Entrance Requirements for iTrials
Another thing that might happen is what happened to me when i first started the incarnate progress. I did BAF after BAF, swaggering about with my newly +1 toon, feeling all uber and godlike, but as I'm not very good with minmaxing and knowing what numbners are etc, I didn't take much notice of the fact that my damage etc didn't actually seem to be appreciably better than before. Then someone helpfully pointed out that I had to actually slot the abilities, not just craft them
I could concevably have got all the way to a faux +3 without realising, I reckon. I'm a bit dim like that.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
There is another reason why league leaders begin to insist on at least a +1 level shift on iTrial toons: it removes the possibility of inadvertantly inviting a non-VIP to the league.
And lest anyone underestimate the frustration that builds from trying to form a full BAF or Keyes league and not being able to enter the queue because one or more people are not VIP (and either don't realize it or won't fess up to it), it can ruin one's evening. One particular league I had joined wasted a good 30 minutes trying to work this issue out. The league leader (with virtually the entire support of the league, mind you) began trying to weed out players that weren't at least +1 just out of desperation. So before we ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by an inadequate set of iTrial league formation tools, it might help to know that there are some valid reasons for this kind of invite filtering. |
![Big Grin](images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
Sooner or later a VIP iTrial staging zone will need to be made...or just play on Exhalted.
There is another reason why league leaders begin to insist on at least a +1 level shift on iTrial toons: it removes the possibility of inadvertantly inviting a non-VIP to the league.
And lest anyone underestimate the frustration that builds from trying to form a full BAF or Keyes league and not being able to enter the queue because one or more people are not VIP (and either don't realize it or won't fess up to it), it can ruin one's evening. One particular league I had joined wasted a good 30 minutes trying to work this issue out. The league leader (with virtually the entire support of the league, mind you) began trying to weed out players that weren't at least +1 just out of desperation. So before we ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by an inadequate set of iTrial league formation tools, it might help to know that there are some valid reasons for this kind of invite filtering. |
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
![Smile](images/smilies/smile.gif)
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
Well, people playing the Incarnate content shouldn't have to move their toons to Exhalted just to avoid this problem. Either a VIP-only zone for Incarnates to gather, as you suggest, or an adequate set of league management functions would take care of this. For example, a new command called Invite to Incarnate League would do the trick. It would simply fail if it was tried on a non-VIP player or on a VIP currently teamed with any non-VIPs. Problem solved.
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The Paladin
Steel Canyon, Virtue
Exalted
@Paladin
Another band-aid would be to disband every team in the league, then have the members all queue up for the incarnate trial together. You might lose a few people in the shuffle, but it's better than spending 30 minutes trying to figure out who it is who's holding everyone up.
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NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
How is a level 50 support character going to get to level 50+ or higher if they are not even allowed in an iTrial. Yes, I know I could do a ton of task forces, etc but the iTrials tend to be a quicker way. I have seen many a person reach level 50, and start iTrials without first unlocking their Alpha slot.
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As to your concern about how to get started with iTrials, it is not that difficult. I would not take this single experience and assume people are selective about levels on all available trials or that all leaders follow this practice. It is actually extremely easy to get your first level shift with your Alpha slot. BAF, Lambda and Keyes (more so since the changes) are all very suitable trials for a newly born 50. You can do these trials to unlock your Alpha slot or you can do Mender Ramiel's arc. Shards now drop from all available content. The Weekly Strike Target is another way to get salvage for higher tier Alpha powers. There are also numerous ways to convert Empyrean and Astral merits into salvage you can use to create abilities. I'm probably forgetting a few other options, but the point is there are a lot of them available to you, especially for Alpha abilities.
Personally, for BAF, Lambda and Keyes I will take any willing and able body. I enjoy the experience of having people brand new to trials come along and learn the basics. For UGT, I ask that people bring a character with at least one level shift if possible. That is my only requirement, otherwise any AT goes. I do this for a few reasons. First, I have found that because of the level gap, the more straight 50s I have on my league drastically increases the risk of a UGT failing. Second, being at least +1 puts you at the same gap that existed for the previous trials. I think this gap is reasonable since BAF, Lambda and Keyes can be challenging to a league of 50s but still manageable.
