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There's a difference between "melee damage", which is what the tanks ARE inflicting. Only in a couple cases, are there ranged attacks involved and "scrapper-level melee damage".|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
You said it:
"Johnny, the tank's other role used to be melee damage and the lines you're emphasizing were true" |
You're simply missing the difference.
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You seem to be under the impression that you have brought up valid points.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
So when someone comes in with a different opinion, presents valid points that support it and even have people concede the point they are essentially correct, let's handwave it and focus purely on your PoV?
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Hrm. I read (most) of your previous threads. I conceded that based on the descriptions written that you quoted you were correct. I commiserated I had similar problems with whoever they had write that stuff.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
So no, I will not just roll over and agree with you just to "be productive". I am currently being extremely well behaved for me, as others have observed. I'm doing this so Tankers get the dev attention they deserve. But if you chose to make me a "problem", I can become one; and people will testify I can be a very disruptive, very annoying, very persistent problem indeed.
. |
I then explained why none of those adjectives make a difference in how the AT is designed or used or it's game balance.
You honestly think that threatening me with belligerent typing is going to get you somewhere? Is that your actual point, you are correct because you can type angrier? Well, have at it. Type on, be right.
(Guess it will be my job to stand here and hold Agro, since I have no damage dealing ability, until something comes along and smites that which is annoying the party....)
To get back on the topic of a tanker's role, a tanker protects the team, but is not alone in that role. I've never seen my tankers as the sole source of a team's protection, and don't think it should even be considered as the primary role of tankers, since it's only one aspect of several archetypes' roles.
I don't necessarily want to be the hammer that smashes my foes to bits. The role of the hammer falls to scrappers, brutes and blasters.
My tankers are the anvil.
From 1-30 they stand directly between the enemy and their teammates. The team's damage is focused on them and they serve as the focal point for all the fireballs, fists and steel that their team can unleash.
From 31-50 they are hunters, moving beyond the enemy's front ranks even as the team is mopping up and funneling spawn after spawn back to die as the team slogs forward through a red haze of combat. If a team feels like the mission was one long battle vise a series of smaller skirmishes - and no one died - then my tanker has done his job.
In the incarnate game all bets are off. Incarnate powers give every teammate - regardless of archetype - the ability to be completely self-sustaining. Nonetheless my tankers are still the anvil standing between the Praetorian archvillains and the rest of the team. Say what you will about shiny rings, nova fists and whatever insta-kill ability a trial is kicking out, it's always a tanker that's asked to pull Siege to the tennis courts or drag Neuron from terminal to terminal. My incarnate tankers stand in the 51+ content where they stood for their first 30 levels: between Battle Maiden/Maelstrom/Tyrant/whoever and the team. There is a noticeable difference when a tanker isn't there.
It's when my tankers are solo and on small teams that they really feel lacking, especially when the tanker is also the designated damage dealer. The team is safe, but also bored. On small teams I tend to tank less and fight more, letting the taunt aura do the tanking for me. My tanker fights more like a really weak brute on small teams.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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I'm curious as to why you guys weren't all making this much fuss about the poor blaster when the Scrapper was doing his job. Could it be that this 'muddying' has been going on since Day 1 and isn't any kind of a big deal?
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Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
With the inclusion of hero Brutes as teammates in Paragon City, the waters are now muddy.
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Do you think there are any specific improvements that could be made to Gauntlet that would allow it to be clearly an advantage in terms of generating AoE threat (without it being what I usually call "auto-win" aggro*)?|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Likewise, my one request is that Tanks get an edge in holding aggro. Right now, Tanks are exactly equivalent to Brutes in threat generation with the exception of damage.
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I know its not highly regarded, but keep in mind Brutes with sets like DM, Energy Melee, etc. are fairly limited in their AoE threat generation and would have to rely at best on their auras 9which are typically 8ft and 10 targets).
So I think improving how gauntlet functions would be the first step, as this should be a relatively easy fix and is also the Tanker's inherent.
*I dislike auto-win aggro, I dislike when ATs that can hold threat make the game completely safe. Its one of the reasons I'm against increasing aggro caps for Tankers or any AT.
I think taunt mechanics in this game are too strong to begin with or other effects like healing/debuffs need to be regarded higher on threat generation. Obviously at this stage in the game and the archaic code of the threat system being what it is, its probably a moot point.
However my opinion is that characters intended to hold aggro should have to work at it a bit rather than have it be an instant auto-lockdown imo. This is why we are both stuck in tank & spank for most of the game and then forced to jump through hoops in incarnate trials (because the devs need to add challenge while avoiding static fights which have long been complained about, and quite frankly things like the power of threat mechanics make it difficult to make challenging boss encounters - hence we get special mechanics).
