Biggest Incarnate Content Issue
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-12-20 18:56 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I don't. Do this and completely kill whatever lingering interest I have in running this content - not that I have much left anyways, since I detest Keyes and am not interested in either TPN or MoM. | Julius: There was a proposal on Beta server to lessen the rewards of BAF and LAM at some point in a character's career and force them to move up the Incarnate content food chain so that they could properly progress. Oh how I wish this had happened. |
These newer trials are not enjoyable. They're really not, and judging from the numbers I see running BAF/LAM, seems like I'm not alone.
I am waiting to see the Dark Astoria content. I have a feeling its going to be solo me against +4 [or higher!] AVs on the lowest setting. At that point I will abandon the idea of Incarnates entirely.
Moral of the story: If I'm suffering, I have to get paid. I don't do it for fun, and I don't PAY to do it. The developers seem to have this idea everyone loves debt-farming. Do they [players] really love it? Sure are a lot of BAFs/LAMs going on for that theory to hold water.
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The 800lb gorilla has made most of the current reputation based enchants bind on account/realm, grind out the rep once and you don't *need* to do them again on your alts (on that realm). If the gorilla has figured out that enough people don't like to run the same small set of grinds over and over on different characters for "required" enhancements, that's saying something since that monkey loves grinds.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
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They are not finding the trials fun and if you have to run it 30 times PER character - ... |
Alpha was good, you got to pick how you got it done and at what rate and people didn't really care if you just opened the slot or were plussed up to MAX_INT. It was like the rest of the game, there wasn't one path to 50.
Enter the next batch. You have iTrials. Period. Full Stop. Not a plus infinity? Not getting an invite. Don't bother using the queue. There are no roses so don't bother to stop to smell any, you're just wasting our time.
DA is my B5 (last, best hope) of the entire Incarnate system beyond Alpha and it's been made crystal clear DA cannot be comparable to the iTrials (since the iTrials are so much fun that people *want* to run them and would never abandon them in droves if given any other alternative...).
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Ogi - dead on - the Dark Astoria make over will make the trials dry up and blow away.
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Originally Posted by Ogi
The 800lb gorilla has made most of the current reputation based enchants bind on account/realm, grind out the rep once and you don't *need* to do them again on your alts (on that realm). If the gorilla has figured out that enough people don't like to run the same small set of grinds over and over on different characters for "required" enhancements, that's saying something since that monkey loves grinds.
Alpha was good, you got to pick how you got it done and at what rate and people didn't really care if you just opened the slot or were plussed up to MAX_INT. It was like the rest of the game, there wasn't one path to 50. Enter the next batch. You have iTrials. Period. Full Stop. Not a plus infinity? Not getting an invite. Don't bother using the queue. There are no roses so don't bother to stop to smell any, you're just wasting our time. DA is my B5 (last, best hope) of the entire Incarnate system beyond Alpha and it's been made crystal clear DA cannot be comparable to the iTrials (since the iTrials are so much fun that people *want* to run them and would never abandon them in droves if given any other alternative...). |
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As much as I loathe the iTrials (bordering on couldn't loathe more), the iTrials are the Dev's Precious (per GG), if DA threatened them (personal opinion is they will, with a vengeance) and the iTrial reward rate is already at the highest the devs will tolerate (they already wanted to nerf the old iTrials' rewards to push people to the new shinies) it will be DA that gets the hammer and will probably become a Faultline-esque zone that rewards meager incarnate rewards instead of regular merits, to be played through once for the story and then never again.|
Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Ogi - dead on - the Dark Astoria make over will make the trials dry up and blow away.
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All DA has to do to threaten the iTrials is pull enough away to drop any particular iTrial below its critical mass for pugs runs. There will always be die hard fans of any given trial that will always run that trial but if there's only enough of them to pre-form leagues for themselves Joe Schmoe off the street won't be likely to get into one.
For me, I think it'll be a fine line between making DA unpalatable to the raiders while still rewarding enough Incarnate-wise to bother with progressing the Incarnate slots (and thus having any interest in the entire Incarnate system).
edit: I also find it depressing that the terminology for the 800lb gorilla is now applicable to this game. Raiders, tiers, gearscore, casuals. I'm pretty sure outright calling people scrubs will be happening sooner than later.
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No, it won't. Personally, I much prefer large team and multi-team content to solo and small team content, and most of the Incarnate trials are fun. I see myself running the new Dark Astoria content once for badges then going right on back to the Incarnate trials. I know I'm not the only one.
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Ogi - dead on - the Dark Astoria make over will make the trials dry up and blow away.
