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Any player can choose to attempt to fulfill any role they want on any team they want. The developers are not required to provide you with the tools necessary to accomplish that.|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
Roles are things that players make up and decide they want to fill, not things that are set in game mechanics. The role of a Tanker is whatever the player decides it to be.
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Like it or not, every archetype and for that matter every powerset has an intended role or function. The players can choose to ignore that and forge their own as best they can, and the game won't stop them. But there's no way to know if you've given something the right set of tools without having an intent for what those tools are supposed to be able to do. There's no such thing as "intent-less" design.
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Complaining on the forums about feeling less of a man.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
So, while the other thread is looking at specific ideas that people want done for Tankers, this thread will be more of a general discussion. What do people feel is the role of a Tanker in the level 1-49 content?
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Except, I have it on fairly good authority, he was closer to Captain America (sans Shield) before he was added to the game and mutated.|
Originally Posted by Chyll
But, he sure seems like basic "I want to be Superman" wish fulfillment if I ever saw it.
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He was merely a mercenary treasure hunter who 'unlocked the power of inner will' and returned from the East a changed man. From what I heard, he was more of a "pulpy" mystery man when Jack actually played him.
The whole incarnation of Zeus came later, and a good portion of what we have as the "modern Statesman" and his backstory came from the novels, which Emmert didn't write.
Now, maybe the mutation was something Jack pushed for, or they simply needed an archetypal Big Good (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigGood) to be the poster boy for the game. The point is, the Statesman we know today was heavily influenced by outside forces long after Jack created him as a PnP character.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
But I think that having an open and honest discussion about what we, the players, feel is the actual role in this game of what we think that Tankers are, and what we want them to be, will help them as well.
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Originally Posted by Paragonwiki Tanker Description
The Tanker can take it and dish it out all at once. The Tanker primarily can absorb vast amounts of damage, and hold his own in a fist fight. But the Tanker lacks any long range punch. The Tanker would prefer just to charge straight ahead anyway.
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Originally Posted by Official City of Heroes Tanker Description
The Tanker is an irresistible force combined with an immovable object. This Archetype can take and dish out all sorts of damage.
The Tanker is not totally invulnerable, but his skills allow the other Archetypes to play their parts, too. The Tanker is a devastating hand to hand combatant, and ranks second only to the Scrapper in sheer melee power. He possesses some ranged abilities, though far below those of the Blaster or the Defender. Tankers proudly stand in the front lines of battle in order to protect their comrades and, of course, the innocent. |
"The Tanker can take it and dish it out all at once. The Tanker primarily can absorb vast amounts of damage, and hold his own in a fist fight. Proudly standing in the front lines of battle in order to protect their comrades and, of course, the innocent."
In my opinion this is what the Tanker ultimately is and his primary role in CoH. With the inclusion of hero Brutes as teammates in Paragon City, the waters are now muddy. The problems we are seeing now where not prevalent when these two were not able to team together as they are now, day after day after day. Aett_Thorn showed me the numbers between a Tanker & Brute in generating aggro alone and it is staggering. This in my opinion is why Tanker enthusiast questions the primary role and abilities of a Tanker.
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
Regarding iTrials: I recognize that the devs are trying to 1) challenge teams and 2) make us think outside whatever boxes we've become accustomed to. But still, the various "instant death" mechanics added to the iTrials, while frustrating for all ATs, seem to especially impact Tankers. At least my own character concepts are predicated on my Tankers being tough and hardy, not on their ability to notice a flashing circle amid the dazzle of everyone's combat effects.
Simply exempting Tankers from all the "instant death" mechanics in the iTrials would be a start.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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You know, the more I hear of this trial the less I am incline to ever participate in it with any one of my melee ATs. What use is it for a tanker, brute, or scrapper to fight with what amounts to one arm tied behind their back? If one cannot use the entire arsenal of powers in a trial, said trial is nothing more than a type of AT segregation in rendering a tanker, et al, nearly useless, even with epic and incarnate powers.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Regarding iTrials: I recognize that the devs are trying to 1) challenge teams and 2) make us think outside whatever boxes we've become accustomed to. But still, the various "instant death" mechanics added to the iTrials, while frustrating for all ATs, seem to especially impact Tankers. At least my own character concepts are predicated on my Tankers being tough and hardy, not on their ability to notice a flashing circle amid the dazzle of everyone's combat effects.