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Lots and LOTS of "MPH".
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
I'm curious as to why you guys weren't all making this much fuss about the poor blaster when the Scrapper was doing his job. Could it be that this 'muddying' has been going on since Day 1 and isn't any kind of a big deal?
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It's not that's why so many have shown that Tanker threat modifiers need to be changed. It's just that you don't want that to happen and only want Tankers to do more damage. You won't be happy until you see your particular powerset of choice popping bigger orange numbers. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
So answer me this question: Why is it wrong to improve Tanker offense because it might "crowd" the Brute out of one of its roles, but it's OK that Brutes came into the picture and pushed the Tanker out of one of their roles? |
Never mind that there are Tankers that can achieve high DPS chains and do quite respectable melee damage even when compared to Brutes. You don't want that though, do you? You want bigger orange numbers.
You many not like it JB, but Tankers from the very first version that players got to use, going back to the first Beta pre-launch, were melee-controllers. Look at the secondary effects to their attack powers, many had some form of control attached to them compared to the only other melee AT which. Only Martial Arts came close and at the time, MA was one of the lower performing Scrapper sets.
Going forward, Taunt was made aoe, guantlet was added, Tankers even had their base melee damage modifier increased - all in an effort to keep their threat generation up.
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| I am currently being extremely well behaved for me, as others have observed. I'm doing this so Tankers get the dev attention they deserve. But if you chose to make me a "problem", I can become one; and people will testify I can be a very disruptive, very annoying, very persistent problem indeed. |
The only thing you succeed in doing that is ending up on more people's ignor list. I highly doubt anyone is scared of you losing your mind and going off on the forums because you became "uncivil". So not impressed.
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Actually, I expressed this concern when scrapper criticals were added and when scrapper damage modifiers were increased. In fact, I specifically challenged Statesman to explain how he could increase Scrapper damage *modifiers* and Blaster damage *caps* and claim both were similar increases in damage. Particularly when Blaster damage caps were only being increased to *equal* Scrappers, while Scrapper damage modifiers were being increased to *exceed* Blasters.|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
I'm curious as to why you guys weren't all making this much fuss about the poor blaster when the Scrapper was doing his job. Could it be that this 'muddying' has been going on since Day 1 and isn't any kind of a big deal?
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And anyone who so much as mentions the Scrapper ranged damage modifier as if it actually exists is getting Tommy Lee Jonesed.
In fact, if there's one thing Tankers, Controllers, Dominators, Stalkers, Masterminds, Defenders, Scrappers, Brutes, Corruptors, Peacebringers, Warshades, Widows, and Soldiers of Arachnos all agree on, its that all of them should do a lot of damage even though doing damage is the only thing Blasters are specifically designed to do. Blasters actually do not have the highest ranged damage modifer (Scrappers do because they use their melee modifier and have crits), they do not have the highest melee modifier (third behind Scrappers and Dominators), do not have the widest set of self damage buff powers (most of them Blasters don't get, including the most powerful of them: Fiery Embrace, Rage, Power Siphon, Follow Up), do not average more AoEs, do not average higher DPA - and they are the damage archetype.
Most blasters stopped bothering to complain about this years ago, but mostly out of a sense of futility, not because this hasn't been a perennial issue.
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To be fair and in Statesman's defense he originally saw Blasters as the minion killers and Scrappers as the boss killers.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, I expressed this concern when scrapper criticals were added and when scrapper damage modifiers were increased. In fact, I specifically challenged Statesman to explain how he could increase Scrapper damage *modifiers* and Blaster damage *caps* and claim both were similar increases in damage. Particularly when Blaster damage caps were only being increased to *equal* Scrappers, while Scrapper damage modifiers were being increased to *exceed* Blasters.
And anyone who so much as mentions the Scrapper ranged damage modifier as if it actually exists is getting Tommy Lee Jonesed. In fact, if there's one thing Tankers, Controllers, Dominators, Stalkers, Masterminds, Defenders, Scrappers, Brutes, Corruptors, Peacebringers, Warshades, Widows, and Soldiers of Arachnos all agree on, its that all of them should do a lot of damage even though doing damage is the only thing Blasters are specifically designed to do. Blasters actually do not have the highest ranged damage modifer (Scrappers do because they use their melee modifier and have crits), they do not have the highest melee modifier (third behind Scrappers and Dominators), do not have the widest set of self damage buff powers (most of them Blasters don't get, including the most powerful of them: Fiery Embrace, Rage, Power Siphon, Follow Up), do not average more AoEs, do not average higher DPA - and they are the damage archetype. Most blasters stopped bothering to complain about this years ago, but mostly out of a sense of futility, not because this hasn't been a perennial issue. |
He intended Scrappers to be more single target focused and to target the bosses (And thats why they would have higher crit chance on them) and Blasters to have much more AOE and burn down a spawn of minions.
