TPN Campus Trial at ParagonWiki
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
The link in my sig shows a video with instructions on what to do. The instructions aren't perfect and don't show the location of the buildings, but it does show the basics of this trial. The video also doesn't indicate that the team should assign specific people to click the final two terminals in each building at the same time in order to maximize PO (a feature I dislike, TBH).
Building locations basically go right to left. But you are right that without any map indicators, its kind of a mess.
I'll be honest and say I'm not a big fan of this trial. I made the video just because I figured these kinds of questions would come up. The trial is basically pretty simple but at the same time very confusing and extremely subject to failure if even a single person doesn't know what's going on.
I've only tried TPN once so far, and also failed. Personally I didn't like the split-the-league-up design, it led to a lot of "why are we failing? what's going on out there? what are you guys doing?" and it's frustrating to fail a trial because of events you can't see or influence. However, in our case I think it was ultimately fairly clear what was happening and how we ultimately failed (Pacified to oblivion, as far as I can tell).
I'm sorry to hear you didn't enjoy the trial. Reading about it on paragonwiki, from a forum guide, or even just on the main CoH website, to get an idea of what's going on, helped me be less confused.
In my limited experience, the number one place this trial fails is right after the first phase where you have just defeated Maelstrom inside and have to boost signals in random buildings while the psychics are outside. You start 150 or so Public Opinion. If the league falters at all at during this portion, you will lose in approximately 5 minutes, faster if someone hits a civilian. This is because the Technicians drain public opinion faster and faster the longer they are alive, and the meter starts dangerously close to the fail point already. All of the following will lead to a very quick failure:
- Players not knowing where to go when this phase starts
- Too many people trying to fight psychics
- People trying to fight enemies at the terminals instead of letting taunters pull them
In addition, if the final two terminals aren't clicked within a few seconds of each other, you miss out on an additional +30 public opinion. Most leagues (by that I mean the one league I successfully ran this thing on) reserve terminals C and D for this purpose.
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I think a lot of us are still at the stage where we understand what to do theoretically (we got a thorough explanation of what to do before the trial began and I've read the posted guides more than once before starting the trial) but the practical application is off.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
I've only tried TPN once so far, and also failed. Personally I didn't like the split-the-league-up design, it led to a lot of "why are we failing? what's going on out there? what are you guys doing?" and it's frustrating to fail a trial because of events you can't see or influence. However, in our case I think it was ultimately fairly clear what was happening and how we ultimately failed (Pacified to oblivion, as far as I can tell).
I'm sorry to hear you didn't enjoy the trial. Reading about it on paragonwiki, from a forum guide, or even just on the main CoH website, to get an idea of what's going on, helped me be less confused. |
Basically, the guides describe what to do, but don't give a good mental image of what doing it *looks* like, if that makes any sense (which is why I'm hoping that video will help).
IMO a big failing of TPN is the lack of obvious visual indicators of what to do next; something that BAF and Lambda at least do reasonably well. E.g. if I'm a new player - which I'm not for BAF or Lambda - and I don't really 'get' the chokepoints for the prisoner escape, or I don't have a good mental image of the layout of lambda's courtyard, you can still intuitively figure out:
Oh, there was a splash that said don't let prisoners escape. So I better attack those prisoners running by me, even if I'm not sure exactly where I'm supposed to be, or understand the layout of the facility yet. And if I do think to bring up the map, at least there are marked waypoints that might help me figure out where to be.
Or ... I know I'm supposed to use this temporary power on something called a 'portal', I just don't know where they are exactly or what they're going to look like. Oh wait - there's a whole cutscene that shows them coming on line! And they're really big, obvious, and hard to miss. I might not be familiar yet with what the inside of lambda sector looks like, but I *can* figure out to head toward that big honking, glowing, portal-looking thing, click on it, and use my temporary power.
With BAF and Lambda you can still contribute without knowing yet what doing the right thing *looks* like because the trials have decent visual queues to guide you. With TPN, until you know what doing it correctly *looks* like, it's really easy to get totally lost, even if you understand, in theory, what to do.
M.A. Arcs
Intended for high level play: The Primus Trilogy (Arc #s 10931, 283821, 283825), "Freakshow U" (Arc #189073), Purification (Arc #352381, Dev's Choice!
)Intended for low level play: "Learning the Ropes" (Arc #100304), "Cracking Skulls" (Arc #115935), "The Lazarus Project" (Arc #124906)
Just remember what trials were like the first month or two of them going live, bafs were quite easily failed due to stage 3 and too many escaping 
Bit of practice and those trials will become second nature too.
