SSA Favoritism or "Dammnit writers, throw Heroes a bone!"
By
Arbiter_Shade,
Posted on: 2011-12-17 19:57 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Yeah, I like how we're blaming the victim here. She was the target of a brutal and debilitating mental assault designed to render her DEAD simply by using her worst fears and nightmares to drive her comatose, because Malaise simply wanted to screw her up in the worst ways possible "for the lulz".|
Originally Posted by Zubenelgenubi
I call Shenanigan on that type of thinking. She CLEARLY acted in self-defense against a man who was rap1ng her mind and trying to murder her. Not to mention that she was acting as an officer of law enforcement at the time. No court in the country would convict her, and nobody could logically fault her.
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Killing him was self-defense, pure and simple. If you want to get technical it was suicide-by-cop, because he knew it would end that way.
Sister Psyche killed Malaise? Wow, that actually does make me want to run the arc. That ******* has had it forever.
That said, here we are again asking "Who will die?" and getting an awkward answer. Who will die? Malaise! Yes! Wait, no... Hold on, let me check... OK, yes, he will die, but he doesn't count, either. That question is starting to sound incredibly hollow. It should, instead, be phrased as "Who among the following nine people will die: Statesman, Miss Liberty, Back Alley Brawler, Positron, Synapse, Sister Psyche, Bastion, Manticore, Numina. People not on the list who die in the process of the story are to be disregarded for the purposes of answering this question."
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I always thought, that from the beginning that was the question Sam.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Sister Psyche killed Malaise? Wow, that actually does make me want to run the arc. That ******* has had it forever.
That said, here we are again asking "Who will die?" and getting an awkward answer. Who will die? Malaise! Yes! Wait, no... Hold on, let me check... OK, yes, he will die, but he doesn't count, either. That question is starting to sound incredibly hollow. It should, instead, be phrased as "Who among the following nine people will die: Statesman, Miss Liberty, Back Alley Brawler, Positron, Synapse, Sister Psyche, Bastion, Manticore, Numina. People not on the list who die in the process of the story are to be disregarded for the purposes of answering this question." |
"Who of the surviving eight will die"
Any others who die are just part of the story.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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That kind of makes the storyline even more cynical than it is, though. Heroes are generally defined as such because they help people and save them. Yet here we ask the question of who will die, but only the heroes matter. Them other peoples what die, them don't matter. It's an even more blatant case of emotional blackmail. The story REALLY wants us to care about these characters, but not out of some sense of good storytelling, but more so because them dying needs to be a tear-jerker. Feh.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I always thought, that from the beginning that was the question Sam.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Why can't you accept that the villains actually have a cohesive plan that is working perfectly for a change?
Because YOU can see the events coming does not in any way mean your characters can.
For example: Why would the heroes in this scenario think that anyone would be STUPID enough to murder the daughter of probably the most powerful hero on the planet? It catches the heroes off guard simply because it is, on the surface, an incredibly stupid thing for the villains to do. Think about it. Like him or hate him, would you want to be the guy Statesman is coming after because you killed his daughter?
In my opinion the arcs break down like this:
SSA1: Hero victory, but instead of being sent home with their tails between their legs, the Villains actually have a backup plan.
SSA2: Hero victory. They stopped what the Villains were trying to do, but he villains make it clear that it isn't over yet.
SSA3: Villain victory. Statesman's daughter is dead. Doesn't get more "bad guys win" than that.
SSA4: Villain victory. Malaise is dead, but he took Sister Psyche out of commision in the process. Could almost be a tie, but Sister Psyche fighting for her life, Statesman missing, and the Phalanx in disarray is a bigger hit to the Heroes than losing Malaise is to the Villains.
The problem with your assertion that the heroes are being idiots is your assumption that the heroes are familiar with superhero tropes. Which is kind of silly seeing as how they ARE a superhero trope.
In order for them to see everything coming, they would need to have access to metagame information that we have as players.
And furthermore, if the Heroes were reacting the way you think they should, the Villains would get a mudhole stomped in them, yet again.
