Traps, Devices and the "out of combat" concept
A long time ago in a forum far far away I suggested that trip mines be location powers like caltrops, and separate from being tripped they could also be detonated by the blaster that cast them and *only* the blaster that cast them by shooting at them. At the time, the mechanics to allow that didn't exist. Today, I think they kind of sort of do.
The very specific parameters of the suggestion were that it added a new way to use the mines without damaging the existing way of using them for players used to using them the old way. Anyone using Trip Mines in the current normal fashion would be able to use these almost exactly the same, but they could also be used in other ways for other purposes. |
Then again, I was also convinced that making Assassin's Strike not suck when used out of hide would make it overpowered and that's evidently happening, and I'm sure someone at some point made the argument that Elude would be overpowered if it didn't make you "only affecting self." But like I said, I doubt that would be an easy sell.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
Caltrops is quite good actually. Slows things down, does some damage, bunches them up, and confuses the AI.
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And running enemies make me more angry than they really should.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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That's an interesting point.
How ARE people currently using Time Bomb? |
When Omega was first released on test for VEATs, I commented that it should have been a light grenade. In fact, the taunt may have been added after I made that joke, so VEATs you're welcome.
That might be worth time bomb's 9 second cast time.
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Trip Mine? One type of power that I'm not sure we have in the game quite yet is 'delayed effect' type powers. You can basically time when damage occurs, right (an attack does [X] dmg after w sec then [Y] DoT after z sec for u.n sec). I had suggested a Stalker melee set whose attack animations were all *really* fast but the damage of the attack was *really* delayed so that, you could activate the 3 fast/delayed dmg attacks then hit with the regular attacks creating a BURST as all the damage hit in a short period...basically what some of the projectile travel times result in in Psy Blast.
For trip mine, pretty simple. Shorten the cast time (and remove the interruptibility) but delay the actual proximity sensor. You'd be able to do exactly what you can do now with Trip Mines (even better, in fact, since the power would start recharging immediately after you click it vs waiting for the long interrupt period to finish) but also use it mid combat if the foe warrants its use (i.e. stays in place or is moving toward your mine).
For Time Bomb? Well, what about in-game proximity time bombs? You know the ones that start counting down when you get near them? And how you can destroy them with damage?
I say, keep Time Bombs ridiculous cast time and interrupt time but greatly reduce its recharge. I should be able to, as a Traps/Devices character, take 45min to an hour and a half to rig up half a warehouse with trip mines and time bombs so that, if a foe is folly enough to run across my mines or steps near my time bomb to trigger its countdown (or I can just shoot my own bomb to start the fireworks), I should damn well be able to vaporize the whole damned map in an instant, not just a couple spawns at a time. My tripped mines should cause my time bombs to explode resulting in a domino effect of epic tactical proportions!
But even in regular combat, those changes would be somewhat useful.
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I almost want to say that removing the interrupt on Trip Mine would immediately make it overpowered.
Okay, maybe not, but as it is it's a fast, half-powered, crashless nuke, particularly in Traps. Poison Trap + Trip Mine is beautifully strong and will break a spawn, and if there was no interrupt I'd probably just mow through spawns without even needing my pets. As it is, if I get interrupted more than twice when trying to place a Trip Mine midcombat, that's a signal to me that I need to switch tactics. Otherwise 90% of my approach to combat would be "blow it up until it goes away." But if the interrupt does go away I certainly won't object. |
Maybe a new mechanic such as..if the damage taken is under X threshold, you will not be interupted. Just like a mozzy bite would not stop you driving a car (or whatever) in the same way as being hit by a log would.
Oh and another thing..yes, NPCs do cheat a lot, but how can something with snow storm, darkest night and standing in a tar patch..manage to get a snipe off?
The idea of changing snipes to be like the upcoming Assassin's Strike redo sounds quite good to me. Increased damage with interrupt while out of combat, decreased damage, shorter cast/no interrupt while in combat. Makes it a viable power to use while in combat.
