SSA Favoritism or "Dammnit writers, throw Heroes a bone!"
By
Arbiter_Shade,
Posted on: 2011-12-17 19:57 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I disagree with you.
In this case, Malaise was not only trying to replace Sister Psyche's mind with the evil Aurora one, but also to eradicate the first one, thus killing her. She acted on self defense.
As many pointed out, it was a struggle, the danger was so real that Sister Psyche is still in a coma, so clearly Malaise was not subdued, foiled and forced to start all over again? maybe. But he was still keeping Sister Psyche trapped in her own mind.
"What counts is not what sounds plausible, not what we would like to believe, not what one or two witnesses claim, but only what is supported by hard evidence rigorously and skeptically examined. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan
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Well, let's see here.|
Originally Posted by Ogi
When have the heroes made any permanent wins against villains? Thwarted villainy, yes. Actually won?
All the villains are still there and they don't even seem to have any skin in the SSA game, blueside can only lose it by even more now. |
-Heroes win when they defeat the Fifth Column in Cimerora. Villains can aid the heroes in this victory.
-Heroes win when they defeat the Rikti. Villains can aid the heroes in this victory.
-Heroes win when they defeat the Praetorians. Villains can aid the heroes in this victory.
Villains win when.... they... help the heroes... win.
C'mon, son.
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Seriously.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Well, let's see here.
-Heroes win when they defeat the Fifth Column in Cimerora. Villains can aid the heroes in this victory. -Heroes win when they defeat the Rikti. Villains can aid the heroes in this victory. -Heroes win when they defeat the Praetorians. Villains can aid the heroes in this victory. Villains win when.... they... help the heroes... win. C'mon, son. |
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Hew in drag baby
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Fifth Column: still around.|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Well, let's see here.
-Heroes win when they defeat the Fifth Column in Cimerora. Villains can aid the heroes in this victory. -Heroes win when they defeat the Rikti. Villains can aid the heroes in this victory. -Heroes win when they defeat the Praetorians. Villains can aid the heroes in this victory. Villains win when.... they... help the heroes... win. C'mon, son. |
Rikti: still around.
Praetorians: still around.
Villains didn't have to do a damned thing to save themselves. Meanwhile:
Miss Liberty: Dead.
Malaise: Dead.
Statesman: Dead.
FP: Under new management.
Redside needs a threat unique to the RI and in the arc no other villain cares to help, since you know, they're villains, they won't save their own skin if it saves someone else, and when RI screams for help, PC whispers "no", and some redside zone is annihilated, GC style.
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I'd also like to use this one as well. I'm not saying the the players having an omniscient view doesn't make the situation look worse than the characters would realize. But all it takes is for one rogue or villain to boast about their part on the scheme to get the whole story.|
Originally Posted by El__D
Genre Savvy would like to have a word with you.
Your characters live in a world that has been populated by superheroes for around the past 100 years. There are numerous stories and records about conflicts between Heroes and Villains (the plaques, contact and mission dialogue, the back story behind Paragon City/The Rogue Isles, etc.) around that your characters would more than likely know about and have as a frame of reference. Beyond that, the experience of the individual character comes into play. For example, I've got a character who has been fighting crime in Paragon City for over 10 years (his first step up into the direct 'superhero' scene was with the Outbreak and helping with the Rikti War). When he went in to the 4th WWD Arc, he picked up on the fact that Malaise was planning something; he avoids answering your questions, telling you more information, and basically stalls you until the Dirge hits. My character may not have known what Malaise was stalling them for until the sound-system activated, but it's pretty obvious that he was up to something. Heroes don't see everything coming, but if you don't use previous arcs, dialogue, and information you've gathered to at least try to get an idea about what might be happening, the only trope that Hero will be using is this one. |
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The heroes have been accomplishing worthwhile things the entire time the game has existed. Paragon City is still standing, in spite of the number of plots to destroy it or take it over. That means they've been winning the entire time.
