A ton of ideas and a lot of reading. Good job so far.
Now for my 2 cents...
*Deleted because according to Master Deus Otiosus, it was tooooo overpowering.*
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
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Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
A ton of ideas and a lot of reading. Good job so far.
Now for my 2 cents... Mine is simple. 1. Raise tankers damage potential to equal a brute (without rage). 2. Increase taunt cap to 25. 3. Give a tanker's gauntlet power a power bar that increases with the amount of damage he and or the team receive damage that would give the following buffs. a. +Def increase % for tanker and for each team member within the tanker's taunt aura range. b. Tanker's hit points increase in a simliar manner to a brute's damage via rage increasing his taunting aura range by 50%. This would make the tanker the greater threat. c. Tanker's taunting aura causes -to hit for all foes in range of the tanker and those team members in the tanker's taunt range. |
You forgot #4 in your list of overpowered stuff.
4) Delete Brutes and Scrappers as they no longer have a reason to exist.
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Overpowered? You cannot be serious. Compared to what I have read throughout this massive tome of a thread, it is mild. |
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
You forgot #4 in your list of overpowered stuff.
4) Delete Brutes and Scrappers as they no longer have a reason to exist. |
However, I will bow to your obviously great experience of all things. I will delete my suggestion since it is soooo overpowering. It's not like I have 10 years of game developing of two major game systems under my belt.
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
Honestly, Knight, I just had no idea what you were trying to say. It seemed like you were mixing up concepts (e.g., Rage versus Fury) which led to your post making little sense. That, plus the grammatical errors caused me to have no idea what you were actually trying to get at.
A -ToHit debuff on other players in range of your Taunt aura? What? A bar that goes up as the Tanekr and his team gets damaged? What about Tankers that rely on not getting hit? Taunting aura range going up increases the Tanker's threat?
I don't think your idea is overpowering, per se (although the note about having Tanker damage potential be equal to that of Brutes could be), but it just doesn't make sense to me.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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The combination of these two alone would very obviously be broken:|
Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
Overpowered? You cannot be serious.
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a. +Def increase % for tanker and for each team member within the tanker's taunt aura range.
c. Tanker's taunting aura causes -to hit for all foes in range of the tanker and those team members in the tanker's taunt range.
I'm assuming, of course, you didn't intend to suggest actually debuffing your own team mates and that's just a typo. But just the consequences of granting Invuln and Willpower tankers these two abilities would be enough to disqualify them as practical.
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I said to myself I wasn't going to participate any further in this thread after Dues BS comment, especially after all the suggestions I read. However, if what I said wasn't clear, as you indicated then I have the responsibility to clarify myself. You'll have to excuse my grammatical errors as I was typing all of this from work. I should have checked myself before hitting the submission button.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Honestly, Knight, I just had no idea what you were trying to say. It seemed like you were mixing up concepts (e.g., Rage versus Fury) which led to your post making little sense. That, plus the grammatical errors caused me to have no idea what you were actually trying to get at.
A -ToHit debuff on other players in range of your Taunt aura? What? A bar that goes up as the Tanekr and his team gets damaged? What about Tankers that rely on not getting hit? Taunting aura range going up increases the Tanker's threat? I don't think your idea is overpowering, per se (although the note about having Tanker damage potential be equal to that of Brutes could be), but it just doesn't make sense to me. |
1. Rage vs Fury.
You are correct, I mixed the two up. Replace fury for rage.
2. A -ToHit debuff on other players in range of your Taunt aura?
That should have read "enemies on players in range of the tanker's taunt aura."
3. A bar that goes up as the Tanekr and his team gets damaged? What about Tankers that rely on not getting hit?
A 'fury type bar' call it the 'Gauntlet Bar,' rises in a similar fashion of a brute affording the tanker's HP to increase in a similar fashion a brute's damage increases while they are:
a. Receiving damage
b. Team mates receiving damage or the lost of a team mate.
4. Taunting aura range going up increases the Tanker's threat?
a. Tanker's threat lvl increases becoming the greatest threat to the enemies within the taunt aura range as the 'Gauntlet bar' increases
b. Extend the range of effect of the tanker's taunt aura.
5. A tanker's Damage potential.
I think we all can agree that a Tanker's ability to deliver damage compared to a scrapper or brute is seriously lacking without them using any toggles or influences of a fury bar (brute). Since the tanker's damage is lacking, it makes sense it should increase. I believe a tanker's damage potential should have a similar potential that a brute has excluding the influence of fury. This would allow said tanker to dispatch enemies in a more timely fashion instead of spending longer periods pounding on one or two when the rest of the team is dispatching the remainder in a far quicker time. This is especially true when a tanker is soloing.
