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Again, I AGREE that most of the trails do not have enough instructions...for a good portion of general players. But where do you draw the line? DO the devs spoon feed us every section, with big flashing arrows and stuff? Then you know people will start moaning that we dont seem to have any freedom, within the constraints of the objectives!|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
Clearly it wasn't un-fun (to the OP) because they failed. It was un-fun because the trial did not provide adequate information to succeed.
Look, there is no other area of the game in which mission failure is the norm the first time through it. I can't remember the last time I failed a mission, period, much less failed it for lack of knowing what to do to succeed. The Incarnate trials are unique in this respect. There is virtually 0% success rate amongst first-time raiders for any given trial. This is not all due to lack of coordination, or lack of experience with the game in general. It is primarily due to the trials not making it clear what is about to happen, what needs to be done about it, and with clues as to how to accomplish those goals effectively. This is a 180-degree flip in terms of content design philosophy, and I have not yet heard a single convincing argument in favor of it. |
I was talking with a friend before, about how she failed a ton of trails when they first came out. And I did the same with tpn/mom. I think that is a..GOOD thing. Think about it. Do we want every new trail (and TF to a lesser extent) to be simple from the word GO, with little challenge? Again, I am NOT saying teh trails cant use some better instructions..but if say, when we get it, the Cole Trial comes out and the first random pug team on Live finishes it without a hitch..I call THAT a failure.
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Some people do enjoy this type of gameplay. There, how more convincing an argument do you want? First CoH didn't cater to this subsection of players and now it does. If people don't enjoy that, then that's fine. Surely some fine tuning can be done in an attempt to make the trials more widely appealing, but completely dumbing them down or stopping with releasing this type of content altogether like I see some people advocating on the forums really shouldn't be an option.|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
Clearly it wasn't un-fun (to the OP) because they failed. It was un-fun because the trial did not provide adequate information to succeed.
Look, there is no other area of the game in which mission failure is the norm the first time through it. I can't remember the last time I failed a mission, period, much less failed it for lack of knowing what to do to succeed. The Incarnate trials are unique in this respect. There is virtually 0% success rate amongst first-time raiders for any given trial. This is not all due to lack of coordination, or lack of experience with the game in general. It is primarily due to the trials not making it clear what is about to happen, what needs to be done about it, and with clues as to how to accomplish those goals effectively. This is a 180-degree flip in terms of content design philosophy, and I have not yet heard a single convincing argument in favor of it. |
When the new trials launched I joined a group of people to do the TPN for the first time. We failed horribly. We talked it over, made a strategy and failed horribly again. We talked it over again, changed our strategy and proceeded to ace it. Best time I've had in months in this game.
All the instructions are there in the trial by the way, either in the mission target window or in pop up messages on screen. Granted, I missed some of them in the chaos the first time around too. So something might be done about that.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
Sorry, when people say that people like Snow Globe has made suggestions that "dumb things down", I wonder if they even read and more importantly "understood" what the man is actually saying.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
The Incarnate trials are unique in this respect. There is virtually 0% success rate amongst first-time raiders for any given trial. This is not all due to lack of coordination, or lack of experience with the game in general. It is primarily due to the trials not making it clear what is about to happen, what needs to be done about it, and with clues as to how to accomplish those goals effectively. This is a 180-degree flip in terms of content design philosophy, and I have not yet heard a single convincing argument in favor of it.
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Originally Posted by MisterD
Again, I AGREE that most of the trails do not have enough instructions...for a good portion of general players. But where do you draw the line? DO the devs spoon feed us every section, with big flashing arrows and stuff? Then you know people will start moaning that we dont seem to have any freedom, within the constraints of the objectives!
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I do not think the trials should be a cake walk to complete. I also do not think the trials (or any content for that matter) should require multiple runs just to figure it out.
