What are you expecting for a solo Incarnate path?
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2011-11-17 20:47 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Actually there is a mechanical reason to NOT do this. I don't know the math offhand and couldn't find the post where Arcannaville described the differences, but technically speaking a 50+1 is significantly weaker than a 51.|
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Just a nitpick. NPCs have always been able to outlevel the players, although level 50 is the top level of the game.
It has always bothered me to encounter level 54 critters when I can only reach level 50, but I understood it from a mechanics viewpoint. Now that critters can be level shifted, it seems better to cap them at level 50 and use level shifts to get them to whatever power level they need to be challenging. |
The most obvious and critical difference I can remember right now being hit points. Adding the T3 alpha does not give you more hp and it doesn't give any to enemies either. But a 54 has quite a bit more HP than a 50. I don't think they want to make existing enemies that much weaker given how much extra damage we can deal these days. Personally, I was surprised to see enemies with level shifts at all.
Note: This is comparable to how a level 50+ IO (using boosters) is not at all the same as a theoretical level 51 except in that case the 50+ is far more powerful than the 51.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Understandable, but my understanding is that AE notwithstanding, critters don't have to follow the same rules we do for hp and similar.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
The most obvious and critical difference I can remember right now being hit points. Adding the T3 alpha does not give you more hp and it doesn't give any to enemies either. But a 54 has quite a bit more HP than a 50. I don't think they want to make existing enemies that much weaker given how much extra damage we can deal these days. Personally, I was surprised to see enemies with level shifts at all.
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But it's no biggie either way.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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I counter your post with my own! *clang*
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Originally Posted by Blackleviathan
All I ask is NO timed missions... Thank you. Those are a pain for me
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Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Personally, I was surprised to see enemies with level shifts at all.
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Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Understandable, but my understanding is that AE notwithstanding, critters don't have to follow the same rules we do for hp and similar.
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I suspect the reason that enemies have started getting level shifts is that the table of NPC stats doesn't go up that high. So if they want an enemy above level 54, they actually can't raise its real level any higher, so they have to use a level shift. They could of course try to extend the table/formula/whatever, but that's probably harder than just tacking on a level shift.
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I'm pretty sure there will be several timed missions - and ambushes - they're both good ways of cranking up the pressure, and are already used a lot in the current Incarnate content.
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Originally Posted by Blackleviathan
All I ask is NO timed missions... Thank you. Those are a pain for me
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Offhand I think there's only one mission in the entire game that has a time limit that's anything but "laughably long."
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Originally Posted by Blackleviathan
All I ask is NO timed missions... Thank you. Those are a pain for me
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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I'm still looking through the recounts, but at this point, what I expect is "not much." Unless I hear anything concrete on the matter which convinces me that solo progression into Incarnates is not frowned upon (people are supposed to run raids, lest raids fall flat), I'm keeping my beard. Which is a shame, because said beard is getting out of hand.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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You profess the ideal that the game should be inclusive of many playstyle preferences and in the same breath tell both the Raid lovers and the soloists to only play the way you like.|
Originally Posted by MrCaptainMan
I am a solo-centric player, but I will fight hard against more content that forces anyone to solo it and leaves no option to team. This game should be inclusive of many playstyle preferences, and in my opinion forved soloing is as bad a design decision as forced teaming. Being able to team up for content does not defeat the point of a solo-possible path at all, in my opinion. I can't understsnd why you would think so.
Eco |
Guess what, this game is big enough to have all playstyles represented. We can have big raids, regular team sized content, and purely solo content.
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I have never heard anyone before ask for "solo only" content (as opposed to content which can be soloed).|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Guess what, this game is big enough to have all playstyles represented. We can have big raids, regular team sized content, and purely solo content.
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Frankly, I don't see the point. It doesn't seem like something that makes sense from a time development perspective. Anything they make for small teams can be run solo, but the converse is not true. If there are more people who prefer to team than would prefer to exclusively solo (which seems likely to me), then building content that can be run by 1-8 is far more efficient.
I find the stand you are taking here incredibly bizarre.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Kinda expecting it to be about 5x slower to accumulate the rewards than an iTrial.
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Why does solo content have to be PURELY solo content? The only purely solo content in the game, that I can think of, is the Moral Choice missions in Praetoria, which is a pretty small category, and also relatively recent. Everything in the game that people usually refer to as "solo content" - normal contacts, tips, repeatable missions, etc - is actually "solo or team".|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
We can have big raids, regular team sized content, and purely solo content.
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Moreover, what advantage is to be gained from making content that specifically cannot be played with a team? You can design the content to be soloed/soloable without excluding the possibility of teaming, and without punishing the player for not teaming. The SSA arcs, for example, are well within the realms of soloability, and provide the same rewards to a solo player, but you can still run them with a team if you want to.
Eh, no harm in wanting solo-only content.
In terms of bragging rights, it would be cool to earn a badge or something by being able to take down Statesman or Lord Recluse mano-a-mano with no possibility of outside help.
I just don't see how it could be balanced.
I suppose you don't have to balance it. If your build can take him down, great, if not, oh well.
Similarly, there could be solo-only missions where you have to do something other than have sheer firepower: defend missions, escorts, stealth missions, etc.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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What ypu don't seem to grasp is that I think that the same content can be open to all three playstyles. Your way, three groups get one arc each to play. My way, three groups get three arcs each to play. There's no hypocrisy here; I like playing arc X solo, you like playing arc X in a 24-man group - under my preferred system, we can both play arc X the way we like.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
You profess the ideal that the game should be inclusive of many playstyle preferences and in the same breath tell both the Raid lovers and the soloists to only play the way you like.
