on par with many newer games aesthetically, and a lot of our costume pieces are really detailed and fancy looking. And then there's that other thing. Did no one else notice that a corporate giant released a game to compete with this one and it flopped while our game continues to succeed? That might tell you something about the quality of this game and what's more important to players. |
And while people tend to have a favored AT, with the recent merging of sides when it comes to ATs, a bit of reworking and combining of ATs just sounds like a good idea to me.
As for the art style, still love it. Love the new AP, and when I saw the new characters in beta I was all "OMG the characters look even better!" witht he upped poly count (or some such).
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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It's getting rebooted, but the point stands. APB had the best customization hands down, but without game play to back it up it crashed and burned.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
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I don't mind that we're not the King of Customization anymore, because we're still in the very top tier, and the game play is solid.
Agua Man lvl 48 Water/Electric Blaster
"To die hating NCSoft for shutting down City of Heroes, that was Freedom."
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Its extremely unlikely there will ever be another successful Superhero MMO like this one ever again. You could spend a lot of money trying to make one, but your success rate would not be promising. |
Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age
lol...ok so you're right... ITS ALL HOPELESS. There can NEVER be another successful Superhero MMO after this.....its all over
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You're not going to reinvent this game, and you're not going to just supersede it. If you're going to make a successful Superhero game, you'll have to do something unique, and by definition you'll have no reference point for whether it will work or not until you actually try to launch it.
TOR is making a huge gamble: its basically an MMO Sierra adventure game with lightsabers. There's no way to know if that will be successful long-term, because there's nothing to compare it to. The next successful superhero game, if one comes, will almost certainly be like that: something that takes a totally different spin on it, even if some elements are recognizable.
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CoH2 may come out some day. It may even be great, and I may like it, more than this game for all I know. But if that happens, I'd probably like it for different reasons than I like this game, because (at least in the near future) it is very unlikely that Paragon would produce a "spiritual successor" to CoH1 when it's still alive and well.