Gender Equality?! I LIKE CHEESECAKE!
So you're saying it's ok to pick what female models wear, but NOT certain options like baron jackets, chaps and gunslinger jackets?
|
I've said before that I have no issue with giving female models various parts (jackets, etc) but that I'd hate to see it deter the artists from the exceptional work they've done on some of the uniquely feminine bits.
What I object to is people acting as though those bits are somehow forcing themselves onto their models or something. If you think Part A looks like prosititute-wear, throw a shirt or pants on under it.
Edit: Really? The casual "h-word" for prostitute is censored?
Swap "actually" with "necessarily" and yes, that's precisely what MOO is saying, if I may presume. No-one is telling anyone what anyone should wear. All anyone has asked here is options in the kit, or clothes in the wardrobe, if you will.
In City of Heroes, we all share the same wardrobe with infinite copies of everything, so when I get new clothes, you get new clothes. Whether you would wear my baggy trousers isn't really interesting to me when I pick what to wear, we just happen to share the same hammerspace. So when I ask for costume pieces, I ask them for myself, for my own characters to wear, for my own costumes to use them. What you or "women" or anyone else chooses to wear doesn't enter into it. |
Sorry, but my explanation seems much simpler to me.
For the record, I don't believe he was being malicious - just unconsciously sexist. I don't think he's a bad person, or trying to act like one. On the contrary, if I thought he meant to be sexist, I wouldn't bother.
I think MOO's a good guy. And when good guys - or good gals - say something that makes them look bad, they should be called out on it.
That's the way things change.
"Strength of numbers is the delight of the timid. The valiant in spirit glory in fighting alone."
- Mahatma Gandhi
Still CoHzy after all these years...
I hate to double-post, but another thought occurred.
What I said about MOO being a good guy,just needing to be called out on that - that feels like what's going on through this entire issue.
This game has one of the best overall design teams ever. They have gone out of their way to hammer out top-quality pieces, again and again, to suit a hugely divergent pool of players. When they seem to be making the same basic, obvious errors over and over again - even when they have been pointed out - it feels strange.
Our developers are - in my humble opinion - too good to be making these sorts of errors repeatedly. And we should remind them of that.
And we should remind ourselves that they're human, and that they will make mistakes, and that they'll make changes we might not like. And that self-reminding goes double for me.
The Devs have done better, they can do better and - I believe strongly - they will do better.
"Strength of numbers is the delight of the timid. The valiant in spirit glory in fighting alone."
- Mahatma Gandhi
Still CoHzy after all these years...
So, when he said that women dressing in certain ways pleases him, and that women should to that more, he wasn't informing women how to dress to please him?
|
Of course he wasn't. The only thing he can do is dress his own toons how he wants to. The fact that he likes to see women dressed a certain way is not degrading, nor is it "telling" anyone they have to do anything just to please him. It's an expression of personal desire. The only way it translates into a game discussion at all is that if the pieces he likes stop being made, he personally cannot continue dressing his characters in new outfits he personally likes.
I personally like to see hot shirtless guys. If hot guys could just never wear shirts I would be fine with that. But the fact that I would like this does not mean that I am "telling" all guys they need to be shirtless all the time.
For the record, I don't believe he was being malicious - just unconsciously sexist. |
Once again, no one forces you to use Eden under that corset or Bikini 1 under that skirt except you. Every inch of skin shown is an inch you decided to show.
|
Don't get me started on the face they chose to represent that set. <.<
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
My concern is for how the creators may envision some of these outfits. Choose the female "Gunslinger" set and you find a woman wearing bikini bottoms under the bustle and train (or buttcape, if you prefer). Why no skirt? Long Pleated looks fine, albeit with some clipping of the train. Mini Pleated is still an improvement over just the bikini, and still shows all the "Gunslinger" parts.
|
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
My concern is for how the creators may envision some of these outfits. Choose the female "Gunslinger" set and you find a woman wearing bikini bottoms under the bustle and train (or buttcape, if you prefer). Why no skirt?
|
Obviously this doesn't preclude you from adding in your own skirt, leggings, etc.
Of course he wasn't. The only thing he can do is dress his own toons how he wants to. The fact that he likes to see women dressed a certain way is not degrading, nor is it "telling" anyone they have to do anything just to please him. It's an expression of personal desire. The only way it translates into a game discussion at all is that if the pieces he likes stop being made, he personally cannot continue dressing his characters in new outfits he personally likes.
|
In my mind, women are vastly more attractive than men. They need more clothes to accentuate that attractiveness. |
Not 'I'd like to see more...'