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@Celestial Lord and @Celestial Lord Too
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I don't think anyone is trying to say that "no one" likes the UG, TPN, and MOM. The facts say they are not as popular as the trials the majority of people like to run and there are many different reasons for the lack of popularity.|
Originally Posted by Celestial_Lord
There's a lot of assumption in this thread. "No one likes Underground, TPN, and MoM.
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I respect that there are people that enjoy the gimmick filled new trials, but the fact remains that the majority of the wider player base does not.YMMV.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Yes, and there was such an outcry that the developers backtracked on it. You may have missed it, and seeing that some people might not be able to see the reasoning, I'm going to quote it here.|
Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
I wonder if anyone has considered just altering the incarnate salvage system so that the low rank missions give only common and uncommon, and the mid ranks up can give rares and VR. Or something along those lines...
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Update 10/24/2011 - Incarnate Rewards Changes:
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Originally Posted by Positron
Hey everyone,
I want you all to be aware that the development team has really taken a look at the latest change to the Incarnate System, the removal of Empyrean Merits as a reward for completing BAF or Lambda the first time that day, if youve unlocked your Lore or Destiny slots. We appreciate the feedback you have given us in this beta test and the fact that you all are so passionate about the Incarnate System as a whole. I understand that many of you are upset by this and I agree that we were probably too heavy handed in trying to encourage players to try out the new content and storylines that we created. To that end: this change will not be going live with Issue 21 Special Update: Media Blitz. Have no fear, your Empyreans for completing those trials will not be touched. Now to give you some perspective on why such a change was proposed in the first place, we simply were not seeing enough people completing the newer developed content for the system. Players seemed to be content in running BAFs and Lambdas to the exclusion of everything else. Our metrics dont tell us why this is the case, but you the players have spoken about it. The first two trials are more fun and take a shorter time to complete than Keyes or Underground. Even by increasing the number of Emp Merits the longer Trials give, it still did not spur the playerbase as a whole into running that content. We definitely can and will make these trials easier, faster, and/or reward better (and the changes to Keyes is a direct result of feedback from players), however we remain concerned that the mindset has already set in: run BAF, run Lambda, ignore everything else. This left us with very few options, one of which was to add a NEW currency that is superior to the Emp Merits, and put that on the newer Trials. The other option was to remove the top tier currency from the older trials. Adding a new currency was in the original design for the Incarnate Trials, but many voices over the past several months have complained that we have too many currencies to begin with and we tend to agree, so we shifted gears and in the end we explored the latter option. With every change we know we wont have complete acceptance; someone (or several someones) will be upset about it. This is par for the course, but even though there were people who understood what we were trying to do, several good points were made in the feedback thread which warrants our decision in not pushing this change out to Live. What can we do to ensure that players are encouraged to play through Keyes and Underground, as well as anything else going forward? Especially if you can get the stuff you are looking for out of running the older, and therefore easier, content? Well definitely be making some further passes on the difficulties and rewards of the later Incarnate Trials, but this might not be enough. As we move into the future, if we dont see the needle move upwards on experienced Incarnates completing Keyes, Underground, TPN, and MoM to numbers comparable to BAF and Lambda then we will have to start looking at other options for the trials that come after that. Will it be a new currency? Id love for it NOT to come to that, but youve made it clear that you want to keep getting all the old currency out of the older content. Im pretty excited about the new Incarnate Trials coming with future issues. With your help and feedback we hope that we can make these exciting, epic, and fit within your playstyles while still presenting you a challenge. As much as you players love to play them, I know the designers love to design them. Its one of the more enjoyable parts of our jobs, designing these Incarnate Trials to see just what our players are made of. What is too hard? What only appears to be too hard on the surface? I hope that the lessons weve all learned from this can help us create some awesome content. |
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Originally Posted by Celestial_Lord
There's a lot of assumption in this thread. "No one likes Underground, TPN, and MoM." Um, speak for yourself. Underground is my favorite Trial. TPN isn't far behind. In fact, the only trials I don't like are Lambda and Keyes.
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Originally Posted by Celestial_Lord
The main two problems with these trials are 1. weak leadership, and 2. people trying to bring unlevelshifted level 50s, or level 50s that are only levelshifted +1, to them. These are not trials that are meant for them. Either one is enough to sink the trial.
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Originally Posted by Celestial_Lord
Whether anyone likes it or not, City of Heroes became an endgame raiding game in Issue 20. Like any other MMOG with endgame raiding, they have tiers.