Trip Mine I have no real problem with at the moment; the long cast time is a bit annoying, but I do enjoy toe-bombing groups while solo. I wouldn't be against a change though, might make it more interesting if I could use it for some other purpose.
I agree with Sam. Most of these powers should be modified to fit the new game reality. Especially Devices which is by far the weakest Blaster secondary. I would even go farther and say that Rest should have its recharge, debuff and activation time removed entirely. Leave the interrupt. Having spent the last couple of weeks in a galaxy far, far way, I have really come to an even stronger belief that balancing around downtime is a dumb mechanic.
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It shows that a game can be harder without relying on slow, do-nothing-for-a-while powers.
My namesake Commander Beet is an Energy/Devices Blaster, I made him back in last 2005/early 2006 (Can't quite remember..). I was a slow leveler, with lots of alts and also roleplaying when possible, so by 2007 when I finally got high enough for Time Bomb I took it.
I used it as much as possible up to 44, at which point I went out of my way to get the final respec and be rid of that awful waste of time and endurance. Even back then, teams were too fast to waste 20 seconds of waiting to do any damage. While leveling up, it was useless, sometimes people would humour me because they hadn't seen Time Bomb before so I got to use it, shortly followed by a 'lol that took ages' and it never being used again as we went through the next group/s faster than the Time Bombed group. Even solo it was useless, Trip Mine did enough damage by itself to not warrant the need for Time Bomb's.
Time Bomb's damage is fine, about the same as a Nuke except (As far as I can tell) not effected or not given the full effect of Aim/Insp/buffs, I'm always happy to have a second nuke (<3 Judgement). The endurance is fine, it's crashless damage without being free. It's the Animation, Interrupt and Detonation time which is broken. I fully agree that such monotonous, boring waiting times aren't needed in this game, especially with things like Shield Charge/Lightning Rod, Warburg rockets and Judgement attacks.
Here are the changes I'd like to see:
Trip Mine's interrupt changed to 2 seconds, animation to 3, recharge to 25
Time Bomb's interrupt and animation time changed to Trip Mine's current, the count down lowered to 3 secons with a hologram-esque big flashy count-down above it of 3 - 2 - 1
Triage Beacon becoming a floating machine to follow you, use a recoloured/textured Targetting Drone like the Veteren/Lore pets
Make Snipe attacks have a 33.34% chance to crit, with Aim and Build Up each adding a 33.34% chance for it to crit (With Cloaking Device giving a 33.34% chance crit when hidden)
I can understand why powers have an interrupt time, but as they are there are either better alternatives for the time it takes or it's so boring no team will ever wait for it to be used effectively.
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I find that Traps and Devices do a wide variety of tasks a little differently.
Devices has Smoke Grenade, which is quite a bit more useful than you might think, and the changes to the Gun Drone have made it very viable, especially with the adjustment to the Defiance buff (I remember hearing about an Ice/Devices Blaster who could get THREE Gun Drones going at a time). Although it's true, it has some powers that just feel meh by comparison.
- Taser: This is a prime example of a Devices power I cannot get behind. It's a Mag 2 stun with some Energy damage. That's it. Absolutely nothing else to it. With the exception of slotting it for set bonuses I see no reason to touch it.
- Web Grenade: I admit, after playing a VEAT I'm incredibly spoiled by the ridiculous (by comparison) Wide Area Web Grenade, or even Mace Mastery's Web Envelope, both of which are good AoEs. Whereas Traps and Devices get...just Web Grenade (Though it's amazing for the -Fly)
As far as the sets in general? Traps definitely feels like you get more bang for your buck. FFG is a ridiculously good power (+Def and Mez protection), Acid Mortar is actually a mini-tank (Seriously, check it's HP sometime). Poison Trap is a literal Godsend (Slot it with Lockdown Proc and toe-bomb one, hilarity).
And Caltrops has to be one of the best powers in the game simply because it's effects are essentially unresistable. As for confusing the enemy AI? Honestly, unless you're dropping it on the spawn that the tank is trying to pull, it's a ridiculously good set-up. My DP/Dev Blaster often drops Caltrops at the corner, and uses his attacks to pull enemies or spawns around the corner and into the Trops, where he proceeds to pick them apart while they go berserk trying to get out.
