Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
![]() There is NO HARD GATING in levels 1-50. Why? SSK.
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Biggest Incarnate Content Issue
I don't think anything that I have posted in this thread is about creating an UBER-leet divide.
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There was a proposal on Beta server to lessen the rewards of BAF and LAM at some point in a character's career and force them to move up the Incarnate content food chain so that they could properly progress. Oh how I wish this had happened.
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My only expectation is that trials should function better than they currently are. Team content 1-50 was hard gated behind level requirements for Task Forces and Trials. So is each tier of content 1-50 only meant for the uber-leet? If so then I guess my expectations have ben shaped by, oh I don't know, the entire darn game then.
Proper gating whether hard or soft is required for there to be a proper difficulty progression in these trials. |
- Tier 1 Incarnate: BAF/Lambda
- Tier 2 Incarnate: Keyes
- Tier 3 Incarnate: Underground
- Tier 4 Incarnate: TPN/MoM
- APEX/Tin Mage with a player incarnate range of 50 to 50+1, while fighting level 54s = Synapse TF, with characters required to be level 15 or 15+1 while fighting level 21s.
- BAF with a player incarnate range of 50 to 50+3, while fighting level 54s = Synapse TF, with a character range of 15 to 20 while fighting level 21s.
- Lambda with a player incarnate range of 50 to 50+3, while fighting level 54s = Synapse TF, with a character range of 15 to 20 while fighting level 21s.
- Keyes with a player incarnate range of 50 to 50+3, while fighting level 54s = Synapse TF, with a character range of 15 to 20 while fighting level 21s.
- Underground with a player incarnate range of 50 to 50+3, while fighting level 54s = Synapse TF, with a character range of 15 to 20 while fighting level 21 critters, and level 22 AVs.
- TPN/MoM with a player incarnate range of 50 to 50+3, while fighting level 54s = Synapse TF, with a character range of 15 to 20 while fighting level 21 critters, and level 23 AVs.
- APEX/Tin Mage should be filled with level 52s (at most).
- BAF & Lambda, and Keyes should have level 53s and have a minimal level shift of +1 requirement.
- Underground should have level 54s and have a minimum of 2 level shifts.
- TPN and MoM should have limited to level 54+1 AVs and require a minimum of 3 level shifts.
That's splitting hairs. Do you know how much the purple patch penalizes a player against anything greater than +4? Against a+5 or +6 enemy, anything except for a buff class might as well not even be there.
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Edit:
Or are you trying to say that:
BAF/Lambda = Positron part 1 & 2
Keyes = Synapse
Underground = Sister Psyche
TPN/Mom = Citadel
If so, then we should be getting a level shift for each trial we complete.
BAF/Lambda with a level shift in Judgement/Interface.
Keyes with a level shift in a Lore.
Underground with a level shift in Destiny.
TPN with a level shift in Hybrid.
MoM with a level shift in Genesis.
![](http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g151/vg-mmorpg/ForumAvatars/snowglobesig.png)
![](http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g151/vg-mmorpg/ForumAvatars/SnowGlobe_sigprotest_zps7dee0180.png)
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Isn't hard gating the inability of a level 1 to join a level 10-14 TF, or a level 15-19 TF, or a level 50 RSF?
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So it's really NOT comparable to the Incarnate system. The only gate for that system is are you 50? yes, you can run the trials. No? Come back when you are 50.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
That would have been so much worse.
There was a proposal on Beta server to lessen the rewards of BAF and LAM at some point in a character's career and force them to move up the Incarnate content food chain so that they could properly progress. Oh how I wish this had happened. The more difficult trials NEED characters that have developed to a certain point of power in the incarnate system to properly contribute, but there is a chasm between the current state of Incarnate content and where it needs to be for a healthy end game. What should be a linear progression towards more difficult trials with the option to return to older content has become an incessant grind fest of the easiest content at the detriment of gaming experience and long term VIP retention.