Here's the line that needs to be drawn: in general (not exclusively), the time in which a certain task needs to be completed should be completely in the control of players, which is compliant with the rest of the game. If you (the player) at first do not succeed against a particular mission boss, you get defeated, but you do not need to start that mission over. Rather, you revive or go to the hospital, and you come back with a new strategy.
When one starts a puzzle, a literal cardboard puzzle, one does not start over every time they get stumped on where a certain piece fits. Rather, the person looks and looks until they find where it belongs.
Each trial's strategy is a puzzle to figure out, with each individual phase requiring at least a slight variation from a previous phase. However, unlike a cardboard puzzle, the league is under the pressure of an arbitrary time limit. If their initial strategy is failing, it will usually lead to the failure of the trial due to the countdown.
Since this topic is about TPN, I'll use that as an example, specifically phase 3. Here, the league is already dealing with Public Opinion slowly decreasing, as well as the health of H.D. depleting unless proper countermeasures are taken. Both of these are time-sensitive in that the trial fails should either of those meters reach zero. Yet there is a completely arbitrary timer on the phase, over which the players have no control. Therefore, there is little to no time for a league to change strategies mid-trial, most likely leading to failure, and thus leading to frustration since players will either be out of time or at least have to start over from scratch.
In summary (TL;DR)
If the trials were less time sensitive, and players had time to figure out strategies mid-trial rather than having to repeatedly start over, people might enjoy them a bit more. Initial runs would take a long time while a strategy was formulated, but in figuring it out without having to start over, frustrations would decrease, and eventually run times would be faster as people figured out the best and fastest strategy.
@Winter. Because I'm Winter. Period.
I am a blaster first, and an alt-oholic second.
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This is just pure opinion on my part, but I actually think the pinnacle of great design in something like this is to have things balanced enough for the "typical" first run to be a victory, but a very narrow, skin-of-your teeth, *ugly* victory. With experience, repeat runs get smooth, efficient, and even easy. But you've still got that chance to loose (after all, you might not always try with an experienced team, and the rolls may go against you). But losing isn't the *typical* price for inexperience. Just a possible one. That's actually what Lamba, BAF, and Keyes were like first time I was on them. And, although very rare, I've lost Lambdas and BAFs a few times - typically when the team was inexperienced and things just didn't go well. But more often than not, an inexperienced team on those trials results in an "ugly" victory, but one none the less. A true loss only seems to happen enough to remind you that it *is* possible; it's not the usual result.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
This is the adjustment some people are having problems with
 For the Trials to be challenging, they need to have a risk of failure which isn't really present in the non-Trial parts of the game, apart from some of the tougher TFs. |
But to switch the subject a bit to the snippet I quoted...
I inadvertently stumbled across another in-game example that isn't a trial. I was playing a very low-level alt, and did the King's Row safeguard. I was on a Stalker, and honestly forgot I didn't have any mez protection yet. Thanks to AS, the villain boss was quickly reduced to a sliver of life. Then he stunned me. No break frees. Evidently, he's got a bunch of attacks that can stun too ... 'cause I never came out of it. So I died. Tried to intercept the villain before he could get to the escape point, and learned that that outdoor "lookout" (and "guard") spawn you find milling around the bank must actually be there to escort the villain once he gets out of the base. I was overwhelmed and defeated again. Villain got away, mission failed.
Was I mad I failed? Yep. (I'm human. I don't like to lose. And I really don't like to waste time, and having to run scanner missions again to regain the safeguard wasn't fun.) Did it make me think Safeguard missions suck? Nope.
Why?
Because I knew what I was supposed to do - even though I failed to actually get it done. And I knew why I lost. I even knew exactly where to go when things started turning south (what with there being a map tab that even says "robber's getaway truck").
I had all the information I needed in-game to know what to do to win. Just didn't get it done.
M.A. Arcs
Intended for high level play: The Primus Trilogy (Arc #s 10931, 283821, 283825), "Freakshow U" (Arc #189073), Purification (Arc #352381, Dev's Choice!