@Damz Find me on the global channel Union Chat. One of the best "chat channels" ingame!
Complexity is a bad thing in a group of 24 players.
It works in a group of 1. Sometimes. If you're not cooking dinner, replying to tells, or asking your teenager what time they're coming home tonight, and reminding them to call if they're going to be late.
Personally, I dislike anything in the game in which I'm not given instructions in the game. Cutscenes could be used to visually explain what needs to be done, rather than explain about why it's being done (insert bosom joke here). Instead, maps could be utilized, with pulsing stars showing where the mission objectives are, and what they look like. Sutter does this in the ship portion of the TF, and it's well done, and much appreciated. Especially when I can go back and refer to my own map.
Any - and I mean ANY - TF or Trial in which you need to have done it a dozen times before you understand what on earth you're supposed to do, is a fail in my book. BAF would be a pass, because it's easy to understand, filled with action, and the action changes quickly enough to avoid tedium. LAM is fail, because you do have to know which way to go for acids, which way for grenades, where to dig for them if they're not in your tray (in my POWERS?! Seriously??), you have to know where they are on the map, and you need to have the +'s on your level 50 (yes, those very +'s that you are running this trial in order to get), in order to survive it. Yes, it does show you where the portals are and what they look like. But it doesn't show you where the timer is, and that you'd better wait until it hits 18 or the entire team will yell at you. Plus, I find it sort of tedious drudge work up until you fight the Big Guy (which I have to say, is a WHOLE lot of fun!).
I do like a challenge. I like the STF (regardless of any level-boost), for example. Challenge isn't the issue. The issue is the TYPE of challenge. A challenge of skill is great! A challenge that requires a high level of experience in order to succeed, and requires that every single teammate has that level of experience, is a challenge that is not great. Topping it off and saying that you need 18-24 of these experienced people who have nothing else going on in their home/sg/phone/doorbell/dog or personal bladder imperatives/etc., and can thus commit 100% of their energy into completing the objective in order to be likely to succeed?
Yeah, right,
I do wish the creators of the Trials would look at which TF's and Trials people actually enjoy doing, and ask "why" (besides the rewards) a bit more. I mean, ask us, the players. Positron has stated that people do the BAF because it's easy. I think that may be mistaken. At least, I know it's not my reason. First, it's not easy - at least it's not easy for lvl 50's without any pluses. It's just easy to figure out. User-friendly (The BAF is the I-Pod of TF's!). Those new to the Trial can be given a few simple instructions, and you still have a good chance of success, even with new 50's. It's action-filled, which keeps it exciting. And it it does not, in general, feel like herding cats, even if I'm one of the cats.
Ask: why does everyone do the ITF? What makes THAT fun, even though we've done it a zillion times? Why does NO one do the Cathedral of Pain? Why is that UN-fun?
Complexity, cat-herding, and one guy who who just got their first toon to lvl 50 and doesn't understand what to do destroying an entire Trial = bad Trial.
Action-packed, swift-moving, skill-based challenge which can include some brand new 50's just learning the Trial and still have a reasonable chance of success = fun Trial
PS These are just my own opinions. There is no intent whatsoever to put down anyone, or what anyone enjoys doing. I word things strongly when I feel strongly, But my feelings are certainly not facts, so there can be no "right" or "wrong" about them.
Quote:
HD's appearances are not random.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
In my limited experience, the number one place this trial fails is right after the first phase where you have just defeated Maelstrom inside and have to boost signals in random buildings while the psychics are outside.
|
In Phase 2, HD appears in the Main Building. That's the building in the center of the map.
Starting with Phase 3, HD appears in these buildings on the following cycle:
TPN Today (the building with purple lights) ==> Main Building ==> VisualCom (that third building)
I believe Phase 4 restarts the cycle. In any case, once you get booted out of a given building, you can immediately proceed to the next and wait for it to open up.
61866 - A Series of Unfortunate Kidnappings - More than a coincidence?
2260 - The Burning of Hearts - A green-eyed monster holds the match.
379248 - The Spider Without Fangs - NEW - Some lessons learned (more or less.)
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You know, at first noone knew what the hell to do in Lambda and BAF. And people failed them. A lot.|
Originally Posted by Coulomb2
Finally, after a very long time, had a chance to try out the new TPN trial.
