Really, devs? REALLY? AFK farming is ok?
You can buy sets in the store with real money now that do the same.
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So what again is the issue with PvP Sets exemping down? |
And the PvP IO set bonuses for PvE are not subjective compared to Purples. |
They are not as good as purple sets, if they were you would see higher prices for them than we do now. |
Or should I say "off the market"?
Incapable, really? |
And the last dev who really had any real interest in "fixing" it is now gone?
Why are you playing a game where you feel the current dev team, which is doing new and creative things IMO, is unable to accomplish this feat of balancing PvP? |
If you think the developers of the game you play suck so bad, you might want to move on in life. |
PvP players are notoriously some of the most high end build focused players in MMOs. |
That's the market segment that will spend any amount of INF, and any amount of real cash if you let them, to totally pimp their builds out. |
As for the profligate Inf spenders? These people are my bread and butter. I'm a marketeer.
So just so we are clear - those players, could be made to be very profitable. |
That's not wasted labor. |
PVE: If you catered to each of these 70,000 you could make $100 off each and make $7,000,000.
How's that going to work again?
Maybe you're just unable to see past your own bombastic negativity? |
However vanishingly small the likelihood of that is.
I ignored the rest of your post, because you don't seem to be able to have a discussion like a grown up. |
One of the reasons I need to be this blunt and forthright in the first place is because anything put forth with subtlety and tact is completely missed and misinterpreted.
Mainly because said individuals don't actually want a healthy dialog. They just want to be "right" and have their way.
c'est la vie
Why are you playing a game where you feel the current dev team, which is doing new and creative things IMO, is unable to accomplish this feat of balancing PvP? |
It's not a question of the limitation of the dev team. It's the limitation of the playstyle. It simply cannot ever be done absent everyone being a clone.
PvP in Chess works. PvP in [Insert Basically Every Online Game Ever Made] cannot.
And please spare me any stories about how Game X or Game Y made it work. Because they didn't, I promise you.
Great Wall of Prophecy, reveal to us God's will that we may blindly obey.
Free us from thought and responsibility
We shall read things off of you.
Then do them
Your words guide us.
We're dumb
A bit off topic, but can I use this system as a means to get my PvP Rep badges, I hate PvP and my server doesn't really do it, so would this system be a nice way around it?
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So, I read up how to run an AFK farm. I ran it for a few days, overnight of course.
When I had my shiny fusion doohickey, I started to dismantle the farm, and checked the recipes on my killer.
I had about...5 billion worth in there? FOR DOING NOTHING.
How does this equate to a reasonable risk vs reward in any way, shape or form?
Full Disclosure:
I do not dislike farming. When I'm in the mood for some carnage, I'll slaughter thousands for funsies, PL mah shiny new toons, and roll tix like a gambler in Vegas.
I am not poor. I market in a desultory fashion, and bank a hundred million or so most days.
I have anything in-game that I want. I have hero merits out the wazoo. I have several PVP IO's on toons, have more in storage, and have the resources to buy another half dozen or more anytime I want.
What I object to is this: All games generate rewards based upon risk versus reward. Hami-o's, for example, require you to complete a significant feat to gain. This is as it should be.
AFK PVP farming entails zero risk. It requires zero time at the keyboard. After you do the set up (which is not difficult) it requires zero effort. And it is by FAR the most profitable activity in the game.
PVP IO's should drop in iTrials, (as should Hami-O's), and should be accessible via other methods. (I leave it as an exercise to the reader exactly what methods should be available. I'd suggest they be gainable as new accolade rewards. IE, run all six phalanx tf's the first time, you get the shiny badge. Each time after that, you get a PVP IO.)
The merit prices for PVP's should be adjusted to be in-line with the Unique sets, and the Unique sets should be lowered in cost.
And AFK farming should be disabled. Because the risk versus reward of that activity is WAY out of whack with everything else in the game.
My two cents.
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
Technically, Mauk, the afk farmer runs the risk of being killed. I mean, he is in a pvp zone and there are only so many places to hide. If all the pvp zones simply had enough traffic, afk farms would die out.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Technically, Mauk, the afk farmer runs the risk of being killed. I mean, he is in a pvp zone and there are only so many places to hide. If all the pvp zones simply had enough traffic, afk farms would die out.
