SSA Favoritism or "Dammnit writers, throw Heroes a bone!"
By
Arbiter_Shade,
Posted on: 2011-12-17 19:57 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
The developers hate heroes! 
@War-Nugget
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
CoH players are stupid and incompetent compared to WoW players.
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May have to take that .5 away actually. I hear tell that the missiles still launch while you're fighting Blitz. As to your complaints, well, Villains are due a victory. How many times do we have to set aside our goals because some threat greater than all of us pops up and we have to play hero? No matter how despicable a character I roll, I can go to the Rikti Warzone and be given a mission that says Save the World. That's pretty insulting to a villain. We don't have a say in that. It not a big surprise that you feel this way though. Things have come up Hero so often that I was actually amazed when I finally realized that since a hero is guaranteed to die and be removed from the world in these arcs, villains would actually have a solid victory in this no matter what. I had come to accept the fact that villains will only get to win if they play hero, that I never really thought about what a sweet villain victory this would be. Honestly your post made me like these arcs all the more since it seems like the heroes are really getting hosed. Thanks. 
To be perfectly honest, I think you're being way too generous on the villain points and too stingy on the hero points. But, I suppose if you don't view anything other than a total win for the heroes and total loss for the villains as a point for the heroes, then you're right.
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In most stories (not all, but a sizable number) the story progresses with the "good guys" basically losing for the vast majority of the story. If they do "win" a battle, it is one of moral superiority it's at the expense of a worse loss elsewhere (Mr. Hero saved the love intrest but in doing so missed his chance at stopping the big bad's plans cold, thus negating the threat entirely). That's how dramatic tension is maintained. It's not until the 3 (or the 5th act, depending on the structure) where the Good Guys pull theselves together, figure it out, stop being reactive and take a proactive stand and win the day in the end.
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This is also true. If we roll on comic book logic, this is a big event comic. Villains win for a bit, and then Heroes get the major victory in the end. I'm sure you'll stop us from taking State's power for ourselves and using it to do some awful stuff with it. At least we can be mostly sure that Statesman will go down swinging, even Villains will want it that way. Well, maybe not all, but I want it to be a knock-down, drag-out fight.
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Originally Posted by Redbone
In most stories (not all, but a sizable number) the story progresses with the "good guys" basically losing for the vast majority of the story. If they do "win" a battle, it is one of moral superiority it's at the expense of a worse loss elsewhere (Mr. Hero saved the love intrest but in doing so missed his chance at stopping the big bad's plans cold, thus negating the threat entirely). That's how dramatic tension is maintained. It's not until the 3 (or the 5th act, depending on the structure) where the Good Guys pull theselves together, figure it out, stop being reactive and take a proactive stand and win the day in the end.
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I'm actually curious as to hear how you came to this conclusion? I haven't played many of the arcs redside besides SSA1 and 2, but if you can add something to the discussion, please do. I'm interested in hearing a perspective.|
Originally Posted by Tyger42
To be perfectly honest, I think you're being way too generous on the villain points and too stingy on the hero points. But, I suppose if you don't view anything other than a total win for the heroes and total loss for the villains as a point for the heroes, then you're right.
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And I don't honestly think I'm being too generous/stingy with the points. I mean, sure, in SSA1 you save Synapse...but only because the villains didn't RTFM, which (in my mind) diminishes the value of the victory. Heroes only prevailed because the villains didn't read the booklet that came with the magic artifact.
It's hard for me to feel proud when you realize you won on a technicality.And Alexis' death in SSA3 feels like the cheapest blow because it occurs at a time where the heroes have NO idea as to her status until after the fact. If the heroes knew she was going to be killed and just failed to reach her in time, that'd be fine. I could live with that. But that she's killed while you're doing other things (Warburg missiles) means you didn't even have a slim chance of getting her back at all, or even knew she was going to be killed in the first place.
Keeping score is pointless because we know the heroes lose already.
A Phalanx member dies, and even if they come back, even before the arc ends, there has been terrible damage inflicted on the Phalanx that can not be reversed.
