What is the Role of a Tanker

Good morning, all.

I wanted to start this thread in conjunction with the Consolidated Tanker. Basically, I think that throwing out a ton of ideas at the Devs will help them to figure out what we're looking for. But I think that having an open and honest discussion about what we, the players, feel is the actual role in this game of what we think that Tankers are, and what we want them to be, will help them as well.

I think that most of the discussion I see posted about new ideas are that it doesn't fulfill the tole of the Tank in the eyes of the commenter. This is problematic for a number of reasons, but mostly because I think that even amongst mainly Tanker players, we have different ideas of what a Tanker should be.

So, while the other thread is looking at specific ideas that people want done for Tankers, this thread will be more of a general discussion. What do people feel is the role of a Tanker in the level 1-49 content? In the 50+ content? Does it change? What about on a buff-saturated team? Solo? On Trials and i-Trials? All of these are up for discussion. Also, I think it would be useful for the Devs to know what we think the Tanker's role SHOULD be. I know that this will open up a lot of discussion, but I think it's one that the Devs need to see if they're going to be looking at Tankers soon. If we throw out 1,000 ideas, and they choose the ones that the players feel take Tankers away from the role that we feel they should have, nobody is going to be happy.

MOAR DAMAGE is the wrong response.

MOAR DAMAG-

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneFrigidWitch MOAR DAMAGE is the wrong response.

...Awwww....

As for the Tanker's Role in-game, I'd say its the same one as it's always been. Get beat on by mobs and laugh at them while keeping their team alive. Same role they've got from level 1 to 50+. Beyond that, they can pull mobs and do extra aggro management with Taunt, and some manage respectable melee damage (mainly with /Fire or /SS).

The only major difference I can see is a buff-saturated team, but by then the Tank is an unkillable god amongst squishier gods (and probably has a better damage bonus as well) so instead of focusing on aggro could just go all out and beat the Hell out of stuff. Tanks can Smash too, it just usually takes a bit longer.

Redirecting damage is my first response which doesn't actually mean taking it, defense sets wouldn't be tanks for a start if that was the rule.

Grouping mobs for AoEs, all types of AoEs, damage aoes save on endurance, debuff aoes, save on time and endurance, holy moley we are supposed to make teams a bit more efficient and safer even with our lacking damage.

There is a common core of abilities that all Tanks have, it's from them, you get the basic fundamental idea of what a Tanker should be doing.

I personally will on any type of tank make it my goal to tank anything for any team make up. Then do it with a brute or scrapper or maybe in reverse order. Not fussed.

I am trying to remember the quote "First to fight, First to fall, Never Fall..." I saw this on Dechs Kaisons website.

I have played video games before CoH. Shocking I know. So, I knew what I was looking for when I rolled my first Hero almost 5 years ago. A big ol' Tank. And I was wrong. Ever been wrong? Happened to me.

Because back then I did not understand the city, or this strange archtype at all. In every game I have played the big guy has tons of armor, and either does slightly less damage, slightly slower damage, or can only fight melee, or some other penalty to make up for being the toughest. That guy is the Brute, or a well built Scrapper in the city. The Tanker archtype is just different. The more I look at it, the more I like it.

To me the Tanker is a Controller or Dominator, with only one trick, Agro. Then the designers made it so the Tank is best suited to using that Agro trick, and they did a very good job. It seems a lot of folks wants to take the Tanker base and make a better Brute, or Scrapper, or Tank Mage. But that is not what the Tanker is. The Tank is there to be the general of the battle. In a weird way (and slightly condescending, sorry) you can equate a Tank to a MM. The tank needs all his friends out there killing. But the Tank has to decide which mob to engage, whether to pull, herd, or steamroll. The Tank is responsible for keeping all his pets up.