The only time the villains ever get to win is in an alternate reality, or in the future, or any number of other hand-waving excuses as to why Lord Recluse or the player character is not now sitting on a throne in Atlas Park. All it takes for the heroes to score a victory is for nothing to change at all. The villain characters have been treated like chumps for the entire existence of villain characters. Only recently has there been the option to not be just another Arachnos flunkie. Every time there is co-op content released, the villains get to tag along with the heroes and help them out because there is a bigger threat, instead of taking advantage of the heroes' distraction to further their own goals like a real villain would do. I find it hilarious that the first time the villains get to have a real, tangible victory the heroes start whining about it. |
Heroes: Meteors utterly obliterate Galaxy City, Arachnos takes advantage of the situation to invade
Villains: Longbow takes over Fort Darwin, only to immediately lose it to a new up-and-coming villainous PC.
(This part's ironic because people always complain about how Longbow are a bunch of jerks and borderline vigilantes, but have no problems with Arachnos trying to ransack what's left of Galaxy City)
Heroes: Miss Liberty is killed, Malaise puts Psyche into a coma, Statesman is about to bite the bullet, and the Phalanx is falling apart
Villains: Absolutely nothing happens to any major villain character, save the loss of Malaise, who really isn't on their side to begin with.
I'll state it once, and I'll continue to state it as long as folks believe I'm arguing otherwise: I have no issue with villains winning, as long as it's not so one-sided. And no, arguing that the entirety of the game's content from 1-50 is heroically favored isn't valid because the arcs in CoV are self-contained and separate from the arcs of CoH.
And this thing about "Villains should be pushing their plans forward and taking advantage of the situation, instead of helping" is also a load of bull. Any smart villain would realize that undermining the heroes at such a crucial juncture (Imperious Task Force, Lady Gray Task Force, and the Incarnate Trials) would only potentially damage or ruin any plans they have. Sure, villains could eke out a victory...then immediately lose when they can't stop the badguys from completely overrunning them.
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Originally Posted by Ogi
Fifth Column: still around.
Rikti: still around. Praetorians: still around. Villains didn't have to do a damned thing to save themselves. Meanwhile: Miss Liberty: Dead. Malaise: Dead. Statesman: Dead. FP: Under new management. |
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I'm not even sure where the subdued crap is coming from. Are people playing a different arc then I am? You hadn't even TOUCHED Malaise yet in the hero arc, just the images of himself he sent at you. And of Aurora. And not trying to kill her? I am pretty sure he even SAYS that, that she was going to die and naughty-Aurora was going to take her place. She was in clear and immediate danger, and she STILL IS, she just eliminated one threat from her mind.|
Originally Posted by Baronesa
I disagree with you.
In this case, Malaise was not only trying to replace Sister Psyche's mind with the evil Aurora one, but also to eradicate the first one, thus killing her. She acted on self defense. As many pointed out, it was a struggle, the danger was so real that Sister Psyche is still in a coma, so clearly Malaise was not subdued, foiled and forced to start all over again? maybe. But he was still keeping Sister Psyche trapped in her own mind. |
No, this was not a case of "I vouch for you, but cross me and I'll kill you." This was a case of "I believed you couldchange. I thought you could be different. I trusted you. You betrayed that trust. You killed Miss. Liberty, and you are trying to kill me and the person who came to save me. You are beyond redemption."
Listen, no one is saying this should be "City of Vigilantes". What is being said is that Psyche was in very mortal peril, and YOU, the PC was as well. Not only that, but had Malaise been allowed to continue his machinations, Psyche's BODY would have put other people, such as her husband, at serious risk. At THAT POINT, Malaise had pushed her over the edge. He had tormented her with visions of her fears, of her memories, and had tried to encase her in her mind ((And you, of course)) making her think that she was nothing more then a mental patient. And this was on TOP of the betrayl, and the murder of Miss Liberty. In my book, she was more then justified, and in a non-vigilante way, of eliminating him entirely from her mind.
"I have something to say! It's better to burn out then to fade away!"
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Please bring the SFs into this. What do the villains accomplish?|
Originally Posted by Issen
So all the arcs redside about Villains gaining power or using what's available for diabolical means (Vincent Ross, Patron Arcs, etc etc) don't count as "tangible victories"? Do I even need to bring the SFs into this argument? The problem we're stating is that the Heroes seem to constantly be on the receiving end of really bad things.
<snip> This is a little that TVTropes likes to call Status Quo Is God. Heroes can be smashed and tossed around as much as the devs like, but god forbid the villains have to lose anything of actual substance. |
Tarikoss: they get used by a hero, hopefully to die and never return while sealing a demon that powers Cap au Diable.