Didn't finish reading but if I was to change time bomb I would rename it smart bomb and if 8 valid targets are in range it would blow up (unless timer ran out then boom anyways).
How about this; when you use it the power button turns into a running toggle. When you click the toggle off the bomb detonates. Change the name to Remote Detonator or some such.
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They could even have it allow you to drop multiples if they want.
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Most of us agree there's a problem, but how would we go about fixing it? Here's come thoughts on /Traps that come to mind.
Triage Beacon - While 2-3 Beacons are pretty good, a solo Beacon isn't all that impressive. I see two ways to improve it. Make it a mobile drone that follows the user around or reduce the recharge time. Also, if possible, greatly ramp-up the +Regen, but make it so it doesn't stack with other Beacons or similar powers (i.e. Tree of Life). |
In case Triage Beacon isnt made mobile, a +damage resistance power could be added to it to help keep you alive (similar to the devouring earth cairns), or have the beacon place the regen buff on any allies entering the area so that the buff stays on them (for a limited amount of time) even after they leave the area.
Cluster Mine - Have this replace Time Bomb. It functions much like a cross between Trip Mines and Caltrops. It covers a very wide area with small bomblets. Each individual bomblet is triggered by enemy contact and does less damage than a trip mine. However with the large number of bomblets the overall DPS would be potentially high.
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An excellent suggestion, Instead of slowing the team down by having them wait while you place each & every bomb, this would be a power you could just toss & keep fighting.
I would definitely take a power like that.
One other thing I would like to see is Gun Drones duration lasting a lot longer than it does right now.
Snipes is atricky one, the idea is that it's essentially a "alpha only" power that can easily remove a single enemy from the fight before it even starts.
The problem is that a lot of attacks can effectively do that, and it's not even THAT strong.
That said it's very useful when soloing, since you can kill that sapper or ink man or whatever before they get a chance to do anything.
What I'd do would be to simply buff the damage significantly, BU+AIM+Snipe should one-shot bosses for blasters and LT's for defenders.
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I've always wondered what Trip Mines would have been like if they were made into Stick Bombs, i.e. something that you throw at the ground, it sticks to it and THEN becomes a Trip Mine. The functionality of the power remains, in the sense that you can set traps with it just as you could previously, and indeed might even be enhanced since you might be able to stick them to walls and ceilings, but it adds an extra functionality as a semi-direct attack. I do recognise that this might make the power overpowered, though.
Then again, I was also convinced that making Assassin's Strike not suck when used out of hide would make it overpowered and that's evidently happening, and I'm sure someone at some point made the argument that Elude would be overpowered if it didn't make you "only affecting self." But like I said, I doubt that would be an easy sell. |
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If every traps power and the mine powers from devices worked like caltrops and gave m a reticle, even with a short range, they'd be miles more useful and lose nothing.
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(This is also why I prefer Devices to Traps for bombing, cloaking device and smoke grenade, between those two you can tap dance on top of anything short of a rikti drone.)
I assume they are using it the way I've always seen it used: stealth in and plant it in a spawn (I've seen it used in other ways, but all of them marginal in frequency).
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The thing is, though, that as others have found, this is still far too slow and far too unreliable, and still pales in comparison with what other Blasters could do by comparison, especially something like Fire/Fire and ESPECIALLY what Blasters can do with a decent Epic. It's barely useful when solo, it's utterly useless when on a team, and it's a pain in the *** to use.
I had to hold my tongue when a friend said he didn't use the rest powers in that game. It is such a joy to win a battle and then know you will quickly be ready for the next fight - and that in a game that is worlds away from this one in the likelihood of having a close call battle as opposed to player domination.