Even if you only view your character a hero in the slightest, the death of Alexis is a pointless waste of life and the ignominious end to someone who was Miss. Liberty for decades. Sister Psyche has been savagely attacked, and even if she recovers physically, those scars will remain and Aurora likely has massive guilt for the part she unwillingly played in it. Any trust the Phalanx had for Manticore is gone, and he no longer trusts them either.
The villains literally have and had nothing at stake to lose.
They don't. This isn't even their plan to have fail, it's Wade's. Even if Wade double crosses them and they have to turn around and help save the world, that's no big tragedy for them. If anything it gets them street cred in the Isles for smacking down a 'god'.
Worst case scenario for villains is they break even.
Heroes have already suffered heavy losses and injuries. Even if they stop Wade and Rularuu, it's hardly a win worth trumpeting.
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As I stated, I've NO problem with the Villains coming out on top (and no, the Rikti War Zone missions don't really count because the Rikti are bad news for EVERYONE. It's just like the Praetorians. If they win, everyone, everywhere, loses), but NOT when it's written this way. It feels as though the heroes are forced to fall several steps behind because the writing demands it, rather than for any logical reason.
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Originally Posted by Mad_Scientist_JC
May have to take that .5 away actually. I hear tell that the missiles still launch while you're fighting Blitz. As to your complaints, well, Villains are due a victory. How many times do we have to set aside our goals because some threat greater than all of us pops up and we have to play hero? No matter how despicable a character I roll, I can go to the Rikti Warzone and be given a mission that says Save the World. That's pretty insulting to a villain. We don't have a say in that. It not a big surprise that you feel this way though. Things have come up Hero so often that I was actually amazed when I finally realized that since a hero is guaranteed to die and be removed from the world in these arcs, villains would actually have a solid victory in this no matter what. I had come to accept the fact that villains will only get to win if they play hero, that I never really thought about what a sweet villain victory this would be. Honestly your post made me like these arcs all the more since it seems like the heroes are really getting hosed. Thanks.
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I want to believe this. I really, REALLY want to believe this will happen. But the bitter taste in my mouth and the sting left behind by the previous 4 arcs have left me feeling more than a little upset and lacking motivation. As Johnny_Butane stated, massive damage has already been inflicted. Even if, somehow, the heroes manage to eke out a victory, it'll be a minor and possibly hollow one at best.|
Originally Posted by Redbone
In most stories (not all, but a sizable number) the story progresses with the "good guys" basically losing for the vast majority of the story. If they do "win" a battle, it is one of moral superiority it's at the expense of a worse loss elsewhere (Mr. Hero saved the love intrest but in doing so missed his chance at stopping the big bad's plans cold, thus negating the threat entirely). That's how dramatic tension is maintained. It's not until the 3 (or the 5th act, depending on the structure) where the Good Guys pull theselves together, figure it out, stop being reactive and take a proactive stand and win the day in the end.
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Meanwhile the Villain Status Quo (Villains don't take any substantive losses) is maintained because God (read: the Devs) made it so. I mean, Freedom had the first real blow dealt to Recluse (Fort Darwin being lost) in forever...only to have the FIRST THING new villains do is take it back and re-establish the bottom line.
I mean, if you think about it? Praetoria is mostly a Hero-thing. Recluse doesn't give two craps about Praetoria or a possible hostile takeover it seems, and it has to be Paragon that steps up to the plate to deal with it. Blueside seems to be investing all the work, and Redside getting to benefit from it.
At least it's how it seems.
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Villainsn need some things to go their way sometimes |
Originally Posted by Issen
Freedom had the first real blow dealt to Recluse (Fort Darwin being lost) in forever...only to have the FIRST THING new villains do is take it back and re-establish the bottom line.
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| I mean, if you think about it? Praetoria is mostly a Hero-thing. Recluse doesn't give two craps about Praetoria or a possible hostile takeover it seems, and it has to be Paragon that steps up to the plate to deal with it. |
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| Blueside seems to be investing all the work, and Redside getting to benefit from it. |
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
With the SSA arcs, are the cutscenes memories or visions that flash in your hero's head? I've only run the first one, and it's been a little while. Does your hero see that cut scene, I feel like I remember it being said that they do.