)Intended for low level play: "Learning the Ropes" (Arc #100304), "Cracking Skulls" (Arc #115935), "The Lazarus Project" (Arc #124906)
I wish I could play incarnate trials right now...I want to see if you an use knockback to move civilians out of AoE range.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Incarnate debt?
If the next 5 slots have different types of IXP that are only available on new Trials, then players will play them - nothing can head that off  |
Dark Astoria.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Who I won't be inviting to a TPN. Brand new 50s need to get their +1s first or need not apply for a TPN team.
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Originally Posted by Golden Girl
There are plenty of new players
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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...and once you jump over the curb, you're fine? |
Originally Posted by catwhowalksbyhimself
...it just has a learning curb.
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That's one of those misspellings that has it's own internal logic... in fact, there ought to be a word for that, and there is!
eggcorn:
n. An idiosyncratic but semantically motivated substitution of a word or phrase for a word or words that sound identical, or nearly so, at least in the dialect the speaker uses.
"The key to an eggcorn is that it is a mis-hearing by a native speaker that has its own internal logic.
As in "learning curb" for "learning curve".
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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In similar vein (tee hee), what's the word they use to describe using the plural form of a word to describe a single item? Something like "series," "species" or "agenda"...
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Originally Posted by Organica
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Originally Posted by _eeek_
Complexity is a bad thing in a group of 24 players.
It works in a group of 1. Sometimes. If you're not cooking dinner, replying to tells, or asking your teenager what time they're coming home tonight, and reminding them to call if they're going to be late. Personally, I dislike anything in the game in which I'm not given instructions in the game. Cutscenes could be used to visually explain what needs to be done, rather than explain about why it's being done (insert bosom joke here). Instead, maps could be utilized, with pulsing stars showing where the mission objectives are, and what they look like. Sutter does this in the ship portion of the TF, and it's well done, and much appreciated. Especially when I can go back and refer to my own map. Any - and I mean ANY - TF or Trial in which you need to have done it a dozen times before you understand what on earth you're supposed to do, is a fail in my book. BAF would be a pass, because it's easy to understand, filled with action, and the action changes quickly enough to avoid tedium. LAM is fail, because you do have to know which way to go for acids, which way for grenades, where to dig for them if they're not in your tray (in my POWERS?! Seriously??), you have to know where they are on the map, and you need to have the +'s on your level 50 (yes, those very +'s that you are running this trial in order to get), in order to survive it. Yes, it does show you where the portals are and what they look like. But it doesn't show you where the timer is, and that you'd better wait until it hits 18 or the entire team will yell at you. Plus, I find it sort of tedious drudge work up until you fight the Big Guy (which I have to say, is a WHOLE lot of fun!). I do like a challenge. I like the STF (regardless of any level-boost), for example. Challenge isn't the issue. The issue is the TYPE of challenge. A challenge of skill is great! A challenge that requires a high level of experience in order to succeed, and requires that every single teammate has that level of experience, is a challenge that is not great. Topping it off and saying that you need 18-24 of these experienced people who have nothing else going on in their home/sg/phone/doorbell/dog or personal bladder imperatives/etc., and can thus commit 100% of their energy into completing the objective in order to be likely to succeed? Yeah, right, I do wish the creators of the Trials would look at which TF's and Trials people actually enjoy doing, and ask "why" (besides the rewards) a bit more. I mean, ask us, the players. Positron has stated that people do the BAF because it's easy. I think that may be mistaken. At least, I know it's not my reason. First, it's not easy - at least it's not easy for lvl 50's without any pluses. It's just easy to figure out. User-friendly (The BAF is the I-Pod of TF's!). Those new to the Trial can be given a few simple instructions, and you still have a good chance of success, even with new 50's. It's action-filled, which keeps it exciting. And it it does not, in general, feel like herding cats, even if I'm one of the cats. Ask: why does everyone do the ITF? What makes THAT fun, even though we've done it a zillion times? Why does NO one do the Cathedral of Pain? Why is that UN-fun? Complexity, cat-herding, and one guy who who just got their first toon to lvl 50 and doesn't understand what to do destroying an entire Trial = bad Trial. Action-packed, swift-moving, skill-based challenge which can include some brand new 50's just learning the Trial and still have a reasonable chance of success = fun Trial PS These are just my own opinions. There is no intent whatsoever to put down anyone, or what anyone enjoys doing. I word things strongly when I feel strongly, But my feelings are certainly not facts, so there can be no "right" or "wrong" about them. |
This is about the best post I've seen on any if the Incarnate Content.
