What is the Role of a Tanker

Well, you have to remember the justification for asking for moar damage and moar caps and less brute envy gets a little more thin when you ignore writing that might just be worth ignoring because it's bad.

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I want to remind people of a few things I learned on the forums several years ago (no citations, sorry...would appreciate some if available):

1) Long ago the Devs discovered that aggro didn't work the way they thought it did. They'd actually been wrong about it for over a year. However, they decided they liked the way it worked, rather than how they THOUGHT it worked, and decided to leave it alone.

In other words the creators of the game don't fully understand how some parts of it work.

2) A Shield Scrapper's Taunt aura from AAO will strip aggro off of just about anyone even though it's listed as a Mag 3 Taunt and a Tanker's Taunt is Mag 4. This has been observed countless times by players.

3) I have seen Empaths and others using AoE heals ONLY draw aggro away from a team actively engadged in combat. I read that the Devs claim 'there is no Aggro component to the AoE Heals and if there was we've turned it off.' My friend ran 3 missions without throwing so much as a Brawl attack in the midst of the rest of us doing hideous damage and he was still flattened by attacks specifically targeted at him.

4) As far as I know Aggro is affected by range as well as damage. A target far away with higher threat is not as dangerous as a lower-threat target standing on your toes. However a Tanker standing toe to toe with a target can have aggro stripped by a Blaster far away if the Blaster's damage is high enough.

In a nutshell, Aggro doesn't always work the way the Devs think it does. Some Powers, coupled with either damage, close proximity or both, can outstrip any Tanker threat level (see: Shield Scrapper doing any sort of damage).

Now that Scrappers, Brutes and Tankers can all play on the same team problems that were not evident before (except for the ITF and other co-op functions) are suddenly coming to light. THAT'S why Tank players are grousing...not because they're making up some deficiency just to get Dev attention.

Coming to tanking relatively late in my CoH career after playing defenders, in particular debuffing defenders, I immediately took to thinking of tanking as a form of controlling, with a mix of hardish (taunt) and softish (PbAoEs) controls. When I get the spawn to shoot at me, and I can take the damage/mezzing without much problem, its the exact equivalent functionally of a controller using an AoE Hold on them, say. The difference being that its much easier and safer for me to perma my control effects then for most controllers, in addition to being more efficient in that I have more control over where the mobs go and can clump them up.

One suggestion I saw that I liked was to give tankers one PbAoE with larger radius and perhaps larger target cap then the scrapper/brute equivalent. No additional damage, but just a way to get the attention of a more dispersed group. Lots of high level mobs these days like their ranged attacks so much that they never really close on anyone, and even with my fire tank who has plenty of PbAoEs a friend on a fire controller was regularly dying just because his AoE Immob was so much bigger then my biggest PbAoE that he would catch a lot of stray aggro. Admittedly, he was a fairly aggressive player and considered Rise of the Phoenix part of his attack chain.

I am not one of those players that says "Only need one tank on the team" I am not one of those players that says "Tanks shouldn't beable to do damage"

As a player, my only thought on the role of the Tanker is to do one thing...jump into the next spawn and take the alpha strike for the team!

Anything after that is just gravy in my eyes.

Though, I always thought of them a bit of a controller. Instead of locking down the spawns, they lock all the spawns onto them, then try to survive it while the team lays waste.

I do think Bruising was a great benefit to Tankers (not sure if it's enough) in that I know I hated dealing with single hard targets to a stand still. I'm willing to build for that added damage, but I want most of the combos in an AT to beable to reach the point of (to me) feeling like they are a hero/villain that can stand one on one with an AV/Hero and win against at least some of them (there will of course always be exceptions for a lot of the combos).

If I was to make any real changes to Tankers, well it would include manyc hanges to other ATs and be a different game all together, so as of now, my only hope with Tankers on the team is for them to run right into the next spawn hoping they survive it or that the team will be right behind them in time to make sure they do.

Basically, I hate slow moving teams

For when I'm playing the tank, well, it would be nice if I didnt have that shield scrapper pulling aggro off me IA Tanker with two taunt auras, punchvoke and taunt going.

Why does nightfall use the range mod arcana?

I want to comment on the OP with just a bit on the rest of this thread.

The tankers role needs to be evaluated based on the current game. History of the game and what tanks did 5 years ago is great, and should be considered when thinking about how players react to changes etc. But really, when you go to roll a new lvl 1 tank right now, what you did 5 years ago really doesnt matter anymore. the game evolved.

that said, the tanker roll as an AT is simple. To provide a playstyle different then that of scrappers, brutes and Stalkers. At this, the tank AT succeeds- on its face. No other AT is as easy to make into a very tough, takes a beating without a sweat character. it is true that specific IO bonus and build considerations can blur the lines, but, in general tanks can be made tougher still using the same methods.

Whether or not this is a "required attribute" for team play is largely irrelevent; no AT has a "required" attribute. They do have pro's and con's, and some do certain things better then others, but this is not Everquest in tights. A team of 8 tanks can beat pretty much whatever in the game, a team of blasters can, etc. Outside of content specifically designed to be extra difficult, or designed specifically for mixed teams. Usually, these require force multipliers to succeed.


