Gender Equality?! I LIKE CHEESECAKE!
By
AmazingMOO,
Posted on: 2011-12-02 23:30 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Signed.|
Originally Posted by AmazingMOO
 I am a heterosexual male. I like pretty girls. I like pretty, scantily-clad girls. I like superheroines and villainesses who are both pretty and scantily clad. I frequently, but not always, like the characters I play in City of Heroes to be pretty, scantily-clad superheroines or villainesses. I am all for having more costume options for guys. However, when I look at my closet, I see that Mrs. Moo's section is about 4-5 times as large as mine. I also realize that the vast majority of those clothes, shoes, and accessories have been paid for, at least in terms of cash, by me. I'm COMPLETELY okay with that. It's a GOOD THING! In my mind, women are vastly more attractive than men. They need more clothes to accentuate that attractiveness. I like buying clothes for her. You may not share my opinions or tastes. However, I'm a VIP subscriber, and I will also pay for attractive costumes for my female COH characters. My male characters receive far less attention than my female characters when it comes to costumes. When I make the decision on whether or not to purchase a costume item or pack, I'm not nearly as concerned about the male models as I am the female models. COH Artists and Developers: Please include VASTLY MORE costume pieces for female models than you do male models. More accessories, shoes, boots, and costume items. The more attractive, the better. Scanty is quite alright. Sheer and lacy items are wonderful. Cutouts are awesome. Shiny is fantastic. Because I like Cheesecake, and I'm willing to pay for it! |
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Originally Posted by Hopeling
OK, now go through Mrs. Moo's part of the closet and remove anything that isn't overtly effeminate and sexualized. Long pants? None of those. Jackets? Get rid of them. Are you still happy with her wardrobe? Is she?
I haven't seen anyone arguing against the existence of "cheesecake" costume options. It's when we get ONLY cheesecake options that it becomes a problem. I'm not sure this actually needs its own thread when it's obviously a response to the sentiment in another thread already on the front page... |
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I think they provide a good variety of costuming, even if I don't necessarily like all of it.
That said, as someone who also likes 'cheesecake', I would like more pieces with well-defined cleavage. Sometimes I find myself gravitating towards the witch top just for that reason. |
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Originally Posted by Firemoth
Not to mention, I don't like it that there's massive amounts of cheesecake but hardly any sexy bishi or beefcake options for guys. I play both genders, mostly guys, but I play both genders on this game. I don't like that I only have a few options for faces that I find "sexy", while there are several female faces that I could easily find "sexy". Same with bodies, yes, there is the option for ripped or smooth chest for bare chest, but most of the other tops under tight are completely ripped. I want more options with the smooth muscle, as most of my guys are lean/lithe instead of steroid popping gym thugs (yes, went to extremes, but for some reason that image fit in my head best)
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Originally Posted by Aneko
It's a shame that some people can't see a woman as feminine or attractive if she's conservatively dressed. I can.
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Originally Posted by Kierthos
.... well, there's no riding crop.
WHAT? |
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
ok but heres the thing, as you saw posted in the thread, we didnt get sexy after sexy. out of 16 packs only 5 had unique costume parts for women, some of which could be varying levels of skimpy, OR given the nature of the costume creator, could be entirely modest, your choice. so lets be honest, it was sexy(with tuxedo jackets as well for female characters), then unisex, then unisex, then unisex..down the line a bit, then magic which did sexy with varying levels of coverage, from little to total(witch bare to witch leather respectively), then we got unisex, unisex..till later on we got a steampunk set that had parts that could be sexy if you chose to not put anything underneath them, then unisex, then unisex, on and on. in fact, preceding the angst ridden gunslinger was the fully unisex cot and the halloween pack, which had a exclusive female hair, but otherwise was unisex. so the problem with sexy after sexy is it misrepresents what we actually have been getting, which is a mix of unisex with unique looks when they have significant iconic looks that work.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Here we are, I knew this table got posted somewhere.