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But ganking an afk farmer costs him nothing but a nights production on one server. The next night, as he's logging off, he just sets up again. He's not even THERE, he doesn't CARE if you break up his farm for a few nights. Are you going to dedicate yourself to scourging the servers for these hacks? For how long? They'll just out-last you, as you would be exerting FAR more effort than they are.
And yes, if there was more pvp, the supply of IO's would increase. But it takes HOURS of PVP time to generate a drop. Do you grasp how much pvp play would be required to equal the IO throughput of a few hundred afk farmers?
Ah, I only meant that with enough traffic, afk farming would die because there should always be people pvping and stumbling on farms.
Of course, that would require pvp to be fun and attractive.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
The PvP in this game is a joke.
The farming of PvP IO's by AFK is a bigger joke. Istated MANY times that PvP and these IO's should be COMMKON. When I can buy the top level IO for 2 Hero merits and a single PvP IO is 32 - it shows you that someone does not understand marketing 101.
If you want something to be ENCOURAGED - charge less.
If you want someting to be RARE - charge more.
Fail again and again on PvP.
Because it is flat out impossible period without making the various sides of this PvP competition completely identical to one another.
It's not a question of the limitation of the dev team. It's the limitation of the playstyle. It simply cannot ever be done absent everyone being a clone. PvP in Chess works. PvP in [Insert Basically Every Online Game Ever Made] cannot. And please spare me any stories about how Game X or Game Y made it work. Because they didn't, I promise you. |
Let me rephrase this for my own thoughts on the issue.
As a player that loves rewards there is no way I'm going to PvP. |
I'm not sure if it was because my toons are pretty much drop bait for everyone else in zone or the terrible mechanics of PvP (talking about you defense/heal decay). Or maybe it was because in the time I was wasting my time PvPing I could have ran a Council Empire map farm 1.5 times.
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
Okay, I understand the reasoning behind MARTy.
The game is susceptible to buff stacking until it's broken. I get that. But the AFK PVP IO farming? That Is Utterly Egregious. (Look up the damn word if you have to.) People are making STUPID levels of rewards, WHILE THEY ARE ASLEEP. The most profitable way TO PLAY YOUR GAME, is to do it while you're sleeping. Really Dev's? Is this the play style you WANT to promote? DO SOMETHING. |
I'm the bane to your existence, the knightress for your hate, the conduit of you raw q.q moar asploding emotion.
Instead of asking the Devs to do something why don't you go PvP me.
How does this equate to a reasonable risk vs reward in any way, shape or form?
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How much "risk" is my "capped to all" tank/brute in when I plow through +0's for hours/days/weeks/months/years on end?
Maybe about the same as your AFK farmer was? Maybe slightly less? I didn't have to worry about some random PVPer coming across and the farm and usurping it by killing the "killer" toon and hijacking the ressurection toons.
What I object to is this: All games generate rewards based upon risk versus reward. Hami-o's, for example, require you to complete a significant feat to gain. This is as it should be. |
Nowadays, a Hami raid is about the time it takes to get a group together and kill enough monsters to spawn Hami then kill him. That's it.
Wow, yes Quake, Halflife, Soldier of Fortune 2, Battlefield, Counterstrike and more than I care to list did just that. I could sniper you for a headshot, grenade you, knife you, shotty you and so on - all had strengths and all had weaknesses.
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The same CANNOT be said for CoH.
You have 14 ATs.
Each of which has hundreds of combinations of Primary/Secondary/Ancillary/Epic pool choices
Further increased by hundreds (or possibly thousands) of permutations of power selection.
Further increased by power slotting and augmentation choices.
FURTHER increased by Incarnate level and power choices.
Not to mention the fact that PVP mechanics are vastly different than PVE mechanics and you essentially are learning a different game with an identical skin.
Not even a nice try man.
As far as the problems with PvP as whole goes, this is the last thing needed to be fixed on the list of things why PvP is terrible.
Again, no. Not anymore. It's time vs reward. Hami is a known quantity. Basically connect all the dots, ESPECIALLY on Incarnate toons, and victory is basically assured. Hell, have everyone get Warburg nukes (again, a time sink), and Hami goes away in 10 minutes.