The way it's playing out, the Villains get to win, and they get to make the Heroes look like chumps while they do it. Given the sheer number of times the reverse scenario has happened, it's about time the Villains get to win one.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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The story arc asks that yes, but that's no different than any other comic book storyline...|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That kind of makes the storyline even more cynical than it is, though. Heroes are generally defined as such because they help people and save them. Yet here we ask the question of who will die, but only the heroes matter. Them other peoples what die, them don't matter. It's an even more blatant case of emotional blackmail. The story REALLY wants us to care about these characters, but not out of some sense of good storytelling, but more so because them dying needs to be a tear-jerker. Feh.
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*Cover of Justice League Comic with the whole league on display*
"One Will Die!"
And I agree with Claws. There's a lot of people seeming to think because they know Superhero tropes, that the characters themselves know the tropes
When does Batman ever pull out the tropes and go "Look here. It's on the internet! We're a friggin trope and we're playing right into it."
As a mostly hero player, I have no problem with the villains winning one. Which they of course we knew they would when it was said "One will die"
Well, not win, but get in some lasting hits anyways. Heroes can still possibly "win" while taking loses, which counts as a villain win.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
A win for heroes: temporarily foiling the villain's *obvious* plan.
A win for villains: killing off heroes.
Other than having their current mustache twirling plan foiled what *REAL* losses have the villains taken? They even get to reclaim northern Mercy. Galaxy is toast, no ifs, ands, or buts.
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Right...|
Originally Posted by Zubenelgenubi
I call Shenanigan on that type of thinking. She CLEARLY acted in self-defense against a man who was rap1ng her mind and trying to murder her. Not to mention that she was acting as an officer of law enforcement at the time. No court in the country would convict her, and nobody could logically fault her.
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Player characters use their own bodies as a shield, taking everything Malaise threw at them and survived. Malaise is beaten.
- Malaise: "how could you beat me, heroes, it's an injustice, it is, it is..."
- Sister Psycho: "I gave you everything, you $#%&ing loser, and this is how you pay me back?! Never again!! You're finished, Jean! You hear me, finished!!!"
And then she kills him.
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Originally Posted by Issen
Yeah, I like how we're blaming the victim here. She was the target of a brutal and debilitating mental assault designed to render her DEAD simply by using her worst fears and nightmares to drive her comatose, because Malaise simply wanted to screw her up in the worst ways possible "for the lulz".
Killing him was self-defense, pure and simple. If you want to get technical it was suicide-by-cop, because he knew it would end that way. |
I'm not saying there aren't mitigating circumstances or that she should go to jail. I'm saying she has no business arresting bad guys until she realises how serious this is. Simply saying "I'm sorry, I lost control. It won't happen again," would clear her in my book. "Malaise had it coming," will not.
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It was standard procedure. A warning shot, to indicate that she was serious.|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
This is NOT self defense. A policeman is entitled to shoot back at a civilian trying to kill him. He is not entitled to empty his clip as the perp lies squirming on the ground just to make sure he's dead.
I'm not saying there aren't mitigating circumstances or that she should go to jail. I'm saying she has no business arresting bad guys until she realises how serious this is. Simply saying "I'm sorry, I lost control. It won't happen again," would clear her in my book. "Malaise had it coming," will not. |
She simply proceeded to fire six warning shots into the back of his head.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Genre Savvy would like to have a word with you.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
And I agree with Claws. There's a lot of people seeming to think because they know Superhero tropes, that the characters themselves know the tropes
When does Batman ever pull out the tropes and go "Look here. It's on the internet! We're a friggin trope and we're playing right into it." |
Your characters live in a world that has been populated by superheroes for around the past 100 years. There are numerous stories and records about conflicts between Heroes and Villains (the plaques, contact and mission dialogue, the back story behind Paragon City/The Rogue Isles, etc.) around that your characters would more than likely know about and have as a frame of reference.
Beyond that, the experience of the individual character comes into play. For example, I've got a character who has been fighting crime in Paragon City for over 10 years (his first step up into the direct 'superhero' scene was with the Outbreak and helping with the Rikti War). When he went in to the 4th WWD Arc, he picked up on the fact that Malaise was planning something; he avoids answering your questions, telling you more information, and basically stalls you until the Dirge hits. My character may not have known what Malaise was stalling them for until the sound-system activated, but it's pretty obvious that he was up to something.