We lost. It sucked. It had to do with low public opinion. And something about entering a building I could never find. Well, I *might* have found the building... but at the very least I must not have been at the right doors. ...Kind of makes me want to be on BAF and Lambda, since we can win those. So we did. And won those. I'd say try not to make stuff suck so bad in the future. But... eh... eh... ...you know, if we'd won, I'd have liked the trial. Actually, if I'd known what the hell to do, without trying to keep track of a very complex description of what to do from the team leader, that I *thought* I got ... at least until it the part where it was useless cause I couldn't seem to get to where I was supposed to be or even understand why I was losing. Oh well. Too bad. It sucked. Happy holidays. |
Just saying.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
Trials which I do not enjoy: TPN, MoM, Keyes. I could go into the reasons why, but that's the bottom line. I can get what I need by running BAF and LAM, and that's the salient point.
Removing rewards from BAF and LAM will not prod me into entering these debt-farms, I'll just stop running BAF and LAM too. I say that because even now, some developer somewheres is trying to figure out how to prod us into doing this content, and whatever it is its not going to work. Heading that off at the pass.
I know its not going to work because I'm on Virtue and I continually see people struggling to fill Keyes trials in RWZ, and its strugglestrugglestruggle while someone says "BAF forming, tell for invite" : BAM! they're full, another person says "Speed LAM forming, send tell" and BAM! they're full too. Even UG trials fill fairly fast... The Keyes people are still begging.
Un-fun content is un-fun.
If you are on Freedom, come join me on Friday about 7:30 EST. Believe me, you will have quite the opposite experience.
56 attempts later, Master of the Keyes Island Reactor. Bite Me, Anti Matter.
Quote:
I think it has a LOT to do with the Server you (you in general, not you specifically B_I) are on. Liberty sees multiple UGTs and Keyes almost every night in RWZ as we as the usual BAF/LAM. Keyes is almost a Joke now, and is actually fun, and we are pretty good at succeding at the TPNs as well.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Trials which I do not enjoy: TPN, MoM, Keyes. I could go into the reasons why, but that's the bottom line. I can get what I need by running BAF and LAM, and that's the salient point.
Removing rewards from BAF and LAM will not prod me into entering these debt-farms, I'll just stop running BAF and LAM too. I say that because even now, some developer somewheres is trying to figure out how to prod us into doing this content, and whatever it is its not going to work. Heading that off at the pass. I know its not going to work because I'm on Virtue and I continually see people struggling to fill Keyes trials in RWZ, and its strugglestrugglestruggle while someone says "BAF forming, tell for invite" : BAM! they're full, another person says "Speed LAM forming, send tell" and BAM! they're full too. Even UG trials fill fairly fast... The Keyes people are still begging. Un-fun content is un-fun. |
The UGT we all use to unlock slots then run multiple Keyes/MoMs to get components. (I just damn well wish they would fix the UGT bug that linked the 60 Thread reward to the 8 minute WW badge...)
In one night with a UGT and Keyes or 2 I have enough to build a T3 from scratch, and thats what makes it fun- to me that isn't quite grindy yet.
"Well, there's going to be some light music and a short note of apology saying, 'The universe ended last week, we're really sorry, we don't know what you're doing here, didn't you get the message?'"- Steve Moffat
I actually find TPN very easy. It's easier than Lam for sure. I've failed Lam several times due technical difficulties. People used to (including me) crash during weapon/acid phase which ends up not having enough grenade/acid. I failed Lam another day even though we got 10 grenade/acid because some people in our League just didn't use the grenade. We only used 6 and then we end up dying and trying to get more grenades while being overwhelmed by mobs.
I would rank BAF the easiest and then TPN.
Once people know what to do in TPN (like which building and where to go), it is really easy. You don't even need to split into two teams for inside/outside. You only need to assign 4-6 players outside the building to kill off Telepaths.
We used to fail BAF/Lam all the time. I think part of the bigger problem is that some people just automatically assume the newer trials are harder or not worth the time. Once they tried it a few times, they are really not that hard.
The only one that I think can be really hard is MoM (especially the 2nd phase) if the team's setup is not right.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Incarnate debt? |
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
these debt-farms
|
Quote:
| I say that because even now, some developer somewheres is trying to figure out how to prod us into doing this content, and whatever it is its not going to work. Heading that off at the pass. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Quote:
This, Snow Globe's posts and others like this need to be sent in an e-mail to the devs. |
Originally Posted by _eeek_
Complexity is a bad thing in a group of 24 players.