Silver Mantis: they take out a villain group and their headquarters (Sky Raiders) - which is still active afterwards in the zone it appears in.
Renault: they steal some limited power from the Leviathan. For someone else (Mako).
Ice Mistral: they get the Shard of Serafina - which is only one of the glowies available in paper missions for the past 30 levels - to stop a Circle of Thorns plot. Yay, stopping a villain group again!
Recluse: Theoretically you kill Ms. Liberty and potentially the entire Freedom Phalanx. Except nobody dies, and nothing is accomplished other than Recluse pats you on the head and says "good job, you sure showed them".
The patron arcs? You don't get to act the way you want in most of them - you get to act how Arbiter Daos tells you to. Sure, you unlock the patron pools, but that's like saying how successful Mender Ramiel's arc is because you unlock the alpha slot. Time After Time is the only one that has your villain really showing a clear victory, and that's only because you can break away from Arachnos at that point - which you wouldn't need to if the whole game hadn't been written with it in mind.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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None of that poorly written villain content involves PC heroes actually beating PC villains. You were getting crap from NPCs, which sucked as much back then as it sucks now. Perhaps it's just the consequence of playing in a static, persistent world prior to the introduction of Phasing Technology. And you have as much right to criticize that type of storytelling as heroes do to what's happening in the SSAs. But you know what? We DO have phasing tech now! You have your gore-filled victory, I'll keep my immaculate status quo. Right? Wrong. For some reason, we're still getting crap from NPCs...|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Please bring the SFs into this. What do the villains accomplish?
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
I'm not even sure where the subdued crap is coming from. Are people playing a different arc then I am? You hadn't even TOUCHED Malaise yet in the hero arc, just the images of himself he sent at you. And of Aurora. And not trying to kill her? I am pretty sure he even SAYS that, that she was going to die and naughty-Aurora was going to take her place. She was in clear and immediate danger, and she STILL IS, she just eliminated one threat from her mind.
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| No, this was not a case of "I vouch for you, but cross me and I'll kill you." This was a case of "I believed you couldchange. I thought you could be different. I trusted you. You betrayed that trust. You killed Miss. Liberty, and you are trying to kill me and the person who came to save me. You are beyond redemption." |
At this point, I'm forced to watch as the authorities blatantly ignore the fact that a celebrity "hero" killed a suspect in custody with no repercussions at all, just like Praetoria. That, or be forced to lie to get her off jail, in essence "vouch" for her the same way she once did for Malaise. Considering we're potentially talking about Mother Mayhem, none of those prospects reassure me.
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| Listen, no one is saying this should be "City of Vigilantes". |
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| What is being said is that Psyche was in very mortal peril, and YOU, the PC was as well. Not only that, but had Malaise been allowed to continue his machinations, Psyche's BODY would have put other people, such as her husband, at serious risk. At THAT POINT, Malaise had pushed her over the edge. He had tormented her with visions of her fears, of her memories, and had tried to encase her in her mind ((And you, of course)) making her think that she was nothing more then a mental patient. And this was on TOP of the betrayl, and the murder of Miss Liberty. In my book, she was more then justified, and in a non-vigilante way, of eliminating him entirely from her mind. |
- Malaise didn't kill Miss Liberty, Darrin Wade did (or a PC villain). The PCs are aware of this by arc #4, and even if they weren't, they didn't witness Malaise doing it either;
- The immediate threat appeared dealt with, and we've got no way of knowing if by that point Tilman would have been able to kick Malaise out of her head without killing him;
- Heroes get a licence to arrest criminals, not kill them. You're not allowed to carry out executions without serious repercussions;
- You don't know that Aurora-Psyche is evil, you're only assuming she is. In Praetoria, Mother Mayhem's persona was the evil one, despite all the propaganda from Cole and the rest of the Praetorian Guard;
- Had PCs stopped Tilman from doing something she'll probably regret for the rest of her life, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Eh, this is pointless. We could go back and fourth on it all day. Let's just agree to disagree, and step away.
"I have something to say! It's better to burn out then to fade away!"
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Alright.
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Originally Posted by Paladiamors
Eh, this is pointless. We could go back and fourth on it all day. Let's just agree to disagree, and step away.