Heroes don't see everything coming, but if you don't use previous arcs, dialogue, and information you've gathered to at least try to get an idea about what might be happening, the only trope that Hero will be using is this one.
Global - @El D
Servers - Protector
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Name one instance where PC heroes get to win over PC villains in a co-op story...|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The way it's playing out, the Villains get to win, and they get to make the Heroes look like chumps while they do it. Given the sheer number of times the reverse scenario has happened, it's about time the Villains get to win one.
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No one's saying villains should lose in their single player content. What heroes are asking is equal treatment, either by not looking like moronic losers shouting OHNOES in their story-arcs or *gasp* actually accomplishing something worthwhile post Issue 12!!
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Name one instance where PC villains get to win over PC heroes in a co-op story. Here's a hint: this arc isn't co-op.|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Name one instance where PC heroes get to win over PC villains in a co-op story...
No one's saying villains should lose in their single player content. What heroes are asking is equal treatment, either by not looking like moronic losers shouting OHNOES in their story-arcs or *gasp* actually accomplishing something worthwhile post Issue 12!! |
Now name the instances where anything villains accomplished is completely ignored by canon and/or made useless by NPC actions offscreen in closing mission dialogue or context elsewhere.
I'm not saying that the way the characters are handled is correct - I'm just saying that it's not exactly unique, and the comment "throw Heroes a bone" grates especially when the arc isn't even done yet.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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To quote NCIS...|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Right...
Player characters use their own bodies as a shield, taking everything Malaise threw at them and survived. Malaise is beaten. - Malaise: "how could you beat me, heroes, it's an injustice, it is, it is..." - Sister Psycho: "I gave you everything, you $#%&ing loser, and this is how you pay me back?! Never again!! You're finished, Jean! You hear me, finished!!!" And then she kills him. This is NOT self defense. A policeman is entitled to shoot back at a civilian trying to kill him. He is not entitled to empty his clip as the perp lies squirming on the ground just to make sure he's dead. I'm not saying there aren't mitigating circumstances or that she should go to jail. I'm saying she has no business arresting bad guys until she realises how serious this is. Simply saying "I'm sorry, I lost control. It won't happen again," would clear her in my book. "Malaise had it coming," will not. |
Gibbs to McGee as he aimed his weapon at the now subdued perp "McGee! If you wanted to kill him, you should of done it while he was running."
So the question is, if you want to apply real world laws to a comic book universe, would be, was Malaise sub dued yet?
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I believe he was subdued. Other posters seem to disagree. If that's what we're arguing, I'll step away. But if the argument drifts into "Malaise had it coming," I'll be baaack.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
So the question is, if you want to apply real world laws to a comic book universe, would be, was Malaise sub dued yet?
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"Subdued" is tricky when all it takes is a stray angry thought to attack; that's why you'll likely get disagreement.|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
I believe he was subdued. Other posters seem to disagree. If that's what we're arguing, I'll step away. But if the argument drifts into "Malaise had it coming," I'll be baaack.
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I was mostly just wanting to get the "six warning shots into the back of his head" line out there, though.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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Acknowledged, and properly quoted for you.
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Originally Posted by Siolfir
I was mostly just wanting to get the "six warning shots into the back of his head". line out there, though
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If we go with that, then every character who is genre savvy would also know, death means nothing, that even though Sister Psyche killed Malaise, he can just as easily return.|
Originally Posted by El__D
Genre Savvy would like to have a word with you.
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"I doubt that either of them died."
"We saw it this time."
"You saw it last time too."
"What's the old saying, 'Believe half of what you see...'"
"'...and none of which you hear.'"
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
I'm with Claws 100%. I've played all the hero arcs multiple times and all of the villain arcs at least once. I'm really enjoying them so far on both sides. I actually think the players come out on top on both sides in all the arcs. Even #3 is a pyrrhic victory for the pc-hero since they get to arrest both Blitz and Malaise.
"Heroes" versus the "Mastermind" is definitely a little lopsided in the mastermind's favor but not because he wins each time but because he doesn't really lose anything in the first or second arc and wins big in the 3rd. In the 4th arc though, the BIG thing he loses is his identity. I'm assuming he realizes that though and planned for it.