Also to add back then the only exotic damage Scrappers had was Dark Melee for Negative Energy damage. Blasters had nearly all exotic damage with the exception of Assault Rifles but that has some fire damage.
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In this specific circumstance, that would not be relevant. Its also inaccurate: although he sold Scrappers team role as being the "boss killer" he never specifically sold Blasters as minion killers to a higher degree than anything else. If you're not the boss killer, obviously you're a minion and LT killer. That goes for everything. |
Originally Posted by Ultimus
To be fair and in Statesman's defense he originally saw Blasters as the minion killers and Scrappers as the boss killers.
He intended Scrappers to be more single target focused and to target the bosses (And thats why they would have higher crit chance on them) and Blasters to have much more AOE and burn down a spawn of minions. |
If he had tried to sell blasters specifically as the non-boss killers, two things would have come up. First: not all blasters had appreciable AoE at the time (Ice and Electric in particular, Ice Storm notwithstanding). Second, you actually need more passive mitigation to take on large numbers of minions rather than a single boss, because a single target can be neutralized by single target soft control and single target mez, which blasters had access to to a far higher degree than AoE controls. In fact, the entire existence of Blappers is predicated on this fact: that while Bosses in general are more dangerous than a significant number of minions, a blapper can neutralize a single boss easier than a conventional blaster can neutralize a lot of minions.
It is more precise to say that Statesmen felt that Blasters were not designed to take on Bosses** which means their job was to find something else to kill. However, Scrappers, Tankers, and Controllers were all designed *explicitly* to take on Bosses: Tankers were always designed to tank them (and there's no question they always had enough damage to defeat them), Scrappers were given criticals that scaled with rank specifically to give them an advantage against Bosses, and Controllers were always designed to be able to control bosses. Only Blasters and Defenders (of the original archetypes) were explicitly designed not to take on bosses themselves.
The notion that Blasters were intended to have a lot of AoE and be minion-mowers was an invention of the playerbase, based on very shaky logic, never to my knowledge confirmed by any dev. If it was, I and many other blaster players would have been demanding the AoE necessary to make that a reality.
** Vis a vis the "Boss buff" circa I5
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Correct.
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Originally Posted by Tannim222
Is that suppossed to be some type of threat? That if we don't stop disagreeing with you, by stating the inconvenient truth you don't want to admit to, that you'll basically put on a forum tirade that's the equivilant of an internet tantrum?
The only thing you succeed in doing that is ending up on more people's ignor list. I highly doubt anyone is scared of you losing your mind and going off on the forums because you became "uncivil". So not impressed. |
When I play tanks I see my role as being several things
1) Taking the Alpha Strike. No mattter what Tank I am playing my role is to get the foes we are facing to bring the heat to me because I am best suited to take it and survive it
2) Keeping the heat on me. After that inital attack as my teammates engage it is imperative that I work to try and keep the foes attention on me as best as possible. That is with a combination of taunts and gauntlet and attacks
3) Positioning the team for battle and response. Sometimes it is necessary to move the foes into an area, around a corner, or bottleneck them so they are easier to defeat and less foes peel off to attack others.
4) Push the pace of the team and achieve the objective at hand. Gauge the teams ability. How did we handle that last mob? Can we push a little faster or do we need a slower more deliberate pace
5) Protect the squishies. When playing a tank I am always surveying the battlefield.. What is the most dangerous, WHO is in the most danger, where is that threat coming from? I always leave the team window open so I can make sure to pull a foe off a squishie if need be
6) Fight or Flight? is this getting a little to sticky in here.. do some guys need to run and back off?
7) Defeat foes. I have more than Taunt and Gauntlet. I have attacks and abilities that help me to assist the team in taking does foes.
8) Last Man Standing.. I am the wall. if you want my team.. you are going to have to get through me... If my team escapes and leaves me to fight alone. so be it.. that is the path I have chosen.. and I will do it every single time.. because my team needs me.. and I need them..