While I fully support providing people with a learning experience, such an experience is only really helpful if they can actually get through most of the trial. Otherwise, the only thing you learn is that you should probably try it again when you're stronger. This was very much the case when I tried MoM on beta. It became very obvious very quickly that a league of 50s was not suited to this trial, as we constantly died and couldn't even make it past the first GM in the first phase. (Note: in this trial there are 3 GMs in the first phase and 5 phases total).
Given the above, I don't think it's unreasonable for players to get at least one level shift to participate in trials that are level shifted themselves. Your first Alpha shift is arguably the easiest one to get due to the variety of options you have available. I know other leaders that might not ask for a single shift from everyone, but I have seen them try to compensate in other ways by asking people to switch to higher level characters until they feel there are enough of them to carry the 50s. That is one way of doing it, but in my opinion less fair. In the event that a large number of people want to bring their 50s for the iXP (and believe me, this does happen) it leaves you to pick and choose who should switch. This is why I go with +1s across the board as a minimum so I'm not stuck playing favorites. Regardless of how leaders handle this, realize that a lot of us are just trying to give the league a fighting chance in many cases and not actively shun people.
Thus, while there may not be a hard level restriction for these trials, by raising the level of the enemies it more or less creates one. That is, if people actually want to succeed at them on a standard PuG. I actually find it misleading that the game advertises that you can unlock your Alpha slot in MoM and TPN. Those trials are not suitable for people in the early stages of the Incarnate system at all. Meanwhile, TFs like Tin Mage and Apex have stricter requirements than all of the iTrials and a penalty in the form of a debuff if you don't have your Alpha slotted. Something about that doesn't seem right.
By not providing a level gate on these trials, it leaves it to the players to create them. Whether this is a good system or not, it means that you'll encounter more selectivity as the trials become more challenging and are higher level. If the selectivity isn't over level shifts, it'll make an appearance in other ways, such as AT selectivity.
Originally Posted by Irish Fury
The part that bothered me about the OPs story was that the leader never responded after they found out you were level 50. It takes all of 15 seconds to send a polite reply explaining why they prefer level shifted toons.
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![](http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h7/Amygdala27/sigglow-1.png)
Leader of Renaissance de la Veritas
Moderator of ChampioNexus
Amygdala's Guide to the Cathedral of Pain Trial
Great write up Amygdala.
Personally, I just police myself, trying to only bring appropriately level shifted characters to the right iTrials.
BAF and LAM: Easy enough, I'll bring any character to them. If the league is mostly +0s, I'll swap to something higher to avoid the potential failure.
Keyes: Now that it is easier, I'll bring anything as well.
Underground: I always make sure I'm bringing at least a +1 or +2 Incarnate as when fighting Level 54+1 AVs, those level differences really do a lot to decrease my damage.
TPN/MoM: Level 54+2 AVs, currently, I only bring +2 or +3 characters on these, to make sure the level difference modifier versus the AVs isn't too extreme.
As for what others do, that is all their free choice. I 'might' politely duck out of a harder iTrial before it starts if I see there are too many non-shifted characters and it looks like it might become a potential failure (on an Underground, or possibly the newer iTrials), but other than that, I really don't care what other people bring, although I wouldn't begrudge league formers for putting up their own 'requirement' for joining 'their' trial.
But I very much welcome to 'all who are willing come' attitude most exhibit, and think it is a great tribute to the community of our game.
Member of:
Repeat Offenders Network - The Largest Coalition Network in the Game, across Virtue, Freedom, Justice and Exalted. Open to all, check us out.
Current Team Project: Pending
But I very much welcome to 'all who are willing come' attitude most exhibit, and think it is a great tribute to the community of our game.
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I have to say, however, that even a +3 level shift doesn't necessarily tell the whole story. I have a 50+3 Brute, and yet I still feel like I am underperforming in the iTrials somehow. I mean, when I see how long it takes for me to make any significant headway through those Victoria boss hitpoints, I have to wonder what I am doing wrong in terms of my toon's build. When I see the league chew through the mobs in UGT (including the AVs), I am fairly sure it isn't because of my breathtaking damage output.