Additionally, you'll note I did not mention increasing the tanker's damage with the 'Gauntlet Bar.' Just the tanker’s HP and Defensive bonus. The tanker's damage is capped; however, it can be increased with the use of SOs or IOs.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The combination of these two alone would very obviously be broken:
a. +Def increase % for tanker and for each team member within the tanker's taunt aura range. c. Tanker's taunting aura causes -to hit for all foes in range of the tanker and those team members in the tanker's taunt range. |
The Shield Defensive power affords a percentage of defense with Phalanx Fighting, a toggle power.
Tanker
5% No Allies (unenhanceable)
8% (+3%) 1 Ally (base value)
11% (+3%) 2 Allies (base value)
14% (+3%) 3 Allies (base value)
What I propose is something similar tied into the 'Gauntlet Bar' along with a tanker's taunting.
A tanker gets a base +def bonus of .25 of SD bonus enhanced in the following manner:
Tanker: 1.25% (self) / 2% (1 alley) / 2.75% (2 allies) / 3.5% (3 allies / 4.25% (4 allies)...+.75% per additional alley above 4 for a maximum of 8 teammates for 7.25%.
Now if a Tanker has SD, obviously they won't get the def modifier since SD affords them a higher % of defense. However, they would still receive the increased HP, taunt aura range, increase of taunted individuals to 25, and -to hit debuff.
In battle, a tanker should become more dangerous of a threat to all enemies around him because of his ability to soak up damage. Increasing his hit points, his taunting abilities, and giving a modest +def% to himself and his team mates within his taunt aura range make him the focus of enemies to better protect the team from aggro they may generate. I hope this clarifies my input for those interested.
Current active characters: Dragon Maiden (50+3 Brute SS/WP/PM), Black Widow Maiden (50+1 Night Widow), Catayclasmic Ariel (50 lvl Defender - Kin/DP), Quantumshock (50 lvl Elect/Energy/Energy), American's Defender (38 lvl Tanker - SD/Mace), Spider-Maiden (15 lvl Corruptor - RB/PD) & Siren Shrike (15 lvl Defender - Sonic/Sonic). My entire stable.
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The devs don't give out base defense anymore because it works against attacks they deliberately want to make untyped. However, even if they allowed this as an exception, Base defense stacks with types, its not overridden by them. In fact, when something debuffs your defense, what they debuff is base defense (so they don't have to debuff all the different vectors separately) and that works because that "negative base defense" stacks on top of every other defense type, essentially debuffing them all simultaneously.|
Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
A tanker gets a base +def bonus of .25 of SD bonus enhanced in the following manner:
Tanker: 1.25% (self) / 2% (1 alley) / 2.75% (2 allies) / 3.5% (3 allies / 4.25% (4 allies)...+.75% per additional alley above 4 for a maximum of 8 teammates for 7.25%. Now if a Tanker has SD, obviously they won't get the def modifier since SD affords them a higher % of defense. |
Similarly, an inherent tanker +Base wouldn't affect only tankers with no defense, it would add to all the defense types the tankers might have. In particular it would stack with powers like invincibility, and indirectly powers like RTTC (which debuff tohit).
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They're not intended to ever come close to Scrappers or Brutes in damage dealing because Tankers are not designed as high end damage dealers.|
Originally Posted by KnightofKhonsu
I
I think we all can agree that a Tanker's ability to deliver damage compared to a scrapper or brute is seriously lacking without them |
Contrary to popular belief, neither Scrappers nor Brutes can attain Tanker mitigation levels.
If you want to deal high damage, choose a damage dealer.
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To be honest the reason people say this is because once you reach a certain level of mitigation it becomes God Mode. So once you have this mitigation more mitigation on top of it is not perceived as worthwhile.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
They're not intended to ever come close to Scrappers or Brutes in damage dealing because Tankers are not designed as high end damage dealers.
Contrary to popular belief, neither Scrappers nor Brutes can attain Tanker mitigation levels. If you want to deal high damage, choose a damage dealer. |
The best example I can think of would be a player standing against an AV or group of enemies. Lets say the group of enemies deal 100 DPS and the player's total amount of regen + defense + resist = 110 HPS meaning there is a surplus of 10 HPS. The player won't die because the group or AV cannot out damage the player's effective regeneration in combination with Def and res.