So, yes, I edited the post slightly, taking out the Celestial armour because it's not a paid for booster. It's a Vet reward. So, we have a chunk of boosters with specific themes in them at the end. I also don't see the CoT pack as counting, for the simple reason that we knew exactly what was coming in M/F divide. We only had to look at the NPCs to know. There was no surprises or anything like that. So, for complete sets we have Steampunk, then Barbarian and then Gunslinger. Steampunk was mostly fine with a 'feh, no jacket' which was a major complaint from the Magic Pack two entire years prior. Surely they should have noticed that back then? Apparently not. Then came Barbarian, with the first 'This is a bit silly' moment with thigh high, high heeled boots and furry edged skirts and the like. And then we got Gunslinger. With all that entailed. That's three complete, themed and paid for packs in a row. That's not 'misrepresenting' anything, really. Also, Rian, would it seriously kill you to use paragraphs or basic capitalisation? Walloftext is not a pretty thing. |
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| That's three complete, themed and paid for packs in a row. That's not 'misrepresenting' anything, really. |
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Originally Posted by BrandX
You know, I tried pointing this out, and people still kept saying all the packs were cheesecake, and I forgot the alpha and omega sets!
They'd even bring up the Witch Costume, and totally forget there's an option to use it without baring any skin. Basically, all those people may be ruining the chances of getting costume options many others have wanted. :/ Hopefully, the devs will stay the course. However, it would be kinda funny if those complaining get what they want, only to find the bundle doesn't sell well at all, and the devs go "Well, damn. Back to what we were doing." |
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Originally Posted by Captain-Electric
In all seriousness, this is a complaint I've heard frequently in game over the past two years (since I subscribed), and I was kind of bewildered the first time I noticed how ample the smallest allowed size is.
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Originally Posted by MisterMagpie
Too lazy to quote, but being called sexist (saw a lot of stuff about it being a loaded word) isn't actually a huge insult. It's not like you get a big red 'S' branded on your forehead. It's just a description of something that's not exactly permanent. I mean, it's not a great thing to be, don't get me wrong, but it also shouldn't be treated as if it shuts the whole conversation down.
Anyway. Anyway. If they do make a crotch slider, I will be compelled to make Lord Thrustington and I will be banned for life. |
Doom/Batman in 2012
The Resistance has boobs too, and better hair!
The Resistance has boobs too, and better hair!
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It's very easy to believe about Power Girl, she's a badass. I was reading the old Justice League International era comics the other day and it was thumbs up.
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Originally Posted by Daimyo_Shi
Three of the Arguable sexist characters in comics are Catwoman, Power Girl and She-Hulk, all of which I actually like more for their personalities then their bodies. [not that anyone believes me though]
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In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
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It was a relevant general statement, not a direct response to anyone or part of the debate. Your approval is not required.
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Originally Posted by Daimyo_Shi
That is a Straw woman, I can find a woman attractive or unattractive despite her physical body type or her clothing. Does that have anything to do with the mater at hand? No it doesn't.
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
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If I was being dishonest, I wouldn't be stupid enough to tell people of the edits.|
Originally Posted by Daimyo_Shi
So you going to exclude and selectively edit to make your point, that kind of dishonest.
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The Celestial costumes were not a paid for booster pack. They were Vet awards. ERGO, for the sake of an argument about paid for booster packs and their content, they do not count.
Likewise, the CoT 'theme' was never going to be a surprise (except for the surprising lack of certain pieces /tangent) unlike the 'theme' boosters like Steampunk, Science, Mutant and Gunslinger. We knew the exact style of things we were getting, because they were already in game. Therefore what was in it was never really up for questioning.
Do I get to break out the Monty Python gags on Spaniards yet?
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Originally Posted by Daimyo_Shi
That is Complete falsehood! Further the Barbarian is cheesecake for both genders at the same time! Yes that makes a difference, it how the theme goes. You can't just ignore it because it undermines your point.
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Men got chest belts, barbarian fur-thing, metal plate glove things, stompy boots and that kind of thing.
What did women get?
And that was being CONSERVATIVE with the costume options, rather than just settling for the leather thong and bra with chain-loops on it.
The men got the tough and possibly beefcake option. Women got more high heels instead of;
Sexy parts? Check.