Simply exempting Tankers from all the "instant death" mechanics in the iTrials would be a start. |
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
Regarding iTrials: I recognize that the devs are trying to 1) challenge teams and 2) make us think outside whatever boxes we've become accustomed to. But still, the various "instant death" mechanics added to the iTrials, while frustrating for all ATs, seem to especially impact Tankers. At least my own character concepts are predicated on my Tankers being tough and hardy, not on their ability to notice a flashing circle amid the dazzle of everyone's combat effects.
Simply exempting Tankers from all the "instant death" mechanics in the iTrials would be a start. |
As an aside, I can say from experience from running multiple ATs and powersets through the various trials that it is on Electric Armor tanks where I have had the most survivability.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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Essentially the newer incarnate trials are "If you don't have the "right" types of characters and the "proper" Incarnate power choices you fail. And everything's "unresistable".|
Originally Posted by Sailboat
Regarding iTrials: I recognize that the devs are trying to 1) challenge teams and 2) make us think outside whatever boxes we've become accustomed to. But still, the various "instant death" mechanics added to the iTrials, while frustrating for all ATs, seem to especially impact Tankers. At least my own character concepts are predicated on my Tankers being tough and hardy, not on their ability to notice a flashing circle amid the dazzle of everyone's combat effects.
Simply exempting Tankers from all the "instant death" mechanics in the iTrials would be a start. |
It's a friggin' joke.
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WT...well, that settles it for me. I will not bother doing the new ones until such time the developers go back and revamp their god like trial(s).
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Essentially the newer incarnate trials are "If you don't have the "right" types of characters and the "proper" Incarnate power choices you fail. And everything's "unresistable".
It's a friggin' joke. |
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
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You discarded half of the the description to reach your 'conclusion'. That's like quoting a book (actually more than one book) as proof of something and omitting every third word to skew the intent.|
Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
"The Tanker can take it and dish it out all at once. The Tanker primarily can absorb vast amounts of damage, and hold his own in a fist fight. Proudly standing in the front lines of battle in order to protect their comrades and, of course, the innocent."
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"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary...to bear arms...in the name of...persecution...and we must be always vigilant against..amber waves of grain."
You didn't just 'word them differently', you tossed out the parts you didn't like. I call foul.
Even I acknowledged the parts of the description that don't particularly help my position.
The description speaks just as much of Tanker offense as it does their defense and aggro-ness.
"take it and dish it out all at once."
"irresistible force"
"dish out all sorts of damage"
"The Tanker is a devastating hand to hand combatant"
The above should not be ignored or glossed over if we truly want an unbiased discussion of the Tanker's intended role and wish to cite the AT descriptions.
Inconvenient as they are some some people to accept, these phrases were used.
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Whoever that Tank might be he is definitely too slow.
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Originally Posted by Comicsluvr
Large team (5-8): Here is where a Tank might begin to feel a bit out of sorts, especially on a higher-level team. Without a lot of ranged attacks (normally 1) the Tank has to mix it up. If the team doesn't wait for him to get stuck in then he might reach the mob only to find them defeated. Note that ALL melee ATs might suffer from this but we're focussing on Tanks here. A good high-level team can often melt a mob while the Tank is moving up for his first hit.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I'm just glad they removed Tank form Melee Damage in character creation. Now if they would just stop putting Blaster as "Ranged" You ever try to make a pure ranged Blaster? (stops...steps back from the edge.......) Okay, whatever, sorry.
A Tank's role is to protect his team. That's it. I'm not getting into the debate of how much that role is worth today or how much better a Tank does it than a Brute. If you ask what the Tank's role is, that's it. A Tank's role is to protect his team.