Sadly I fear it'll fall on blind eyes. The Devs know what's best for us. Trust them
Thelonious Monk
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Okay, I will concede that is a good reason. I will, however, speculate that the devs delivered this type of gameplay not in response to customer demand for it, but due to a lack of design sophistication within their ranks. I know that's sort of an ugly think to suggest, but it adheres to Occam's Razor better than the alternative, at least to my mind.|
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
Some people do enjoy this type of gameplay. There, how more convincing an argument do you want?
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Originally Posted by TrueMetal
Surely some fine tuning can be done in an attempt to make the trials more widely appealing, but completely dumbing them down or stopping with releasing this type of content altogether like I see some people advocating on the forums really shouldn't be an option.
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NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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The devs actually need to listen to this guy and Snow Globe. They have outlined the issue very very well.
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Originally Posted by Scarlet Shocker
This is about the best post I've seen on any if the Incarnate Content.
Sadly I fear it'll fall on blind eyes. The Devs know what's best for us. Trust them |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Such as?
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Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
There are a lot of alternatives to completely dumbing things down, all of which fall squarely in the "improve gameplay" department. Alternatives that make the resulting trials play very differently than they do now, but are neither dumb, simple, or unchallenging.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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They do already. This is pretty much standard for any MMO dev team, they listen to whoever ******* and moans the loudest. And it shows *looks at the sad state of the keyes trial and the overall difficulty level of everything else in this game*
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
The devs actually need to listen to this guy and Snow Globe. They have outlined the issue very very well.
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Well, for starters dispensing with the Boss Fight as the one and only final objective of every trial would help.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Such as?
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For instance, the Lambda sector trial could have been about trying to sabotage the place without getting captured (where being defeated means being locked in confinement rather than teleporting to a "hospital"). Captured toons must be freed if they are to contribute any more to the effort, but that risks splitting up the team into sabotagers and rescuers. Furthermore, the sabotage wouldn't be in the form of destroying containment chambers or weapons caches, but by setting explosive charges in key areas of the compound. These charges could be "undone" by IDF engineers who can disarm them, perhaps requiring some toons to be on "distract the engineers" duty. And then have the possibility that if the team's efforts are detected on a wide enough scale, then Marauder is called in to deal with the threat, but he isn't necessarily the uber version he is now, but just enough of a problem to throw a wrench into the overall sabotaging efforts. And maybe there are glowies in the facility, representing makeshift bombs, that can be clicked that turn into sabotage charges. The idea is to have an overall goal that is undestandable: set X number of charges and then escape (which triggers their detonation), but provide multiple means of achieving it, along with multiple independent complications and obstacles that threaten the effort.
I mean, the Lambda trial is billed as a sabotage mission but it doesn't feel like one. Instead it feels like a series of unrelated activities that just happen to end in a Big Boss Fight, just like all the others.
Keyes suffers from a withering sameness in every phase of it, until the Big Boss Fight at the end. I think the whole thing should just be one reactor, or the reactor cluster should be treated as just one big system with multiple aspects to it that need to be addressed in order to prevent Anti-Matter from using it as a power source when he shows up (if he shows up).