Still looks like she could tear your face off? Check and check.
So, please, stop misinterpreting my argument. Thanks.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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yeah I went from "hey im just gonna post once and move on ." to "seriously no one is even going to say they saw this and offer a explanation of some sort ?!!"|
Originally Posted by Mordakar
To introduce a little personal conjecture, it seems to me another big reason the Gunslinger thing blew up was due to the large thread that existed while it was on beta that received no developer attention. What makes me question the release of Gunslinger isn't what it did or did not contain, but rather that the forums had to explode for a red name to finally take notice at what anyone was saying about these costume packs.
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the not getting a respone at all in the beta thread was what made me alot more angry , normally im all "ho hum its the forums . "
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The beauty being that you're allowed to mix and match parts between sets.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
It doesn't undermine my point in the slightest.
Men got chest belts, barbarian fur-thing, metal plate glove things, stompy boots and that kind of thing. What did women get? |
That's not perfect (and it can't be due to CC limitations such as asymmetrical parts, skirt lengths or hair with helmets) but that took me all of two minutes to whip out. Going back to my earlier remarks, people act as though each costume set exists in a bubble or that they HAVE to use Eden tops under their corsets or something. I'm not against women models getting more armor bits and stuff but I don't feel that the complete argument is an honest one.
Edit: In retrospect and I'm not about to reopen CoH, but I should have used some semi-obscuring strappy leg option under her skirt to cover her exposed thighs rather than the default Bikini 1. Again, an option that was open to me even if I didn't think of doing it.
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Except that that costume contains a grand total of ONE piece from the Barbarian pack. At that point, we might as well not have the Barbarian pack for the sake of the argument. |
Originally Posted by Jophiel
The beauty being that you're allowed to mix and match parts between sets.
-snip- That's not perfect (and it can't be due to CC limitations such as asymmetrical parts, skirt lengths or hair with helmets) but that took me all of two minutes to whip out. Going back to my earlier remarks, people act as though each costume set exists in a bubble or that they HAVE to use Eden tops under their corsets or something. I'm not against women models getting more armor bits and stuff but I don't feel that the complete argument is an honest one. |
A themed costume pack is, surprise surprise, supposed to represent a THEME. If that theme is not conveyed properly or fittingly, then we have a problem. All your picture does is prove that argument, not refute it.
And, yes, I am fully aware you can mix and match as much as you like. The POINT is the merit of the pack and items it contains. A pack should be able to stand up on its own, not get by with 'Oh, it's ok if you have X, Y and Z.' That's not a decent excuse. In fact that's not an excuse at all.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Or maybe have a "Barbarian pack" with other themed parts that aren't already included via other sets. If we can already make armored barbarian women, why not a Barbarian pack with different styles of pieces?|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Except that that costume contains a grand total of ONE piece from the Barbarian pack. At that point, we might as well not have the Barbarian pack for the sake of the argument.
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I think you had missed part of my point.
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All one has to do is select the pre-arranged set at the tailor to see what their vision was. In the case of the female "Gunslinger", it's not even appropriate for the time period they're supposedly trying to represent. Even the face they chose to go with it says something, and it's nothing good.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
And, yes, I am fully aware you can mix and match as much as you like. The POINT is the merit of the pack and items it contains. A pack should be able to stand up on its own, not get by with 'Oh, it's ok if you have X, Y and Z.' That's not a decent excuse. In fact that's not an excuse at all.
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
A themed costume pack is, surprise surprise, supposed to represent a THEME. If that theme is not conveyed properly or fittingly, then we have a problem. All your picture does is prove that argument, not refute it.
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What a costume pack is supposed to represent is something we want to buy. I liked the parts in the packs with the frilly woman's clothes. We've only gotten 4 of them total in the history of the game, and while many of them were lumped close together time-wise, we also had to wait YEARS to get our first ones. I think named theme packs are kind of lame and I never try to recreate a "gunslinger" or "barbarian" with them or whatever. I especially never consider the default costume from the Costume Sets drop down as anything but a starting point. That's just my take on it.