A Tanker's total HPS in the above scenario may be 150 HPS with a surplus of 50 HPS. So yes its superior to the Scrapper and Brute but the issue is God Mode is God Mode either way.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Tanker mitigation levels.
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You made this point 19 posts ago, honestly if I were to search your post history and display the results the term broken record might not sum it up succinctly.
I've avoided muddying up this thread because the OP has enough of a task sorting through legitimate suggestions & ideas without this but, here's some cheese to go with that whine.
Ultimus' thread is still up if you feel the need to burn down the point in 20 more posts that tankers have high mitigation thus negating any rational need to examine whether even a look is warrented and certainly absolutely no additional damage dare find it's way to the AT because that's all Santa gave the half blind urchin Brute and Scrapper "at your service governor." (who become in many power combinations the right ******* hand of God with as little as a speed boost).
If a developer is seriously looking at Tanks then apparently your argument hasn't been persuasive, so continue beating the point down into the bowels of hell only show a tiny bit of regard to the task Aett Thorn has volunteered to do sorting through all this trying to find the constructive, and bring the roadshow (as you only frequented brute & scrapper boards prior to any of this) over to Ultimus' thread.
Final word, JB in comparison has offered more constructive substance per % of posts in this thread, that would startle an atheist into the arms of religion.
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Its not perceived as worthwhile, that's a perception issue.|
Originally Posted by Ultimus
To be honest the reason people say this is because once you reach a certain level of mitigation it becomes God Mode. So once you have this mitigation more mitigation on top of it is not perceived as worthwhile.
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Incarnate trials have worked hard to inflict punishment on players, and I think is definitely space there for the Tankers better mitigation to shine.
And people can think its worthless all they want, but asking for damage buffs without realistically looking at how powerful the base mitigation is, and how much that adds when you are making the build in the first place is, imo, not even remotely realistic.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
The best example I can think of would be a player standing against an AV or group of enemies. Lets say the group of enemies deal 100 DPS and the player's total amount of regen + defense + resist = 110 HPS meaning there is a surplus of 10 HPS. The player won't die because the group or AV cannot out damage the player's effective regeneration in combination with Def and res.
A Tanker's total HPS in the above scenario may be 150 HPS with a surplus of 50 HPS. So yes its superior to the Scrapper and Brute but the issue is God Mode is God Mode either way. |
If the mitigation is irrelevant beyond a certain point, than how much are tankers willing to give up for more damage?
If it is not irrelevant, well then why are people asking for even more in this thread?
Even tanker players cant seem to decide if they have too much or not enough mitigation. This entire thread constantly flops back and forth between those extremes.
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Originally Posted by Redoptic
You made this point 19 posts ago, honestly if I were to search your post history and display the results the term broken record might not sum it up succinctly.
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So which is it, which one do you subscribe to?
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Originally Posted by Redoptic
Final word, JB in comparison has offered more constructive substance per % of posts in this thread, that would startle an atheist into the arms of religion.
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I see him posting more of the same:
- Hand wavium of Tanker mitigation numbers by using unrealistic perma buffed res caps to make Brutes fit into his view of the game.
- Tankers deserve more damage due to that, and his idea of Tankers from comic books.
I do have to say that in I-trial stuff, which it seems the developers are wanting to push, a Tank is actually helpful, not just a brute or scrapper sit-in.
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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You asked this question when I already stated it, streamline the four Tanking ATs (At least according to the character creator) and give them all the same hp/def/res caps. So I am willing to give up the extra Tanker HP in lieu of a higher max damage cap close to Brutes.|
Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Its not perceived as worthwhile, that's a perception issue.
Incarnate trials have worked hard to inflict punishment on players, and I think is definitely space there for the Tankers better mitigation to shine. And people can think its worthless all they want, but asking for damage buffs without realistically looking at how powerful the base mitigation is, and how much that adds when you are making the build in the first place is, imo, not even remotely realistic. That doesn't change the fact that the mitigation is already there. If the mitigation is irrelevant beyond a certain point, than how much are tankers willing to give up for more damage? If it is not irrelevant, well then why are people asking for even more in this thread? Even tanker players cant seem to decide if they have too much or not enough mitigation. This entire thread constantly flops back and forth between those extremes. Apparently it hasn't caught hold yet, since people keep posting how Tanker mitigation is both simultaneously irrelevant and not worth the lower offense as well as insufficient and Tankers should have even better mitigation. So which is it, which one do you subscribe to? I see him posting more of the same:
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They would then be true inverses of each other, a Brute would need a lot of +HP and Def/Res buffs to achieve a Tanker's full mitigation level, a Tanker would need a LOT of damage buffs to achieve Brute level damage.