It shows that a game can be harder without relying on slow, do-nothing-for-a-while powers. |
It is for this very reason that I agree with you entirely. I'd go one further, actually, and postulate that you can have a game that's both good and challenging without it having to rely on cheap time sinks and awkward mechanics. Hell, most sets in our game that aren't Traps or Devices already prove that.
My namesake Commander Beet is an Energy/Devices Blaster, I made him back in last 2005/early 2006 (Can't quite remember..). I was a slow leveler, with lots of alts and also roleplaying when possible, so by 2007 when I finally got high enough for Time Bomb I took it.
I used it as much as possible up to 44, at which point I went out of my way to get the final respec and be rid of that awful waste of time and endurance. Even back then, teams were too fast to waste 20 seconds of waiting to do any damage. While leveling up, it was useless, sometimes people would humour me because they hadn't seen Time Bomb before so I got to use it, shortly followed by a 'lol that took ages' and it never being used again as we went through the next group/s faster than the Time Bombed group. Even solo it was useless, Trip Mine did enough damage by itself to not warrant the need for Time Bomb's. |
I soloed most of the way to 50, so I'd gotten a good habit out of using Trip Mine at my own feet in case someone approached me and Time Bomb to toe bomb spawns, Taser and Beanbag and Cryo Freeze Ray to stop meaner foes and so forth. But every time I set foot on a team, I was essentially without a secondary, and every time I stepped off a team, I was back to very, very slow mode. Eventually, I got sick and tired of fighting everything in tiny baby steps, so I rerolled the Steel Rook as the Bots/Traps Mastermind who prompted me to create this thread.
Traps IS better than Devices in almost every way, because while it's just as good at setting up traps (better, actually), it's also not that bad on a team. Sure, Trip Mine rarely gets used and a lot of the gadgets don't get full use out of them, but I can at least USE them in the first place. And, being a Mastermind, I don't have the insult that is Time Bomb. I have Detonator, instead, which is like Time Bomb only it detonates instantly and I can pick where it detonates by move-ordering a henchmen to that location. In essence, Detonator is like Time Bomb, only ten times better. Sure, I waste a henchman but I can always call another one down. Sure, the Assault Bot is an expensive henchman to lose if I want maximum damage out of detonator, but you know what? It's worth it. For the utility of that power, it is so damn worth it!
In case Triage Beacon isnt made mobile, a +damage resistance power could be added to it to help keep you alive (similar to the devouring earth cairns), or have the beacon place the regen buff on any allies entering the area so that the buff stays on them (for a limited amount of time) even after they leave the area.
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Personally, I have a big problem with immobile summons that have continuous effects. If the thing is going to last for 90 seconds and have some kind of profound effect, then it really should follow me around, because if it doesn't, I'll just fight one fight over it and walk past it. Yes, I'm aware that it's good for Elite Boss fights, but you know what? With how broken the AI is, Elite Bosses take off running like idiots and run away from anything you've placed the moment they so much as sniff your Poison Gas Trap, so that Triage Beacon? Useless. Completely. It's only useful if you can fight over it, and when fighting an enemy whose movements you can't control and who regenerates back to full if you don't follow him when he runs, you can't fight over it.
And let's not even bring up the Devouring Earth here. Yes, their eminators are stationary, but they can relocate them an infinite number of times every time you run away from them. If a Guardian drops a Quartz and you hide around a corner so the DE creatures have to run away from it and to you, the Guardian will just run up to you and move the Quartz at your feet. If I could do the same with the Triage Beacon, I could live with it being immobile, but I can't. It's stuck where it is.
This is a big issue for me, the fact that I have to stand directly over everything as a traps/devices character pretty much flies in the face of every single archetype it's based on when it comes to direct combat. If every traps power and the mine powers from devices worked like caltrops and gave m a reticle, even with a short range, they'd be miles more useful and lose nothing. Just that alone would mean I could feasibly throw traps into active situations just by hanging back and not attacking. And being able to throw traps into active situations meant I wouldn't slow down a team as much. Really the biggest issue I have with traps and devices is having to either have stalker-level stealth/invis or solo to get goo use out of them.
