Entrance Requirements for iTrials

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

Yeah, I joined a league which was planning to do MoM the other night and only after a failed attempt to LFG we realised there was a lvl 49 in the league

Eco

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

Well, people playing the Incarnate content shouldn't have to move their toons to Exhalted just to avoid this problem. Either a VIP-only zone for Incarnates to gather, as you suggest, or an adequate set of league management functions would take care of this. For example, a new command called Invite to Incarnate League would do the trick. It would simply fail if it was tried on a non-VIP player or on a VIP currently teamed with any non-VIPs. Problem solved.

Another band-aid would be to disband every team in the league, then have the members all queue up for the incarnate trial together. You might lose a few people in the shuffle, but it's better than spending 30 minutes trying to figure out who it is who's holding everyone up.

That would require an unlikely change in player customs. Despite how the devs intended the LFG queue system to be used, the fact remains that 99% of the time, pre-formed teams/leagues gather before entering the queue, and that method isn't likely to ever change. Instead, providing a variant of a command already used as the primary lever, one guaranteed not to lead to a fail state, would be much more effective, I think.

The truth is that not all iTrials are created equal in terms of their level range and difficulty level. It is quite possible that the league leader was attempting a higher level trial. For example, BAF, Lambda and Keyes are all trials where you face level 54 AVs. In the UGT, you face 54+1 AVs. For the two newest trials, you face 54+2 AVs. As someone mentioned, the greater the level difference between you and an enemy, many of your powers become less effective. Additionally, iTrial fights with AVs are timed. This places even more emphasis on having enough DPS in a league to take down the AV and be able to compensate for any setbacks you may encounter (league wipes can be fairly common on UGT for example). Another example, the last AV fight on MoM trial is 3 minutes only. This contrasts most AV fights in the rest of the game, where even a weaker team can tough it out over time.

As to your concern about how to get started with iTrials, it is not that difficult. I would not take this single experience and assume people are selective about levels on all available trials or that all leaders follow this practice. It is actually extremely easy to get your first level shift with your Alpha slot. BAF, Lambda and Keyes (more so since the changes) are all very suitable trials for a newly born 50. You can do these trials to unlock your Alpha slot or you can do Mender Ramiel's arc. Shards now drop from all available content. The Weekly Strike Target is another way to get salvage for higher tier Alpha powers. There are also numerous ways to convert Empyrean and Astral merits into salvage you can use to create abilities. I'm probably forgetting a few other options, but the point is there are a lot of them available to you, especially for Alpha abilities.

Personally, for BAF, Lambda and Keyes I will take any willing and able body. I enjoy the experience of having people brand new to trials come along and learn the basics. For UGT, I ask that people bring a character with at least one level shift if possible. That is my only requirement, otherwise any AT goes. I do this for a few reasons. First, I have found that because of the level gap, the more straight 50s I have on my league drastically increases the risk of a UGT failing. Second, being at least +1 puts you at the same gap that existed for the previous trials. I think this gap is reasonable since BAF, Lambda and Keyes can be challenging to a league of 50s but still manageable.

While I fully support providing people with a learning experience, such an experience is only really helpful if they can actually get through most of the trial. Otherwise, the only thing you learn is that you should probably try it again when you're stronger. This was very much the case when I tried MoM on beta. It became very obvious very quickly that a league of 50s was not suited to this trial, as we constantly died and couldn't even make it past the first GM in the first phase. (Note: in this trial there are 3 GMs in the first phase and 5 phases total).

Given the above, I don't think it's unreasonable for players to get at least one level shift to participate in trials that are level shifted themselves. Your first Alpha shift is arguably the easiest one to get due to the variety of options you have available. I know other leaders that might not ask for a single shift from everyone, but I have seen them try to compensate in other ways by asking people to switch to higher level characters until they feel there are enough of them to carry the 50s. That is one way of doing it, but in my opinion less fair. In the event that a large number of people want to bring their 50s for the iXP (and believe me, this does happen) it leaves you to pick and choose who should switch. This is why I go with +1s across the board as a minimum so I'm not stuck playing favorites. Regardless of how leaders handle this, realize that a lot of us are just trying to give the league a fighting chance in many cases and not actively shun people.

Thus, while there may not be a hard level restriction for these trials, by raising the level of the enemies it more or less creates one. That is, if people actually want to succeed at them on a standard PuG. I actually find it misleading that the game advertises that you can unlock your Alpha slot in MoM and TPN. Those trials are not suitable for people in the early stages of the Incarnate system at all. Meanwhile, TFs like Tin Mage and Apex have stricter requirements than all of the iTrials and a penalty in the form of a debuff if you don't have your Alpha slotted. Something about that doesn't seem right.