I'm sure if the members of this forum really made a project out of it, they could easily redesign the trials to be much more interesting, much more dynamic, and much more challenging without resorting to binary gimmicks and the compulsory Boss Fight, which always boils down to nothing more than the application of overwhelming dps (with debuffs in support). I mean, I think the overall storyline of taking out Emperor Cole's ability to conduct his invasion is a reasonably good one, but I think many of the details, both in terms of story and in design, need some major reworking. I like the ideas behind the Lambda and Keyes trials, and even the Underground trial has lots of potential if only it weren't also on a rail. But BAF feel like nothing more than an assassination mission, MoM is great storywise but relies too much on avoidance gimmicks, and TPN is just plain dumb in every sense I can think of.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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Listening to constructive criticism is totally ok - but totally negative criticism can be ignored.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
They do already. This is pretty much standard for any MMO dev team, they listen to whoever ******* and moans the loudest. And it shows *looks at the sad state of the keyes trial and the overall difficulty level of everything else in this game*
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
The fact that it seems so many players have given up on trials that they have failed a handful of times angers me... I WANT to run these new trials as they have better rewards!
But because little Sally and Billy couldn't win in their first attempt with a giant unperpared pug by mindlyless pushing attack keys I have to wait around all day ignoring BAF and Lam seekers while i take 30+ minutes just to form a league for UG.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
They do already. This is pretty much standard for any MMO dev team, they listen to whoever ******* and moans the loudest. And it shows *looks at the sad state of the keyes trial and the overall difficulty level of everything else in this game*
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Right. Keyes was a much better investment for the game back when no one wanted to play it.
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Why do you think people do it now? Because its mind numbingly easy and has rewards that far exceed the risk. Just because it's getting farmed doesn't mean it's good.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Right. Keyes was a much better investment for the game back when no one wanted to play it.
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I don't think "any" players are responsible for the gimmicks in the Keyes, MOM or TPN trials. That is the sole domain of the devs.
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
They do already. This is pretty much standard for any MMO dev team, they listen to whoever ******* and moans the loudest. And it shows *looks at the sad state of the keyes trial and the overall difficulty level of everything else in this game*
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
The methods needed to sucessed in all of the Incarnate trials are all mind numbling simple. The only reason people in this game think they are hard is because..well people are complete morons when there are so many players running around they don't think they have to work as hard or read League chat. I see the same problem in that other game's Insanced based Largescale pvp maps. No one follows direction and everyone Zergs..even if you need to do more then just zerg..people just ignore everythign and zerg.
That isn't the Dev teams fault, it's the Leaguemembers fault for being a lazy and Unattentive.
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A number of great points I agree with. The ITF is ran over and over and over again because it's just simply tons of fun, rewards or no.|
Originally Posted by _eeek_
Complexity is a bad thing in a group of 24 players.
It works in a group of 1. Sometimes. If you're not cooking dinner, replying to tells, or asking your teenager what time they're coming home tonight, and reminding them to call if they're going to be late. Personally, I dislike anything in the game in which I'm not given instructions in the game. Cutscenes could be used to visually explain what needs to be done, rather than explain about why it's being done (insert bosom joke here). Instead, maps could be utilized, with pulsing stars showing where the mission objectives are, and what they look like. Sutter does this in the ship portion of the TF, and it's well done, and much appreciated. Especially when I can go back and refer to my own map. Any - and I mean ANY - TF or Trial in which you need to have done it a dozen times before you understand what on earth you're supposed to do, is a fail in my book. BAF would be a pass, because it's easy to understand, filled with action, and the action changes quickly enough to avoid tedium. LAM is fail, because you do have to know which way to go for acids, which way for grenades, where to dig for them if they're not in your tray (in my POWERS?! Seriously??), you have to know where they are on the map, and you need to have the +'s on your level 50 (yes, those very +'s that you are running this trial