Nowadays, a Hami raid is about the time it takes to get a group together and kill enough monsters to spawn Hami then kill him. That's it. |
We did a 10 man Hami raid on Victory (No nukes, Heavies etc), took about an 1 hour 15 minutes, in that same amount of time PvPing I wouldn't have gotten squat worthwhile.
I'd rather run Shard TFs back to back then PvP as the extremely rare chance for a drop AND the timer all but makes PvPing a waste of time, unless you're sleeping...
Who do I have to *&^% around here to get more Targeted AoE recipes added?
Arc Name: Tsoo In Love
Arc ID: 413575
I'd rather run Shard TFs back to back then PvP as the extremely rare chance for a drop AND the timer all but makes PvPing a waste of time, unless you're sleeping...
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Note the caveat: UNLESS you're sleeping.
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
Let's take Hyperstrike's assertion at face value: Time vs Reward.
Does the Time portion of that merely equate to time logged in? Or time actually spent participating in the the content?
Because an AFK farmer with eleven accounts, (like the giggle-monkey trolling upthread) can be effectively 'playing' for upwards of a hundred hours per day, according to the 'time versus rewards' metric.
Does that make any damn sense at all?
And to make this even MORE insane, the AFK farmer is piling up that hundred hours a day of EXTREMELY profitable activity with ZERO invested effort, no use of the provided content, and while paying the Dev's only one subscription fee. (Assuming I understand how this works, I am not an AFK farmer, so I might misunderstand the exact mechanics.)
I'm sorry, but in my view this is utterly unbalanced no matter how you slice it. YMMV.
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
I'm going to try and open up the conversation again, hopefully we can have a conversation instead of resorting to caps every other line.
The fact that the set bonuses carry down to some fairly low levels? Where as non-real-money IOs (save purples) don't.
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They have bonuses that scale down, like purples and they cost upwards of 50 to 70 emp merits per recipie at the Empyrean Store.
They can not be bought at the Astral store. The Developers have purposefully given them a rarity and a value equal to Purple sets.
On the market or spec-buying them with various merits?
Or should I say "off the market"? |
Most of them have on market values comparable to other sets (which would go down if their supply was comparable to those sets).
A few are more expensive, because they have nice bonuses in the right places, off the top of my head:
- Panaca for the 7.5 Rech (and there is no purple healing set to compete with)
- Shield Wall for the 2.25% HP bonus (and there is no purple DEF set to compete with)
Well, they've been fiddling with it for how long?
And the last dev who really had any real interest in "fixing" it is now gone? |
The goal would be to make a decent overhaul to improve the experience.
The Devs are there, and the thought is at least there.
My point was that you constantly take digs at the devs in this and many other threads, you often come off as ranting and railing against them (not honest, blunt or forthright like you seem to think).
Yup. And people have been screaming about "pay to win" already.
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My point was that is that freedom and the paragon market has as one of its goals the generation of revenue.
One of the ways it does this is by attracting new players and luring back former players, and providing value in the store for things they want.
PvP as an area is neglected and undeveloped. There is a base of MMO fans that enjoy PvP and I think there is potential there to cultivate this customer base, hopefully they will also spend money in the store while they are here.
[QUOTE=Hyperstrike;4038600]
Oh yeah. I'm sure. See where I talked about "pay to win"?
PVP: If you catered to each of these 300 people you could make $1000 off each and make $300,000!
PVE: If you catered to each of these 70,000 you could make $100 off each and make $7,000,000. |
More People interested in pvp could see more players total, adding to the 70k.
But you seem to have an adversarial position of PvP players vs. PvE players, rather than seeing them as they should be seen "Potential customers".
[QUOTE=Hyperstrike;4038600]
Maybe. I always have to admit it's a possibility.
However vanishingly small the likelihood of that is.
[QUOTE=Hyperstrike;4038600]
And thus, you've donned an even MORE narrow pair of blinkers.
One of the reasons I need to be this blunt and forthright in the first place is because anything put forth with subtlety and tact is completely missed and misinterpreted.
You don't come off as blunt and forthright.
You come off as bombastic, negative and with an unnecessary need to use caps lock.