As a Brute (StJ/WP) I should be able to take on a Victoria without dying, right? I usually have to flee fairly quickly, and it is frustrating (if not a little embarrassing).
My toon has all four auto accolade powers, 2444 HP, 117 End, is set-IO'ed out everywhere, with set bonuses providing 740+% regen rate, 250+% recovery rate, +40% recharge, +12% ToHit, full sets of Crushing Impact/Detonation/Multi-Strike, resistance and DEF from secondaries all hitting ED, all the global (unique) +Regen/+Recov/-KB/+ToHit/+DEF/+AtckRate proc IOs available. I have tier 4 Spiritual, tier 3 Barrier, tier 3 Pyronic, tier 3 Reactive, and two different tier 3 Lore pets (including Warworks which has one of the highest dps averages). Clearly I am not lacking in the fundamentals. So why do I almost feel like a support squishie during the iTrials? Why am I getting one-shotted by AVs while the Dominator next to me is at full HP during the entire fight?
I doubt I am the only one with an underperforming level-shifted toon regularly joining iTrials and only barely pulling its weight. How in the world do other players who don't even bother with set IO's manage? Do they not bother with iTrials at all? Are the iTrials the gauntlet of pain that eventually turns every casual player into a Mids-dependent, minmaxing, optimized set bonus junkie?
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller
![](http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g151/vg-mmorpg/ForumAvatars/snowglobesig.png)
![](http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g151/vg-mmorpg/ForumAvatars/SnowGlobe_sigprotest_zps7dee0180.png)
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
As a Brute (StJ/WP) I should be able to take on a Victoria without dying, right? I usually have to flee fairly quickly, and it is frustrating (if not a little embarrassing).
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I've successfully thrown him at just about everything else in the game, but he still gets eaten alive by the Underground AVs and their effects... It's just painful to try to play him through that mess. So, your "paper brute" isn't alone.
![Confused](images/smilies/confused.gif)
@Brightfires - @Talisander
That chick what plays the bird-things...
That would require an unlikely change in player customs. Despite how the devs intended the LFG queue system to be used, the fact remains that 99% of the time, pre-formed teams/leagues gather before entering the queue, and that method isn't likely to ever change. Instead, providing a variant of a command already used as the primary lever, one guaranteed not to lead to a fail state, would be much more effective, I think.
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To be perhaps excessively political, IMO the primary issue with the LFG tool is that it assumes that leagues organized as true democracies versus autocracies have equal chances of success.
I would say about 1/2 to 1/3rd of the victory chances in incarnate content rests on having a strong leader. This person's role isn't just to direct players. They also have to set the parameters for badge completion, organize teams, handle criticism from outspoken members, react to mistakes made by the league, and serve as a central cheerleader who encourages people to come back.
I am, I think, a pretty good player. I am NOT a strong leader. Put me in that position with 23 other players and I will do anything to get away from it. One time the LFG tool made me the league leader of a Lambda, and, unable to figure out how to move players from team to team, I just hit the Quit League button to escape. I also got tagged as Desdemona's escort one time, and though I toughed it out til the end, I spent the whole trial worried I would mess up and have 23 angry players screaming at me. I am grateful for the players who step up to the plate to perform these roles. I think a lot of players are very uncomfortable filling them.
I should add one thing that I haven't really seen commented on, unrelated to the quote above. Part of the reason trials have toggle-button boss difficulty is that if the league runs in and half the team quickly wipes, any Lore pets they had will be dead for the remainder of the fight. This is a HUGE loss in DPS, and I very strongly suspect its why I have only ever seen the end boss of the Underground defeated in the first two minutes with very few deaths, or stuck in a 15 minute stalemate with players unable to make its HP budge.
It's easy enough to get +1 doing TFs. I don't know why you would bother going into a trial without that.
Not only will you appease those few groups that want higher people, but will also remove a good deal of the frustration and cut down the number of times you need to run the grind. |
If you bring a useful character to a trial, you will get invited. The onus is on you to make sure that character is useful, and a single level shift will go a long way toward that.