Talking about going vigilante with Miss Lib...by the time I got to part 4 on a villain, I just felt like killin Malaise myself, saving Sister and handing Darrin back over to the Midnighters.
Darrin is dodgy as hell, as there is at least..4? Boss class Midnight members left. They somehow can't find some guy who, according to the arcs, has no super powers and just sells stuff? Not to mention, you help him out in his own story arc, where he talks about wanting to summon Ruluruu. What villain is going to think THAT is a good idea? Oh yeah, maybe this super powerful god of ANGER will feel generous and grant me power..while killing everyone else.
I think it would be cool if you could swap the arc alignment (not the toons) mid mission, and side with the heroes, or villains.
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His mouth moves, but his actions say something different. He says he wants Tyrant gotten rid of, but otherwise takes no visible action. Villains helping out in the Incarnate Trials often has nothing to do with Recluse, he's not ordering them to assist.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Recluse wants Tyrant destroyed - he says so on the Tin Mage TF.
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So why hasn't Recluse taken ANY overt action? If he's just offering his verbal support to the cause it doesn't really mean much.
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Actually, I think Recluse will take the loss of Statesman harder than you think. In fact, I fully expect him to be fighting along side us during the last mission, trying to bring down the people responsible for Statesman's death.|
Originally Posted by Issen
Meanwhile the Villain Status Quo (Villains don't take any substantive losses) is maintained because God (read: the Devs) made it so. I mean, Freedom had the first real blow dealt to Recluse (Fort Darwin being lost) in forever...only to have the FIRST THING new villains do is take it back and re-establish the bottom line.
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Let him make what excuses he wants to explain his actions, Marcus Cole was his best friend. And over the years, he's the only one that hasn't left him. Even the Rikti couldn't remove him.
And now, he's gone.
I expect to see a wrath like nothing we've ever seen from Lord Recluse before.
(And if we don't, I'm going to feel VERY let down.)
"I do so love taking a nice, well thought out character and putting them through hell. It's like tossing a Faberge Egg onto the stage during a Gallagher concert." - me
@Palador / @Rabid Unicorn
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Recluse is a putz. His big plan to defeat his greatest nemesis was to sit there and find someone else to do it for him. How many people need to bring back his helmet from the future before he realizes the Destined One project is a dumb idea. Given how his plans work, him sitting there doing nothing coupled with liberal use of time travel will be his plan to help.|
Originally Posted by Issen
His mouth moves, but his actions say something different. He says he wants Tyrant gotten rid of, but otherwise takes no visible action. Villains helping out in the Incarnate Trials often has nothing to do with Recluse, he's not ordering them to assist.
So why hasn't Recluse taken ANY overt action? If he's just offering his verbal support to the cause it doesn't really mean much. |
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Originally Posted by Rabid_M
I expect to see a wrath like nothing we've ever seen from Lord Recluse before.
(And if we don't, I'm going to feel VERY let down.) |
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I'll let you answer that:|
Originally Posted by Issen
So why hasn't Recluse taken ANY overt action? If he's just offering his verbal support to the cause it doesn't really mean much.
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Originally Posted by Issen
Blueside seems to be investing all the work, and Redside getting to benefit from it.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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I think they set it up that way in order to avoid exactly the complaint you're making. After all, you can't have a slim chance of getting her back. If you did, then some people would succeed and others would fail, and that would splinter the storytelling in a way that the devs just can't handle. Everyone must fail. That's how the story is written. So, given that she's going to die, the question is: Are the players to blame? If she was alive when you went in and you failed to save her, because the devs forced you to fail, people would feel really lousy about that and there would be a lot of player anger. Instead, they made it so she was already dead when you went in, so you never had a chance to save her. |
Originally Posted by Issen
And Alexis' death in SSA3 feels like the cheapest blow because it occurs at a time where the heroes have NO idea as to her status until after the fact. If the heroes knew she was going to be killed and just failed to reach her in time, that'd be fine. I could live with that. But that she's killed while you're doing other things (Warburg missiles) means you didn't even have a slim chance of getting her back at all, or even knew she was going to be killed in the first place.