Is there any way to fix this? |
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
There is currently very little reason for people veer from spamming BAF and Lambda should their primary goal be to gain Incarnate powers. Once you have trivialized older content by gaining levels, it should not grant the same rewards/time that it did when you first attempted it; that's a fundamental law in any RPG/MMORPG/video game. Notice that I said it should not grant the same rewards, not that it should grant no rewards what so ever.
If I'm reading you right you are saying:
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- Tier 1 Incarnate: BAF/Lambda/Nerfed Keyes
- Tier 2 Incarnate: Original Keyes/Underground
- Tier 3 Incarnate: TPN/MoM
You seem to be very sensitive to any issue that involves tiers or haves and have-nots. I am not sure how what I wrote is elitism. I was merely using that phrase to prove a point. I certainly don't think that what the developers proposed was the best solution, nor do I hope that it is immediately implemented.
There is currently very little reason for people veer from spamming BAF and Lambda should their primary goal be to gain Incarnate powers. Once you have trivialized older content by gaining levels, it should not grant the same rewards/time that it did when you first attempted it; that's a fundamental law in any RPG/MMORPG/video game. Notice that I said it should not grant the same rewards, not that it should grant no rewards what so ever. It's not just about level shifts-- it's also about the powers themselves and how they can contribute. I would list the current situation as:
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Also, what if you are already tier 3 and are on a server that isn't doing the tier 3 stuff regularly. Are you **** out of luck for doing anything Incarnate related that night?
Luckily the Incarnate level zone will be out soon and there will be more variety that has nothing to do with trials so I answered my own question.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
You seem to be very sensitive to any issue that involves tiers or haves and have-nots. I am not sure how what I wrote is elitism. I was merely using that phrase to prove a point. I certainly don't think that what the developers proposed was the best solution, nor do I hope that it is immediately implemented.
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There is currently very little reason for people veer from spamming BAF and Lambda should their primary goal be to gain Incarnate powers. Once you have trivialized older content by gaining levels, it should not grant the same rewards/time that it did when you first attempted it; that's a fundamental law in any RPG/MMORPG/video game. Notice that I said it should not grant the same rewards, not that it should grant no rewards what so ever.
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It's not just about level shifts-- it's also about the powers themselves and how they can contribute. I would list the current situation as:
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- Tier 1 Incarnate: BAF/Lambda/Nerfed Keyes/Original Keyes/Underground/TPN/MoM
- Tier 1 difficulty: ITF/Khan/STF/RSF/Hami Raid
- Tier 2 difficulty: APEX/Tin Mage/CoP/Cuda
- Tier 3 difficulty: There is no tier 3 difficulty
- Tier 4 difficulty: BAF/Lambda
- Tier 5 difficulty: New Keyes
- Tier 6 difficulty: Old Keyes
- Tier 7 difficulty: Underground
- Tier 8 difficulty: TPN/MoM
I've done BAFs, Lambdas, and the original Keyes with teams with only the common and uncommon tiers of the Alpha slot. With above average players, they were not only possible but somewhat reasonable to do without level shifts or later powers (Keyes benefiting from later power though). Underground/TPN/MoM, forget it. With the average player on the live servers? I wouldn't want to do any of them without most of the team being level shifted. Even then, I'm growing increasingly apathetic about doing ANY trials because a lot of players can't seem to do the basic tasks of the older trials.
Basically, my tolerance (and my fun) of a trial goes down with the increased number of ways a trial can fail due to player ineptness. The later trials introduce more ways for that to ruin my enjoyment.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Basically, my tolerance (and my fun) of a trial goes down with the increased number of ways a trial can fail due to player ineptness. The later trials introduce more ways for that to ruin my enjoyment.
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There will always be a small group of motivated, tenacious individuals willing and eager to be the first to work out solutions for new trials, and they will always be vastly outnumbered by those who want to contribute to a win, but don't have the time or desire to be one of the pioneers. Those masses of players, such as they are, are reliant on the trail blazers to teach them the ropes of each new trial. If, after a new trial has been out for a couple of weeks, new players are still contributing less than they could due to lack of understanding, who is to blame except the veterans who have neither the skills or inclination to instruct?
Ultimately I think the blame is shared between the experienced players who don't make much, if any, effort to explain what to do (and, more importantly, why) to the beginners (hell, they rarely even bother to find out who is a beginner before each trial), and the devs who have put players in this position in the first place. Unless there is a very strong reason to expect future trials to be radically different in design and approach, I feel the only course left to those of us who still want to experience the Incarnate system is to roll up our sleeves and do a better job of tutoring newbies (and there is almost always at least one, as demonstrated by the fact that the opening cut scenes in BAF and Keyes rarely go unplayed, at least in my experience).
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
Just to recap what I think some of the best suggestions have been:
1- Move the level shifts to Judgement/Interface tier 1. (Oedipus Tex)
- I would personally suggest combining this with a more linear progression: grant +1 level shift at tier 1 Alpha; grant +1 level shift at tier 2 Judgement or Interface; grant +1 level shift at tier 3 Lore or Destiny. This is a much more linear progression, and achieving a +2 level shift requires a bit of effort but comes in short order.
2- Allow players to see all level shifts, not just Alpha, when forming a League (Mokalus)
- This can be used badly, "We want OLNY level 53s." Or it can be used well, "We have three level 50s, two level 51s, five level 52s and four level 53s, so lets try to concentrate on recruiting 52s and 53s." It gets better with the next suggestion...
3- Allow players to employ the old Lackey and Sidekick system, where a level 50 could have their combat level shifted to level (N)-1 when paired with a more experienced character. A level shifted 53 character paired with another level 50 character would increase their combat level by +2.
- This would allow league and team leaders to increase the combat level of lower tiered players and increase the odds of a successful trial. No one gets excluded, and it allowes veterans and new players to mingle on even the hardest trial.
4- Improve the Team Up Teleporter
- I think this has to happen no matter what...
I've done BAFs, Lambdas, and the original Keyes with teams with only the common and uncommon tiers of the Alpha slot. With above average players, they were not only possible but somewhat reasonable to do without level shifts or later powers (Keyes benefiting from later power though). Underground/TPN/MoM, forget it. With the average player on the live servers? I wouldn't want to do any of them without most of the team being level shifted. Even then, I'm growing increasingly apathetic about doing ANY trials because a lot of players can't seem to do the basic tasks of the older trials.
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I don't find the TPN and Keyes fun.
TPN may benefit if the doors to the media buildings were clearly noted so we know where to go. It is far too often just disorganized chaos. Also the thought of being 'stoned' to death by a civilian (regardless of debuff) is silly. Also, the story behind the TPN is fine but it isn't something that should be a trial. It is more TF quality in it's importance. Should we really be getting our incarnate powers off this sort of mission??? Not very 'epic' at all.
Keyes is just running all over and a poor mechanic. I don't think it is very fun at all. On Virtue they happen from time to time and it seems mostly due to increased rewards.
I like the BAF and Lambda. You know the task. It is easy for new trial types and vets of the trials to quickly grasp the idea. It translates well to the video game realm and more often than not you will succeed.
MoM trial is OK but, again, a wonky mechanic with the psychic dots and later stopping the AV from getting to the middle of the room. Kinda un-fun.
The Underground is OK but it is tough. Chances of failure are too high. It takes a while to form trials especially when they're over 12 players. Underground may have worked better as a 12 toon trial.
So, yeah, I admit I have opted for the BAF and Lambda more often because you can contribute, it isn't overly chaotic and these two are kinda fun. The rest? Not as fun. TPN and Keyes? I avoid them.
so basically what you are saying is that all trials and TF's should just involve standing still either at range or in melee and all just beat down on an AV?
Thats sounds really exciting - unfortunately i think most people would prefer a bit more of a challenge - and HAVE to actually watch their screens and react rather than just hide in the mass of heals and buffs and go afk for 5 mins! |
I don't play platformer games, and the video games I play, are almost always on the easiest level or maybe one level up. "hey spot the circle and stay out of it" is completely unfun to me. "Watch for a message saying you're under some effect, and if so, run away or bad things happen" is also unfun to me. The Underground trial has a bit of it, but enough "hey come whale on the big bad with others" to make it, on the whole, fun. The one time I did Keyes, hated it all, will never do another one even if the rewards were increased to "complete it and you'll unlock all your incarnate slots in one go". If the rewards on the others are so low that nobody will do them or the rewards for the new solo/small group is so low it's meaningless, I probably won't do that, there are always other games to look at.
Now, all of that is true for me. From talks I've had with others, it's true for some others, and completely untrue for others. Keep doing some hard challenge trials, provide fun for those who love that sort of a challenge. But please don't try to force those who don't find it fun to do it, either because there are no alternatives or the alternatives have so little rewards it's not worth doing once you've got the badge.
My arcs are constantly shifting, just search for GadgetDon for the latest.
The world beware! I've started a blog
GadgetMania Under Attack: The Digg Lockout
Isn't most of this ineptness simply due to a lack of knowledge/understanding of what to do, and why, in a given trial?
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I explain trial mechanics, before, during, and after trials to help players get up to speed with them. Yet still they fail because people don't want to listen. I'm willing to take my own play time and explain game mechanics to players. Are you?
The other night, I was doing a DFB, during which it was explained before we got to the Vahz boss, that no one but me (I wasn't the leader) was to pass the leader, and under no circumstances AoEs were to be used. There was a blaster that disobeyed both directives. Figuring the player was new, they were invited to a second run, with the additional directive that anyone disobeying the leader's orders would be the subject of a vote-kick. Same blaster did it again. So the vote-kick took place. It took the game a few minutes to kick them, but the player (in local despite having 4 paragon rewards tokens), asked "why?" they were then told that they didn't listen.
The DFB only failed a badge, but it had the exact same problems the Lambda did: even though everything was explained to them, a player said to the other people in the group that they could <pancake> themselves and would do whatever they wanted.
Newcomers to the trials can't really be faulted for not knowing what sequestering is or how to deal with it properly.
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I nearly always ask if someone hasn't done a trial before. I hardly ever get a response.
Same for any other trial gimmick you care to name. Sure, the first layer of blame can be laid at the feet of the devs for constructing trials like this in the first place. But beyond that, I think it is incumbent upon the player community itself to teach/inform each wave of new players so that they aren't stuck in a position of unwittingly jeopardizing every trial they participate in.
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This much I am aware of....Snow knows his stuff. Whenever he is on an Itrial that fails, he stays and goes over what to do for the next run so people will know. The same can be said for badge runs of those trials.
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So, Wing_Leader, you can take your accusation that veterans aren't helping to show new players the ropes and find a better place to lay the blame.
If, after a new trial has been out for a couple of weeks, new players are still contributing less than they could due to lack of understanding, who is to blame except the veterans who have neither the skills or inclination to instruct?
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the devs who have put players in this position in the first place.
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Unless there is a very strong reason to expect future trials to be radically different in design and approach, I feel the only course left to those of us who still want to experience the Incarnate system is to roll up our sleeves and do a better job of tutoring newbies (and there is almost always at least one, as demonstrated by the fact that the opening cut scenes in BAF and Keyes rarely go unplayed, at least in my experience).
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
often when a MOM, Underground, or TPN gets organized there is a glut of level 50 characters that join aboard to either experience something new, or to leech the increased rewards from higher tier trials, and both motivations invariably cause a disproportionate amount of these trials to fail. This happens despite requests for characters to be level shifted to +2 minimum.
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How about, don't worry about that, and make sure you have a good leader who's not a twit, instead? One that can make sure everyone knows what's going on and is on the same page? if there's someone leeching badly enough to hose the entire trial, one star, kick, don't invite to the next trial.
No need to get picky over how many level shifts. Or for that matter, powersets, or which iPowers you have, or whatever else.
I've had raid leaders that were so bad, giving contradictory instructions, not answering, etc. that they've managed to micromanage a BAF into failure - or someone else has taken over giving instructions with everyone ignoring the "leader." And other leaders that insisted they were right when seasoned "raid vets" told them something didn't work some way they were insisting it did... which led to people quitting mid trial.
A good leader that can keep everyone together and direct the whole thing (without being a micromanaging little fuhrer) is far, *far* more important than any level shifts.
100% agree with Aura_Familia:
I don't agree. I think anyone should be able to do whatever content at any time. That's what has defined COH all this time. Sticking to the traditional RAID treadmill is a terrible idea. |
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
As I stated you are forced to react already with the BAF and the bosses coming at you from various directions. If the league does not move and react to them it can and has lead to cascade fail as it should.
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In terms of what I would do, I would use my data mined information on the TF's that have been there for years and see what people liked about the ones that the majority of people ran the most. I would remove the level shifted AV's from the new trials as it serves as nothing more than a catalyst for fragmentation of the player base. |
The devs could stand to do what other companies have when faced with what I see as a slight disconnect with the larger player base and use brief specific focus surveys. They spend a tremendous amount on the BETA server and also do e-mails. I think a brief e-mail survey or even a focus group could really help the devs reconnect with the wider player base outside of the forums. Failing to do this will lead to further disconnect and further player base fragmentation and none of us want that. |
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
I agree on points 2 and 4.
Point 1, no way. T3 on alpha, Destiny and lore is fine.
Point 3, no because of how much leagues have people who drop out and how often team orders scramble. Way too many things to break. Even so, it doesn't fix it when some player who is 50 suddenly gets the league star and doesn't shift things to a 53.
If the devs want players to play trials, they have to cut down on time and gimmicks.
Just to recap what I think some of the best suggestions have been:
1- Move the level shifts to Judgement/Interface tier 1. (Oedipus Tex)
2- Allow players to see all level shifts, not just Alpha, when forming a League (Mokalus)
3- Allow players to employ the old Lackey and Sidekick system, where a level 50 could have their combat level shifted to level (N)-1 when paired with a more experienced character. A level shifted 53 character paired with another level 50 character would increase their combat level by +2.
4- Improve the Team Up Teleporter
Nothing I have said denies people the option to run whatever they want whenever fits best. But if you are level 42 and you want the best XP possible, you are going to run a defeat all ITF, not a Katie Hannon TF. What we have right now is the inverse of that, where the best rewards/time are lumped into the lowest tier Incarnate trials which are getting repeatedly spammed. |
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
No. Last night, despite 20/20 Lambda sabotage objectives being accomplished, 5 doors weren't shut, despite many players asking players to look at their temp power lists for the acids. A basic play mechanic (looking through temp powers) shouldn't be the cause of a Lambda failure last night, 9 months after the trial has been introduced.
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I explain trial mechanics, before, during, and after trials to help players get up to speed with them. Yet still they fail because people don't want to listen. I'm willing to take my own play time and explain game mechanics to players. Are you?
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I rarely get any sort of indication that what I am explaining is being read, much less understood, but it is all I can do to help matters without taking charge as a league leader. I suspect that if I did so, I would lose most veteran players who wouldn't have the patience to sit through a pre-trial briefing every time, just for the benefit of the newbies.
I see a response about half the time. But I understand your position. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. I get that. But does that mean we should just stop trying to lead them to water anymore?
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
Isn't most of this ineptness simply due to a lack of knowledge/understanding of what to do, and why, in a given trial?
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With paragon wiki and forum search fu, a player should be able to at least read before and have some idea as to what will happen before going on the trial. Also, the player should at least inform the leader they have never run on a particular trial before. Most good trial leaders have macros for each phase of the trial. Even if a player has never been on a trial before, they should be watching what the trial leader is doing and reading the chat window for instructions.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
Nothing I have said denies people the option to run whatever they want whenever fits best. But if you are level 42 and you want the best XP possible, you are going to run a defeat all ITF, not a Katie Hannon TF. What we have right now is the inverse of that, where the best rewards/time are lumped into the lowest tier Incarnate trials which are getting repeatedly spammed. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
1- Move the level shifts to Judgement/Interface tier 1. (Oedipus Tex)
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This would mean 50s could contribute in the same way as on the Apex/Tin Mage Alpha TFs except they'd also earn ixp towards the rest of their slots.
2- Allow players to see all level shifts, not just Alpha, when forming a League (Mokalus)
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3- Allow players to employ the old Lackey and Sidekick system, where a level 50 could have their combat level shifted to level (N)-1 when paired with a more experienced character. A level shifted 53 character paired with another level 50 character would increase their combat level by +2.
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4- Improve the Team Up Teleporter
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It reminds me of matchmaking in the worst way: you get matched up with random players to do Trials which with the later ones require you to have level shifts and other iPowers to make any meaningful contribution.
What we need is a listing system like the Arena menu with all the open trials listed so we can join them as we see fit. Anyone who has an open league with space can then have spots refilled or filled in after the start which still doesn't happen.
I tried using it for iTrials. I once waited two seperate nights (I have two clients so I could base build on one while waiting on the main client) and nothing. I tried again one night, got on an iTrial and without a word being spoken I was kicked off the league. So I vowed never to use it again for the Incarnate trials.
The 'waiting times' are woefully inaccurate (average waiting time) for what people want in this game.
Nothing I have said denies people the option to run whatever they want whenever fits best. But if you are level 42 and you want the best XP possible, you are going to run a defeat all ITF, not a Katie Hannon TF. What we have right now is the inverse of that, where the best rewards/time are lumped into the lowest tier Incarnate trials which are getting repeatedly spammed.
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Good leaders can make use of what they have and still come out winners.
Bad ones can have all the +3s in the league they want and still fail.
Now you will/should notice I didn't mention gimmicks anywhere in that besides the AV-shifts, the gimmicks that I have seen are certainly challenging enough on their own that they don't need extra help. Marauder is a handful to a fresh league, Siege and Nightstar can be tough to beat while stopping their bossfarm assistance AND synchronising their health at the end, Keyes is very punishing without healing/regen auras on your side but the assumption by the Incarnate system devs is that everyone has all the shifts on all their alts that they take through which is why we're getting (+1) and (+2) AVs on the newer trials which leaves two choices: leech off the veterans while they try and cover your lack of shifts (and try not to let the pancake hit the fan in the meantime) or farm the 'easier' trials to get all your shifts first and then move on to the later stuff so you can't pancake it up simply by being on the trial in the firstplace.
They are exactly that.
Tyger (50), Mutation-Controller Mind/FF - oldest Mind/FF on Union
I wonder if anyone has considered just altering the incarnate salvage system so that the low rank missions give only common and uncommon, and the mid ranks up can give rares and VR. Or something along those lines... It's probably been covered, but truth be told I skipped a lot of this thread due to time constraints.
My biggest complaint over the incarnate trials is pacing. Whenever I was doing a TF for the first time, I always had the benefit of having someone be able to explain to me what they were doing, and generally what was going on. But incarnate trials gave me no such luxury. Before going to each one, I extensively read the strategy guides for each respective trial, knowing what I thought was full well what was going to happen. But, while running these trials I find myself hearing commands I don't understand (Slam, Nades!) with no time for anyone to explain them. The players were jumping from group to group, and I had no idea who specifically to kill or what motions they'll take next. When encountering a glowie or a terminal, I wasn't sure if we were clearing, luring, or just ignoring. The trial usually ended before I could figure it out, too. I couldn't take my time to learn the trial through experience, instead getting a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am and a come back again soon. The instructions given by league leaders and the in-game text was so quickly given out that I didn't have time to understand what was happening.
This was different for the Underground and Minds of Mayhem. There was no absolute time limit to get things done, and because of this there was plenty of time to read the text, take in the sights, ask questions, and generally talk about what was going on. It is no wonder that these two trials are my favorites out of the bunch.
The others, I must have had to run them around four times succesfully before I could say I truly knew what was going on, the Lam requiring more since I had not memorized the locations of all crates and capsules. And this after reading the strategy guides. This spells out a very big problem for the whole trial system itself, and explains why it is that, despite the best efforts of league leaders, many trials fail miserably: at least a third of the players have no idea what is happening! When commands like "check your powers" are given, they don't know where to look, what they are looking for, why they are looking, what they do, where to use them, when to use them, why to use them, when not to use them, their distance, if they are re-useable or not, and how necessary it is that they be used. All they know is that the clock is ticking down, Marauder and his minions are kicking their butts, and it is possibly their fault but possibly not. Normally experienced and good players can compensate for the bad ones, and bad ones expect this. "If I'm bad at this, I'm one guy in 16, the others can probably cover for me", they think. But, this mentality carries a flaw that crops up whenever, by sheer randomness, a team is formed from of many of these bad players. When this happens, I'll end up having to do something crazy, like tank Marauder on my Dom. It never goes well.
It doesn't help that many players lack the wit to move league chat out of the general window, either.
TPN trial guide video / MoM trial guide video / DD trial guide video / BAF trial guide video
/ Lambda trial guide video / Keyes trial guide video / Magisterium trial guide video / Underground trial guide
No, none of us want that. But there is an audience for the type of gameplay the current iTrials offer, that shouldn't be ignored either. The Incarnate trials system could do with a little streamlining, but just abandoning them is not the solution. There already is small group friendly incarnate content with more standard type missions in the works for the people who really don't want to do the 'gimmicky' stuff. I don't think the disconnect between devs and players is as big as you make it out to be.
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Don't get me wrong I think that there should be more challenging trials than BAF and LAM. However, they should not rely on level shifted AV's and increasing reliance on a further expansion of the ring mechanic from the BAF.
If they continued to use that one I think you would see more people running those trials. Instead they colored it a different color made it root you and magically appear under mid animation of an attack and then DOT pulse kill you to death. The very fact that the majority of deaths come from gimmicks just shows how broken that one is...not to mention to babysitting fails.
The disconnect is not just the devs to the wider player base its also the forumites to the larger player base as well. If the wider player base felt those gimmicks were fun, fair or a challenge they would be playing those trials instead of avoiding them.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
There's a lot of assumption in this thread. "No one likes Underground, TPN, and MoM." Um, speak for yourself. Underground is my favorite Trial. TPN isn't far behind. In fact, the only trials I don't like are Lambda and Keyes.
The main two problems with these trials are 1. weak leadership, and 2. people trying to bring unlevelshifted level 50s, or level 50s that are only levelshifted +1, to them. These are not trials that are meant for them. Either one is enough to sink the trial.
Whether anyone likes it or not, City of Heroes became an endgame raiding game in Issue 20. Like any other MMOG with endgame raiding, they have tiers.
Tier 1 (Level 50): Apex TF and Tin Mage TF
Tier 2 (Level 50+1): BAF Trial, Lambda Trial, and Keyes Trial
Tier 3 (Level 50+2): Underground Trial
Tier 4 (Level 50+3): TPN Trial and MoM Trial
@Celestial Lord and @Celestial Lord Too
This spells out a very big problem for the whole trial system itself, and explains why it is that, despite the best efforts of league leaders, many trials fail miserably: at least a third of the players have no idea what is happening! When commands like "check your powers" are given, they don't know where to look, what they are looking for, why they are looking, what they do, where to use them, when to use them, why to use them, when not to use them, their distance, if they are re-useable or not, and how necessary it is that they be used. All they know is that the clock is ticking down, Marauder and his minions are kicking their butts, and it is possibly their fault but possibly not. Normally experienced and good players can compensate for the bad ones, and bad ones expect this.
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So, we go into the instance and I see snow men around me. I see snow men around me, some of my team-mates start fighting them, and I figure that's what we're supposed to do. Then I realise it's just three or four of us from one team, with the other 10 people on the League fighting the Lord of Winter. I ask what we're supposed to do and I'm told we should all attack the Lord of Winter and ignore the other enemies in the are, assuming that this should have been obvious. But the draw distance in that place is so low that I didn't realise the giant snow man was the AV we were supposed to fight. Call me crazy, but I honestly thought the Lord of Winter would have a unique model of his own. No such luck.
So what happened to these Guardians we were supposed to kill first? I don't know, but I'm told to fight the Lord of Winter, so I am. At one point I start wondering if the Lord of Winter was always this transparent and wait! Where did half the people go? Someone starts yelling something about Guardians and I'm told I'm not doing any damage to the Lord of Winter. I hadn't noticed because I can't tell my head from my *** in a multi-team mosh pit, but I take the leader's word for it.
So we start looking for this "Guardian," but my draw distance is about 5 feet from the bridge of my nose so I can't see. I start tabbing through the enemies looking for a "Guardian," but since we hadn't killed any of them, I'm just tabbing through minions. I'm told "Here!" so I follow the reticle to the person who said it. By this time, my draw distance is loosening up a bit, but all I see is more snow men, and none of them are called "Guardian." I see what my team-mate is attacking, and it's a giant monster called a "Winter's Guardian." Oh, so that's what we were fighting. I was tabbing through enemies looking for the one whose name starts with a G.
OK, now I'm starting to piece together what's going on. We fight the Lord of Winter until he becomes intangible and summons a Winter's Guardian. My draw distance decreases dramatically when this happens, which is my cue to look for said Guardian, who is a giant snow man. We defeat this Guardian, then return to fight the Lord of Winter some more. I ask about it, and I'm told that, no, he does not regenerate when he's intangible. Right, so there's no reason to hurry.
Then someone says we have 10 minutes left. Wait, what? Ten minutes left to do what? And only THEN do I realise this is actually a timed mission. Wow. I never even looked at my Nav window, what with the confusing cluster-hug happening around the Lord of Winter and all this business with the Winter Guardians. So we have 10 minutes left, but he's pretty damaged. At first I'm worried, but then we bring the Lord of Winter down to almost nothing and we still have something like 6 minutes on the clock with another Winter Guardian left to kill. We won this with time to spare, but I never wanted to set foot in one of these again.
Look, I'm not a dumb guy, but this Trial was confusing to me as a first-timer. At no point did I ever see any instructions about anything at all. I had to go by what my Trial Leader was telling me to do, and he was explaining it like I'd already done the Trial before, which I hadn't. I thank my lucky star I was able to sort of think on my feet and that I have a compulsive need to comprehend what it is I'm actually doing and why I'm doing it, but that was not a fun experience. And I'm told the Lord Winter's Realm is a simple Trial. Ugh.
And you know what the final joke was? For all its complexity, this was STILL easily the most boring thing I've done in my entire seven years on this game. It was so boring as to be comparable to the old-style Hamidon which took 4 hours and 150 people to beat and the Dr. Khan TF Reichsman fight where I spend 45 minutes pressing attack buttons with one hand and supporting my chin with the other, occasionally chatting about how boring this is. That's some epic level boredom here.
I do not want to run this Trial again. Putting the team together took forever and was boring, the trial was simultaneously boring and confusing and at the end of the day, it just wasn't a cool thing to do. A mosh pit is not my idea of a fun time.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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There's a lot of assumption in this thread. "No one likes Underground, TPN, and MoM." Um, speak for yourself. Underground is my favorite Trial. TPN isn't far behind. In fact, the only trials I don't like are Lambda and Keyes.
The main two problems with these trials are 1. weak leadership, and 2. people trying to bring unlevelshifted level 50s, or level 50s that are only levelshifted +1, to them. These are not trials that are meant for them. Either one is enough to sink the trial. Whether anyone likes it or not, City of Heroes became an endgame raiding game in Issue 20. Like any other MMOG with endgame raiding, they have tiers. Tier 1 (Level 50): Apex TF and Tin Mage TF Tier 2 (Level 50+1): BAF Trial, Lambda Trial, and Keyes Trial Tier 3 (Level 50+2): Underground Trial Tier 4 (Level 50+3): TPN Trial and MoM Trial |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)