9) Control the battle field. This will vary from tank to tank. Some do it better than others and some do it differently. All will use taunt and gauntlet to position foes. However some will use their unique abilities to control the battlefield
Icebreaker my shield/ice tank will make liberal use of his ice slick to cause foes to slip and fall around him
Sandstone my Dark/Stone tank ( dark is colored to look like sand) will use fault and opressive gloom to stun the heck out of foes repeatedly.
and there are many other options as well..
but thats how I see being a tank and what my role is.
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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Not to mention every level 50 can now get a penalty-free Nova power. It also recharges faster.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In fact, if there's one thing Tankers, Controllers, Dominators, Stalkers, Masterminds, Defenders, Scrappers, Brutes, Corruptors, Peacebringers, Warshades, Widows, and Soldiers of Arachnos all agree on, its that all of them should do a lot of damage even though doing damage is the only thing Blasters are specifically designed to do. Blasters actually do not have the highest ranged damage modifer (Scrappers do because they use their melee modifier and have crits), they do not have the highest melee modifier (third behind Scrappers and Dominators), do not have the widest set of self damage buff powers (most of them Blasters don't get, including the most powerful of them: Fiery Embrace, Rage, Power Siphon, Follow Up), do not average more AoEs, do not average higher DPA - and they are the damage archetype.
Most blasters stopped bothering to complain about this years ago, but mostly out of a sense of futility, not because this hasn't been a perennial issue. |
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At the risk of having TLJs ugly face looking at me like a underfed bassett.... Scrappers use their melee modifier on their ranged attacks? all of them, or just from their primaries? Tell. Me. Moah.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
And anyone who so much as mentions the Scrapper ranged damage modifier as if it actually exists is getting Tommy Lee Jonesed.
Blasters actually do not have the highest ranged damage modifer (Scrappers do because they use their melee modifier and have crits). |
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All scrapper powers that attack at range are made using the scrapper's melee modifier, because their ranged modifier sucks *** because they didn't want people using scrappers at range, and any time they wanted to give scrappers a ranged attack, they wanted it to be a good one that scrappers would be willing to use. It's a testament to the left hand not knowing what the left hand is doing.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
At the risk of having TLJs ugly face looking at me like a underfed bassett.... Scrappers use their melee modifier on their ranged attacks? all of them, or just from their primaries? Tell. Me. Moah.
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Is that just scrapper primaries, or do the epic pools / incarnate powers get the melee modifier also?
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As far as I know, *no* melee archetype attack uses the ranged modifier. Not just scrapper primaries. Shield charge essentially uses melee modifiers. Laser Beam Eyes uses the melee modifiers. Stalker snipes use the melee modifier.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Is that just scrapper primaries, or do the epic pools / incarnate powers get the melee modifier also?
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While I'm on the subject, Energy Blast's snipe deals about 173 base damage, Stalker snipe about 128. Except stalker snipes crit, and is it even remotely likely that a stalker will be using a snipe in a situation where it won't crit? If I asked for blaster snipes to deal 400 base damage, people would think I was crazy. But I am talking about the archetype that is supposed to be the best at dealing damage.
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Thx Arcanaville. Back to your regularly scheduled Tanker discussion. I am off to create the Tank Mage idea I shelved 3 weeks ago!
Darkness mastery night fall and I believe also tenebrous tentacles use the scrapper ranged modifier. As a consequence of this, they do not do damage.
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The only thing anyone has 'shown' is that some people can't stand Brutes getting any aggro. Newsflash: they're there to share aggro with Tankers. They're listed in the Tank AT category too. Deal.|
Originally Posted by Tannim222
It's not that's why so many have shown that Tanker threat modifiers need to be changed
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Tankers should have no problem keeping aggro off the squishes when they properly use the tools they're given (ie Taunt). If they are having problems, I honestly think it comes down to a player's failings and not the AT's.
Tanking is already braindead easy in this game. For the vast, vast majority of situations an 8 player team faces, one Tanker is sufficient for the team's aggro needs. What more do you honestly want? To herd 50 enemies at a time? A whole map? Hopefully the developers are smart enough not to allow those days to return.
I've seen ZERO complains from squishies that Tankers aren't good enough at keeping aggro off them. I've been on these forums for almost five years at this point, and the most complains I've ever seen about Tanker aggro has only been in the past couple weeks. Last year it was fine, all of a sudden, it's a major problem.
The fact is, I think people are grasping. The idea that the devs were 'looking into' Tankers has got people looking for things to improve when there's no need to improve those things.
They're already nigh unkillable, suggesting better damage is heresy, so they default to aggro and threat and look for problems that aren't really there.