PenanceжTriage
I'm reposting my comment from the MoM thread because it's more relevent/on-topic here (I think):
TPN is actually far less complicated than MOM in terms of mechanics. It's just a matter of efficiency and tenacity. Both trials were completed during beta, after strategies were figured out. So please don't just say "It's too hard" then go back to running BAF and Lambda.
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This is where the Incarnate trials go all wrong. It's MMO limitations versus being at the pinnacle of your superheroic career. The trials should have MASSES of baddies that every participant/AT can take on in small groups via simultaneous complete objectives before everyone turns to focus on the boss(es). It should be a fun, engaging thrill ride for all rather than "fail 5 times, learn the mechanics and THEN farm the event successfully for all time - until the Devs nerf it later."
Again, focus on empowering the players to enjoy, embrace others wanting to partake, and just let rip with those newfound incarnate abilities rather than constantly reminding them to be more clever, restrained and tightly orchestrated.
You're supposed to be a ******* superhero for chrissakes! Dont hide from the boss behind the reactor until he is fully debuffed, pick it up and throw it at him! What's the matter with you?!
I'm reposting my comment from the MoM thread because it's more relevent/on-topic here (I think):
Meanwhile Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman spend two minutes chucking Darkseid across the galaxy while Thor, Luke Cage and Spider Woman stop a Skrull invasion dead in it's tracks before it even started. And believe you me, those superheroes dont give one iota about complicated defense mechanics. And they dont get a second or third chance to fail either. This is where the Incarnate trials go all wrong. It's MMO limitations versus being at the pinnacle of your superheroic career. The trials should have MASSES of baddies that every participant/AT can take on in small groups via simultaneous complete objectives before everyone turns to focus on the boss(es). It should be a fun, engaging thrill ride for all rather than "fail 5 times, learn the mechanics and THEN farm the event successfully for all time - until the Devs nerf it later." Again, focus on empowering the players to enjoy, embrace others wanting to partake, and just let rip with those newfound incarnate abilities rather than constantly reminding them to be more clever, restrained and tightly orchestrated. You're supposed to be a ******* superhero for chrissakes! Dont hide from the boss behind the reactor until he is fully debuffed, pick it up and throw it at him! What's the matter with you?! |
But just to play Devil's Advocate one could argue that groups of players having to figure out the best way to complete a MMO trial is in itself a fun gaming activity regardless of its relationship to a form of fictional literature. Sometimes it's simply hard to translate abstract source material into a format that can be used to create workable MMO content. If you can figure out how to perfectly capture the grandeur of your comic book scenarios and squish them into the confines of a MMO I'm sure the Devs of this game would love to talk to you about it.
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
Loth 50 Fire/Rad Controller [1392 Badges] [300 non-AE Souvenirs]
Ryver 50 Ele� Blaster [1392 Badges]
Silandra 50 Peacebringer [1138 Badges] [No Redside Badges]
--{=====> Virtue ♀
Everyone has a different definition of fun. Some play chess, others play Call of Duty.
I've already outlined one league event where x # of teams go to the four corners of a map and work together to take out X # of AVs simultaneously before converging on the big boss(es) in the main/final staging area... What more do you want?
Want a more detailed example? Get people to work in multiple small groups where they feel helpful and personally involved before everyone unites against the bigger threat. A trial with four AVs defeated simultaneously followed by a giant monster fight (like Lusca, for example) would be a great start. It feels big, epic, all-inclusive and superheroic - and it will bring the VIP subscriptions in droves. Fleeing from one single AV (or chasing after another who moves like he's got ants in thepants) is nobodys idea of fun or engaging superhero content (unless thats what you've come to expect from playing MMO dungeon raids for years - and you should be worried when the same game mechanics in one high level trial are used again in the new opening tutorial starter zone... If that doesn't make you feel like the Incarnate trials are an ynnecessary reset button for your lvl 50 toon, I dont know what will. That alone was a really bad design choice). Warrior foot soldiers scramble for cover; modern-age superheroes stand their ground.
The devs need to raise the bar on fun, all-inclusive Incarnate gameplay; not mimic the same old raiding mechanics that other games are doing.
