Entrance Requirements for iTrials

Wait the BAF and Lambda nerf went live?

The later trials aren't really meant for typical encounters and unless you're in a League that's on top of their game, don't forget the 5 D's...

Dodge, Dip, Duck, Dive, and...Dodge

I have no idea what you're actually trying to say here. Are you saying it's only the league leaders who like pulling the AVs together and that the rest of the league would prefer to fight the AVs separately?

The biggest problem with splitting the league up and having small strike teams is that each one then becomes more reliant on the individuals. And contrary to your claims, those are less fun, because one or two poor performers can ruin it for the entire league. That's why UG gets played so much less often than BAF, Lam, and Keyes. Those three work well because you don't need top performers in every slot.

Coordination and making sure people know their role is really freaking difficult, especially if the intent is to make trials that are accessible to PUGs. If everyone involved is performing at the top of their game, then sure you can pull off amazing stuff. But you can't expect that.

I'm hopeful that the solo/team Incarnate stuff coming in I22 will give us more chances to feel like individual badasses, but I can't see it working for league trials without abandoning design and accessibility goals.

Yes people like you and Rubberlad are suggesting that there's a problem here but you aren't really providing much more of a solution other than saying "the Devs should make this game more like a comic book". How do you do that exactly? And even if there were no limits on software technology or server architecture who's to say your interpretation of a comic book would be the same as mine, the Devs' or anyone elses?

Yes one could argue that the typical raid/trial paradigm of most MMOs don't really live up to the "look and feel" of what they're trying to deliver. I'm simply making the case that until computer technology advances I really don't think MMOs are going to be able to deliver much that's any better. This is not a specific failing of this particular game - this is a general problem of all current MMOs.

P.S. It might be fascinating if there was in fact a MMO based on Orwell's 1984. Not exactly sure how you could make a completely playable game based off of that, but you might be able to adapt it into some kind of generalized futuristic dystopian thing.

Don't throw 30 people into a bucket and expect them all to feel important?

On a 4 person team, i can be completely convinced that the group would fail without me - and I can also know that the other 3 people feel the same (ie that they are the important one). It's a good bet that none of us are correct, but it's the feeling that's important more than the reality.

On a 20 man team, nothing will produce that same feeling, because I can see that my actions are having no noticeable effect.

One of those is a good design for a game about superheros and the other isn't.

Again that's something that you want stopped.
Offer an alternative that could actually work effectively in a MMO setting.
I'm all ears here...

EDIT: You added to your post after I posted this. So you want a bunch of small team content? What if I think epic "comic book" battles are better represented by massive 24 member leagues all working on a single trial?

Indeed!

For what it's worth I'm not against content that works well with a "four-person team" scenario. But there are already plenty of TFs/SFs/arcs in this game that can cater to that. The Devs are also currently working on "Solo Incarnate" content for those people who don't like huge leagues. My guess is that we'll also be able to run that stuff with small teams if you want. *shrugs*

You'd be wrong.

I have certainly seen comics where large groups of heroes fight. If the battles are important, you get smaller groups accomplishing one aspect while the rest do something else. That is much better modeled by a group version of the clone arc - where you are playing a small, but necessary part, but are kept informed of the part your clone is playing.

I have also seen a bunch of heroes gang up on Galactus, but the only time that is ever successful is in Marvel Zombies. Even then, it follows the more common plot of "heros fight big bad, heroes lose, smaller group of specialized heroes do something important that changes the battle significantly." Again, this is something better handled by the normal team based content.

The idea of supers throwing enough bodies at a problem to make it go away is something I have never seen in a comic or anywhere else, because it's ****** storytelling.

I'm finding it somewhat funny that you think my -opinion- on this subject is absolutely wrong and your -opinion- is absolutely right.

Regardless as I've said this game already provides for a wide range of playstyles all the way from solo content up to huge leagues. Just because you don't like a certain subset of what the game provides doesn't make that subset wrong in the least. It's like saying a particular color in the color spectrum is "wrong" and the rest are "right". *shrugs*

What you mean is: its no fun if folks aren't listening/ acting appopriately to the leader's calls... which is when it becomes the lone wolf leading the masses to action. Fun for some; boring for others (which is probably why many go off and do their own thing instead).

As Zwill already said, there are no hard requirements for participating in an Incarnate trial other than being 50 . At the same point, he acknowledges that there's an implied learning curve that every participant needs to grasp/ understand... that's a catch-22 that's always going to mess everyone up.

In no uncertain terms, not everyone is lining up to play an Incarnate trial just to LEARN how to play a CoH trial all over again after achieving level 50 (and after 50 levels of gameplay, folks should already know what they need to know to participate and enjoy an Incarnate trial - shouldn't they?!). Now if there's a *new* learning curve required to successfully enjoy the gameplay at the Incarnate trial level (as if the Incarnate trials were some kind of CoH Graduate School program), then that's a flaw in the overall design.

Again, perfect example: the "meteorite" mechanics in the new Galaxy City tutorial which you never see/encounter again until you hit level 46+ and run an introductory Incarnate trial like Apex or Tin Man (which suggests these initial Incarnate trials are really the tutorial level for Incarnates). Why would anyone be upset that folks aren't re-learning the game at level 50 when they're encountering game mechanics they've never experienced before (aside from that rare glimpse in the Galaxy City tutorial)?

Hell the lvl 1 -50 game practically CONDITIONS folks to constantly rove blindly through the content in packs of 8 or less and feel personally involved with saving/vandalizing the city, but then you hit lvl 50+ where suddenly anyone participating in an Incarnate trial has no choice but to keep their head down, obey instructions, and follow the leader around a giant city map just to take down an AV on a ******* tennis court ---and you think that's MORE fun?!