Johnny, the tank's other role used to be melee damage and the lines you're emphasizing were true when Scrappers were the only other melee combatants. It's not true any more because brutes and stalkers both hit much harder than tanks. Yes, they should update the description.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Johnny, what you want is to play a Brute.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
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So just stop beating that poor, abused equine skeleton and go play a brute.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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So you admit that one of the Tanker's intended roles was being a heavy hitter and 'devastating hand to hand combatant'.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Johnny, the tank's other role used to be melee damage and the lines you're emphasizing were true when Scrappers were the only other melee combatants. It's not true any more because brutes and stalkers both hit much harder than tanks.
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You said it:
"Johnny, the tank's other role used to be melee damage and the lines you're emphasizing were true"
So answer me this question:
Why is it wrong to improve Tanker offense because it might "crowd" the Brute out of one of its roles, but it's OK that Brutes came into the picture and pushed the Tanker out of one of their roles?
Double standard much?
IMO, the Tanker was the one wronged first, by Brutes getting Fury, a mechanic originally developed and pitched for Tankers so they could better fulfill their description and the original 'spirit' of the AT and they were again wronged when Brutes came blue side and became direct competition for both aggro and damage.
Pushing Tankers further into an overspecialized niche doesn't fix what happened or right those wrongs and it doesn't do anything for the people who do care that Tankers were/are supposed to be more than aggro monkeys and do care that Brutes stole half of their role in show.
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Yes, but only when compared to things like defenders, controllers, and blasters.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
So you admit that one of the Tanker's intended roles was being a heavy hitter and 'devastating hand to hand combatant'.
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Once brutes and stalkers came along, the tanker was just as devastating as he was before, just with more people that were better than him.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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And.... *shrug*.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane;4041663
Pushing Tankers further into an overspecialized niche doesn't fix what happened or right those wrongs and it doesn't do anything for the people who [i do[/i] care that Tankers were/are supposed to be more than aggro monkeys and do care that Brutes stole half of their role in show.
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So let's let them revel in what they can do uniquely and better instead of making yet another punch monkey.
City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
I don't particularly have anything groundbreaking to add about tanking, but here are my thoughts.
1) Own important aggro. That minion council going pew-pew from afar? Let him pew-pew. That boss warwolf? I need his full attention.
This particular point can be a source of frustration at times. Outside of another tank, I'd like for no one else to be able to compete for aggro. It seems like I have to spam taunt when a /SD scrapper is around and that's after 2-3 taunts to get aggro. Even the last time I tanked I noticed a squishy (don't remember what) that required 2-3 taunts to peel aggro from.
2) Mob placement. Bunch 'em up for aoes. Not much has changed in this regard from before I even started playing.
3) Contribute to enemy defeats. This game is all about flexibility, not pigeonholing roles. The "sit in the back and heal" emp is met with scorn today, and righfully so. They're expected to use their secondary to full effect. The same is true for tanks. Personally I think tanks are at a decent place in this respect.
4) Know your team and what they can handle. See that fire/sd scrapper surrounded by 12 Cims? Do I taunt them to save her, or will doing so stretch the fight out longer since she could easily handle them? This is a bit more advanced and comes down to pugs vs people you already know. This isn't something the devs can work on though.
Overall, I think tanks are at a decent place. Truth be told, I don't like playing them much, but I do. I'd say my #1 request would be to more thoroughly own aggro.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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I disagree they were ever 'devastating'. The Tanker generally had inferior melee damage hit for hit than Blasters. I don't think they ever managed to be 'second only to Scrappers' for "sheer melee power" even when they were the only other 'melee AT'. Even now, the same melee attacks on a Dom hit harder even if you factor Bruising.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Once brutes and stalkers came along, the tanker was just as devastating as he was before, just with more people that were better than him.
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What if you just gave Tankers an ability that automatically debuffed the defense and resistance of the enemies that are focused on the Tanker. This would increase their damage in a round-about way, while simultaneously encouraging them to fulfill their intended role of holding the attention of as many things as possible. People on your team would actually go out of the way to make sure that the Tanker is tanking as much stuff as possible so that everyone can do moar damage AND the melee AT's don't have to be threatened with feelings of inferiority because the Tanker is actually *helping* them be more awesome, rather than encroaching upon their awesome.