It works in a group of 1. Sometimes. If you're not cooking dinner, replying to tells, or asking your teenager what time they're coming home tonight, and reminding them to call if they're going to be late. Personally, I dislike anything in the game in which I'm not given instructions in the game. Cutscenes could be used to visually explain what needs to be done, rather than explain about why it's being done (insert bosom joke here). Instead, maps could be utilized, with pulsing stars showing where the mission objectives are, and what they look like. Sutter does this in the ship portion of the TF, and it's well done, and much appreciated. Especially when I can go back and refer to my own map. Any - and I mean ANY - TF or Trial in which you need to have done it a dozen times before you understand what on earth you're supposed to do, is a fail in my book. BAF would be a pass, because it's easy to understand, filled with action, and the action changes quickly enough to avoid tedium. LAM is fail, because you do have to know which way to go for acids, which way for grenades, where to dig for them if they're not in your tray (in my POWERS?! Seriously??), you have to know where they are on the map, and you need to have the +'s on your level 50 (yes, those very +'s that you are running this trial in order to get), in order to survive it. Yes, it does show you where the portals are and what they look like. But it doesn't show you where the timer is, and that you'd better wait until it hits 18 or the entire team will yell at you. Plus, I find it sort of tedious drudge work up until you fight the Big Guy (which I have to say, is a WHOLE lot of fun!). I do like a challenge. I like the STF (regardless of any level-boost), for example. Challenge isn't the issue. The issue is the TYPE of challenge. A challenge of skill is great! A challenge that requires a high level of experience in order to succeed, and requires that every single teammate has that level of experience, is a challenge that is not great. Topping it off and saying that you need 18-24 of these experienced people who have nothing else going on in their home/sg/phone/doorbell/dog or personal bladder imperatives/etc., and can thus commit 100% of their energy into completing the objective in order to be likely to succeed? Yeah, right, I do wish the creators of the Trials would look at which TF's and Trials people actually enjoy doing, and ask "why" (besides the rewards) a bit more. I mean, ask us, the players. Positron has stated that people do the BAF because it's easy. I think that may be mistaken. At least, I know it's not my reason. First, it's not easy - at least it's not easy for lvl 50's without any pluses. It's just easy to figure out. User-friendly (The BAF is the I-Pod of TF's!). Those new to the Trial can be given a few simple instructions, and you still have a good chance of success, even with new 50's. It's action-filled, which keeps it exciting. And it it does not, in general, feel like herding cats, even if I'm one of the cats. Ask: why does everyone do the ITF? What makes THAT fun, even though we've done it a zillion times? Why does NO one do the Cathedral of Pain? Why is that UN-fun? Complexity, cat-herding, and one guy who who just got their first toon to lvl 50 and doesn't understand what to do destroying an entire Trial = bad Trial. Action-packed, swift-moving, skill-based challenge which can include some brand new 50's just learning the Trial and still have a reasonable chance of success = fun Trial PS These are just my own opinions. There is no intent whatsoever to put down anyone, or what anyone enjoys doing. I word things strongly when I feel strongly, But my feelings are certainly not facts, so there can be no "right" or "wrong" about them. |
The reality is people are not running the trials and people like this cat and Snow Globe have told the devs why and what to do to fix it. Unfortunately the devs and a small vocal group of forumites are not really listening or really trying to "understand".
Instead you have the devs originally trying nerfs, and thinking about punishment and restrictions for not playing their way. You also have people trying to tell others that they should be having fun playing something that they just explained is flawed, why its flawed and how to fix it.
If there is one thing I would like to get across to the devs and fellow forumites is this is not about having failed a trial or trials being too hard. Its "ALL" about the wider player base and why they play the content and why they play some content over other content.
Until the devs develop a mindset that takes this into account they will continue to produce hit and miss content and since there are answers to Positron's questions they "really" need to listen to the answers.
I like and respect the fact that their are players here MORE than willing to lead a pug in an itrial to "prove" they can be completed, and they can. Kotchie led my first TPN and he is an UNREAL leader. He must have a ton of TPN specific binds because nobody could type that fast and play the game. He had paragraph's long instructions at the proper time etc.. I have run several since then but nothing like the leadership shown there and most of the group was running it for the very first time.
Having said all of that it goes back to what is at the foundation of the problem here, after a successful first run TPN, the league pretty much stated it was not as fun as other trials and because of that they would not readily run it again and certainly not over more fun activities for them.
The answers for Posi and the rest of the devs has been given several times in these threads, its on them to listen now or continue down this unfortunate road wherein he "thinks" people play the BAF more because its "easy". That my friends shows a serious disconnect that surely needs to be reconnected moving forward and I hope for all of our sakes that it is, because I LOVE COX.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Or we will not play them and move on to other parts of the game or other games. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Incarnate debt?