Unless you mean you need to type this way, because you are describing your own failings at having a discussion and being able to get someone to see your points without putting them all in caps.
Mainly because said individuals don't actually want a healthy dialog. They just want to be "right" and have their way.
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You posted something, I disagree with it, and then you replied with a post full of caps, and some nonsense with Kevin Spacey.
If you really think this is me not wanting a healthy dialogue, you might want to review your way of presenting your ideas in posts.
Because if you can honestly tell me that post #41 is your idea of a healthy dialogue, and that you are simply being "blunt and forthright" than I think you are suffering from some kind of cognitive distortion.
Other MMOs have PvP that is relatively balanced. Its not impossible.
And what is to say they do not have sufficient numbers amongst themselves to keep the selling value exactly where it is? If you have 100 billion influence under your sleeve, you can buy anything you want and not care, so 90+% of the market refusing to buy isn't going to keep you from buying. Likewise, whatever asking price you set isn't producing income you absolutely have to have to afford something new so you can post for a price and let the item sit there for weeks and months until it sells.
It may not seem reasonable that people with lots of cash squander it, but its what I've been observing in the market on my server. Recipes you can go to the university and purchase for 12K are selling on my server for 300K. Why? The only thing I can think of is because some people have so much influence to spend it literally is worth it to them to not make the side trip to their base or the university to go ahead and be overcharged 2499% as opposed to taking the extra minute to get what they want for an appropriate price. With that type of money sloshing about and the number of people it must be to sustain such ludicrous prices I doubt a boycott would have much impact. Edit: For the record, I don't care one way or the other about AFK farming. It would seem to me to be like what other players have said--a means that produces more goods than would otherwise be available. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
People that wants to pvp in this game. Stop. Go play a game where pvp is supported.
Other MMOs have PvP that is relatively balanced. Its not impossible. |
The big daddy game of them all keeps re-balancing (nerfing and buffing) their sets nearly every patch, and they have way less sets than this game.
PVP balance is not impossible, but I'm yet to see an mmo that comes close to do it well that isn't an FPS (read everyone has nearly the same abilities). At all.
Not to mention it requires a justification for putting out the outlay to buff pvp. I don't think the current runners of NCSoft are going to provide PS with enough funds necessary to HIRE the personnel it would take to balance pvp, when there is near 0 participation.
The MOST we will ever get is them removing heal decay, and MAYBE DR as well. But that would just make pvp suck *** less. The issues that made it TERRIBAD before I13 would still be there.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
People that wants to pvp in this game. Stop. Go play a game where pvp is supported.
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If people didn't you'd never see most of the most popular pvp IOs on the markets, for any price. EVER.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Wow, yes Quake, Halflife, Soldier of Fortune 2, Battlefield, Counterstrike and more than I care to list did just that. I could sniper you for a headshot, grenade you, knife you, shotty you and so on - all had strengths and all had weaknesses.
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Yes, those are all FPS. In FPS (most of them anyway, the old school ones you just summed up for sure) every player has the exact same tools available as everyone else. That was the point of the post you just replied too.
Balancing 100+ power sets over 10+ classes is a whole lot more difficult. There're MMO's who do it better than CoH, but there are also plenty, even PVP centric ones, who don't.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
Pretty much this. Stop complaining about pvp IO farming.
If people didn't you'd never see most of the most popular pvp IOs on the markets, for any price. EVER. |
True, but only because the market caps at 2 billion.
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Also, as I suggested, have the PVP IO's available via other tracks: Increase supply.
Last, I have several PVP IO's, despite the fact that I neither PVP nor actively farm them. Alignment Merits For The Win!
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
It is nonsensical that the best way to amass in-game resources is to NOT play the game. How does that make ANY kind of sense? Change the code so AFK farming doesn't work any more, and increase supplies of PVP drops via other channels.
Didn`t read but if they ``fix`` PVP farming they should fix PVP and make it worthwhile - as in rewards that drop more than 1/100 times you manage to get a kill.
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/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
Kill the character doing the farming. Only one of them will be set to auto-rez, because the other is set to auto-attack. Kill the one auto-attacking and their farming is ruined.
I'm going to do this
As soon as I find out which areas they're farming