Tankers are already amazing at protecting the team and managing aggro. They are. If Tankers truly need a boost, wouldn't the logical thing be helping them in an area they don't do so well in? Stalkers hide better than anyone else. They've got stealth sewn up about as well as Tankers have got a handle on aggro. It was determined Stalkers needed buffing to stay competitive with Scrappers, but the devs are not doing it by making them even more stealthy. While that would further differentiate them from Scrappers, it wouldn't really help them, nor do they really need more stealth; that's not why they run into problems.
Pushing for better aggro control for Tankers when they already control aggro extremely well just because it's something that won't step on Brute toes and is something Brutes don't really care about is, well, silly in my opinion.
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[QUOTE=Johnny_Butane;4043785]The only thing anyone has 'shown' is that some people can't stand Brutes getting any aggro. Newsflash: they're there to share aggro with Tankers. They're listed in the Tank AT category too. Deal.[quote]
So do Kheldians and Warshades, but they don't present those problems. And I've witnessed problems with Tankers suddenly losing aggro of key mobs. Like cone weilding attacks that suddenly get redirected and end up nailing the squishies. Or pull attempts gone very, very awry. It happens. And it's not necessarily sharing aggro that is the problem.
What you can't deal with is the fact that Tanker's defined role is that of a melee-controller by using aggro control and survivability as a soft control. DEAL 
It's what defines Tankers in this game. YOU may not like it, but that's the way its been since before i1.
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I completely disagree. You're premise is that the answer that Tankers don't do well enough in is melee damage. They do fine melee damage. Just not what you want them to do. One could build an argument that Tankers don't offer enough control methods just as much if not more than you want damage. Or buffs. Maybe Tanker attacks should provide a team only +heal effect once a Target is hit | Tankers are already amazing at protecting the team and managing aggro. They are. If Tankers truly need a boost, wouldn't the logical thing be helping them in an area they don't do so well in? |
What's really happened is that Tankers should provide a unique play experience that is different from Scrappers and Brutes. Right now, that experience is in aggro control. They should be the best at it, but aren't. It's as if Controllers didn't affect mobs as well as Defenders because Defender mag strength on status effects were initially made higher and never adjusted.
[quote]Stalkers hide better than anyone else. They've got stealth sewn up about as well as Tankers have got a handle on aggro. It was determined Stalkers needed buffing to stay competitive with Scrappers, but the devs are not doing it by making them even more stealthy. While that would further differentiate them from Scrappers, it wouldn't really help them, nor do they really need more stealth; that's not why they run into problems.[quote]
It has nothing to do with competiveness with Scrappers. Try playing a Stalker in a team. Stealthing to a single target to take it out may work in small teams, but the larger they get, the harder that is. Try standing in that long AS animation when everyone else starts AoE'ing, pulling, or defeating your target so that it's either interupted or the mob is dead before it goes off.
Stalkers were meant to hide in order to provide burst damage. It just doesn't work well with teams. So, finally that some new tech is availabe, its being tested out with Stalkers in the hopes that they'll finally have a particular team role, which is burst damage.
Which in case you don't understand, giving them a niche.
I think, for the purposes of this disscussion, it is worthy to note where
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actually come from.|
Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
These two quotes.
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I'll reporduce them here:
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The Tanker is an irresistible force combined with an immovable object. This Archetype can take and dish out all sorts of damage. The Tanker is not totally invulnerable, but his skills allow the other Archetypes to play their parts, too. The Tanker is a devastating hand to hand combatant, and ranks second only to the Scrapper in sheer melee power. He possesses some ranged abilities, though far below those of the Blaster or the Defender. Tankers proudly stand in the front lines of battle in order to protect their comrades and, of course, the innocent. |
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| The Tanker can take it and dish it out all at once. The Tanker primarily can absorb vast amounts of damage, and hold his own in a fist fight. But the Tanker lacks any long range punch. The Tanker would prefer just to charge straight ahead anyway. |
I would also like to point out that they do somewhat contradict themselves. "...devastating hand to hand combatant..." does not equate too "... hold his own in a fist fight".
(Personaly I prefer the 'newer' role description myself.)
Some "discussion".
That's only 'being productive' in silencing the opinions and inconvenient truths you don't want to hear.
How about this:
It's X-mas time, I have valid points whether you like it or not. Other people's desires for the AT are just as important as yours, regardless of who's is more popular currently. Let's all be part of a solution that doesn't ignore everyone who's opinion differs from yours.
So no, I will not just roll over and agree with you just to "be productive". I am currently being extremely well behaved for me, as others have observed. I'm doing this so Tankers get the dev attention they deserve. But if you chose to make me a "problem", I can become one; and people will testify I can be a very disruptive, very annoying, very persistent problem indeed.
.