It is my hope that the Devs will not change the archtype. I would love to see it so any changes they make actually just make the Tank tougher, especially for the new stuff in the game, (Super Stunners, Auto-hit Death patches, late game and Incarnate Trial stuff that whistles through Tank armor like it was toilet paper) Also, I would love to see a (slight) increase in the Agro Cap, and based on what I have seen in the city a (slight) increase in Tank threat level.

Tanks are NOT damage-doers.
Tanks are combat control experts.
If it's an enemy he aggros it.
If it's wandering lose, he taunts it in.
If it's in a lousy spot he moves it.
If he's lucky, he'll die young in the center of his teammates AoEs and get used as a corpse bomb, for that is the closest he'll ever get to being a damage doer.
Hell! I don't know why any man would want to be a tanker!

Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.

There are at least 5 areas to consider

1. Solo
2. Small team (2-4)
3. Large team (5-8)
4. League
5. PvP

A) the first one into a fight to take the alpha strike and just shrug it off
B) the last one out of the mission.

As a tank, I'll gadly let Romulus or Reichman pummel me (*) so that he leaves my teammates alone to do their own thing.



(*) it usually tickles...

Lets examine the Tanker's power sets. A personal defense set, and a melee damage set.

What does this tell me that Tankers are not?

-They're not supposed to be "paladins". Buffing/healing is not part of their forte.
-They're not "melee controllers" or anything like that. If they were, their secondary would be closer to a Blaster's secondary; a mix of attacks and crowd control.

What does this tell me Tankers are about?

-They are intended to be tough above all else. They are the only melee AT with their defensive set as their primary, and this cannot be denied. However, there is a caveat to this, which I will get back to.
-They absolutely were intended to deal damage. If they weren't, they wouldn't have been given a melee damage set at all, or they would have been given something closer to said Blaster secondary sets instead.


Let's next examine the image the developers try to cultivate with the written descriptions of the AT:

I don't like to see any AT pigeon-holed which is why I like the variety of Powersets we currently have. Want to lay out lots of opponents? Take Fire. Want to stand tough against any opponent? Take Stone. Want to slow everything down? Take Ice and so on.

Tankers SHOULD be able to, all else being equal, take more damage for a longer period than any other AT. I have no problem with them 'paying' for this with less damage output. I don't think this role should change with level although it might become less important at the Incarnate stage where there are so many AoEs flying around. (Standing next to the Tank when he's holding aggro for a 25' radius blast means he did his job and the people around him need to clear out a bit.)

The problem is that even if the ROLE of the Tank remains the same his level of necessity and effectiveness changes at times.

Solo: No worries with aggro...everyone focusses on YOU. Advancement should be about the same as other ATs since damage output is lower but downtime due to injury should be lower too. Might have trouble with fast-Regen foes due to low damage overall.

Small team (2-4): The Tank's bread and butter IMHO. Without a Tank, especially at low levels, the team might not have the moxy to put down/contain the enemy fast enough to be safe. Mobs that are spread out might become more dangerous. A Tank rounds up the enemy, takes the alpha strike, deals some damage and generally enables the rest of the team to do what they do but better.

Large team (5-8): Here is where a Tank might begin to feel a bit out of sorts, especially on a higher-level team. Without a lot of ranged attacks (normally 1) the Tank has to mix it up. If the team doesn't wait for him to get stuck in then he might reach the mob only to find them defeated. Note that ALL melee ATs might suffer from this but we're focussing on Tanks here. A good high-level team can often melt a mob while the Tank is moving up for his first hit.

League: Tanks come back into their own a bit here since most Leagues face tougher opponents that they can't melt with their first attack. It's up to the Tank to keep attention from his squishier friends. Problem is, with the high-end damage being thrown around holding aggro can be tough.

PvP: I don't PvP.


As I see it other ATs are finding it more and more possible to eclipse the Tank but the same does not work the other way. 8 Defenders can daisy-chain buff each other until they're truly obscene and a Tank become unnecessary. 8 Controllers can lock down mobs so fast they never take any damage. However 8 Tanks can't use the same trick to increase their damage or buff each other.