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The thing you're asking for, as a solution to a problem, is actually an even worse problem. One that doesn't exist because the devs already solved it.
Admittedly, it's not a perfect solution, but telling a story in an MMO is hard. In a PnP RPG, it's ok if the players ruin the GM's story. The GM can make up a new one on the spot. The devs don't have that ability. They can't really let us change anything of substance. Everyone has to jump through the same hoops. They have added branching dialog. If they ever add branching mission trees, then we'll be getting somewhere. But there are games which have that, and it still isn't perfect.
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
As far as "forced to fail" goes, I think it's really #3 that is the kick in the teeth for heroes. The only way for them to set up that situation is for heroes to be completely suckered in by the most obvious set up in history - you can't even really wave it away by considering that players are "genre savvy", it's just heroes ignoring common sense for no reason.
#1 is fine IMHO, the fact that the evil mastermind has a backup plan doesn't change the outcome of the individual situation - Synapse saved, obelisk destroyed, Lost thwarted.
#2 resulted in some information, which is really more of a consolation prize in the grand scheme of things. Otherwise, Tommy Arcanus was saved, Numina was never really in any danger, and I'm pretty sure the Rulu-Shin got basically nothing out of the whole ordeal. It's entirely possible that the arc was all a smoke screen for Darrin Wade's true intentions which might be revealed in a later arc, but if anything I'd call this one a wash.
#4 I don't remember them actually saying that "Evil Aurora" is now in control. The impression that I got is that she was free inside Sister's mind to cause a bit of mischief, but there was nothing to actually suggest that Sister Psyche was incapacitated at all as a result of the encounter. Again, it's possible this was another smoke screen situation, going by Malaise's attitude throughout the encounter, but I don't think the status quo is affected quite as badly as you think.
#5 definitely sounds like it's going to be another "forced to fail" situation, but I'll say we should probably wait to reserve judgement until after we've played the arc.
So all in all, I think it's not as bad as you want to think. It may very well get that bad, but calling doom in this situation is a little premature.
A circle forms, everybody comes round
Just to hear the incredible sound
Of a genius smashing expectations
- Jonathan Coulton
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What good is ruling the world, when there is no world to rule?|
Originally Posted by Mad_Scientist_JC
No matter how despicable a character I roll, I can go to the Rikti Warzone and be given a mission that says Save the World. That's pretty insulting to a villain.
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Originally Posted by Mad_Scientist_JC
Things have come up Hero so often that I was actually amazed when I finally realized that since a hero is guaranteed to die and be removed from the world in these arcs, villains would actually have a solid victory in this no matter what.
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Someone who wants everything destroyed. Not an uncommon trait among some villains. Or perhaps he has a plan to tap into the power of Rularuu once he's freed. Again, another common trait among villains, to control powerful forces.|
Originally Posted by MisterD
Darrin is dodgy as hell, as there is at least..4? Boss class Midnight members left. They somehow can't find some guy who, according to the arcs, has no super powers and just sells stuff? Not to mention, you help him out in his own story arc, where he talks about wanting to summon Ruluruu. What villain is going to think THAT is a good idea? Oh yeah, maybe this super powerful god of ANGER will feel generous and grant me power..while killing everyone else.
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Originally Posted by Mad_Scientist_JC
Recluse is a putz. His big plan to defeat his greatest nemesis was to sit there and find someone else to do it for him. How many people need to bring back his helmet from the future before he realizes the Destined One project is a dumb idea. Given how his plans work, him sitting there doing nothing coupled with liberal use of time travel will be his plan to help.
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Not to mention, some plans fail, some succeed. He had multiple plots, such as his one plot that involved absorbing all of Paragon City's heroes' powers to make himself all-powerful, which came incredibly close to succeeding. Or his invasion of Siren's Call, which worked pretty damn well.