Now then, that said i think there is something to be said as for "what do players feel a tank should do on a team" and also how that compares to "how do players actually play tanks".

to me, the tank is the extra durable point man. Solo, the tank is the AT used to make super tough characters that like to get in to the fray and throw punches. On a team, its pretty much the same thing really, with the added mechanic of being able to help protect your teammates. All the aggro gathering tools make it possible. the methods used and the varying degrees of success that follow are on the player.

the tank is the point man. A good tank drives the team- as such a good tank will have to gauge and trust his team mates possibly more then any other AT which is a little odd considering how durable the tank is. The tank will be the first one in, and will set the pace. The tank will use AOE and taunt to help manage aggro, and position enemies. This of course, is where the whole subject of "what do tanks need" gets its foundation.

because

"Brutes can do it too!! Scrappers do it almost as good and do tons more dmg!!" This is true...sort of. it is a matter of deciding how much gray area should be allowed. After all, a peacebringer can hit the res cap easily on a team, and there are enough buffs and debuff mechanics in this game a team full of defenders can make mincemeat out of hoardes of foes and laugh and eat cake while they do it. But, it takes some special circumstances or team composition etc to accomplish this. I think the biggest beef here, out of all the AT comparisons, is the gray area between brutes/tanks/scrappers is too big. The amount of "special circumstances" required to effectivley allow the non tank AT's to perform that roll of point man and aggro manager is too low.


now, that said, that isnt really a problem of itself. in fact, the idea that the dev team of City of could create such a situation in a game with such an unprecedented amount of force multiplying mechanics is really profound. City of really has pioneered this aspect of MMO mechanics and balance.

So then, what does one do to give the tank AT that little something special that makes the AT play differently enough from the other melee AT to make it feel more unique? IMO, the answer will not be found anywhere in the realm of AT modifiers. it used to be found in available powersets a long time ago, but proliferation and CoV has eliminated that. it used to be gauntlet and taunt effectivness, and AT modifyers and caps, but CoV to some extent, and IO's to a much larger extent removed that. So, they added bruising. Bruising was something, but not enough at all.

The answer falls in the AT inherent ability and how it has essentially been massively diluted by giving brutes so much taunt ability. Now, they can not take that away from them as the fury mechnic is balanced around it. They need to give tankers a new mechanic.

IMO, it needs to be some kind of mix of kheldian team based mechanics(honestly the peacebring AT inherent would fit tanks to a point except the mez part) and somthing else that yes I will say it, specifically affects dmg output- though mostly for solo purposes and AT uniqueness rather then team dmg output. For instance, once upon a time like 5 years ago i read a suggestion that tanks get a dmg bonus to objects or non-living entities like robots. because you know, superman would cut loose on stuff when he knew no one was going to actually die from it. Now I am not saying that is the right mechanic, BUT something to that effect, an outside the box AT mechanic is needed here.

This would solve the tanker woes. it is also going to be really difficult to get something going on these lines in a game that is this old and established. but it is possible. The tanker AT is old, and stuck in a game designed 7 years ago that doesnt exist anymore. The Tankr At needs a new inherent mechanic that brings it into the "new" game we have now. No more taunt bots, herd bots, or well, tank really. not by the Everquest standard anyway. We need a City of point man AT.


On that note, perhaps a new thread for brainstorming such new inherent mechanics is needed?

When I'm on my Brute I like a ton of agro. To clarify I tend to run SS/Invul or Dark/Invul (Do I ever get bored...no...weird huh?), and have just begun a solo all content Blueside - all, every mission-every contact-every hunt 10 X- on a SS/Invul Brute. So I know my Brutes. I build them to Tank, and they Tank well. Plus, I have some of the qualities that makes a great Tanker (some, not all, sigh). I know the game, I like to be first in the mosh pit, I like to set the pace for a team. I don't love communicating with the team, and if they don't get my tactics/strategy I am very frustrated explaining them almost before I start typing. I need the agro to fuel my damage. Invul has no damage aura, so I convert its sturdiness into extra damage for my primary. So, I do not like to compete for the agro, and I use the FIFO (first in/first out) approach to mobs. In truth there are very few hard chargers who come close to me for stealing agro on teams. I'd say about 10%. When they do, it is way obvious. Whether they are a well built Scrapper, another agro hungry Brute, or a clever Tank, it becomes clear I have to adjust my play. Again, I dont like to talk, and given mission structures there is usually a good opportunity to leap frog each other. Its fun to see if the other agro magnet catches on to the tactic. So, I like me a Brute. What does this have to do with Tanks?