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Do you seriously think that content would be removed from the game after you finish it? Hell no. It's repeatable content. These are self-contained story arcs that the devs said WOULD bring change to the game. Surprise!|
Originally Posted by Ogi
Fifth Column: still around.
Rikti: still around. Praetorians: still around. |
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Originally Posted by Ogi
Redside needs a threat unique to the RI
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Originally Posted by Ogi
and in the arc no other villain cares to help, since you know, they're villains, they won't save their own skin if it saves someone else,
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Originally Posted by Ogi
and when RI screams for help, PC whispers "no", and some redside zone is annihilated, GC style.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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You know, I never got the feeling that you killed Ms Liberty. It always felt like you beat the tar out of her though.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
Recluse: Theoretically you kill Ms. Liberty and potentially the entire Freedom Phalanx. Except nobody dies, and nothing is accomplished other than Recluse pats you on the head and says "good job, you sure showed them".
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And none of the SSA arc involves PC villains vs PC heroes either. There aren't any direct PvP missions in the game. |
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
None of that poorly written villain content involves PC heroes actually beating PC villains.
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If you really want an example of villains doing something that heroes clean up there is the Outbreak tutorial (Radio contact mission for villains), the Hess TF (villains provide the plans for the robot in Operation Skyhook), and I'm sure there are several others I'm not thinking of off the top of my head.
But I wasn't the one bringing up the SFs as "things villains accomplish", I was using them to show that it's the same-old, same-old and no different than what people are complaining about here.
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Originally Posted by Zemblanity
At this point, I'm forced to watch as the authorities blatantly ignore the fact that a celebrity "hero" killed a suspect in custody with no repercussions at all, just like Praetoria. That, or be forced to lie to get her off jail, in essence "vouch" for her the same way she once did for Malaise. Considering we're potentially talking about Mother Mayhem, none of those prospects reassure me.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I would like you to do something for me, Issen. Think about the Rikti War Zone. Now Rikti are one of those big threats that the Villains had to set aside our goals to help the Heroes fight, right? Who else is in the Rikti War Zone? Arachnos, Crey, Malta, Council, Knives, Devouring Earth, and Nemesis. What are those Villains doing? Because it doesn't look like they're dropping everything to rush off and save Fusionette. As for Cimerora, Malta has tried their hand in using that to their advantage too. And plenty of villains groups have been making deals with Praetoria. So the game doesn't seem to think the idea is so far-fetched. The 'Villains to the Rescue' story point has just been used so much to the point that it feels like a convenient excuse at this point. |
Originally Posted by Issen
And this thing about "Villains should be pushing their plans forward and taking advantage of the situation, instead of helping" is also a load of bull. Any smart villain would realize that undermining the heroes at such a crucial juncture (Imperious Task Force, Lady Gray Task Force, and the Incarnate Trials) would only potentially damage or ruin any plans they have. Sure, villains could eke out a victory...then immediately lose when they can't stop the badguys from completely overrunning them.
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Let's say if all content were more villainous, and we were the invading force attacking the Rikti Homeworld, Cimerora, and Praetoria. Now for those playing heroes the question would arise that "Why would we do this?" and the answer would always be "You've been tricked into doing it because the villains lied to you." Now you may accept that at first, but after a few times the plot point gets old, and worn out and just doesn't hold the same water it once did. Wouldn't you get tired of that and want some sort of better way to be used?
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Sister Psyche was still all tangled up in that mind-web or whatever you want to call it. She was being attacked by TWO people at the time. One of them falters for a moment and she took that moment to kill him in self defense. |
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
I believe he was subdued. Other posters seem to disagree. If that's what we're arguing, I'll step away. But if the argument drifts into "Malaise had it coming," I'll be baaack.
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How anyone can say Malaise was “subdued” is beyond me. Subdued = harmless. He most certainly was not. Could he have pulled out another unexpected attack at any moment? I certainly think so.
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... am I parsing the OP correctly if I paraphrase their original post as 'I don't mind the villains winning, just please don't make my character a dumb*** so that can happen'? Frankly, the heroes grabbed the idiot ball with both fists in the last couple of SSAs, and have been busily beating their own brains out with it ever since. Manticore especially. The last couple of SSAs make him look like he's got such a raging inferiority complex that he shouldn't be allowed to own a capgun, much less a massive arsenal of superhero gear.