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Originally Posted by Mokalus
#4 I don't remember them actually saying that "Evil Aurora" is now in control. The impression that I got is that she was free inside Sister's mind to cause a bit of mischief, but there was nothing to actually suggest that Sister Psyche was incapacitated at all as a result of the encounter. Again, it's possible this was another smoke screen situation, going by Malaise's attitude throughout the encounter, but I don't think the status quo is affected quite as badly as you think.
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The SSA arc is called WHO WILL DIE?
In the arc, A HERO DIES.
When a HERO DIES, VILLAINS are involved.
When VILLAINS cause a HERO to DIE, villains are victorious.
I'm sad no one has said this yet, and I'm even sadder I had to spell it out for you. If the arc was "LORD RECLUSE GETS BEATEN TO DEATH BY A BUNCH OF HEROES" the redside arcs would be every villain character getting crapped on in every arc. And as for 'throwing heroes a bone'?
No. For once redside is getting some love and you have no right to get your undies in a wad over it.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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As I said before, and in fact PREFACED MY ORIGINAL POST WITH:|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
The SSA arc is called WHO WILL DIE?
In the arc, A HERO DIES. When a HERO DIES, VILLAINS are involved. When VILLAINS cause a HERO to DIE, villains are victorious. I'm sad no one has said this yet, and I'm even sadder I had to spell it out for you. If the arc was "LORD RECLUSE GETS BEATEN TO DEATH BY A BUNCH OF HEROES" the redside arcs would be every villain character getting crapped on in every arc. And as for 'throwing heroes a bone'? No. For once redside is getting some love and you have no right to get your undies in a wad over it. |
I have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM WITH VILLAINS WINNING.
I cannot state this clearly enough.
What bugs me? What has my "undies in a wad"? Is the manner in which it's written. I'm fine with Villains winning if it looks like the Heroes at least TRIED to foil them.
Right now the arcs have us bluesiders running around like chickens with our heads lopped off.
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Funny how people react when they have the floor dropped out from under them.|
Originally Posted by Issen
Right now the arcs have us bluesiders running around like chickens with our heads lopped off.
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The mystery architect (remaining nameless for spoiler purposes) has done one hell of a job hitting the heroes where it hurts. Yes, you're running around like chickens with their heads cut off; this is because the mystery architect has already chopped off said head. From here on out it's just a matter of waiting for the body to stop running. Then the job will be finished.
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Best explanation I can come up with for this is the fact that, like most stories, the villains are organized, know where to target, what they're doing, what they want, and how to get it. Meanwhile, the heroes, preoccupied with every other crisis in the world, get surprise attacks left and right from Malaise, Darrin Wade, Marshal Blitz, and the player villain, that they didn't have the proper time to collect themselves.|
Originally Posted by Issen
As I said before, and in fact PREFACED MY ORIGINAL POST WITH:
I have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM WITH VILLAINS WINNING. I cannot state this clearly enough. What bugs me? What has my "undies in a wad"? Is the manner in which it's written. I'm fine with Villains winning if it looks like the Heroes at least TRIED to foil them. Right now the arcs have us bluesiders running around like chickens with our heads lopped off. |
At the end of SSA4, though, Positron is gathering the Phalanx and organizing things, which tells me that SSA4 will be when heroes start making a come back. Unfortunately, too little too late, but we still have two more parts afterwards, giving heroes plenty of time to be inspired and motivated by Statesman's demise, regroup, pull off a "You crossed the line, villains" speech, and have an epic final battle where the player villains will lose, but the loss will probably open up more plots, schemes, and future victories, while the heroes finally have a moment to mourn and collect the pieces.
I'll preface my post by saying this: I have absolutely ZERO, I repeat, ZERO problems with villains winning, or losing by the skin of their teeth (aka the world came THAT close to ending!). I have a few redside characters myself, but I thought I'd make this clear before anyone things I'm just being a hater.