If the next 5 slots have different types of IXP that are only available on new Trials, then players will play them - nothing can head that off |
just dumb down everything
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There are plenty of new players |
Originally Posted by fallenz
Or we will not play them and move on to other parts of the game or other games.
|
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
Although I agree with a lot of the comments in this thread, such as the trails lacking 'good' instructions etc..the idea of ANY of the trials somehow requiring a dozen runs JUST to work out whats going on is a load of crap. Maybe if you are an idiot and just jugged of the spot for the previous 11 runs at it.
As much as I agree that the temp powers in LAm are annoying, with people failing to use them..let us be honest. Is it HARD? No. People are just clueless, first timers, or stupid. Anything else and it is quite simple to work out that when a text pop up shows on your screens, you have a temp power. No to mention the team leader or whoever TALKING about temps.
When TPN and MoM came out, I did about 5 of each in the first day. And shock horror, we failed all BUT 2. The last 2. So 12 runs..again, is not realistic. Maybe if it is 12 runs with a 100% new league each time?
And to the OP..you failed one of the newest tasks in the game, on your first try? Man, that has NEVER happened before? Right? So now you hate it...yet..if you won, it would suddenly have been great. How about a few more attempts?
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Okay, you keep repeating that. |
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
There are plenty of new players
|
Quote:
I meet new players every time I log in - some of them will become VIPs, and to them, the Trials will be normal.|
Originally Posted by fallenz
Okay, you keep repeating that.
|
Staring with the Sewer Trial, the game is now teaching players the basic of Trials - and with more Trials being add to the LFG tab like the Halloween and Winter Trials, the whole Trial system will be as normal as running a story arc to all the the post-Freedom players.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
TPN isn't complex. Running a trial ONCE and calling it horrible because you didn't know what to do is stupid. There are plenty of things YOU could have done to have figured out what to do, (ask for clarification, ask for a teleport, read a guide, follow other players, etc), instead of waiting for everyone else to beat the trial for you (which they didn't), and sometimes there are bad runs, which you were probably on. Currently TPN has the best rewards for the time spent and success rate of any trial out there, and as I said it is not complex, run it a few more times and you will see how repetitve the trials mechanics are, its extremely simple.
Quote:
Clearly it wasn't un-fun (to the OP) because they failed. It was un-fun because the trial did not provide adequate information to succeed.|
Originally Posted by MisterD
And to the OP..you failed one of the newest tasks in the game, on your first try? Man, that has NEVER happened before? Right? So now you hate it...yet..if you won, it would suddenly have been great. How about a few more attempts?
|
Look, there is no other area of the game in which mission failure is the norm the first time through it. I can't remember the last time I failed a mission, period, much less failed it for lack of knowing what to do to succeed. The Incarnate trials are unique in this respect. There is virtually 0% success rate amongst first-time raiders for any given trial. This is not all due to lack of coordination, or lack of experience with the game in general. It is primarily due to the trials not making it clear what is about to happen, what needs to be done about it, and with clues as to how to accomplish those goals effectively. This is a 180-degree flip in terms of content design philosophy, and I have not yet heard a single convincing argument in favor of it.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
I failed TPN the first 6 times I tried it. I now believe while leading at least I can complete it successful at least 9 times out of ten, even with new players present. My last 3 have been easy successes.
So in summary, no, TPN really isn't that hard, it just has a learning curb. Once you figure out the strategy and have a leader who knows how to lead simply without using the wall of text thing, it's quite easy to win.
Finally, after a very long time, had a chance to try out the new TPN trial.
We lost. It sucked. It had to do with low public opinion. And something about entering a building I could never find. Well, I *might* have found the building... but at the very least I must not have been at the right doors.
...Kind of makes me want to be on BAF and Lambda, since we can win those.
So we did. And won those.
I'd say try not to make stuff suck so bad in the future. But...
eh...
eh...
...you know, if we'd won, I'd have liked the trial.
Actually, if I'd known what the hell to do, without trying to keep track of a very complex description of what to do from the team leader, that I *thought* I got ... at least until it the part where it was useless cause I couldn't seem to get to where I was supposed to be or even understand why I was losing.
Oh well. Too bad.
It sucked.
Happy holidays.
M.A. Arcs
Intended for high level play: The Primus Trilogy (Arc #s 10931, 283821, 283825), "Freakshow U" (Arc #189073), Purification (Arc #352381, Dev's Choice!
Intended for low level play: "Learning the Ropes" (Arc #100304), "Cracking Skulls" (Arc #115935), "The Lazarus Project" (Arc #124906)