Then again, the writing for the last couple has been... odd. It's like our characters have suddenly popped out of the game and into the comics, where the Phalanx are the last, desperate bastion against evil, not just the tip-top of a massive heap. There's a couple of lines to the effect of them 'not being the only ones any more', but the words ring a bit hollow when compared to their actions. I doubt Malaise could have done much if he had been locked down by a dozen psi-cops, for example, or if the Midnighters had been on hand to magically defuse him and had been able to block the Dirge of Chaos... They had options, they simply didn't explore them the way they should have, perhaps out of a misguided feel that this was 'family'.
I don't know. I don't dislike the SSAs, at least not the way some posters seem to, but I really do feel like a guest star in them- like Aurora Borealis just kind of said 'hey, I know a guy...' when the problem came up.
Also, let me comment that I'm squarely in the 'self-defense' camp for Sister Psyche. Malaise might not have been trying to inflict physical harm on her (iffy, given that Aurora Borealis flat-out says that if her evil twin/fragment would attempt to murder Psyche if she couldn't take full control- and quite bluntly, if you're going to play that card, you'd better let it swing both ways- Psyche didn't lay a finger on Malaise, she just erased the part of him that had been projected into her mind), the destruction of her original personality is just as much murdering her as if he'd stuck a knife into her. Read the souvenir- Malaise says that he's planning to 'remake her as a completely different person'. If that had worked, it would mean that Tilman wasn't coming back. As in 'She's dead, Jim.' Given that Psyche wound up in a coma after killing Malaise off, it sure sounds like it was supposed to be a last-ditch desperation thing, not something done in cold blood.
And really, until we can get Sister Psyche out of a coma, she's not going to be undergoing an inquiry, given that she's, well, comatose. I'm hoping that the devs have the stones to show her undergoing some consequences for killing Jean off, even if it was self-defense. Of course, given how... irregular... her dealings with him always were, it might get a bit weird. Some of that was just sloppy writing, mind- I could swear I remember reading some bits that said that Malaise actually suffered dissociative identity disorder, and Sister Psyche was forcing the 'good' identity into dominance, while other times it just says that Sister Psyche healed the damage that his own powers had done to his mind. *shrug*
EDIT- and as to the 'all the co-op content is heroically flavoured'... I hate to be so gauche as to bring numbers into things, but the fact remains that hero-side is where the vast majority of the money is coming from. The bean-counters would probably beat the devs to death with filing cabinets if they tried to make villainous-flavoured content that made the heroes into suckers, for fear of alienating the significantly more profitable blueside players. At least 'saving your own butt' is a more villainous motivation than 'haha, sucker' is a heroic one.
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I had a thought about the Malaise issue as well. Sister Psyche didn't kill Malaise, Malaise did. We know that Malaise's death was a foregone conclusion, for Malaise. He didn't go in there thinking he might die, he went in there to go down in a blaze of glory. He and Aurora-Psyche were rending control from Sis. I think there is a distinct chance that Malaise encouraged her to kill him. This was all part of his plan after all.
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That's entirely possible. He may have been trying to elict such a response from Psyche, to force her into ANOTHER weakened state, so that Aurora could take over her. And even in the off chance that Psyche comes out alright, she will NOT be mentally alright. She did just kill Malaise after all, even if he did deserve it. It may have just been him playing it for "Heads I win, tails you lose." And even in the off chance that he HAD some how made it out of Pysche's mind alive, he was still in custody, and he'd have a very angry Manticore to deal with, at the least. It was a bit of a Xanatos Gamble, but it seems to have paid off so far.
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Originally Posted by Mad_Scientist_JC
I had a thought about the Malaise issue as well. Sister Psyche didn't kill Malaise, Malaise did. We know that Malaise's death was a foregone conclusion, for Malaise. He didn't go in there thinking he might die, he went in there to go down in a blaze of glory. He and Aurora-Psyche were rending control from Sis. I think there is a distinct chance that Malaise encouraged her to kill him. This was all part of his plan after all.
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"I have something to say! It's better to burn out then to fade away!"