I understand why you don't like the parts, but you also need to understand why some of us have something to say when the future of character design is being retooled because of complaints. And, in particular, why some of us who like these parts feel bludgeoned into accepting changes because some people--not you, but people with no reservations about piggybacking on your initial thread--have taken up the issue and reframed it as a moralistic battle in the war against sexism, when the rest of thought we were talking about a miniskirt.
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Well I'm willing to tell those who are wailing 'sexist' (on both sides, because it's been happening reverse) to just sit down and stop bringing sociopolitical issues into pretendy fun-time games. It's stupid.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
What a costume pack is supposed to represent is something we want to buy. I liked the parts in the packs with the frilly woman's clothes. We've only gotten 4 of them total in the history of the game, and while many of them were lumped close together time-wise, we also had to wait YEARS to get our first ones. I think named theme packs are kind of lame and I never try to recreate a "gunslinger" or "barbarian" with them or whatever. I especially never consider the default costume from the Costume Sets drop down as anything but a starting point. That's just my take on it.
I understand why you don't like the parts, but you also need to understand why some of us have something to say when the future of character design is being retooled because of complaints. And, in particular, why some of us who like these parts feel bludgeoned into accepting changes because some people--not you, but no less willing to piggyback on your initial thread--have taken up the issue and reframed it as a moralistic battle in the war against sexism, when the rest of thought we were talking about a miniskirt. |
And I'm pretty sure the Devs aren't going to completely do away with ANYTHING girly-girly. But they might organise it a bit better so that what BOTH types are offered is equal, not two entirely different offerings masquerading as the same thing.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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No no no see if I say that the devs should give scrappers more attention then they have to.
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Originally Posted by Kierthos
Moar luv 4 defenders plz.
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Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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So it is valid because you say so?|
Originally Posted by Aneko
It was a relevant general statement, not a direct response to anyone or part of the debate. Your approval is not required.
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To Techbot Alpha, you don't get to exclude things just because they don't match your point are they out fits or not? Yes they are, then they have to be considered.
Doom/Batman in 2012
The Resistance has boobs too, and better hair!
The Resistance has boobs too, and better hair!
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This forum's insistance on *only* mundane statements is pretty funny. One must be as sober as a judge [moodwise, not speaking of imbibing] at all times, and puctuation must be perfect. But regardless.... that's a pretty low blow. | Rian: Also, you are calling someone on hyperbole? mr. steampunk pack is an "utter failure in design"? Your use of hyperbole is on the exact same level as bad's, your posting styles are actually amazingly similar. |
I'd say I'm much less hostile and dogmatic, but I am sure opinions differ. As for those who want to dress their toons in utter, completely-clothed seriousness since they're mothers now [which is what I took away from someone else's post], go for it. Your toons belong to you, not me.
Just understand that not all of us want to do that. I wear scrubs every day.... don't want to do it in CoX.
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Ehhh. All I'm asking for is as much variety as possible. I don't want an all-cheesecake game. I also don't want an all sober clothes all the time game because that cuts off concepts too. But right now I'm just so tired of the cheesecake. |
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
Just understand that not all of us want to do that. I wear scrubs every day.... don't want to do it in CoX.
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However, have been reminded of the non-cheesecake stuff that came up I managed to forget. Because I'm brilliant. It's like when you're a kid, every day you clean your room and then you leave it one week and you get yelled at for never doing it.
But it has been a pretty strong trend and I believe I'm arguing with myself at this point.
In the room the women come and go
Talking of Michelangelo.
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No, it's valid because it is. Did you come here just to be argumentative?
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Originally Posted by Daimyo_Shi
So it is valid because you say so?
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'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
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Silence!|
Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
This forum's insistance on *only* mundane statements is pretty funny. One must be as sober as a judge [moodwise, not speaking of imbibing] at all times, and puctuation must be perfect. But regardless.... that's a pretty low blow.
I'd say I'm much less hostile and dogmatic, but I am sure opinions differ. As for those who want to dress their toons in utter, completely-clothed seriousness since they're mothers now [which is what I took away from someone else's post], go for it. Your toons belong to you, not me. Just understand that not all of us want to do that. I wear scrubs every day.... don't want to do it in CoX. |
I kill your fleshy *** dead! Meatsack!