He's saying what women need.
Need.
If they're going to keep him happy, that is.
And the two paragraphs, by the way, were discussing the real world, not the game world.
I personally like to see hot shirtless guys. If hot guys could just never wear shirts I would be fine with that. But the fact that I would like this does not mean that I am "telling" all guys they need to be shirtless all the time.
|
For the record, I think trying to link any poster's opinions on their own character's wardrobe to sexism, conscious or unconscious, is claiming moral high ground that doesn't exist.
|
For the record, if you don't think someone's forum post can be sexist, you might want to think about it for a bit. I could compose a sexist forum post. Could you?
If so, please don't tell me forum posts can't be sexist.
Unless, of course, you're telling me that pointing out what appears to me to be sexism isn't a good thing, that there is no moral high ground when it comes to sexism. (I suspect that's not what you're saying.)
Alternately, you might be admonishing me that this isn't important enough to warrant my attention. I'm capable of making that decision for myself, thanks.
You might even be telling me it's not important enough to warrant your attention. If so, that's fine, thread exits to the right.
"Strength of numbers is the delight of the timid. The valiant in spirit glory in fighting alone."
- Mahatma Gandhi
Still CoHzy after all these years...
So, when he said that women dressing in certain ways pleases him, and that women should to that more, he wasn't informing women how to dress to please him?
|
But that is a long stretch from him making demands or even requests that they do so.
Off the cuff, my guess would be because they want to restrict showing the set parts to purely the set parts as much as possible. A long "gunslinger" skirt would have been nice but, in its absence, they'd rather remove the visual bottom entirely than add in parts from other sets while showcasing this one.
|
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
What I object to is people acting as though those bits are somehow forcing themselves onto their models or something. If you think Part A looks like prosititute-wear, throw a shirt or pants on under it.
|
What concerns me is that the art team seem to be making sexy clothes to the exception of everything else, and doing so continuously. What concerns me is that it feels like the people in charge see no place in their game for female characters NOT selling themselves on sex and thus not seeing a place of the characters I want to make.
I don't mind corsets and thigh-high boots on their own. It's when we see that as the sole addition for female characters set after set after set that I begin to worry. If it were a mix of everything, then I'd be fine with it. I could easily accept that I didn't get what I wanted in this set, but maybe I'll get it in the next one. As it is, I start to think that I'll NEVER get what I want because someone will simply always find a way to twist the theme to show more cleavage and more leg.
At no point has the backlash against the Gunslinger set been against what we got. It has always been against what we DIDN'T get, with what we did get being held up as not nearly enough and not exactly in theme.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Informing? Sure. If (<---important word - don't skip it) a woman has a desire to please him, then yes, he has informed them how to do so.
But that is a long stretch from him making demands or even requests that they do so. |
I'm COMPLETELY okay with that. It's a GOOD THING! In my mind, women are vastly more attractive than men. They need more clothes to accentuate that attractiveness. I like buying clothes for her. |
Thanks.
"Strength of numbers is the delight of the timid. The valiant in spirit glory in fighting alone."
- Mahatma Gandhi
Still CoHzy after all these years...
That's not what he said and it's not what you quoted. What he said was "[women] need more clothes to accentuate that attractiveness." Unless you're looking to be offended, to me this says that women, i.e. the female model in the game, need to have more clothes like this. Moo is referring to costume item selection and creation.
|
However, when I look at my closet, I see that Mrs. Moo's section is about 4-5 times as large as mine. I also realize that the vast majority of those clothes, shoes, and accessories have been paid for, at least in terms of cash, by me. I'm COMPLETELY okay with that. It's a GOOD THING! In my mind, women are vastly more attractive than men. They need more clothes to accentuate that attractiveness. I like buying clothes for her. |
Unfortunately, I see references to a (presumably real) closet, a (presumably real) spouse, and (presumably real) clothing.
There are other paragraphs in which MOO is discussing the costume creator. You'll notice I'm neither quoting, nor objecting to, those paragraphs.
"Strength of numbers is the delight of the timid. The valiant in spirit glory in fighting alone."
- Mahatma Gandhi
Still CoHzy after all these years...
Here are both the paragraph I am quoting, and the preceeding paragraph:
Please highlight the sections discussing the costume creator. Unfortunately, I see references to a (presumably real) closet, a (presumably real) spouse, and (presumably real) clothing. There are other paragraphs in which MOO is discussing the costume creator. You'll notice I'm neither quoting, nor objecting to, those paragraphs. |
That right there preceded the "However" in the section that you found offense with.