I think Tanks need more agro tools. A higher Agro cap, 1.5x, 2x? At least another 4-6 mobs in their cap. Also, the taunt needs to hit more mobs. Now I brought up all my Brute stuff so you folks realize that even though I am a agro sponge brute I would gladly see this change for Tanks. It is the lazy Brute that cannot off tank and get enough agro to maintain Fury. A Tank's job has always been soft controlling mobs. In todays high end steamroller game the tools they have to do this job are just outdated. I am not saying modify Brutes agro cap, I honestly think it would overwhelm some Brutes to have that much agro. But Tanks either need to be completely redefined for the modern game (and I mean rebuilt from the ground up) or they need to be given updated tools to do their original job.

also, I think Tanks should be sturdier against auto hit auto kill late game Meta Tools that Devs are throwing into trials, but that is another post.

Oh. That was YOU in the "Floor Inspector's Union: Local 2814" t-shirt, planking in that last iTrial.

I'd have helped, but I was too busy, y'know, tanking.

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

The problem with defining the Tanker's role is that comic books and other MMOs disagree on what a tank is.

In comic books, the "tank" is the invulnerable super-strong stereotype. They are usually the toughest member of a team, and usually deal quite a bit of damage. This is problematic in video game design, because you cannot have one AT that is simultaneously the toughest AND among the top damage dealers. Dealing exceptional damage and being the toughest member of a team at the same time is not fair to other members of that team.

Comic books have writers that can decide who is going to win a given fight beforehand, regardless of the actual power levels involved. (See Squirrel Girl defeating Dr. Doom for a prime example) If they want Superman to lose to a toddler with a sharpened stick, they can make it happen. Video games have no such ability. Everything in a game is determined by the numbers involved. To that end, tanks have lower damage so they don't outshine the other melee ATs in every measurable way.

Other MMOs view the "tanker" as nothing more than a punching bag. Your average fantasy MMO tanker builds to be as indestructible as possible within the confines of that game. That almost always means the tanker sacrifices all or most of their damage dealing ability. Especially when you consider that, quite frequently, Tank and Melee DPS are two different ways of building the exact same character class.

The difference there is the fact that in CoH a tank is actually a viable damage dealer. If you don't believe me, go play any other game and watch how much damage the appointed tanker is actually dealing compared to their teammates.

I see CoH's Tanker role as being a mix of the two ideas of what a tank is. They are meant to hold the agro of attacking enemies, and they are capable of adding a respectable amount of damage to the fight as well.

If there is a tank on the team, they are the one that picks the fight. Their job from that point forward is to ensure that they remain the primary target of the enemies in question. They do that through passive taunt auras, and active taunting, which includes both the power Taunt, and attacking with their own damage dealing powers.

They are NOT meant to be the primary damage dealer on a team. If they were capable of the same kind of damage output as a blaster, they would make pretty much every other AT in the game redundant. Insane levels of survivability and extreme damage output should not be found within the same AT.

I personally believe that Brutes should have their survivability reduced somewhat to preserve that balance. The only reason I find it tolerable is that a Brute cannot even hope to reach Tanker levels of survivability by itself, it absolutely requires outside support to reach that point.

When you want additional melee damage, invite a Scrapper, Stalker, or Brute, because they have more damage than a Tanker.

If you are specifically looking for someone to keep the battlefield under control, invite a Tanker, because no one in the game can do that job better. A Tanker can move the battle to any point in the map they choose.

A GOOD Tanker is the team's strategist, choosing which enemies are engaged, and when. The more difficult the task ahead of you is, the more important the Tanker's role becomes.

A BAD Tanker is one who engages enemies willy-nilly with no thought to the agro they have spilling off them onto their teammates.

It is not difficult to tell a good Tanker from a bad Tanker. It's usually apparent within the first couple fights in a mission.

I play two dom's - earth and ice. Both of them try to prevent the alpha by dropping a control first. Earthquake and Ice Slick can be dropped from out of LoS. A scrapper should be able to tank with me, because he shouldn't have to take the alpha.

I do find on my dom that I want someone keeping aggro off me - and I do like herding, since my controls are AoE and bunching foes makes me much more effective.

So I still like teaming with a tanker.

As a semantic thing, there is a problem with the question "what is the role of tankers" since there are not roles in CoX. Part of what causes arguments is using a word like role which sounds like a tanker is considered necessary by some.

From a business perspective the question is "why would a player choose to play a tanker" - and the answer is that they can tank and do so easily, from early levels, and are easy to play. Brutes may be able to do it, but require IO's or knowing how to maximize a build.

From an experienced players perspective I assume the question is "what are tankers better than any other AT at".

As a dominator, your time is split between damage and control. If somenoe else is doing one of those jobs, you can afford to prioritise the other. As teaming with a blaster, it becomes your job to tank, so to does teaming with a tanker give you leeway to be gentler with your control output and more focused on your damage.

And your question contains within it the false premise that they need to be better than any other AT at stuff. Again, blasters and stalkers compare to brutes and scrappers. Dominators do not do better damage than scrappers, they just do damage.

The reason people want to play tankers is because tankers give them the mix of whatever it is they want in the amounts they prefer. People will naturally gravitate towards those things that they enjoy the most and this is not a game that punishes you for changing your mind and starting new characters.

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