I still fail to see why people seem to be insisting on the extremes, when, in the other thread, people are trying to edge it more towards 'A bit of both'.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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*Sigh*|
Originally Posted by Daimyo_Shi
To Techbot Alpha, you don't get to exclude things just because they don't match your point are they out fits or not? Yes they are, then they have to be considered. |
This has nothing to do with 'matching my point'.
The initial thread and the thread that spawned from it were started over Paid. For. Booster. Packs.
Yes, the CoT pack was a paid for booster, so it is partway relevant.
No, the Celestial stuff was NOT a Paid. For. Booster. So no, it is NOT relevant.
And, frankly, I'm done with people throwing strawmen around and shoving **** down my vox that I never said.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I disagree there, at least on technicalities. The Celestial stuff was added expressly to get people to buy up "reward" tokens. If anything, it was probably expected to generate more revenue as a VIP set bought with multiple $15 tokens than as a basic "booster" style costume or else it would have been sold as a booster. The whole F2P conversion was to generate extra money after all.
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That was *A* way to get it. I'm pretty sure that wasn't the intended way to get it since it was a Veteran Reward (and if it was then someone in the team or Marketing needs kneecapping for being that evil a money-grabbing *******)
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Originally Posted by Jophiel
I disagree there, at least on technicalities. The Celestial stuff was added expressly to get people to buy up "reward" tokens. If anything, it was probably expected to generate more revenue as a VIP set bought with multiple $15 tokens than as a basic "booster" style costume or else it would have been sold as a booster. The whole F2P conversion was to generate extra money after all.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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There is a logical flaw there, to accept that then you have to say that |
Originally Posted by Aneko
No, it's valid because it is. Did you come here just to be argumentative?
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Originally Posted by Daimyo_Shi
I can find a woman attractive or unattractive despite her physical body type or her clothing.
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if you can then I will admit you are right but I don't seen the connection.
Doom/Batman in 2012
The Resistance has boobs too, and better hair!
The Resistance has boobs too, and better hair!
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Look at my original statement again. Actually read it this time.|
Originally Posted by Daimyo_Shi
if you can then I will admit you are right but I don't seen the connection.
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I said: "It's a shame that some people can't see a woman as feminine or attractive if she's conservatively dressed. I can."
Why do you feel the need to challenge that?
'I don't like the look of it at all,' said the King: 'however, it may kiss my hand if it likes.'
'I'd rather not,' the Cat remarked.
'Don't be impertinent,' said the King, 'and don't look at me like that!' He got behind Alice as he spoke.
'A cat may look at a king,' said Alice.
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It's because of a little something called the "argumentative theory of reasoning", and it says essentially that humans didn't learn to ask questions and offer answers in order to find universal truths (or to have rational discussions). We did it as a way to gain authority over others (The "I'm right, you're wrong...even if I agree with you"). |
Originally Posted by Aneko
Why do you feel the need to challenge that?
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Basically...We're Not Programmed to Seek "Truth," We're Programmed to "Win"
(Modified from a mixture of an article on Cracked, and my sociology textbook.)
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Of course it was intended. It wasn't "a" veteran reward, it was broken into three or four veteran "rewards". You think it was an accident that the whole F2P/cash shop just happened to roll out with an exclusive and very distinctive VIP costume that required you to be at the top tier (good thing you can buy your way up) and then spend multiple tokens once you get there?|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
That was *A* way to get it. I'm pretty sure that wasn't the intended way to get it since it was a Veteran Reward (and if it was then someone in the team or Marketing needs kneecapping for being that evil a money-grabbing *******)
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Can you name another veteran reward costume set that required four different rewards to collect it all? Boxing set? Sleek tech?
I'm not even arguing right now whether it was right or wrong but there's a very valid argument to be made for including the Celestial set in a discussion of paid costume sets.
And cheesecake is so delicious, but Im more of a chocolate cake guy.
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-