De minimis non curat Lex Luthor.
A bunch of stuff that explains why people would exclude fresh 50s from trials without being jerky about it.
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I don't want to carry your mooching ***. I don't expect anyone to carry me, and I don't expect to carry anyone else. BAF, Lambda and Keyes still form frequently. Run those, get yourself a level shift or two, then ask again to join a higher level trial for higher level people. I'm fully behind any leader who insists on level shifts for UG, MoM or TPN, as well as any badge attempts on the easier trials.
Now if someone is excluding you from BAF, Lambda or Keyes on account of a lack of level shifts, then it's probably because a) they think they need the level shifts for the trial to succeed, which means their league sucks and has to rely on brute force to win, or b) they think including only level shifted people will make the trial go faster, which it doesn't, because the pickier you are the longer it takes to form the stupid thing. Either way, they're not someone whose league I'd want to be joining.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
There was a time when I might have agreed with you, but that time has passed.
I think everyone has every right to be rude if they so choose. I also think that anyone that does not like said behavior has every right to react as they see fit. For instance, freedom of speech, if you have it, does not mean "Freedom from being offended" or "Freedom from hearing rude comments". |
I disagree with the bold part though. There are some reactions that will land you on death row.
While I applaud your sticking to your morals, I must also stick to mine.
Sometimes rude must be fought with rude. Or Arthur. You can fight anything with Arthur. |
When did "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" turn into "Do unto others the same crap they do to you"?
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
I play a stalker as my main and this happens to me once a week on freedom.
Hence why I am slowly moving all my toons to virtue because the playerbase on Virtue are nicer people.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
That already exists in BAF. And unless the league is specifically going for the badge, people generally prefer to pull the AVs to one spot and hammer down on them together rather than split up and take them on individually.
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Come on and wise up. There is a group of select players that LOVE being the rare few able to maneuver through these overcomplicated game mechanics and dont care how many lesser players follow in their wake taking out the scraps and leftovers. That isnt fun gameplay everyone can enjoy; its LAME...
Much as I love a good challenge, I also love community gameplay. Chasing after the few lone wolves leading the charge in these Incarnate trials is not worthy of lvl 50+ content. Sorry.
But just to play Devil's Advocate one could argue that groups of players having to figure out the best way to complete a MMO trial is in itself a fun gaming activity regardless of its relationship to a form of fictional literature. Sometimes it's simply hard to translate abstract source material into a format that can be used to create workable MMO content. If you can figure out how to perfectly capture the grandeur of your comic book scenarios and squish them into the confines of a MMO I'm sure the Devs of this game would love to talk to you about it.
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Being on a trial not only imperfectly emulates the feel of a superhero, it goes more for the feel of 1984. The cutscene at the beginning should be in faux black-and-white, and a should have someone in a military suit match back in forth in front of the league forcing us to repeat over and over "As an individual, I am unimportant. My significance is nothing in the face of the collective." She could even have the Frau Farbissina accent and be swinging her riding crop while we repeated the deprotagonization mantra.
There is another reason why league leaders begin to insist on at least a +1 level shift on iTrial toons: it removes the possibility of inadvertantly inviting a non-VIP to the league.
And lest anyone underestimate the frustration that builds from trying to form a full BAF or Keyes league and not being able to enter the queue because one or more people are not VIP (and either don't realize it or won't fess up to it), it can ruin one's evening. One particular league I had joined wasted a good 30 minutes trying to work this issue out. The league leader (with virtually the entire support of the league, mind you) began trying to weed out players that weren't at least +1 just out of desperation.
So before we ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by an inadequate set of iTrial league formation tools, it might help to know that there are some valid reasons for this kind of invite filtering.
NOR-RAD - 50 Rad/Rad/Elec Defender - Nikki Stryker - 50 DM/SR/Weap Scrapper - Iron Marauder - 50 Eng/Eng/Pow Blaster
Lion of Might - 50 SS/Inv/Eng Tanker - Darling Nikkee - 50 (+3) StJ/WP/Eng Brute - Ice Giant Kurg - 36 Ice/Storm Controller