Guess what, this game is big enough to have all playstyles represented. We can have big raids, regular team sized content, and purely solo content. |
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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Part of me is starting to suspect Forbin's actually squarely in the 'no to soloists' camp, and is professing this odd 'dog in the manger' take on a solo-centric playstyle in order to paint soloists a bad picture.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I have never heard anyone before ask for "solo only" content (as opposed to content which can be soloed).
Frankly, I don't see the point. It doesn't seem like something that makes sense from a time development perspective. Anything they make for small teams can be run solo, but the converse is not true. If there are more people who prefer to team than would prefer to exclusively solo (which seems likely to me), then building content that can be run by 1-8 is far more efficient. I find the stand you are taking here incredibly bizarre. |
Even if he's being truthful, he's in a minority of one as far as I'm aware in wanting content specifically designed to have a maximum start requirement of 1.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
[The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."
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You understand that the last two can be the same, right? You can have content that is perfectly soloable but still allows a team to attempt it. See: the rest of the damn game.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
You profess the ideal that the game should be inclusive of many playstyle preferences and in the same breath tell both the Raid lovers and the soloists to only play the way you like.
Guess what, this game is big enough to have all playstyles represented. We can have big raids, regular team sized content, and purely solo content. |
You're being bizarrely obstinate here and I'm not sure why.
P.S. I'm also a mostly-solo player (no objection to TFs and trials, but anything else I usually play solo).
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
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I wouldn't mind a few solo only missions, maybe 1 for each AT type or Origin (per side of the pond of course). Some unique lore and a badge or something. |
Originally Posted by Kitsune9tails
Eh, no harm in wanting solo-only content.
In terms of bragging rights, it would be cool to earn a badge or something by being able to take down Statesman or Lord Recluse mano-a-mano with no possibility of outside help. I just don't see how it could be balanced. I suppose you don't have to balance it. If your build can take him down, great, if not, oh well. Similarly, there could be solo-only missions where you have to do something other than have sheer firepower: defend missions, escorts, stealth missions, etc. |
But yeah, in general, the rest of the game's design is fine, being able to play solo or in small teams.
Sometimes I just want to "put the shoe on the other foot," as it were, and demand solo-only content just to troll the "This is an MMO - ya hafsta team!" people... But it's really not worth it.
Content that CAN be soloed by at least most decent builds, but can also be done on a team with scaling difficulty, is probably ideal. It satisfies the most people and punishes the fewest.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I hope it is very hard. Should also require Alpha Slot like the Tin Mage and Apex TFs.
Paragonian Knights
Justice Company
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There's literally no reason "solo content" has to be "solo only content." We have ATs who would rather not have to solo and would want to take some friends along. We even have players who just like doing that more even if they have the ability to solo. But there are people (like me) who don't like or can't handle the large raids of 16-24 people and would rather avoid it.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Guess what, this game is big enough to have all playstyles represented. We can have big raids, regular team sized content, and purely solo content.
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From a development standpoint, "solo only" is limiting and unnecessary. Literally the same number of solo players can run an arc whether it's solo only or teaming optional. But as soon as you want some other people to join you, you can't. Why? Because it's solo-oriented? It still can be. So what's the logic in disabling teaming in this content exactly? What do you gain by excluding people?
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Originally Posted by Grae Knight
I hope it is very hard. Should also require Alpha Slot like the Tin Mage and Apex TFs.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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On the one hand, I agree with you. Solo content that most people (say... ME!) can't solo is "solo content" in name only, and is actually just as bad as more raids.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't; logically if it's supposed to be a solo path, requiring you to already be an incarnate defeats the purpose of that.
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On the other hand, soloable Incarnate content should still have some kind of progression, such that the Incarnate powers we earn are relevant. Just more level 50 content, but with an Incarnate storyline might be good for a while, but once we get level shifts (I'm assuming we'll be able to...) and fancy powers, this content would need to scale up with us so that our progress is meaningful.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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It might require the Alpha slot, as that's already a solo/small team arc - but it's quite likely that they'll design DA to match the design of the Trials, which would mean non-Incarnate 50s being allowed in to open their Alpha there instead of with Mender Ramiel.
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Originally Posted by Grae Knight
I hope it is very hard. Should also require Alpha Slot like the Tin Mage and Apex TFs.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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It's also a drain on mapserver resources, going by the way they redeigned Atlas to require fewer mission instances - so they'd probably want to avoid a situation where like 30 players could be in DA, but all 30 were on separate mission instances.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
From a development standpoint, "solo only" is limiting and unnecessary.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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which is still way faster than the current solo method |
Originally Posted by SupaFreak
Kinda expecting it to be about 5x slower to accumulate the rewards than an iTrial.
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@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Hmmm...|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It's also a drain on mapserver resources, going by the way they redeigned Atlas to require fewer mission instances - so they'd probably want to avoid a situation where like 30 players could be in DA, but all 30 were on separate mission instances.
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What do you think about solo-only content with a special badge (like a duel with Recluse) that was time limited; say once per character per 20 hours?
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
so·lo/ˈsōlō/
Verb:
1. Perform something unaccompanied, in particular.
Noun:
2. A thing done by one person unaccompanied, in particular.
Adjective:
3.For or done by one person alone; unaccompanied: "a solo album".
Synonyms:
single - solitary - sole
Allowing people to team defeats the purpose of it being a solo path. If people want to team up and do Incarnate content they can do the trials which were intended to be done with team mates.
Eco
MArcs:
The Echo, Arc ID 1688 (5mish, easy, drama)
The Audition, Arc ID 221240 (6 mish, complex mech, comedy)
Storming Citadel, Arc ID 379488 (lowbie, 1mish, 10-min timed)