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And they pay for that with reduced survivability.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I disagree they were ever 'devastating'. The Tanker generally had inferior melee damage hit for hit than Blasters. I don't think they ever managed to be 'second only to Scrappers' for "sheer melee power" even when they were the only other 'melee AT'. Even now, the same melee attacks on a Dom hit harder even if you factor Bruising.
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City of Heroes was my first MMO, & my favorite computer game.
R.I.P.
Chyll - Bydand - Violynce - Enyrgos - Rylle - Nephryte - Solyd - Fettyr - Hyposhock - Styrling - Beryllos - Rosyc
Horryd - Myriam - Dysquiet - Ghyr
Vanysh - Eldrytch
Inflyct - Mysron - Orphyn - Dysmay - Reapyr - - Wyldeman - Hydeous
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What I did was take the important points made in each quote and combined them into one mission statement. Nothing was modified to make it say something it is not. Every thing in my new statement says the exact same thing using 48 words, not in 142 words. Short, to the point, and no ambiguity to what the purpose of a tanker is. You can claim otherwise, but the truth is staring you in the face:|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
You discarded half of the the description to reach your 'conclusion'.
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"The Tanker can take it and dish it out all at once. The Tanker primarily can absorb vast amounts of damage, and hold his own in a fist fight. Proudly standing in the front lines of battle in order to protect their comrades and, of course, the innocent."
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
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Johnny you are absolutely right. Blasters (and Doms) do more melee damage. But this was the way the Devs and programmers set it up, and was balanced to how they wanted it. The guy (or gal) we all need to speak to is the person they had come in to write the descriptions. One course in creative writing and zero game experience were not the combo that needed to be brought to the table. personally, i still want a good talk with them about Blasters being "Ranged". As you just pointed out, a lot of their attacks are hard hitting melee attacks, and in my opinion Blasters as designed are in truth Blappers. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I disagree they were ever 'devastating'. The Tanker generally had inferior melee damage hit for hit than Blasters. I don't think they ever managed to be 'second only to Scrappers' for "sheer melee power" even when they were the only other 'melee AT'. Even now, the same melee attacks on a Dom hit harder even if you factor Bruising.
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But, just because some adjective slinging writer wrote something that doesnt match that got into the game does not make it a "contract written in blood" that must be honored by the Devs. Tanks were not an aggrieved party in a contractual agreement. They still operate (mostly) as designed. The game has moved on some, they have not aged well, and some tweaks are deserved.
Lets be productive. It X-mas time. As the character in one of my very favorite holiday movies says "...if you're not a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem..." So, let's all be part of the solution and advocate for the (minor) changes we can look forward to that will make it more enjoyable to be a Tank, rather than scream at the Devs to make Tanks better than Brutes 'cause they was here first.
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I can agree 100% with this statement. In order:|
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
Overall, I think tanks are at a decent place. Truth be told, I don't like playing them much, but I do. I'd say my #1 request would be to more thoroughly own aggro.
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Tanks are in a very decent place right now with regards to balance. They survive much better than any other AT. They deal enough damage to solo competently.
I play my Tank because I enjoy his character, his personality. More often than not, though, I don't enjoy his survivability or aggro capabilities. Surviving is often too easy and each of my Brute, Warshade, or hell, even my Bots/Traps can still hold the aggro just fine.
Likewise, my one request is that Tanks get an edge in holding aggro. Right now, Tanks are exactly equivalent to Brutes in threat generation with the exception of damage. If a Tank and a Brute with identical powersets/slotting are trying to gain the threat of one creature, the brute will always win because of his damage. This is the one thing I would seek to change. Tanks need a higher magnitude or better duration of taunt. I'd also like to see the Tank aggro cap increased by at least 50%. I have all this survivability; let it mean something. My role is to protect the team; let me do it better than everyone else.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
When teaming, just point me at whatever it is I need to pi$$ off, and let me stand toe to toe with it or them until it or them iz dead! If I'm soloing, let me bask in the glory of killing it slowly!