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This is the "out of combat" concept I spoke about in the original post. These powers are conceptualised to be used as traps prepared in advance of the fight that you pull enemies over. The sad reality is that pulling enemies has always been, and will always be, slow, cumbersome and inefficient, the tactic people only use as a last resort. To have that as your first resort written into the design of powers just consigns you to playing very slowly, levelling up very slowly and being left behind on teams. And I've seen this first hand. I WAS a Devices Blaster and I'm a Traps Mastermind now.
I don't mind powers that have an out-of-combat application. In fact, I wouldn't dream of changing Trip Mine or Poison Gas Trap in such a way as to hamper people's ability to set up mine fields with them. I suggested a "sticky grenade" redesign for Trip Mine precisely because that way people could still toss down a field of Sticky Grenades just waiting for someone to walk over them and still make a mine field, but people could also toss them at range and into fights in progress. I want the ability to set up minefields, but I want the ability to do more with the powers than just that.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Totally agree with you Samuel, that's the reason why my first char that I created when the game was release (AR/DEV Blaster) still sits at lvl 48.
I do trust into the Devs to fix this some time though, they did the same with "travelling" (green line, yellow line, no train in Founders, no Ouro or other TPs, no access to hazard zones etc.)
Originally Posted by Megajoule
We're being invaded. Again. This time, instead of aliens, zombies, or eyeballs with teeth, it's the marching band.
Originally Posted by Megajoule
We're being invaded. Again. This time, instead of aliens, zombies, or eyeballs with teeth, it's the marching band.
Personally, I have a big problem with immobile summons that have continuous effects. If the thing is going to last for 90 seconds and have some kind of profound effect, then it really should follow me around, because if it doesn't, I'll just fight one fight over it and walk past it. Yes, I'm aware that it's good for Elite Boss fights, but you know what? With how broken the AI is, Elite Bosses take off running like idiots and run away from anything you've placed the moment they so much as sniff your Poison Gas Trap, so that Triage Beacon? Useless. Completely. It's only useful if you can fight over it, and when fighting an enemy whose movements you can't control and who regenerates back to full if you don't follow him when he runs, you can't fight over it.
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I'm off to the ideas forum!
PenanceжTriage
a powerset that has 2 powers that most people do not want is fine. Some people will want them for whatever reason.
much worse are powersets that only use a few powers and 5 or more are unused. Granite armor, dual blades, super strength. If you don't think Traps or Devices are good sets, don't play them. There are tons of powersets. Find ones you like. |
Originally Posted by Megajoule
We're being invaded. Again. This time, instead of aliens, zombies, or eyeballs with teeth, it's the marching band.
If only the devs thought to give players access to some sort of slow or immobilize in the Traps power set! Some sort of... web-like... grenade-ish... thing... with which they could simultaneously apply slow, -jump, and immobilize to a target with a single power. And of course, this theoretical power would need such a duration that could easily stack to overcome the level of immobilize protection found on most EBs and AVs... yes, such a power would be very useful, indeed.
I'm off to the ideas forum! |
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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A long time ago in a forum far far away I suggested that trip mines be location powers like caltrops, and separate from being tripped they could also be detonated by the blaster that cast them and *only* the blaster that cast them by shooting at them. At the time, the mechanics to allow that didn't exist. Today, I think they kind of sort of do.
The very specific parameters of the suggestion were that it added a new way to use the mines without damaging the existing way of using them for players used to using them the old way. Anyone using Trip Mines in the current normal fashion would be able to use these almost exactly the same, but they could also be used in other ways for other purposes. |
Time Bomb on the other hand ranks as my tenth or eleventh favorite power in the set. And in keeping with that ranking i generally never take it. However, with the way vanity pet toggles now work i'd think it would be easy to change it to a Remote Detonator power. Give it the same sort of toggle as the pets and the current 15 second lifespan and have it explode when it dies. i would still reduce the interrupt, but even with it still there i'd be far more likely to take Time Bomb if i could set it off at any time in the 15 second window it's active.
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How ARE people currently using Time Bomb?
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