So...the SSAs. Yeah. I have to admit, after thinking over Part 4, I've come to the conclusion that these arcs are definitely NOT intended for folks already familiar with the lore. Why? Because those characters should be familiar with almost everything that happens, or should see the twist coming a mile away. This is painful because CoH is a world in which almost every super-hero trope we know of IS true. Why aren't people MORE Genre Savvy?
I'll do a count:
SSA-1: Heroes stop a plan to remove Synapse's power from him, but the grand-mastermind behind the scheme still has a backup, he just forgot to RTFM. References are made to the Lost's "masters", who anyone familiar with the lore should recognize as the Rikti.
Villains 1, Heroes 0
SSA-2: Darrin Wade instigates a raid on the Midnighter's Club with the help of the Rulu-Shin (anyone knowing the lore or has played redside knows this connection exists) to steal Tommy Arcanus' Skull, among other things. Villains steal the skull back, but not before some vital information is given to the head mastermind. Villains also get a shiny ransom from Numina for returning the skull. Heroes once again fall behind.
Villains 2, Heroes 0
SSA-3: Heroes are forced to fail to see through the obvious trap ever when Malaise kidnaps Alexis. Manticore insists on protecting her alone rather than having anyone help him, and thus fails miserably (more violation of common sense). The Heroes are distracted by Marshall Blitz trying to fling Warburg's nuclear missiles at Paragon, while Alexis is killed off-camera. By the time the Heroes organize, defeat Marshall Blitz, and then find Jean/Malaise, Alexis has been dead for some time, seemingly for the sole purpose of pissing people off.
Villains 3, Heroes 0.5 (I have to give the Heroes some credit for stopping the missiles, but WHY couldn't a separate group try to retrieve Alexis while that was happening?!)
SSA-4: Despite being captured and interrogated under lock and key, Malaise sets off an "Exactly-As-Planned" scheme by which he gets himself into Sister Psyche's mind and tries to kill her for reasons that are never explained besides him being "totally-off-his-rocker-evil". The Heroes save Psyche from being killed, but she's now trapped inside her own mind by a piece of Aurora Borealis' personality that wants to murder her, and the heroes cannot do a thing to help her, putting her out of commission for a while. Meanwhile, Manticore gets mind-warped by the Dirge of Chaos, Statesman is angry and Ms. Liberty is just shy of going full Vigilante (though it's not without justification)
Villains 4, Heroes 0.5
SSA-5: We know Statesman is somehow killed. This precludes anything the player could possibly do or think of that could be of any use or could possibly prevent the situation. Statesman bites the bullet no matter what the Heroes do, and are forced to watch as the villains get to laugh at them for failing to be useful yet again. Good job!
Final Tally Thusfar: Villains 5, Heroes 0.5
Maybe I'm being unfairly biased, but the writing in this arcs seems to force Blueside to keep their hands on the Idiot Ball at all times, and violates all forms of Common Sense to the point that you're beating a dead corpse into a bloody mess. At this point, I'm actually LOSING my motivation to continue the arc. I start asking myself "Besides wanting to see how it will end (which is already poisoned by the current track record), where's my motivation to continue if my character is going to be forced to fail no matter how hard I try?"
It seems like the only way to feel good about this is to play a villain and revel in the forced stupidity that the Heroes must endure because the powers-that-be decide it must be so. Yes, I have heard complaints from redsiders that they just feel like wheels in a machine. But at least they aren't forced to sit there and yell at their monitors while characters make blatantly obvious and bad mistakes left and right, with absolutely NO ability to have a say in the matter.
This isn't a complaint against the current arc and the amount of spectating you do. I rather liked SSA4 because you got to see interactions and dialogue between characters that develop them. If this means I have to watch, that's fine. But OVERALL, the fact that my character(s) are forced to have their IQ diminished because the writing said so feels demeaning, aggravating, insulting, depressing, etc, etc.
At this point I feel the only suitable compensation is if the Heroes get to go full Vigilante with Ms. Liberty and Longbow and the other Vindicators and curb-stomp the everloving CRAP out of whoever is responsible in the ultimate form of justice for this travesty. Because right now I feel like a total curb-stomp would be the only thing that would satisfy me right now.