By not providing a level gate on these trials, it leaves it to the players to create them. Whether this is a good system or not, it means that you'll encounter more selectivity as the trials become more challenging and are higher level. If the selectivity isn't over level shifts, it'll make an appearance in other ways, such as AT selectivity.

I wouldn't read too much into this. Trial leaders can sometimes get umpteen tells at a time. It's easy for one to get lost in the shuffle, especially if you're dealing with questions in various channels and League Chat at the same time. Heck, maybe they went AFK. Maybe they crashed. I don't think it's a fair to automatically assume rudeness in this case.

Same. And if they put those restrictions on people they are inviting after I've joined, I quit.

Fixed that for you

Absolutely! This is why I think the COH player community is the best to play with of all the MMOs I've ever tried.

I have to say, however, that even a +3 level shift doesn't necessarily tell the whole story. I have a 50+3 Brute, and yet I still feel like I am underperforming in the iTrials somehow. I mean, when I see how long it takes for me to make any significant headway through those Victoria boss hitpoints, I have to wonder what I am doing wrong in terms of my toon's build. When I see the league chew through the mobs in UGT (including the AVs), I am fairly sure it isn't because of my breathtaking damage output.

As a Brute (StJ/WP) I should be able to take on a Victoria without dying, right? I usually have to flee fairly quickly, and it is frustrating (if not a little embarrassing).

My toon has all four auto accolade powers, 2444 HP, 117 End, is set-IO'ed out everywhere, with set bonuses providing 740+% regen rate, 250+% recovery rate, +40% recharge, +12% ToHit, full sets of Crushing Impact/Detonation/Multi-Strike, resistance and DEF from secondaries all hitting ED, all the global (unique) +Regen/+Recov/-KB/+ToHit/+DEF/+AtckRate proc IOs available. I have tier 4 Spiritual, tier 3 Barrier, tier 3 Pyronic, tier 3 Reactive, and two different tier 3 Lore pets (including Warworks which has one of the highest dps averages). Clearly I am not lacking in the fundamentals. So why do I almost feel like a support squishie during the iTrials? Why am I getting one-shotted by AVs while the Dominator next to me is at full HP during the entire fight?

I doubt I am the only one with an underperforming level-shifted toon regularly joining iTrials and only barely pulling its weight. How in the world do other players who don't even bother with set IO's manage? Do they not bother with iTrials at all? Are the iTrials the gauntlet of pain that eventually turns every casual player into a Mids-dependent, minmaxing, optimized set bonus junkie?

Your active level shift can be found in the combat attributes in the top group.

Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters

For what it's worth, I refuse to take my blue-side main through the Underground trial any more... He's a reasonably well-engineered WP/DB tank with and IO set-build, T4 Barrier, Alpha and Judgement, and T3 Lore and Interface.

I've successfully thrown him at just about everything else in the game, but he still gets eaten alive by the Underground AVs and their effects... It's just painful to try to play him through that mess. So, your "paper brute" isn't alone.

To be perhaps excessively political, IMO the primary issue with the LFG tool is that it assumes that leagues organized as true democracies versus autocracies have equal chances of success.

I would say about 1/2 to 1/3rd of the victory chances in incarnate content rests on having a strong leader. This person's role isn't just to direct players. They also have to set the parameters for badge completion, organize teams, handle criticism from outspoken members, react to mistakes made by the league, and serve as a central cheerleader who encourages people to come back.

I am, I think, a pretty good player. I am NOT a strong leader. Put me in that position with 23 other players and I will do anything to get away from it. One time the LFG tool made me the league leader of a Lambda, and, unable to figure out how to move players from team to team, I just hit the Quit League button to escape. I also got tagged as Desdemona's escort one time, and though I toughed it out til the end, I spent the whole trial worried I would mess up and have 23 angry players screaming at me. I am grateful for the players who step up to the plate to perform these roles. I think a lot of players are very uncomfortable filling them.


I should add one thing that I haven't really seen commented on, unrelated to the quote above. Part of the reason trials have toggle-button boss difficulty is that if the league runs in and half the team quickly wipes, any Lore pets they had will be dead for the remainder of the fight. This is a HUGE loss in DPS, and I very strongly suspect its why I have only ever seen the end boss of the Underground defeated in the first two minutes with very few deaths, or stuck in a 15 minute stalemate with players unable to make its HP budge.