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Originally Posted by Celestial_Lord
No, it won't. Personally, I much prefer large team and multi-team content to solo and small team content, and most of the Incarnate trials are fun. I see myself running the new Dark Astoria content once for badges then going right on back to the Incarnate trials. I know I'm not the only one.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
It is interesting to me how different trials are hated by different people. Some folks hate Keyes but tolerate Lambda. I kinda hate Lambda and don't mind Keyes. Mostly it comes down to the acids and grenades and how much the sabotage phase relies on people (a) knowing where the chambers/crates are, and (b) attacking said chambers/crates in enough numbers to avoid continuous trips to the hospital, and then how despite having all 10 acids and all 10 grenades, we still can't manage to blow all ten reinforcement doors or keep Marauder pacified in the final fight. There is clearly so vast a disconnect between the sabotage phase and the final fight (where the temps acquired actually get used) that I dread the prospect of going on a Lamda run every time it comes up. Keyes, on the other hand, is a cakewalk in comparison, at least in my experience on Virtue.
It feels like we're going around and around on this subject, trying to figure out who is dropping the ball: the devs, league leaders, or inept newbies. Clearly it is a combination of all three, but not in equal proportions IMO. I think inept newbies are the least of the problems and the easiest to solve. But the solution requires a strong, well-populated leader community willing and able to teach the newbies properly and with patience. Not always an easy thing to do for trials with intense time pressures. The devs could help us a lot by designing these trials so that they are easily learnable, reducing the need for heavy doses of instruction from leaders and vets.
Ultimately I think we all need to do our part, newbies, veterans, and devs alike.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
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No offense, but that's Triumph, one of the lowest populated North American servers. There's a reason why I move all of my level 50 toons I no longer care to play there.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
There isn't enough interest to get many Undergrounds, TPN, and MoMs going on Triumph.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
One of the reasons I've stuck with this game was because it WAS NOT like any other MMOG with gearquest raiding.
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@Celestial Lord and @Celestial Lord Too
The journey to the raiderside sure didn't take long for the community.
CoH has become more gorilla like and the gorilla is moving in CoH's general direction (LFD, LFR, BoA).
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From its inception, I have wondered why the TuT was not a cross-server mechanic.
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Your thoughts about smaller servers are spot on and should really be addressed by a comprehensive cross server Team Up Teleporter I personally would much rather log in and have access to the entire CoH population than be relegated to Freedom, which already has a large population.
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Q. Just wondering Posi, where are the new dance emotes we were told would come with GR?
A. Positron: Whoops, my bad.
1387 badges, and counting
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Iäm pretty sure that they want it to be a cross serve thing - but like the City Vault, cross server stuff might not be as easy to put in the game as it sounds |
Originally Posted by Spatch
From its inception, I have wondered why the TuT was not a cross-server mechanic.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I can't stand solo'ing. Doing my "daily" tip missions is the most unfun content I do in coh, and I doubt the DA content will be much different from that. I will still prefer to do Trials over soloing through incarnate progression, but having DA as an option will be nice to do occasionally.
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
Ogi - dead on - the Dark Astoria make over will make the trials dry up and blow away.
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QFT, This.
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Originally Posted by Celestial_Lord
No offense, but that's Triumph, one of the lowest populated North American servers. There's a reason why I move all of my level 50 toons I no longer care to play there.
That's nice, but like I said earlier, like it or not, that's what CoH has become. You can either choose to deal with it, or ignore the endgame raiding content. You still have plenty of things to do from levels one through 50. |
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I find it ironic actually. Unless these small team and solo missions have some very unique mechanics to them, a term for what others have lampooned as "gimmicks." then this content is going to be far too similar to the mundane door fest from 1 to 50. Ohhhh, that sounds unique!! |
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
I can't stand solo'ing. Doing my "daily" tip missions is the most unfun content I do in coh, and I doubt the DA content will be much different from that. I will still prefer to do Trials over soloing through incarnate progression, but having DA as an option will be nice to do occasionally.
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PS-- I hope there are new game mechanics up the wazoo, a veritable "gimmick" fest. Anything but defeats, clickies, hostages, lead allies, etc.
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If there are too many "gimmicks", then it might be hard for some ATs and builds to solo the content - it's fine for the devs to throw just about anything at us on the Trials, because leagues can work together to win - but throwing the same kind of challenges at players in content that is designed to be able to be completed solo would kinda defeat the point of having solo content.|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
I find it ironic actually. Unless these small team and solo missions have some very unique mechanics to them, a term for what others have lampooned as "gimmicks." then this content is going to be far too similar to the mundane door fest from 1 to 50. Ohhhh, that sounds unique!!