This why I feel that Tanks should be able to stack their abilities somehow...so they can gain some sort of benefit. Either allow them to stack Bruising with each other or something. Otherwise after the first Tank the rest will seem redundant.

The Role of the Tanker is too Hold Aggro, To play one Get taunt and a Taunt Aura like Rise of the Challenge.

You goal like any other Tank class in other MMo is to hold Aggro and protect the team form Harm, if you can't do that right, get some tips form other players.

My Wp/SS Tanker For Example is Super Ratz, he could hold Aggro well, If you on a Team with him, he will save you Butt. I would go into a Mob, Taunt the Enemies and pull them off any other team mates.

A Good Buffer or Emp can help you out, they like a Tanker best friend at time, not always needed, Focus-less on Damage and more on your Toggles and Defense Skill more then you skills for damage.

They can Handle most farms well and can hold aggro againest any AV and Eb in this game, you best bet for the best outcome is Willpower, Invulnerability and Stone.


If Some how explain this wrong here a link to help you understand better http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Tankers and another Tanker Strategy page http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Tanker_Strategy

Now if you still want to change how to play them then forget about it, they been this way since issue 0 and they won't fix things that are not needed to be fix.

A melee controller. Aggro is a kind of control - YOU decide who the mob will be beating on and make sure that it will be the member of the group least effective to be beating on.

Most sets include control tools. Yes they are with the same effectiveness as the Brute's and Scrapper's, which is wrong, but in any case, the tanker has more incentive to focus on applying status effects. It meshes well with the aggro controller because first you make them want to hit you, then you make them suck at it or completely unable to.

The way to make tankers more distinct is to improve control tools. This archtype should have longer duration, higher % to proc and perhaps higher mag status effects in the secondary than the Brutes and Scrappers primary sets.

I like the idea of longer duration controls.

I find Tanker damage to be OK as it is now that most sets have a heavy hitter. Between that, bruising and inherent Stamina you can solo out of the gate without gasping for air after the first spawn.

My solo "role" on my Electric/MA tanker has been to fight large hordes at lower difficulty, say +0/x4 (instead of +2/x1 on my Stalker) and let Lightning Field and my survivability do much of the work. Combat is slow and epic rather than fast and decisive.

On teams its been aggro magnet, herder and pace-setter. I made a tank again to be able to set a good fast pace on teams I lead

Conceptually, Tankers are the team powerhouse- the heavy hitters who charge in first and take on the biggest threats. Superman is a good example, and the comparison was pretty much encouraged when the added Laser Beam Eyes. The part that some people have a hard time wrapping their head around is that, for the purpose of game balance, some of that power is represented as "threat" rather than straight damage. The reason being, if you could play a full-powered Superman, who would play Green Arrow?

What's interesting is that Tankers as they currently exist are a player-driven creation. Originally, Tankers were Melee Controllers- as in actual control, not aggro. The devs thought we would use knockback and stuns to mitigate damage, but players ignored or complained about those powers, took Provoke from the Presence Pool, and played as aggro magnets. (Fire was especially popular because what it lacked in controls it made up for with damage.) So Gauntlet and taunt auras were added, Taunt made AoE, defenses shored up, and Tankers were aggro managers.

Tankers are a support class, we absorb aggro for the team. As opposed to Brutes, who absorb it for themselves (the fact that it helps the team is a nice bonus.) I don't think we need all the aggro, leave some for the Brutes, other Tanks, and to keep teammates on their toes (we shouldn't completely remove all challenge). It's a pretty easy, straight-forward playstyle- charge in! That's what you were going to do anyway, right?

Tankers still solo very well, they can level fast by upping their difficulty and taking on lots of enemies (once you have your AoE powers.) Tankers are Easy Mode.

Roles are things that players make up and decide they want to fill, not things that are set in game mechanics. The role of a Tanker is whatever the player decides it to be.