Whenever there is a "However", that means that there was something that preceded it. Whatever comes after the "However" pertains to what came before the "However".
Its basic English.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
Please highlight the sections discussing the costume creator.
|
"Gender Equality" is a reference to the thread the Techbot started shortly after the Steampunk set was released, and a thread David Nakayama himself followed up on in his Costume Workshop. Many of the prevailing opinions in both of those threads were that women had enough sexy clothing to last them a while and needed more other stuff. Moo simply does not feel this is the case, but as is his way, he started a separate thread about it.
In fact, there's an even better clue, and it's found right here:
City of Heroes Forums > English > For Fun! > City Life - CoH & CoV General Discussions > Gender Equality?! I LIKE CHEESECAKE! |
It's neither your place nor your right to judge people or chastise them over minor remarks and ambiguous phrasing when it's clear to everyone else on the forums understood what he meant. It's the biggest thing that's been talked about for probably two weeks now. You know what he meant. Stop trying to twist the man's words.
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
All talking about gender equality between the avatars, when you should all be in game using the gender equal costume pieces of Titan Weapons!
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
![Wink](images/smilies/wink.gif)
The BrandX Collection
Here's the quote:
Quote:
Not 'I'd like to see more...' He's saying what women need. Need. If they're going to keep him happy, that is. |
That said, the way David has said they'll try to design costumes from now on satisfies me. It sounds like we'll be getting more unisex parts as well as some pretty, feminine pieces. And they know now not to create matched sets which heavily imply different gender roles for different character models, which was my big complaint with the Gunslinger pack.
Here, I'll show you:
"Gender Equality" is a reference to the thread the Techbot started shortly after the Steampunk set was released, and a thread David Nakayama himself followed up on in his Costume Workshop. Many of the prevailing opinions in both of those threads were that women had enough sexy clothing to last them a while and needed more other stuff. Moo simply does not feel this is the case, but as is his way, he started a separate thread about it. In fact, there's an even better clue, and it's found right here: This is a discussion about City of Heroes on the City of Heroes forums. You choose to take offence at Moo's desire for more sexy clothes for his female characters - specifically the notion that female characters should have MORE costume items than male characters - that's your call to make. But please don't insult the man's intelligence just because you think you know what he actually meant when that's nothing of the sort like what he said. It's neither your place nor your right to judge people or chastise them over minor remarks and ambiguous phrasing when it's clear to everyone else on the forums understood what he meant. It's the biggest thing that's been talked about for probably two weeks now. You know what he meant. Stop trying to twist the man's words. |
His statements weren't ambiguous - they were quite straight forward. They only become cryptic if we assume they aren't sexist.
He make a remark about his wife, their closet, and who pays for what, and who should wear what. You appear to be saying that in talking about his wife, he didn't mean his wife. In talking about his closet, he didn't mean his closet. And that in talking about women, he didn't mean women.
I'm not the one trying to make words jump through hoops here.
He said he supported more options, in specific sexy ones, for his female game avatars. I support this fully, and so didn't comment on it.
He also told us what he thinks women need in terms of clothes. I object to this sentiment, and I have said so. I have explained why. I have not insulted his intelligence, nor have I intimated MOO is a bad person. I believe just the opposite, and have said so in so many words, in this thread.
As to the argument that nobody else was bothered by it:
- first of all, that's not accurate, as another poster directly after my first post chimed in in apparent agreement. Perhaps I misinterpreted.
- secondly, I don't really care. It doesn't matter to me if other people aren't bothered by what appears to be clear sexist language to me - it bothers me, and I'm going to mention it.
May I also question the consistency of the position of chastising someone on a forum for chastising someone on a forum?
If you think I'm being overly sensitive, say so. If you think this issue is unimportant, that's fine. If you believe that MOO can't evidence unconcious sexism because he's an intelligent, basically good guy, we'll have to agree to disagree.
But this business of telling me that MOO didn't say what he clearly did say - to the point that I have quoted it repeatedly - is not going to get much traction with me personally.
"Strength of numbers is the delight of the timid. The valiant in spirit glory in fighting alone."
- Mahatma Gandhi
Still CoHzy after all these years...
Once again, no one forces you to use Eden under that corset or Bikini 1 under that skirt except you. Every inch of skin shown is an inch you decided to show.
Colour me confused...