in order to get), in order to survive it. Yes, it does show you where the portals are and what they look like. But it doesn't show you where the timer is, and that you'd better wait until it hits 18 or the entire team will yell at you. Plus, I find it sort of tedious drudge work up until you fight the Big Guy (which I have to say, is a WHOLE lot of fun!). I do like a challenge. I like the STF (regardless of any level-boost), for example. Challenge isn't the issue. The issue is the TYPE of challenge. A challenge of skill is great! A challenge that requires a high level of experience in order to succeed, and requires that every single teammate has that level of experience, is a challenge that is not great. Topping it off and saying that you need 18-24 of these experienced people who have nothing else going on in their home/sg/phone/doorbell/dog or personal bladder imperatives/etc., and can thus commit 100% of their energy into completing the objective in order to be likely to succeed? Yeah, right, I do wish the creators of the Trials would look at which TF's and Trials people actually enjoy doing, and ask "why" (besides the rewards) a bit more. I mean, ask us, the players. Positron has stated that people do the BAF because it's easy. I think that may be mistaken. At least, I know it's not my reason. First, it's not easy - at least it's not easy for lvl 50's without any pluses. It's just easy to figure out. User-friendly (The BAF is the I-Pod of TF's!). Those new to the Trial can be given a few simple instructions, and you still have a good chance of success, even with new 50's. It's action-filled, which keeps it exciting. And it it does not, in general, feel like herding cats, even if I'm one of the cats. Ask: why does everyone do the ITF? What makes THAT fun, even though we've done it a zillion times? Why does NO one do the Cathedral of Pain? Why is that UN-fun? Complexity, cat-herding, and one guy who who just got their first toon to lvl 50 and doesn't understand what to do destroying an entire Trial = bad Trial. Action-packed, swift-moving, skill-based challenge which can include some brand new 50's just learning the Trial and still have a reasonable chance of success = fun Trial PS These are just my own opinions. There is no intent whatsoever to put down anyone, or what anyone enjoys doing. I word things strongly when I feel strongly, But my feelings are certainly not facts, so there can be no "right" or "wrong" about them. |
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Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Trials which I do not enjoy: TPN, MoM, Keyes. I could go into the reasons why, but that's the bottom line. I can get what I need by running BAF and LAM, and that's the salient point.
Removing rewards from BAF and LAM will not prod me into entering these debt-farms, I'll just stop running BAF and LAM too. I say that because even now, some developer somewheres is trying to figure out how to prod us into doing this content, and whatever it is its not going to work. Heading that off at the pass. I know its not going to work because I'm on Virtue and I continually see people struggling to fill Keyes trials in RWZ, and its strugglestrugglestruggle while someone says "BAF forming, tell for invite" : BAM! they're full, another person says "Speed LAM forming, send tell" and BAM! they're full too. Even UG trials fill fairly fast... The Keyes people are still begging. Un-fun content is un-fun. |
What I hope to see is more 'casual friendly' iTrials that are more in line with the most popular content in the game and the general playerbase playstyle of the game. More straightforward trials. More trials that actually explain what to do (rather than requiring you read a player written guide first). And more 'any team makeup with great players can succeed' type trials.
Member of:
Repeat Offenders Network - The Largest Coalition Network in the Game, across Virtue, Freedom, Justice and Exalted. Open to all, check us out.
Current Team Project: Pending
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I think we left this kind of thinking several pages ago. This is not about the trials being too hard or people being morons or lazy. Makes me wonder if one has actually been following the thread or just lazily spot checked and decided "incorrectly" the issue is the level of difficultly vs the reality of poor design choices that is at issue here.
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Originally Posted by Matthew_Orlock
The methods needed to sucessed in all of the Incarnate trials are all mind numbling simple. The only reason people in this game think they are hard is because..well people are complete morons when there are so many players running around they don't think they have to work as hard or read League chat. I see the same problem in that other game's Insanced based Largescale pvp maps. No one follows direction and everyone Zergs..even if you need to do more then just zerg..people just ignore everythign and zerg.
That isn't the Dev teams fault, it's the Leaguemembers fault for being a lazy and Unattentive. |
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
For the Trials to be challenging, they need to have a risk of failure which isn't really present in the non-Trial parts of the game, apart from some of the tougher TFs.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork