By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-12-20 18:56 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
There is NO HARD GATING in levels 1-50. Why? SSK.
|
|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
I don't think anything that I have posted in this thread is about creating an UBER-leet divide.
|
|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
There was a proposal on Beta server to lessen the rewards of BAF and LAM at some point in a character's career and force them to move up the Incarnate content food chain so that they could properly progress. Oh how I wish this had happened.
|
|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
My only expectation is that trials should function better than they currently are. Team content 1-50 was hard gated behind level requirements for Task Forces and Trials. So is each tier of content 1-50 only meant for the uber-leet? If so then I guess my expectations have ben shaped by, oh I don't know, the entire darn game then.
Proper gating whether hard or soft is required for there to be a proper difficulty progression in these trials. |
|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
That's splitting hairs. Do you know how much the purple patch penalizes a player against anything greater than +4? Against a+5 or +6 enemy, anything except for a buff class might as well not even be there.
|
|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Isn't hard gating the inability of a level 1 to join a level 10-14 TF, or a level 15-19 TF, or a level 50 RSF?
|
That would have been so much worse.
|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
There was a proposal on Beta server to lessen the rewards of BAF and LAM at some point in a character's career and force them to move up the Incarnate content food chain so that they could properly progress. Oh how I wish this had happened. The more difficult trials NEED characters that have developed to a certain point of power in the incarnate system to properly contribute, but there is a chasm between the current state of Incarnate content and where it needs to be for a healthy end game. What should be a linear progression towards more difficult trials with the option to return to older content has become an incessant grind fest of the easiest content at the detriment of gaming experience and long term VIP retention.
Is there any way to fix this? |
|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
You said this, right? That smacks of elitism to me.
|
|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
If I'm reading you right you are saying:
|
|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
You seem to be very sensitive to any issue that involves tiers or haves and have-nots. I am not sure how what I wrote is elitism. I was merely using that phrase to prove a point. I certainly don't think that what the developers proposed was the best solution, nor do I hope that it is immediately implemented.
There is currently very little reason for people veer from spamming BAF and Lambda should their primary goal be to gain Incarnate powers. Once you have trivialized older content by gaining levels, it should not grant the same rewards/time that it did when you first attempted it; that's a fundamental law in any RPG/MMORPG/video game. Notice that I said it should not grant the same rewards, not that it should grant no rewards what so ever. It's not just about level shifts-- it's also about the powers themselves and how they can contribute. I would list the current situation as:
|
|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
You seem to be very sensitive to any issue that involves tiers or haves and have-nots. I am not sure how what I wrote is elitism. I was merely using that phrase to prove a point. I certainly don't think that what the developers proposed was the best solution, nor do I hope that it is immediately implemented.
|
|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
There is currently very little reason for people veer from spamming BAF and Lambda should their primary goal be to gain Incarnate powers. Once you have trivialized older content by gaining levels, it should not grant the same rewards/time that it did when you first attempted it; that's a fundamental law in any RPG/MMORPG/video game. Notice that I said it should not grant the same rewards, not that it should grant no rewards what so ever.
|
|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
It's not just about level shifts-- it's also about the powers themselves and how they can contribute. I would list the current situation as:
|
|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Basically, my tolerance (and my fun) of a trial goes down with the increased number of ways a trial can fail due to player ineptness. The later trials introduce more ways for that to ruin my enjoyment.
|
Just to recap what I think some of the best suggestions have been:
1- Move the level shifts to Judgement/Interface tier 1. (Oedipus Tex)
|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I don't agree. I think anyone should be able to do whatever content at any time. That's what has defined COH all this time. Sticking to the traditional RAID treadmill is a terrible idea.
|
|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I've done BAFs, Lambdas, and the original Keyes with teams with only the common and uncommon tiers of the Alpha slot. With above average players, they were not only possible but somewhat reasonable to do without level shifts or later powers (Keyes benefiting from later power though). Underground/TPN/MoM, forget it. With the average player on the live servers? I wouldn't want to do any of them without most of the team being level shifted. Even then, I'm growing increasingly apathetic about doing ANY trials because a lot of players can't seem to do the basic tasks of the older trials.
|
I don't find the TPN and Keyes fun.
TPN may benefit if the doors to the media buildings were clearly noted so we know where to go. It is far too often just disorganized chaos. Also the thought of being 'stoned' to death by a civilian (regardless of debuff) is silly. Also, the story behind the TPN is fine but it isn't something that should be a trial. It is more TF quality in it's importance. Should we really be getting our incarnate powers off this sort of mission??? Not very 'epic' at all.
Keyes is just running all over and a poor mechanic. I don't think it is very fun at all. On Virtue they happen from time to time and it seems mostly due to increased rewards.
I like the BAF and Lambda. You know the task. It is easy for new trial types and vets of the trials to quickly grasp the idea. It translates well to the video game realm and more often than not you will succeed.
MoM trial is OK but, again, a wonky mechanic with the psychic dots and later stopping the AV from getting to the middle of the room. Kinda un-fun.
The Underground is OK but it is tough. Chances of failure are too high. It takes a while to form trials especially when they're over 12 players. Underground may have worked better as a 12 toon trial.
So, yeah, I admit I have opted for the BAF and Lambda more often because you can contribute, it isn't overly chaotic and these two are kinda fun. The rest? Not as fun. TPN and Keyes? I avoid them.
|
Originally Posted by Kisana
so basically what you are saying is that all trials and TF's should just involve standing still either at range or in melee and all just beat down on an AV?
Thats sounds really exciting - unfortunately i think most people would prefer a bit more of a challenge - and HAVE to actually watch their screens and react rather than just hide in the mass of heals and buffs and go afk for 5 mins! |
|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
Isn't most of this ineptness simply due to a lack of knowledge/understanding of what to do, and why, in a given trial?
|
|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
Newcomers to the trials can't really be faulted for not knowing what sequestering is or how to deal with it properly.
|
|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
Same for any other trial gimmick you care to name. Sure, the first layer of blame can be laid at the feet of the devs for constructing trials like this in the first place. But beyond that, I think it is incumbent upon the player community itself to teach/inform each wave of new players so that they aren't stuck in a position of unwittingly jeopardizing every trial they participate in.
|
|
Originally Posted by MasterStryker
This much I am aware of....Snow knows his stuff. Whenever he is on an Itrial that fails, he stays and goes over what to do for the next run so people will know. The same can be said for badge runs of those trials.
|
|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
If, after a new trial has been out for a couple of weeks, new players are still contributing less than they could due to lack of understanding, who is to blame except the veterans who have neither the skills or inclination to instruct?
|
|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
the devs who have put players in this position in the first place.
|
|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
Unless there is a very strong reason to expect future trials to be radically different in design and approach, I feel the only course left to those of us who still want to experience the Incarnate system is to roll up our sleeves and do a better job of tutoring newbies (and there is almost always at least one, as demonstrated by the fact that the opening cut scenes in BAF and Keyes rarely go unplayed, at least in my experience).
|
|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
often when a MOM, Underground, or TPN gets organized there is a glut of level 50 characters that join aboard to either experience something new, or to leech the increased rewards from higher tier trials, and both motivations invariably cause a disproportionate amount of these trials to fail. This happens despite requests for characters to be level shifted to +2 minimum.
|
| I don't agree. I think anyone should be able to do whatever content at any time. That's what has defined COH all this time. Sticking to the traditional RAID treadmill is a terrible idea. |
|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
As I stated you are forced to react already with the BAF and the bosses coming at you from various directions. If the league does not move and react to them it can and has lead to cascade fail as it should.
|
| In terms of what I would do, I would use my data mined information on the TF's that have been there for years and see what people liked about the ones that the majority of people ran the most. I would remove the level shifted AV's from the new trials as it serves as nothing more than a catalyst for fragmentation of the player base. |
|
The devs could stand to do what other companies have when faced with what I see as a slight disconnect with the larger player base and use brief specific focus surveys. They spend a tremendous amount on the BETA server and also do e-mails. I think a brief e-mail survey or even a focus group could really help the devs reconnect with the wider player base outside of the forums. Failing to do this will lead to further disconnect and further player base fragmentation and none of us want that. |
I agree on points 2 and 4.
Point 1, no way. T3 on alpha, Destiny and lore is fine.
Point 3, no because of how much leagues have people who drop out and how often team orders scramble. Way too many things to break. Even so, it doesn't fix it when some player who is 50 suddenly gets the league star and doesn't shift things to a 53.
If the devs want players to play trials, they have to cut down on time and gimmicks.
|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Just to recap what I think some of the best suggestions have been:
1- Move the level shifts to Judgement/Interface tier 1. (Oedipus Tex)
2- Allow players to see all level shifts, not just Alpha, when forming a League (Mokalus)
3- Allow players to employ the old Lackey and Sidekick system, where a level 50 could have their combat level shifted to level (N)-1 when paired with a more experienced character. A level shifted 53 character paired with another level 50 character would increase their combat level by +2.
4- Improve the Team Up Teleporter
Nothing I have said denies people the option to run whatever they want whenever fits best. But if you are level 42 and you want the best XP possible, you are going to run a defeat all ITF, not a Katie Hannon TF. What we have right now is the inverse of that, where the best rewards/time are lumped into the lowest tier Incarnate trials which are getting repeatedly spammed. |
|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
No. Last night, despite 20/20 Lambda sabotage objectives being accomplished, 5 doors weren't shut, despite many players asking players to look at their temp power lists for the acids. A basic play mechanic (looking through temp powers) shouldn't be the cause of a Lambda failure last night, 9 months after the trial has been introduced.
|
|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I explain trial mechanics, before, during, and after trials to help players get up to speed with them. Yet still they fail because people don't want to listen. I'm willing to take my own play time and explain game mechanics to players. Are you?
|
|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I nearly always ask if someone hasn't done a trial before. I hardly ever get a response.
|
|
Originally Posted by Wing_Leader
Isn't most of this ineptness simply due to a lack of knowledge/understanding of what to do, and why, in a given trial?
|
|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Nothing I have said denies people the option to run whatever they want whenever fits best. But if you are level 42 and you want the best XP possible, you are going to run a defeat all ITF, not a Katie Hannon TF. What we have right now is the inverse of that, where the best rewards/time are lumped into the lowest tier Incarnate trials which are getting repeatedly spammed. |
|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
1- Move the level shifts to Judgement/Interface tier 1. (Oedipus Tex)
|
|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
2- Allow players to see all level shifts, not just Alpha, when forming a League (Mokalus)
|
|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
3- Allow players to employ the old Lackey and Sidekick system, where a level 50 could have their combat level shifted to level (N)-1 when paired with a more experienced character. A level shifted 53 character paired with another level 50 character would increase their combat level by +2.
|
|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
4- Improve the Team Up Teleporter
|
|
Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Nothing I have said denies people the option to run whatever they want whenever fits best. But if you are level 42 and you want the best XP possible, you are going to run a defeat all ITF, not a Katie Hannon TF. What we have right now is the inverse of that, where the best rewards/time are lumped into the lowest tier Incarnate trials which are getting repeatedly spammed.
|
|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Incarnate Trials and the whole Incarnate system in general strike me as a case of wanting to eat your cake and have it, too.
|
|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
|
I wonder if anyone has considered just altering the incarnate salvage system so that the low rank missions give only common and uncommon, and the mid ranks up can give rares and VR. Or something along those lines... It's probably been covered, but truth be told I skipped a lot of this thread due to time constraints.
My biggest complaint over the incarnate trials is pacing. Whenever I was doing a TF for the first time, I always had the benefit of having someone be able to explain to me what they were doing, and generally what was going on. But incarnate trials gave me no such luxury. Before going to each one, I extensively read the strategy guides for each respective trial, knowing what I thought was full well what was going to happen. But, while running these trials I find myself hearing commands I don't understand (Slam, Nades!) with no time for anyone to explain them. The players were jumping from group to group, and I had no idea who specifically to kill or what motions they'll take next. When encountering a glowie or a terminal, I wasn't sure if we were clearing, luring, or just ignoring. The trial usually ended before I could figure it out, too. I couldn't take my time to learn the trial through experience, instead getting a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am and a come back again soon. The instructions given by league leaders and the in-game text was so quickly given out that I didn't have time to understand what was happening.
This was different for the Underground and Minds of Mayhem. There was no absolute time limit to get things done, and because of this there was plenty of time to read the text, take in the sights, ask questions, and generally talk about what was going on. It is no wonder that these two trials are my favorites out of the bunch.
The others, I must have had to run them around four times succesfully before I could say I truly knew what was going on, the Lam requiring more since I had not memorized the locations of all crates and capsules. And this after reading the strategy guides. This spells out a very big problem for the whole trial system itself, and explains why it is that, despite the best efforts of league leaders, many trials fail miserably: at least a third of the players have no idea what is happening! When commands like "check your powers" are given, they don't know where to look, what they are looking for, why they are looking, what they do, where to use them, when to use them, why to use them, when not to use them, their distance, if they are re-useable or not, and how necessary it is that they be used. All they know is that the clock is ticking down, Marauder and his minions are kicking their butts, and it is possibly their fault but possibly not. Normally experienced and good players can compensate for the bad ones, and bad ones expect this. "If I'm bad at this, I'm one guy in 16, the others can probably cover for me", they think. But, this mentality carries a flaw that crops up whenever, by sheer randomness, a team is formed from of many of these bad players. When this happens, I'll end up having to do something crazy, like tank Marauder on my Dom. It never goes well.
It doesn't help that many players lack the wit to move league chat out of the general window, either.
|
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
No, none of us want that. But there is an audience for the type of gameplay the current iTrials offer, that shouldn't be ignored either. The Incarnate trials system could do with a little streamlining, but just abandoning them is not the solution. There already is small group friendly incarnate content with more standard type missions in the works for the people who really don't want to do the 'gimmicky' stuff. I don't think the disconnect between devs and players is as big as you make it out to be.
|
There's a lot of assumption in this thread. "No one likes Underground, TPN, and MoM." Um, speak for yourself. Underground is my favorite Trial. TPN isn't far behind. In fact, the only trials I don't like are Lambda and Keyes.
The main two problems with these trials are 1. weak leadership, and 2. people trying to bring unlevelshifted level 50s, or level 50s that are only levelshifted +1, to them. These are not trials that are meant for them. Either one is enough to sink the trial.
Whether anyone likes it or not, City of Heroes became an endgame raiding game in Issue 20. Like any other MMOG with endgame raiding, they have tiers.
Tier 1 (Level 50): Apex TF and Tin Mage TF
Tier 2 (Level 50+1): BAF Trial, Lambda Trial, and Keyes Trial
Tier 3 (Level 50+2): Underground Trial
Tier 4 (Level 50+3): TPN Trial and MoM Trial
|
Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
This spells out a very big problem for the whole trial system itself, and explains why it is that, despite the best efforts of league leaders, many trials fail miserably: at least a third of the players have no idea what is happening! When commands like "check your powers" are given, they don't know where to look, what they are looking for, why they are looking, what they do, where to use them, when to use them, why to use them, when not to use them, their distance, if they are re-useable or not, and how necessary it is that they be used. All they know is that the clock is ticking down, Marauder and his minions are kicking their butts, and it is possibly their fault but possibly not. Normally experienced and good players can compensate for the bad ones, and bad ones expect this.
|
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
|
Originally Posted by Celestial_Lord
There's a lot of assumption in this thread. "No one likes Underground, TPN, and MoM." Um, speak for yourself. Underground is my favorite Trial. TPN isn't far behind. In fact, the only trials I don't like are Lambda and Keyes.
The main two problems with these trials are 1. weak leadership, and 2. people trying to bring unlevelshifted level 50s, or level 50s that are only levelshifted +1, to them. These are not trials that are meant for them. Either one is enough to sink the trial. Whether anyone likes it or not, City of Heroes became an endgame raiding game in Issue 20. Like any other MMOG with endgame raiding, they have tiers. Tier 1 (Level 50): Apex TF and Tin Mage TF Tier 2 (Level 50+1): BAF Trial, Lambda Trial, and Keyes Trial Tier 3 (Level 50+2): Underground Trial Tier 4 (Level 50+3): TPN Trial and MoM Trial |