While I'll accept that some brutes and some scrappers can do a tank's job some of the time, I don't really see tanks being eclipsed.
The only thing I'd like to see changed is some benefit from stacking multiple tanks.
After the first there's little point.
Letting some portion of bruising stack, or at least stack per tank would do it, though I'm sure there are more creative and interesting ideas out there too.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
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The only issue with this line of thought is:|
Originally Posted by _Pine_
I do have to say that in I-trial stuff, which it seems the developers are wanting to push, a Tank is actually helpful, not just a brute or scrapper sit-in.
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Holes.
I have a VERY tooled up stone tanker. When I pop into Granite, I should be nigh-unkillable, right?
Except for the giant mag stuns and massive psi damage of the iTrials. Many times, I have been killed stone dead (get it?) right through what should be some of the best defenses in the game, far beyond what anybody else can achieve without buffs. (Like those are hard to find.)
Or how about the unresistable 'screw you tankers' damage? Thank you, Praetor Keyes.
Or the Death Patches mechanic, which is actually skewed AGAINST Tankers, because we lack significant ranged attacks and our melee attacks tend to be slower animating than other meleers.
Or...well. I think you get the point.
If the Dev's are going to kill Tankers through holes in our defenses, then on the iTrials we are EXACTLY as fragile as any other AT.
And we do way less damage for the privelege.
Wow, I feel special.
I dont see that at all mauk2.
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
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Really?|
Originally Posted by _Pine_
I dont see that at all mauk2.
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Not ten minutes ago, on Infinity, I was involved in a MoM nightmare farm. (I know a lot of badgers.)
I brought my inv/ax tanker. This is my favorite toon: If it is possible to do, I have done it on this toon. It is my in-game namesake.
I died, over, and over again. I was pulling my hair out. I literally CANNOT make this toon any tougher. If I can, I don't know how.
I LOVE this toon, but I have to face facts. It's frankly obsolete. And that makes me deeply sad.
Have YOU tried to run a MoM on a super-built invuln tanker lately? Maybe I just suck, after all. 8|
You took a tank designed for Smashing/Lethal Uberness with a psi hole on a trial with almost all psi damage. Can we blame the AT?
Try doing it with a Stone, Elec, SR, SD or Elec tank.
Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.
I don't like the fact that so much of the game relies on Defense. Inventions has made it possible for some ATs to have unreasonable levels of Defense and I think the Devs have over-reacted with untyped damage and Resist hole exploits. I agree that reducing the soft cap for Brutes and Scrappers to 40% would cause howling but the alternative is increasing damage for Tanks and I don't see all of them as needing that.
Tanks are supposed to take damage and hold aggro. It's their intended role in the game. Therefore, all else being equal, they should do that better than any other AT bar none. I have no problem with some uber-expensive Scrapper being tougher than my base IO Tanker after spending 10 billion at the Market. However if I spend the same then IMHO we should be back where we started...I take damage and hold aggro and he deals damage.
I would rather see aggro adjusted for the melee sets before anything else. Reduce the aggro caps for Brutes and Scrappers so the expensive builds for Defense don't get hosed. Raise the aggro cap for Tanks so they can once again shine in this one area. Slave a Tank's Gauntlet to the team size like Vigilant is for Defenders. The more people on the team, the more the Tank's Taunt aura increases. Then die-hard Tanker soloists can't encroach on Brute/Scrapper damage and the Shield Scrappers can stop stealing aggro.
Before anything else, look at the Tanker Primaries with an eye towards balancing them before doing any wholesale changes to the AT. The terminal crash on Invul and the pigeon-hole nature of Granite especially.
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In general I think the Tanker AT is fine. I would start by looking at the tanker sets themselves. The first thing I would do is get rid of all fatal crashes on tanks. They should work more like the WP crash. I would have a moderate end crash to reflect the power wearing off and exhaustion but not to the point where it going to shut off every toggle.
They would also be changed so that they are unaffected by recharge as well.
I would look at those powers like Soul Transfer and Rise of the Phoenix which you can only use after your dead. I think its totally stupid for a tank to have a T9 that ONLY works when the tank is dead. I would keep the rez but also make a power that works when you are alive something like Howlight Twilight. Sure you can use it as a rez power but its also a pretty good debuff as well.