The game designers can't have it both ways -either you encourage players to be more individually involved/active in community-friendly content or you don't. And because the Incarnate trials DON'T encourage individual participation as you so astutely point out -a level of participation that's been set up and ingrained in the average player's mind for 50 levels prior -folks are begging for solo Incarnate content to make them feel heroic again. And I guarantee you that when Issue 22 starts rolling out solo Incarnate content, you will see most (if not all) of the player base avoid the current Incarnate trials like the plague.

Bottom line: for some players, it's more fun to roll a new toon than it is to take their established lvl 50 toon and run it through an 50+ only Incarnate trial where people yell at you for not being high enough level to participate, not knowing their support function in the course of the lone wolf leaders steamrolling the content, and for not following orders when given. Only don't hate the game for steering the player wrong, hate the player for not recognizing that the game itself has changed...

Whatever.

Personally, I get the feeling that the trials are actually those "small groups" you're talking about.

Its a war. Steel Canyon and Skyway are getting wrecked, the large groups of heroes are on the homefront repelling the assault where they can. The smaller, specialized groups (incarnates) are making calculated strikes on the Praetorians to help turn the tide.

Whether or not the game does a decent job at conveying that (or if that's what is supposed to be going on at all) is something else.

Yep, its where I moved my level 50 Stalker.

An apt sentiment. I think I'd better walk before the subject turns to lone wolves stealing the masses' precious bodily fluids.

Ha!

Look, all I'm offering is one perspective on the Incarnate trials problem. The OP, you, Eva and others are offering different perspectives of the same shared problem. And ultimately all these perspectives are valid regardless of who is right or wrong because thats just how people feel.

Meanwhile the Incarnate trials are still very rigid content, with self-serving opportunities readily available for some VIPs but not others to enjoy; and the Devs are scratching their heads wondering why anyone would even want solo-friendly Incarnate content. Its because not everyone wants to compete in a hostile league environment where only "the best" are welcome. And who wants to pay to maintain VIP status just to be shunned, insulted and humiliated to the point they dare not take part in the Incarnate trials at all?

No, for some folks, the fun in playing CoH - and the Incarnate trials - is being allowed to enjoy the overall content freely as they always have via lvls 1-50 rather than compulsively obsessing about the mutually exclusive lvl 50+ endgame rewards. I dont think thats a bad thing. Do you?

I have to admit, the OP is the first time I've seen anyone shunned for the trials at all, but I play on Virtue which is pretty freeform. Generally speaking, I've found the trials and the people playing them to be very inclusive and tolerant, though I've yet to play UG or the new ones. The worst I've seen is "DON'T ATTACK ANTI-MATTER".

I definitely don't disagree. Out of the 20-some characters I have, only 5 are level 50 and only 1 of those has done anything with the trials. I'm looking forward to I22 and the solo/team content; even if the devs are still confused as to why people want it, at least they're delivering. Either way, I've never personally felt like I have to climb the Incarnate ladder, save possibly for the Alpha slot which never needs a trial to achieve at all.

I was recently on an UG where they were going for the bomb badge. Unfortunately we had a player who accidently made a wrong turn and triggered an explosion, ruining the chance for the badge.

The screaming-at, name-calling and insults including a heaping helping of four-letter words heaped on this person for their mistake were bad to the point where I haven't really sought out an UG trial since. I'm sure I will one day, but my eagerness is gone. I loved UG. These trials create an incredible amount of pressure on both participants AND leaders.

For that reason I don't think I'll remain on any badge-specific leagues in the future, if I do I will hang back until the objective is completed. I have even seen anger on the DfB trial if badges are lost, like people don't run that 5 times in a row anyways! Master-of runs? No thanks; Im not going to be the one dog-cussed in league chat, tyvm.

I rarely lead trials, but every now and then I did. The behavior I've seen lately makes this a risky proposition.

You mean like the dreck like crisis of the 5th crisis of 6th earth of the new crisis to end all crises that comic books are currently stuck in. (aka event fatigue).

yeah I don't think that type of of thing is something that folks should point to as epic. I'd actually argue a lot of comic readers are tired of it.

And then there is this. The devs are working on content that doesn't resemble some of the idiocy I see in modern comic books today.

I don't believe any of the iTrials couldn't scale perfectly well down to 8 or maybe even 6. If people want to run them as 1 out of 24 then good luck to them but that doesn't sell "Epic" for me. Epic is when I faced Tyrant one-to-one and kicked his blinged-up butt!

I haven't done a MoM or TPN yet so I can't say about those, but probably the hardest thing to scale down to 8 or less would be the "Stop the prisoners" section of the easiest trial, but I am sure that could be done as well.

ps: I hate massive cross-over comics as well. They are never "epic"

This isn't an opinion of "what tastes better cake or pie". This is about looking at two things and seeing which one better matches a third. It's not opinion to say a cake is closer to a cookie than a cheetah is.

I wasn't aware we were talking about what anyone liked. I thought it was about whether or not the game content creates the feel of comics. That's what the topic was in the post I responded to.

Now, it may be possible to make content that gives a mass battle and at the same time presents the story to each member that they are the protagonist hero, but it's not going to be easy, because comics aren't like that. Stories in general are not like that.

Unfortunately if you happen to be a European player on Victory, MoM farm for nightmares is about the only thing that ever forms at times I'm awake. One of my friends has taken to transferring his 50s over to Freedumb to get them incarnated up and then move them back, it really is that bad. I'm quite happy doing BAF/Lambda/Keyes but not happy leading them, so don't really want to try to form my own. I suffer from having 30 or so toons with T3+ alpha, but nothing at more than +1 so MoM is not a barrel of laughs and you get minimal incarnate XP on a nightmare farm anyway.