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What does a dozen psi cops have on Malaise? He's an AV threat. The dozen psi cops isnt likely to take him down. That's why they need heroes.|
Originally Posted by TeChameleon
... am I parsing the OP correctly if I paraphrase their original post as 'I don't mind the villains winning, just please don't make my character a dumb*** so that can happen'? Frankly, the heroes grabbed the idiot ball with both fists in the last couple of SSAs, and have been busily beating their own brains out with it ever since. Manticore especially. The last couple of SSAs make him look like he's got such a raging inferiority complex that he shouldn't be allowed to own a capgun, much less a massive arsenal of superhero gear.
Then again, the writing for the last couple has been... odd. It's like our characters have suddenly popped out of the game and into the comics, where the Phalanx are the last, desperate bastion against evil, not just the tip-top of a massive heap. There's a couple of lines to the effect of them 'not being the only ones any more', but the words ring a bit hollow when compared to their actions. I doubt Malaise could have done much if he had been locked down by a dozen psi-cops, for example, or if the Midnighters had been on hand to magically defuse him and had been able to block the Dirge of Chaos... They had options, they simply didn't explore them the way they should have, perhaps out of a misguided feel that this was 'family'. I don't know. I don't dislike the SSAs, at least not the way some posters seem to, but I really do feel like a guest star in them- like Aurora Borealis just kind of said 'hey, I know a guy...' when the problem came up. Also, let me comment that I'm squarely in the 'self-defense' camp for Sister Psyche. Malaise might not have been trying to inflict physical harm on her (iffy, given that Aurora Borealis flat-out says that if her evil twin/fragment would attempt to murder Psyche if she couldn't take full control- and quite bluntly, if you're going to play that card, you'd better let it swing both ways- Psyche didn't lay a finger on Malaise, she just erased the part of him that had been projected into her mind), the destruction of her original personality is just as much murdering her as if he'd stuck a knife into her. Read the souvenir- Malaise says that he's planning to 'remake her as a completely different person'. If that had worked, it would mean that Tilman wasn't coming back. As in 'She's dead, Jim.' Given that Psyche wound up in a coma after killing Malaise off, it sure sounds like it was supposed to be a last-ditch desperation thing, not something done in cold blood. And really, until we can get Sister Psyche out of a coma, she's not going to be undergoing an inquiry, given that she's, well, comatose. I'm hoping that the devs have the stones to show her undergoing some consequences for killing Jean off, even if it was self-defense. Of course, given how... irregular... her dealings with him always were, it might get a bit weird. Some of that was just sloppy writing, mind- I could swear I remember reading some bits that said that Malaise actually suffered dissociative identity disorder, and Sister Psyche was forcing the 'good' identity into dominance, while other times it just says that Sister Psyche healed the damage that his own powers had done to his mind. *shrug* EDIT- and as to the 'all the co-op content is heroically flavoured'... I hate to be so gauche as to bring numbers into things, but the fact remains that hero-side is where the vast majority of the money is coming from. The bean-counters would probably beat the devs to death with filing cabinets if they tried to make villainous-flavoured content that made the heroes into suckers, for fear of alienating the significantly more profitable blueside players. At least 'saving your own butt' is a more villainous motivation than 'haha, sucker' is a heroic one. |
And CoH storylines always seem to play it as "Sure...city of heroes...but it's not a lot of heroes."
Don't let the server population fool you, CoH is written for about a group of 8 heroes.
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Does it count if I've always hated the ****** both in-game and in the comics and wanted him dead for reasons unrelated to this story?
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Originally Posted by Zemblanity
But if the argument drifts into "Malaise had it coming," I'll be baaack.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Yes it does Sam, it still counts.
And a thought just occurred to me, with Malaise being dead(and removed from game content I would hope) there is no story/lore/uniqueness reasons preventing the much requested Dark illusions for Dominators 
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What about Praetoria Malaise? Have we killed him too?
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Originally Posted by DMystic
Yes it does Sam, it still counts.
And a thought just occurred to me, with Malaise being dead(and removed from game content I would hope) there is no story/lore/uniqueness reasons preventing the much requested Dark illusions for Dominators |
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We apparently finish him off in the MoM trial.
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Originally Posted by Mad_Scientist_JC
What about Praetoria Malaise? Have we killed him too?
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Whatever. I'm done preaching, if this game becomes City of Vigilantes, so be it.