I would think about making Soul Transfer a little like Soul Drain to buff the tank.. and RotP would give a nice offensive boost .. the thought being these tanks dont take the damage.. they dish it out to defeat their foes faster.
I would also consider giving tanks higher base HP to push them further away from Brutes. I would also increase the number of foes that Taunt Auto hits for tanks ONLY..
The hard things I can do--- The impossible just take a little bit longer.
If numbers are so much more important than a teammate who is fun to play with, forget about the game altogether and go play with a calculator instead. -Claws and Effect-
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I dont think it's appropriate to need to select your character from some hypothetical quiver based on the content at hand.|
Originally Posted by _Pine_
You took a tank designed for Smashing/Lethal Uberness with a psi hole on a trial with almost all psi damage. Can we blame the AT?
Try doing it with a Stone, Elec, SR, SD or Elec tank. |
Provided a tank is built for the task, said tank should be able to do a tank's job.
Now: I'm not saying all tanks should be equal at all tasks, and I'm not certain that all options were actually exploited by the invul/axe in question. As I recall, an axe/invul with stacked scirroccos, 2X +5 from ranged and patron pet purples, a full load of psi def from res sets, weave, maneuvers and 2+3s can hit over 40% psi def, which requires some nasty (but not cripling )compromise, but does provide serious psi protection.
But as a basic principle, a tank that is not, by primary, well suited to the task at hand, should still be balanced such that success is still within reach (hard? sure but within reach)
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
Another Person who complains about the Arc-types this time a Tanker Really Dude, There nothing wrong with tankers, they got enough Hp and good amount of resist, they are meant to hold Aggro and they do it well, my first toon was tanker and never had a real Issue.
Once you figure them out, you will not die at all, Also Incarnate trial, you the Tanker aren't meant to do the tank and Spank.
There are nothing wrong with Tankers, I think you need more better IO Sets and Dude maybe pick more better Defense power, Remember also a Tanker isn't meant to do Damage that what the Scrappers and Blaster are for.
If you want an unstoppable Tanker make a Stone Tanker, just make sure you bring Kin.
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Thank you Aett Thorn for consolidating a lot of the best ideas for how to improve a Tank in one place. I was going to rate which I feel are best, or respond to some folks posting. I've decided not to. The fact that some of the ideas I like are part of your original post makes me happy. Some of the things I saw in there were surprising, and interesting. I hope the Devs read these ideas carefully and craft something useful.
It really threw me for a loop to discover Tankers in City of X. I have never seen an archtype in any video game quite like them. I hope that the Developers realize they have something unique here and work to make positive changes for the AT that will move it forward to match the powerful changes that have happened with the overall gaming experience for those who play in the cities.
Here's a random idea that probably won't have much impact on improving tankers solo or small team performance, but which might make them more usefully "stackable" on large teams.
Have gauntlet apply a -special or low grade general debuff effect on all affected foes. Less def, less -def, less -tohit, a little bit of - regen, whatever. Make the effect small but stackable, such that 2-3 tanks could impose a fairly meaningful level of debuff on one, or a few enemies and protect the entire team, possibly making a significant dent on the survivability of a handfull or less particularly irritating mobs... Not so much of a debuff that you'd meaningfully kill off large numbers of foes faster, or make tanks solo much better than they do now.
Going further: Not interesting enough? fine. Make gauntlet a slottable power. Give it equal measure of enhanceable debuff and unenhanceable -debuff of many types, and let tanks slot the debuff type they'd like to particularly specialize in. WP/DM tanks might choose tohitdebuff, you could slot damage, for -damage and SD/KM tanks could potentially stack a fair bit of this. slot resistance for -res, heal for -regen, def debuff... more -range... all applied in small amounts to those caught in gauntlet. Not enough to make THAT much difference with one tank, but again, let it stack. For added entertainment, let the alpha slot modify this.
Possibly consider adding in an increase in the aggro limit and you'd be more than fine. These changes shouldn't make tanks much better solo.
They'd never eclipse defenders for debuff, scrappers for damage or any such thing,
But you wouldn't feel that three tanks on a TF were a waste.
The cake is a lie! The cake is a lie!
Make tier 9's have a tiny buff +1 Def or +2 Res (unenhanced) but then allow them to break the cap limits (including soft cap def).
So for a very brief period (maybe 10 seconds) you have only a 3% chance to be hit or a Res of 95%. Good for alphas, but nothing like perma