So going into #5 the Phalanx now recognizes the danger, knows who is responsible, and has a plan even if they are down to five able-bodied heroes - six as they recruit the pc-hero to help them. Darrin has managed to whittle away 2 FP members but he better have a REALLY good plan or he's toast and my villain will simply abandon him to avoid the massive retaliation.
Of course we know that Darrin does have something planned since Stateman dies... somehow.
I can't wait. I'm really enjoying the story.
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Yup, and I am not even sure how that is in question. Malaise had forced his way into her mind and was intent on killing off not only her and REPLACING her with the evil version of Aurora, thus using her body for whatever evil ends he had in mind, but he was ALSO trying to kill off the person who came to rescue her. At this point she had TRIED to protect Malaise, she had vouched for him and she had believed that he could be a better person. THAT was his 'warning shot', as it were. He had been given a second chance, and proceeded to spit on his biggest champion, Psyche, and then mind-**** her.|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Sister Psyche was acting in self-defense.
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About the only people who can argue otherwise are those overly cynical people or the hero-haters who bring up every thing they can find to make the heroes look bad.
"I have something to say! It's better to burn out then to fade away!"
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The heroes have been accomplishing worthwhile things the entire time the game has existed. Paragon City is still standing, in spite of the number of plots to destroy it or take it over. That means they've been winning the entire time.|
Originally Posted by Zemblanity
Name one instance where PC heroes get to win over PC villains in a co-op story...
No one's saying villains should lose in their single player content. What heroes are asking is equal treatment, either by not looking like moronic losers shouting OHNOES in their story-arcs or *gasp* actually accomplishing something worthwhile post Issue 12!! |
The only time the villains ever get to win is in an alternate reality, or in the future, or any number of other hand-waving excuses as to why Lord Recluse or the player character is not now sitting on a throne in Atlas Park. All it takes for the heroes to score a victory is for nothing to change at all.
The villain characters have been treated like chumps for the entire existence of villain characters. Only recently has there been the option to not be just another Arachnos flunkie. Every time there is co-op content released, the villains get to tag along with the heroes and help them out because there is a bigger threat, instead of taking advantage of the heroes' distraction to further their own goals like a real villain would do.
I find it hilarious that the first time the villains get to have a real, tangible victory the heroes start whining about it.
And for the record, killing Miss Liberty before the heroes arrive is just smart on the villains' part. If you snuff her the second a hero breaches your defenses, you win, no matter what the hero does from there on out.
Remember Adrian Veidt in Watchmen? I quote: "Do you really think I would be telling you my plan if there was a chance you could do anything to stop it? I triggered it 35 minutes ago."
Instead of pulling a grandiose "I'm going to kill her and you can't stop me! MUAHAHAHAHAHA!" scene, they just killed her before you showed up.
Yes, Malaise was obviously stalling in his interrogation. But how is the PC hero supposed to know that he was stalling until the Dirge could be utilized, forcing Sister Psyche to use her powers to keep herself, Aurora and the PCs free of it's effects, which allowed Malaise to use his powers? There is simply no way the hero could know what the plan was before it was implemented.
It was a good plan that worked out perfectly. It wasn't the heroes being idiots because of the simple fact that the only way they could have known what was going to happen is either A) They are omnipotent, or B) They have access to metagame information possessed by the players.
Also, Psyche killing Malaise WAS self-defense. He was in the process of either killing her, or putting someone else in control of her body. She is no more a murderer than a police officer who kills a suspect that is actively shooting at them. DO you really expect her to say "Oh, I'm a hero, so I'm just going to let him kill me and get the moral victory"? Hell no, she's going to preserve her own life.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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In other words, all the heroes get for a victory is that things remain the same. Just what the villains got. Until now.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
... All it takes for the heroes to score a victory is for nothing to change at all.
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No, not at all. I think you might need to reread that.
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Originally Posted by Ogi
In other words, all the heroes get for a victory is that things remain the same. Just what the villains got. Until now.
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When have the heroes made any permanent wins against villains? Thwarted villainy, yes. Actually won? |
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
No, not at all. I think you might need to reread that.
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All the villains are still there and they don't even seem to have any skin in the SSA game, blueside can only lose it by even more now.
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