PS-- I hope there are new game mechanics up the wazoo, a veritable "gimmick" fest. Anything but defeats, clickies, hostages, lead allies, etc. |
The more basic the challenges in DA are, the more players will be able to solo it.
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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That's nice... And that means players that don't want the endgame raiding crap from other games have one less reason to stay subscribed. Oh wait... The Incarnate System was meant to keep subscribers enticed to continue their subscription. I believe there is a word for that:|
Originally Posted by Celestial_Lord
That's nice, but like I said earlier, like it or not, that's what CoH has become. You can either choose to deal with it, or ignore the endgame raiding content. You still have plenty of things to do from levels one through 50.
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Fail.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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It's kept me subscribed.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
That's nice... And that means players that don't want the endgame raiding crap from other games have one less reason to stay subscribed. Oh wait... The Incarnate System was meant to keep subscribers enticed to continue their subscription. I believe there is a word for that:
Fail. |
@Demobot
Also on Steam
I must be playing a different game than you people, I don't see any of this gnashing of teeth on Pinnacle. BAFs and Lambdas certainly get run the most frequently, but since the last patch TPNs and Keyes get run pretty often too, with MoM trailing shortly behind. (Nobody likes UG. Appropriate acronym for it, I'd say.) I also don't see people getting rejected from trials because they're not level-shifted, or because they're missing Gear X. There are enough experienced level-shifted folks to pick up the slack for the newbies and/or newly-minted 50s.
Y'all are too stressed out about a game.
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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No one is forcing you to do trials, the same 1-50 experience is still there.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
That's nice... And that means players that don't want the endgame raiding crap from other games have one less reason to stay subscribed. Oh wait... The Incarnate System was meant to keep subscribers enticed to continue their subscription. I believe there is a word for that:
Fail. |
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
No one is forcing you to do trials, the same 1-50 experience is still there.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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The answer is not rocket science. Its really not. | Positron: As we move into the future, if we dont see the needle move upwards on experienced Incarnates completing Keyes, Underground, TPN, and MoM to numbers comparable to BAF and Lambda then we will have to start looking at other options for the trials that come after that. Will it be a new currency? Id love for it NOT to come to that, but youve made it clear that you want to keep getting all the old currency out of the older content. |
*Problem: People prefer to run BAF and Lam.
*Problem: We want players running our newer content.
Solution: Make the new content...... wait for it..... MAKE THE NEW STUFF LIKE BAF AND LAM! Problem solved! Genius!
If players do not find content fun to do, it will not get run. You can try the carrot and stick, you can beg plead nerf and yell: it still won't get done, because many of us want to spend our limited gaming time HAVING FUN, not debt farming. We're annoying like that.
Use the stick spproach, get out the nerf-gun and see your shiny new content go the way of the Mission Architect, which so far stands as the greatest waste of developmental resources we have seen yet.
If the developers want to add incarnate content to that list of wasted resources via nerf or overuse of carrot-and-stick techniques, the ones they hurt will be themselves. The time and money wasted will be thier own.
Just cast a glance over the nearest empty MA building, next time you fly past.
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Who says you need to solo the DA content.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
I can't stand solo'ing. Doing my "daily" tip missions is the most unfun content I do in coh, and I doubt the DA content will be much different from that. I will still prefer to do Trials over soloing through incarnate progression, but having DA as an option will be nice to do occasionally.
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You know there used to be this thing called duos, trios, and 4-8 man teams long ago when COH didn't add 16-24 man leagues
It's not either mega leagues or soloing.
There is this little thing called uhhhh, teams. GASP!
Mythical I know.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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COH Freedom kept me subscribed in-spite of the Incarnate System.|
Originally Posted by Demobot
It's kept me subscribed.
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If there were not new abilities for my 50s linked to the trials, I never would have touched them with a ten foot pole.
For history's sake, I was one of the people who was 100% fine with them releasing the alpha slot without any major content ready to go.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
The fixes for the level shift is easy to do, have the leaders +shift apply to every player the same as it does in normal content. So yes level shift Super Side Kick.
Why do people not listen to instructions in trials? Some players play with the chat window closed, yes they really do.
Here is the other part - if the content isn't fun people won't play it. They are not finding the trials fun and if you have to run it 30 times PER character - you will take a small bite out of the turd sandwich that is BAF or LAM instead of a 4 course meal of turds.
Farms in the AE and almost all farmable missions people use are short and sweet - some 5 minutes or less. So a 10-15 minute Baf/Lam is ideal.