This. A lot of players don't realize the magnitude of the purple patch across a sizable level disparity and how it affects their ability to contribute. Now that we're getting into +6 territory for unshifted characters, the closest thing CoH has to gear score is actually worth paying attention to on the harder trials. Also, a player with a shifted character is assumed to have at least some experience with how trials work. We're about five months in from Keyes and eight months in from Lambda and BAF - if the team leader doesn't want to take the time to explain the trial format to a team of unshifted unknowns, that's his prerogative.

If you bring a useful character to a trial, you will get invited. The onus is on you to make sure that character is useful, and a single level shift will go a long way toward that.

Meanwhile Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman spend two minutes chucking Darkseid across the galaxy while Thor, Luke Cage and Spider Woman stop a Skrull invasion dead in it's tracks before it even started. And believe you me, those superheroes dont give one iota about complicated defense mechanics. And they dont get a second or third chance to fail either.

This is where the Incarnate trials go all wrong. It's MMO limitations versus being at the pinnacle of your superheroic career. The trials should have MASSES of baddies that every participant/AT can take on in small groups via simultaneous complete objectives before everyone turns to focus on the boss(es). It should be a fun, engaging thrill ride for all rather than "fail 5 times, learn the mechanics and THEN farm the event successfully for all time - until the Devs nerf it later."

Again, focus on empowering the players to enjoy, embrace others wanting to partake, and just let rip with those newfound incarnate abilities rather than constantly reminding them to be more clever, restrained and tightly orchestrated.

You're supposed to be a ******* superhero for chrissakes! Dont hide from the boss behind the reactor until he is fully debuffed, pick it up and throw it at him! What's the matter with you?!

I can accept your point that the mechanics of what it takes to successfully complete these MMO trials sometimes don't match the romantic ideals of what superheroes manage to do in comic books.

But just to play Devil's Advocate one could argue that groups of players having to figure out the best way to complete a MMO trial is in itself a fun gaming activity regardless of its relationship to a form of fictional literature. Sometimes it's simply hard to translate abstract source material into a format that can be used to create workable MMO content. If you can figure out how to perfectly capture the grandeur of your comic book scenarios and squish them into the confines of a MMO I'm sure the Devs of this game would love to talk to you about it.

That already exists in BAF. And unless the league is specifically going for the badge, people generally prefer to pull the AVs to one spot and hammer down on them together rather than split up and take them on individually.

Now allow me to be a jerk about it:

I don't want to carry your mooching ***. I don't expect anyone to carry me, and I don't expect to carry anyone else. BAF, Lambda and Keyes still form frequently. Run those, get yourself a level shift or two, then ask again to join a higher level trial for higher level people. I'm fully behind any leader who insists on level shifts for UG, MoM or TPN, as well as any badge attempts on the easier trials.

Now if someone is excluding you from BAF, Lambda or Keyes on account of a lack of level shifts, then it's probably because a) they think they need the level shifts for the trial to succeed, which means their league sucks and has to rely on brute force to win, or b) they think including only level shifted people will make the trial go faster, which it doesn't, because the pickier you are the longer it takes to form the stupid thing. Either way, they're not someone whose league I'd want to be joining.

You also have the right to suffer the consequences of your actions.

I disagree with the bold part though. There are some reactions that will land you on death row.

And now we know why the world is in such a lousy situation.

When did "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" turn into "Do unto others the same crap they do to you"?

Right, and BAF is the most popular Incarnate trial the devs nerfed to encourage players to try the other trials... And look, how well that worked! Never mind that the lone wolf players are pulling the AVs to one spot because its more convenient for them (and on a tennis court of all things! How bloody anticlimactic for the site of a final battle). And then we are back to Ye Olde Follow the Leader Taking Down Hami dilemma we experienced years ago - and that got nerfed too...

Come on and wise up. There is a group of select players that LOVE being the rare few able to maneuver through these overcomplicated game mechanics and dont care how many lesser players follow in their wake taking out the scraps and leftovers. That isnt fun gameplay everyone can enjoy; its LAME...

Much as I love a good challenge, I also love community gameplay. Chasing after the few lone wolves leading the charge in these Incarnate trials is not worthy of lvl 50+ content. Sorry.

Just because you can't emulate it completely is no reason to make a hard left and floor it out of the general neighborhood at top speed.

Being on a trial not only imperfectly emulates the feel of a superhero, it goes more for the feel of 1984. The cutscene at the beginning should be in faux black-and-white, and a should have someone in a military suit match back in forth in front of the league forcing us to repeat over and over "As an individual, I am unimportant. My significance is nothing in the face of the collective." She could even have the Frau Farbissina accent and be swinging her riding crop while we repeated the deprotagonization mantra.